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Fellow Sexuals

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Sally

I often feel like I should have been born in New York City, because I'm so blunt in saying what I feel/think.  In the West Coast of America, you just don't do that.  (Except a little bit in LA.)  And the diversity of cultures in America is really a thing; there are regions, and states, and areas within states, and then there's all the family cultures and cultures of immigrants.  It's amazing anyone can talk to anyone else.  

 

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CBC
On 2/19/2019 at 2:55 PM, Telecaster68 said:

Blimey. And I thought you Canadians were all so nice

All?! Christ almighty, it's like you haven't even met me.

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Telecaster68

You're a sweetie really. 

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CBC

That part's supposed to be a secret. 

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Philip027
On 2/19/2019 at 5:57 PM, Serran said:

Of course, we have known kind of inside joke responses like "How are you feeling?" "Fine" - we both know fine means not OK, cause it's a joke that women always say fine (so playing into the gender stereotype) when something is wrong. So, we try to avoid fine when we actually are fine.

This sort of shit has always pissed me the hell off, when people wouldn't believe that I really was feeling fine and were seemingly insistent on creating a problem where none existed.  Okay then, I'm not fine anymore, because you're getting on my fucking nerves with asking me a question and not accepting the answer I give...

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Telecaster68

Maybe there was something in your body language or other context that seemed to be contradicting your words. 

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ryn2
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Maybe there was something in your body language or other context that seemed to be contradicting your words. 

Sometimes, too, people have a hard time believing someone is truly fine with something *they* personally would not and could not be fine with.

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Philip027
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Maybe there was something in your body language or other context that seemed to be contradicting your words. 

I think spoken word should be trusted over potentially vague elements like body language.

 

Just one more reason for me to favor online communication, I guess.

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Telecaster68
15 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I think spoken word should be trusted over potentially vague elements like body language.

 

Just one more reason for me to favor online communication, I guess.

Don't you think it's easier to lie with your words than your body? 

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ryn2
29 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Don't you think it's easier to lie with your words than your body? 

I think that depends on both the speaker/actor and the listener/audience.

 

Some people are very good at reading for tells.  Others either miss them entirely or pick up on things that aren’t there/don’t apply.

 

Likewise, some people are good at hiding their obvious tells.  Others may not be, but exist in a baseline - they’re anxious about many things, frustrated about many things, excited about many things - that makes it hard to distinguish lying-related body language/actions/etc. from all the background noise.

 

I always consider lying similar to theft... a dedicated professional is going to succeed.  Any measures you take to protect yourself only address the amateurs.  Doesn’t make such measures not worthwhile, but you still have to recognize they’re limited.

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Philip027
54 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Don't you think it's easier to lie with your words than your body? 

I don't see what the point of someone asking me a question is if they're not going to trust the verbal response.  Why not just assume the answer and avoid wasting both of our time with needless chatter?

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Telecaster68

Because mostly communication uses more than the bare words.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Philip027 said:

I don't see what the point of someone asking me a question is if they're not going to trust the verbal response.  Why not just assume the answer and avoid wasting both of our time with needless chatter?

Well, there are two answers there depending on the situation.  If the person asking considers you untrustworthy (and/or doesn’t really care what you think) then asking anyway pretty much is needless chatter.

 

However, if that’s not the case, the person asking might expect to trust your answer... until they see you give it.  Then something in the way you give the answer might call your honesty (or your self-perception; you might not be lying on purpose) into question.

 

It gets complicated if your delivery is often a bit “off,” and/or if you are distracted or anxious about something that has nothing to do with the question...

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Philip027
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Because mostly communication uses more than the bare words.

Still say that if you're already going to decide for the other person what they really meant to say and base it on their hand motions or whatever, I don't see the point of posing the question in the first place.  This isn't "communication", it's assumption.  You've clearly already decided what their answer "should" be.

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Telecaster68
Just now, Philip027 said:

Still say that if you're already going to decide for the other person what they really meant to say and base it on their hand motions or whatever, I don't see the point of posing the question in the first place.  This isn't "communication", it's assumption.  You've clearly already decided what their answer "should" be.

Not at all.

 

If someone says 'Fine!' in an angry tone of voice while frowning, and previous conversations have indicated they generally don't think whatever it is, is fine, then you're just using all available data in deciding what they're saying.

 

You may not like that they're not being verbally direct, but it will get you a better read on the situation.

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ryn2

In that scenario I would argue that you should behave as though it actually *is* fine because otherwise you are just teaching them they can say and do whatever they want and still get you to “mind-read” for them... but maybe this gets back into what’s expected/polite some places is considered childish and manipulative in other places.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

In that scenario I would argue that you should behave as though it actually *is* fine because otherwise you are just teaching them they can say and do whatever they want and still get you to “mind-read” for them... but maybe this gets back into what’s expected/polite some places is considered childish and manipulative in other places.

Is it your job to teach them anything? You're presuming your way of 'uninflected words only' is superior, and I'd say it isn't, in many ways.

 

ETA:

 

Not to mention you're swimming against the stream of hundreds of thousands of years of human communication, intuitive interpretation of body language (not mind-reading), and the general expectation that inflection and context should be taken into account.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Is it your job to teach them anything? You're presuming your way of 'uninflected words only' is superior, and I'd say it isn't, in many ways.

It’s your “job” (responsibility) to teach them how you are willing to be treated.

 

So, I guess the question is really “does their indirect way of handling things bother you?”  If it doesn’t, then there’s no reason to let them know it’s not okay.

 

If it does bother you that they’re saying one thing and evidently meaning another, then you need to show/teach them it’s not a game you are willing to play.

 

Letting it continue while complaining about how much it sucks (in general, I mean - not talking about anything you’ve said) doesn’t accomplish anything.

 

E.g., suppose someone is always late and that frustrates you.  Grumbling about it but allowing it is teaching them it’s actually okay with you.  Leaving when you said you were going to even though they aren’t there, on the other hand, shows you actually aren’t okay with it.

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ryn2

It’s not about superior or inferior.  It’s more about boundaries.  If you don’t want your partner to yell at you, you leave the conversation when yelling starts.  If you don’t want to be pouted into doing things you don’t want to do, you ignore pouting.  Etc.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

It’s your “job” (responsibility) to teach them how you are willing to be treated.

 

So, I guess the question is really “does their indirect way of handling things bother you?”  If it doesn’t, then there’s no reason to let them know it’s not okay.

 

If it does bother you that they’re saying one thing and evidently meaning another, then you need to show/teach them it’s not a game you are willing to play.

 

Letting it continue while complaining about how much it sucks (in general, I mean - not talking about anything you’ve said) doesn’t accomplish anything.

 

E.g., suppose someone is always late and that frustrates you.  Grumbling about it but allowing it is teaching them it’s actually okay with you.  Leaving when you said you were going to even though they aren’t there, on the other hand, shows you actually aren’t okay with it.

I agree. But that wasn't the initial point at issue. Philip's point was that unless everything is stated explicitly in words, nobody has any onus on them to understand more than those direct words at face value.

 

Two problems with that: firstly, it's just not how the world works, so martyred standing on principles is just going to work out harder for the martyr than figuring out body language, subtext etc; and secondly, 'Fine', in that context actually tells you a load more, and way more efficiently, and I'd argue at a deeper, more emotional level, than a lengthy but direct conversation. One word, in context, will communicate that this person disagrees with you, they're pissed off at you, they don't want to talk about it any more but they would like you to think about it and come back to it later, and let's just move on for now. The listener's response can be some combination of pushing to talk about it now, or taking the speaker at their word and leaving, and/or coming back to it when they've both calmed down.

 

Also - we're not computers; we don't need everything in binaries. Trying to figure each other out on partial data is just what humans do because it was a survival skill on the plains of Africa.

 

(Also, this 'mind-reading' thing annoys the fuck out of me. It's not mindreading, in the sense of asking the impossible; it's just saying most people can and do routinely grasp a broad idea of what's going on in someone else's head without being explicitly told by them. We all do it, all the time, and we do it well. Not perfectly, and not necessarily in detail, and generally with a degree of ambiguity but what's being asked isn't some arcane bit of magick - it's simply part of everyday human interaction, for most people).

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Telecaster68
6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It’s not about superior or inferior.  It’s more about boundaries.  If you don’t want your partner to yell at you, you leave the conversation when yelling starts.  If you don’t want to be pouted into doing things you don’t want to do, you ignore pouting.  Etc.

You're insisting the onus is on them to be verbally explicit. They want you to read their body language, tone of voice, factor in context. Both are legitimate ways to communicate, and you're just dismissing their version because it doesn't conform to yours.

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Serran
5 hours ago, Philip027 said:

This sort of shit has always pissed me the hell off, when people wouldn't believe that I really was feeling fine and were seemingly insistent on creating a problem where none existed.  Okay then, I'm not fine anymore, because you're getting on my fucking nerves with asking me a question and not accepting the answer I give...

Well, its not a mutually understood inside joke for you and those people either. 😛 If we want to make it a clear "not a joke", we have an agreement that promise means cant dodge / cover / lie so promise means take me at my word. 

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ryn2
15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

martyred standing on principles is just going to work out harder for the martyr than figuring out body language, subtext etc

That depends on how easily the “martyr” can do all that.  For some people it’s not easy.

 

16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

this 'mind-reading' thing annoys the fuck out of me.

Therapists here routinely say “You can’t expect people to know what you want if you don’t tell them.  They’re not mind-readers.”

 

If there’s another term for “expecting others to intuit your thoughts from your behaviors” that works better for you, I’m happy to use it instead.

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ryn2
18 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You're insisting the onus is on them to be verbally explicit. They want you to read their body language, tone of voice, factor in context. Both are legitimate ways to communicate, and you're just dismissing their version because it doesn't conform to yours.

Again, it only applies if it’s a problem.  If you enjoy, or are at least fine with, picking someone’s meaning out of their actions - and they are fine with being interpreted that way - it’s not an issue.

 

If it’s something that doesn’t work for you, pretending it does won’t actually solve the problem.

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Philip027
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

If someone says 'Fine!' in an angry tone of voice while frowning, and previous conversations have indicated they generally don't think whatever it is, is fine, then you're just using all available data in deciding what they're saying.

That's an exaggeration and obvious sarcasm.  I have said "fine" often before in a perfectly normal, unsarcastic, unangry tone of voice and have still encountered disbelief, as if the term inherently means "not actually fine" -- which is, you have to admit, completely ridiculous and definitely not fine.

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alibali

If you're talking about communication in general yep people use all sorts of ways to communicate some of which are really quite damaging to people who want to communicate with trust and honesty. There is nothing like saying what you really mean to people. "Fine" in the above contexts can be sarcastic, passive aggressive, manipulative etc. It can also really mean Fine too. I would rather be silent than waste my time by saying positive things in a negative way.

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Traveler40
On 2/26/2019 at 12:47 AM, alibali said:

 

If you're talking about communication in general yep people use all sorts of ways to communicate some of which are really quite damaging to people who want to communicate with trust and honesty.

 

I have a habit of telling it like it is and don’t lie as a general rule, yet if someone angers me enough (my Dad in particular) I somewhat enjoy “keeping it real”. With that said, brutal honesty can be quite mean. Many things are better left unsaid and language can cut like a knife. While I realize this, I can’t help but push back when boxed in. Though not upset per se, I do get laser focused and hyper logical which isn’t kind at times.

 

Not going for the jugular when trapped - working on it!

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Traveler40
On 2/19/2019 at 5:22 PM, Sally said:

It's amazing anyone can talk to anyone else.  

This reminded me of a moment while living abroad in my youth and 4 of us were at a bar.

 

Australian #1: Oh yeah, he’s hilarious in a dicky!

Me: 😳

Australian #2: Um, you know, trunks?

Me: 🤔

Canadian: Maybe you just say swimming suit!?!

Me: 💡. Ahhhh! Got it!

 

A few beers later, and I’m not sure anyone was even that clear.  I kept asking why one guy was so angry? I couldn’t understand as he kept saying he was pissed. 🤷🏻‍♀️

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Serran
11 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

This reminded me of a moment while living abroad in my youth and 4 of us were at a bar.

 

Australian #1: Oh yeah, he’s hilarious in a dicky!

Me: 😳

Australian #2: Um, you know, trunks?

Me: 🤔

Canadian: Maybe you just say swimming suit!?!

Me: 💡. Ahhhh! Got it!

 

A few beers later, and I’m not sure anyone was even that clear.  I kept asking why one guy was so angry? I couldn’t understand as he kept saying he was pissed. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I've had a lot of those moments. 

 

"I need my thongs for the beach"

(American who has never heard that word applied anywhere but to thong underwear etc) "Ok..."

*comes out with flip flops, not a skimpy bathing suit*

 

Yelled, at a minor, in a public store :

 

"YOU DON'T NEED TO BUY RUBBERS, LETS GO"

*cue the American laughing and being called a perv*

 

And there was something I said that I can't even remember what it was, that my wife told me was a naughty word in the UK and it's a perfectly innocent one here. So, I looked at her funny when she got surprised I said it ( I don't swear, so she gets surprised when I say naughty words). 

 

Not to mention over here, it's perfectly OK to hold up two fingers... while I learned in the UK it's like giving the middle finger when I first visited over there. 

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