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Telecaster68

It is, but easy enough to understand their feet get cut without them, surely?

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ryn2
25 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And then there's the lack of sex.

And is the lack of sex better, or worse, to experience than the presence of unwanted sex?

 

We don’t know.  Like I said, the people who probably stand the best chance of seeing both sides are sexuals who have been in relationships that involved repulsion-level unwanted sex.

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ryn2
21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is, but easy enough to understand their feet get cut without them, surely?

Only once you see the bleeding.

 

I never wore shoes unless forced, until a medical condition interfered.  Now that I’ve experienced both sides I see what the “wimps” were feeling... but I also know what it was like to not be one and to think they were just wimpy.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

And is the lack of sex better, or worse, to experience than the presence of unwanted sex?

I assume the presence of unwanted sex is worse, but that's a side issue. The issue is simply accepting the objective reality that sex isn't happening, and that's what the asexual partner wants. Everything else, on both sides, is subjective.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Only once you see the bleeding.

 

I never wore shoes unless forced, until a medical condition interfered.  Now that I’ve experienced both sides I see what the “wimps” were feeling... but I also know what it was like to not be one and to think they were just wimpy.

And presumably understand that previously, you were unfairly dismissing their pain because you didn't get it. So such a thing is possible.

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I assume the presence of unwanted sex is worse, but that's a side issue. The issue is simply accepting the objective reality that sex isn't happening, and that's what the asexual partner wants. Everything else, on both sides, is subjective.

It’s all similarly subjective, though.  It doesn’t happen in a vacuum.  Whether the couple has sex or not for both of them (differently) changes how they feel about each other, how they feel about themselves, how safe they feel, how well they feel, etc.  All of that in turn changes how they interact.  You can’t just separate out “had sex” or “had no sex” from all of that because what people actually want involves the whole framework too.

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ryn2
8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And presumably understand that previously, you were unfairly dismissing their pain because you didn't get it. So such a thing is possible.

Yes, but I also see that the wimpy people had no understanding of my experience and how different it was from theirs either.

 

It was only possible because I legitimately experienced both sides physically.

 

And I still despise and resent wearing shoes, so there’s an emotional component there too.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

 You can’t just separate out “had sex” or “had no sex” from all of that because what people actually want involves the whole framework too.

But it has constituent parts, and the more of those that you want which are present the better, and the fewer that you don't like, the better. I'm not saying things are discrete and modular, but they do aggregate.

 

You can't really separate conversation out from other issues entirely, but that doesn't mean its presence/absence doesn't affect things in its own right. If one of the things you value in a relationship is witty banter, and your partner just thinks it's pointless wittering, then yes, it affects bonding, etc. But you also miss the banter in its own right, and she'll be less stressed for not having to deal with it.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Yes, but I also see that the wimpy people had no understanding of my experience and how different it was from theirs either.

As an inveterate shoe wearer, I have to say I think I'd find it pretty easy to grasp that you not wearing them meant they weren't important to you and your feet were probably super tough.

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ryn2
43 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

As an inveterate shoe wearer, I have to say I think I'd find it pretty easy to grasp that you not wearing them meant they weren't important to you and your feet were probably super tough.

For me it was a lifelong thing, though, with nothing to compare it to.  It never crossed my mind that my feet were tougher beyond what I trained them to be able to do on purpose.  So, to me, it looked like something anyone could train themselves to do.

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ryn2
47 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

she'll be less stressed for not having to deal with it.

And my point was “not for very long if it means you stop interacting with her at all.”

 

My situation may be a bit unique in that I didn’t put an active kibosh on sex.  I just didn’t push for more when it gradually stopped on its own.  So maybe I’m not getting the whole “immediate relief” thing as all

I have is a long look back to go by.

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uhtred
3 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

Because it doesn't work like that. At some point, psychology just needs to be accepted even if to you it sounds counterintuitive. 

 

All I can say is that sometimes you just can't. At first it's easy enough to have sex with someone you don't want to have sex with... For it to just be an activity... but that fades. I cannot explain it but I've had enough sexual relationships with men to understand on a gut level how it feels. Fun until it starts to erode your sense of safety and self. 

 

All I can say is that you just can't. Even if you know it'll make things easier. Even if you know it should be easy. You just can't. 

 

If that wasn't true, orientation would be meaningless. 

 

I think that you either need to put yourself in a situation where you have to force yourself to have sex even though it causes significant distress, or you need to accept that it is not a choice in any way. It sounds dumb but it's just not. It's no more a choice to get up and run out of the bedroom as it is for the sexual to cry when that rejection hits. It just is. You can try your best to moderate behavior but after awhile that moderation starts feeling like self abuse. 

The change with time is interesting.  I can imagine not wanting sex:  I"m a straight male, so I have no desire for sex even with my closest male friend.  What is difficult for me to imagine is finding sex with them to be OK bu then having it become more difficult to tolerate over time. 

 

I can imagine losing interest in a female sexual partner - but for me at most that would cause sex to go from desirable to neutral. 

 

What you describe is something I didn't know existed.  Its also a potential source of relationship problems because an ace person might go along with sex for a while, but then stop - leading to what their sexual partner would interpret as a dishonest "bait and switch" 

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ryn2
17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Its also a potential source of relationship problems because an ace person might go along with sex for a while, but then stop - leading to what their sexual partner would interpret as a dishonest "bait and switch" 

Absolutely.  You see a lot of discussions along those lines here.

 

17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I can imagine losing interest in a female sexual partner - but for me at most that would cause sex to go from desirable to neutral. 

If once you had lost interest you kept feeling obligated to have sex with her regularly anyway, and to pretend for her sake that it was still awesome, would that potentially cause sex to fall below neutral?

 

17 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I"m a straight male, so I have no desire for sex even with my closest male friend.  What is difficult for me to imagine is finding sex with them to be OK bu then having it become more difficult to tolerate over time. 

I’m heteroromantic, so I don’t fall in love with other women.  I also find the idea of (myself) having sex with women repulsive.  Those two things combine to make it highly unlikely that I would ever be infatuated/experience NRE with a woman or have sex with a woman.

 

By contrast I do fall in love with men, and experience infatuation/NRE.  Initially I want to share every possible experience with them, be around them as much as possible, and encourage them to reciprocate.  There also tends to be going out for dinner and drinks involved.  So, there has always been a high likelihood of my having sex with them.

 

Now that I know about asexuality and about what’s seen as baiting and switching my intent - if I ever reenter the market - is to be much more careful.  I didn’t realize anything was amiss before.

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alibali
1 hour ago, uhtred said:

The change with time is interesting.  I can imagine not wanting sex:  I"m a straight male, so I have no desire for sex even with my closest male friend.  What is difficult for me to imagine is finding sex with them to be OK 

What is interesting is that most of the sexuals here tend to have a particular orientation whether that is hetero or homosexual so don't desire the opposite to what they desire but don't see that as unusual.  But do see asexuality as unusual. 

 

I don't think I ever found sex to be ok. Tolerable sometimes and I felt it was a normal thing to do therefore pressurised myself into it. As I got older I felt it was too much of an imposition and invasion of me personally.

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Apostle

x

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xstatic ☆゚°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

I've sometimes wondered if my orientation as bi/poly is why my relationship with an ace seems easier for me than what I've seen from reading experiences of others.  

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ryn2
39 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Honest divulgence on sexual preferences from asexuals prior to forming a relationship should be foremost on their minds if the person of their interest is sexual.

By far the majority of the aces posting regularly here appear to agree with this.  However, it is dependent on the ace partner knowing they’re ace beforehand and - for many of the mixed relationships discussed here - that often isn’t the case.

 

I haven’t seen a lot of cases here where someone discovered they were ace in one relationship and plans to keep it a secret in future ones.

 

46 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Contrary to some posts I have seen, the sexual/asexual relationship is far greater in the population that one might suppose. 

If aces are 1% of the population (and consider that homosexual

people are estimated at 3-4% of the population when you decide whether or not that seems low), and every ace is in a mixed relationship (not true), mixed ace/sexual relationships are a small percentage of all relationships.  There are probably many more relationships where two sexual people have mismatched libidos and/or have lost interest in one another (unilaterally or all around) sexually over time.

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alibali
40 minutes ago, Apostle said:

All of the previous comments and counter comments in these posts have led me to the following conclusion:

 

Honest divulgence on sexual preferences from asexuals prior to forming a relationship should be foremost on their minds if the person of their interest is sexual. Knowing this, the sexual then has the option of preventing subsequent pain and anguish by terminating the forming relationship if they choose to do so.

As a sexual, I was not given this option and by the time my relationship had fully formed and we had a family, it was too late.

 

I believe what many asexuals do not understand is the mental pain it causes to sexuals. It's a continual reminder of basic human sexual nature that is denied them. Whilst it is not fair to castigate anyone who is not straight sexual as it is not their fault that they are different, the root cause of sexual/asexual relationship downfalls is the fact that sexuals feel badly let down by not knowing their partners' sexuality at the start. 

 

Contrary to some posts I have seen, the sexual/asexual relationship is far greater in the population that one might suppose. May it cease to be in the future.

 

RIP sexual/asexual relationships😶

The only absolutely honest divulgence of preferences is likely to be on a one night stand or when paying for it. For every other relationship there is likely to be some kind of emotional investment sufficient to be able to trust someone enough to be able to say to them, I really like you, I want our relationship to go further but I am not interested in sex....ever.  Can you imagine having the faith in someone and risking your own burgeoning feelings to say that to a complete stranger?? I can't. I find it difficult to "admit" it to my closest friends with whom sex is not on the agenda.

 

And frankly given the disbelief and the way they have viewed it as a bit abnormal on the part of the friends I have told, I wouldn't want to risk saying it to someone I wanted to see more and more of.  So it's a good job I am not going to even bother having a relationship with anyone.

 

I do get that sexuals on this thread feel betrayed. 

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Telecaster68

Ali...

 

I'd imagine it would take about the same amount of courage and trust as making a sexual move on someone in the first place - in both cases someone's making themselves vulnerable and risking rejection and ridicule. I'd also say that's the point where asexuals should make clear that they're not interested in sex, even if they don't know the term 'asexual'.

 

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ryn2
50 minutes ago, ☆゚°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ said:

I've sometimes wondered if my orientation as bi/poly is why my relationship with an ace seems easier for me than what I've seen from reading experiences of others.  

It easily could be, because you’re less likely to expect that any one partner will help ensure all your key needs are met.

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uhtred
1 hour ago, Apostle said:

All of the previous comments and counter comments in these posts have led me to the following conclusion:

 

Honest divulgence on sexual preferences from asexuals prior to forming a relationship should be foremost on their minds if the person of their interest is sexual. Knowing this, the sexual then has the option of preventing subsequent pain and anguish by terminating the forming relationship if they choose to do so.

As a sexual, I was not given this option and by the time my relationship had fully formed and we had a family, it was too late.

 

I believe what many asexuals do not understand is the mental pain it causes to sexuals. It's a continual reminder of basic human sexual nature that is denied them. Whilst it is not fair to castigate anyone who is not straight sexual as it is not their fault that they are different, the root cause of sexual/asexual relationship downfalls is the fact that sexuals feel badly let down by not knowing their partners' sexuality at the start. 

 

Contrary to some posts I have seen, the sexual/asexual relationship is far greater in the population that one might suppose. May it cease to be in the future.

 

RIP sexual/asexual relationships😶

I think divulging ones sexual interest / behavior / orientation early would be very helpful, but there is still significant social pressure against it.  Some people don't believe sex before marriage is OK at all. Many feel that early dates should not be about sex.  

 

Also, I think asexuality is not widely recognized yet.  I believe that there are many asexuals who do not realize that they are asexual.  They just feel that they haven't met the right  person yet, or that they will desire sex if they find someone that they love.  I suspect my wife is in that category - she knows that she isn't generally sexually attracted to me, but I think is genuinely confused as to why.  She feels she *should* be, but isn't. 

 

 

 

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'd also say that's the point where asexuals should make clear that they're not interested in sex, even if they don't know the term 'asexual'.

What I meant in my post above wasn’t about the term asexual - it was about knowing prior to entering a relationship that one’s feelings about sex are unusual or noteworthy in some way.

 

Like, I know that now and would be extremely hesitant to enter into another relationship.  Ali doesn’t plan to enter another relationship.  Many of the ace posters here either don’t plan to enter into future relationships or don’t intend to keep their orientation/their atypical feelings towards sex secret going forward.

 

Usually when I see someone here advocating it, it’s a poster who has not yet been in a mixed relationship and is underestimating potential issues.  I see the same thing occasionally from a sexual person considering pursuing (or very earling in) a relationship with an ace person.

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ryn2

When I was younger I legitimately thought I was really into sex and, if asked (or if volunteering info), would have quite honestly said exactly that.  It wasn’t until I came here that I started to realize my interest in - and what I take away from

and am able to bring to - sex is vastly different than that of the sexuals posting here.

 

The classic picture of an asexual person as someone who has zero interest in sex at all and knows it from the start does not fit everyone.  Most of the people it does fit who post here are also aromantic and lifelong single.  The big exception seems to be people whose religion/culture/family expectations forbid premarital sex.

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alibali
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Ali...

 

I'd imagine it would take about the same amount of courage and trust as making a sexual move on someone in the first place - in both cases someone's making themselves vulnerable and risking rejection and ridicule. I'd also say that's the point where asexuals should make clear that they're not interested in sex, even if they don't know the term 'asexual'.

 

When I was young I didn't even know I wasn't interested in sex because I was interested in sex....just not for the reasons sexuals are interested in sex. I enjoyed the closeness, I enjoyed the person I was with, I joined in and I didn't know that there was a particular way to feel desire that I was lacking.

 

So I couldn't have answered that question in any way other than how I did.  That i enjoyed it as above, but I wasn't that interested.  That was correct at the time.

 

I think people do change as they get older so that what was previously tolerable ceases to be. I reckon it is to do with the psychology of aging.  When young you will try all sorts, you find it easier to tolerate discomfort, you are still discovering yourself and others and fitting in.

 

Ten, twenty, thirty years on you tend to become more comfortable with yourself, and less likely to tolerate discomfort. That's often why there are so many mid life crises.  People start seeing they have less time left.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, alibali said:

When I was young I didn't even know I wasn't interested in sex because I was interested in sex....just not for the reasons sexuals are interested in sex.

Which is (obviously) fine. You had nothing to declare as it were, and you're right about aging, I think.

 

Sexuals aren't all interested in sex for the same reasons, and it'll vary in one sexual person from situation to situation and partner to partner, so I'm not surprised it took a while to figure out. I was more thinking of someone who was aware their attitude to sex and interest in it seemed different to almost everyone else's, so they could be expected to mention this when sex started to become part of a relationship, just lke for instance, if I was friendly with a bloke who (it turns out) was gay and made a pass at me, I would say something about being straight; maybe I might be considering having sex with him anyway, but I wouldn't want him pursuing a relationship with me thinking I was gay.

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alibali

I would imagine it is easier to recognise a positive orientation than a negative or certainly indifferent one. I think most people would know they identify as gay or straight. May also he harder to identify as bi  or pan or poly as well. It's very complex isn't it.

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xstatic ☆゚°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
24 minutes ago, alibali said:

I would imagine it is easier to recognise a positive orientation than a negative or certainly indifferent one. I think most people would know they identify as gay or straight. May also he harder to identify as bi  or pan or poly as well. It's very complex isn't it.

Probably so.  Also, I help run a group for bisexuals/pansexuals and most of the people there figured their orientation out pretty young.  Like, pre-teen to teen young.  Though, my group is pretty thirsty, so maybe I've just been gathering up all of the hypersexuals.  😂

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festiff
1 hour ago, alibali said:

I would imagine it is easier to recognise a positive orientation than a negative or certainly indifferent one. I think most people would know they identify as gay or straight. May also he harder to identify as bi  or pan or poly as well. It's very complex isn't it.

I think so too. If I was asked during teenage/hound adult years, I'd have said heterosexual as my orientation but it was only around 23 that I came to identify as asexual

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ryn2
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I was more thinking of someone who was aware their attitude to sex and interest in it seemed different to almost everyone else's, so they could be expected to mention this when sex started to become part of a relationship

At least based on the older posters here (the ones who predate asexuality awareness’ starting to get some public traction), I’m not sure there are a lot of people out there who *do* know they vary from typical in this way (at least unless they are actively repulsed by all things sexual).  You have to have really serious, detailed conversations about not just sex but the whole emotional frame behind it, with people who recognize that asexuality (not the name, the concept) exists and isn’t just a treatable problem, before you start to see the difference.

 

Once the lightbulb has come on past discussions and events look different in hindsight.

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ryn2

(and I’m sure the lens of my own experience colors my view, but I’ve seen numerous other people posting/describing similar-sounding experiences)

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