I'm sexual but...

[Traveler40]

8 hours ago, iff said:

It seems long for goldfish to live 5 years

Well, I’d have thought so too! Apparently, if you give those little suckers the proper environment, they can live upwards of 25-30 years.

 

I’m a believer in “if you know better, do better”, so we gave them the proper environment. Three fish tanks later, one jumps. 🤷🏻‍♀️.

 

Now, I’m perplexed as the other one looks lonely....

 

sigh

[ryn2]

11 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Never EVER throw that ping pong ball at your local charity carnival.

Seven years for mine.  Would probably have been longer but a new tank snail gave it a parasite.

[anisotrophic]

Clove oil for mine, after six months & when kids weren’t paying attention. (Yes I do find killing animals a bit stressful, I’m just inclined to do emotionally hard things when needed.)

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Clove oil for mine, after six months & when kids weren’t paying attention. (Yes I do find killing animals a bit stressful, I’m just inclined to do emotionally hard things when needed.)

My parents would have had to tolerate months of my heartbreak.  I guess that was more burdensome than washing the fishbowl.  At least by the time he died I was a teen and did it all myself.

[Traveler40]

1 hour ago, CBC said:

Whoa what.

 

That's an absolutely disgusting thing to do.

Maybe, maybe not...

 

I read up on it just now. Who knows why the fish needed euthanizing, but it seems clove oil is the most humane way to do it.  
 

About 4 years ago, we had a cat that was dying of CKD. We decided to call in Lap of Love. Wow, was that an amazing experience in a tough time. It made me see euthanasia in a whole new light. It was peaceful, comfortable for our cat, and she never had to leave our home.  Most importantly, it allowed our kids to have full closure. 
 

Who knows why the fish needed a send off? If only due to inconvenience, you may have a point, but we don’t know. 
 

I’m feeling sad about our damn fish now.  Our youngest is devastated. 😥 While it was a feeder fish from a carnival, we cared for him for awhile. Poor little guy must’ve been scared lying there behind the tank unnoticed until it was too late. Clove oil would have been a better way to go....

[ryn2]

Definitely an advocate of euthanasia over suffering, especially suffering that isn’t transient.  I’d rather see rehoming where possible when it’s a convenience or human health issue (e.g., new onset allergies), though.  I’m also not a big fan of hiding pet death from kids - my young neighbors growing up talked for years about how their dog went to live happily on a farm because he was sad (and therefore barking) in their yard... um, nope, not what happened - but I’m sure that to some degree has to depend on the individual kids and their relationships with the pet.  I.e., unless I knew the people well, I wouldn’t feel comfortable telling them what they should do kids-wise.

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

Poor little guy must’ve been scared lying there behind the tank unnoticed until it was too late.

Yeah, that’s sad.  Hopefully he stunned himself with the impact.

[anisotrophic]

3 hours ago, CBC said:

Whoa what.

 

That's an absolutely disgusting thing to do.

Are you vegan?

 

I mean, I’ve been vegan for ethical reasons for significant periods in my life, I’m highly aware of the impact my life has on animal suffering. I’m aware that each egg I eat is a day a chicken was confined to produce eggs for me. But even most vegans are unlikely to declare people “absolutely disgusting” for the number of chickens and fish they effectively kill as a result of their dietary choices. (Those fish were not given humane deaths.)

 

The fish wasn’t sick, it was growing incompatible with the tank, which otherwise had tropical fish. It was literally a feeder goldfish, I’ve bought them years ago to feed a pet turtle we had when I was a teenager. (Is that a disgusting thing to do, too? 🤷)

[anisotrophic]

2 minutes ago, CBC said:

Nope, not vegan at all and never will be.

 

I interpreted the post as killing family pets because you couldn't be arsed to deal with them in some way any longer.

Sort of. I wasn’t going to buy another tank for it. The tank was not this parental unit’s idea, but ended up being all my work. 🙄 I’ve got enough chores & domestic work as it is, as noted elsewhere, to the point of serious mental health issues.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Sort of. I wasn’t going to buy another tank for it. The tank was not this parental unit’s idea, but ended up being all my work. 🙄 I’ve got enough chores & domestic work as it is, as noted elsewhere, to the point of serious mental health issues.

Why not just give it away, instead of killing it...? Hopefully "just an animal" doesn't extend to rabbits, dogs, cats, etc your partner may get for the kids without it being your idea...

 

Feeding them to turtles is one thing. That's a purpose and part of the natural predator/prey order. And it wasn't a beloved pet that your child was attached to. Killing it just cause you couldn't be bothered ... erm. Cruelty to my pets is one reason I never talk to my dad anymore (been ... 17 years? since we spoke and likely won't ever again - the pets thing wasn't the only thing, but it was one of the main things). One of the other main things was lying to me. 

[anisotrophic]

Bleh, I've been overwhelmed by pandemic. Catching up.

I think there's a bit of a culture clash and/or conflation occurring here. I don't encourage children to name these fish. It happened once (a neon tetra in another tank, which promptly died, and I retired that effort at "aquaponics" as nobody but me was interested in eating the green products). The children eat fish sticks – I caved in on vegetarianism recently between the pandemic & picky eating – the fish they eat have as much right to a life without suffering as the fish in an aquarium we keep.

Please think of it as a science classroom tank with unnamed fish, not a beloved pet. Where we get to learn fun lessons like "put the mommy guppy in a V-trap or she will eat her own babies". Not really a natural predator/prey cycle, is it? (Guppies evolved in streams; babies floated downstream where they were safe from this cannabalistic prolicide.) I'm sure there's countless babies that get eaten because usually people don't keep female guppies in those… ah, so many reasons to feel guilty. (Female guppies store sperm, so even removing the boys won't avoid the phenomenon.)

Of course I wouldn't uncaringly destroy beloved things of children – whether those are living things or objects. An object can hold a lot of sentimental value. It sounds like sentimental attachment is being conflated with some sort of "pet" status here… an emotional attachment conflated with living status. (Or perhaps feel free to declare the fish tank "not pets". I'm pretty wary of acquiring animal responsibilities that have emotional attachments.)

I think goldfish are some sort of piscine albatross that I refuse to wear. They grow and grow, they live a long time. The goldfish was purchased to help establish a nitrogen cycle, I later regretted not having gotten a neon tetra or zebrafish that would've been more appropriate in the long term.

In the meantime, a zebrafish was clearly dying and I didn't euthanize it because I was exhausted and didn't have time. I felt guilty about just waiting and letting it suffer for another day or two, then had to locate and remove the corpse.

[Traveler40]

*edited out

 

Tried to PM instead, but no can do. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[anisotrophic]

On 9/25/2020 at 6:05 AM, Traveler40 said:

*edited out

 

Tried to PM instead, but no can do. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think it was to me? I didn't respond immediately as I wanted to take some time to think about it. My inbox says "Used 6% messenger storage" so I don't know what the technical issue was. But if it's still not working, I can try to start a private message thread for you.

The pandemic has certainly been hard on me, that alone might affect my behavior (e.g. not re-reading much before posting, identity challenged in various ways, exhaustion/stress). I've started deliberately waking up 1.5 hours before kids just to have time to myself. In theory. Now the youngest is awake before 5:30, wth – so much for that – and off I go again.

[Traveler40]

Hey @anisotrophic, sorry, I’ve been out of pocket for a few days. I had posted my thoughts on something that had bothered me for awhile, but thought it was inappropriate after doing so. I tried PMing as noted, but got a message that said, “this person does not accept personal messages”, so I’m not sure what’s going on there.

 

Anyhow, maybe it’s the pandemic and being tight on time. That makes sense. Lord knows I skip proofing enough which leads to some interesting results. Haha 

 

We’ve been reading each other for years now, and I tend to connect with much of what’s said. You’re very good at expressing things and usually accessible. Recently, I’d seen the changes mentioned which felt odd.

 

Hopefully you are normalizing. Our kid’s school opened up, but we chose to keep them at home for now. In a way, this has become a sustainable routine. A number of our friends haven’t had a similar outcome as they have a toddler or preschool age child in the mix. That seems to add a fair amount of stress on their schedules as you point out. They seem relieved to be able to drop their older kids back on campus which is understandable. 
 

Well, hang in there; This too shall pass. Sorry for posting as I did, it wasn’t my position even if it was a concern.

[œddy]

3 hours ago, CBC said:

Lol... tfw someone 'likes' one of your posts in this thread from over a year ago, about stuff you didn't think you were into, and... how wrong you were. 🙃

Its hard to remember how you felt or your brain process on something even a few months ago, forums can be fun (or maybe just 'interesting') as a record of how we all change.

Its especially great when you don't agree with yourself or can't figure out your own line of reasoning ...

[Traveler40]

@CBC - saw this and thought of you. 😬

 

[Traveler40]

...Am currently more into thinking about Santa who’s planning to stop by tonight during dinner. We may have to socially distance during his visit and keep him outside,  but COVID won’t stop St. Nick!

 

Fraternal Order of the Real Bearded Santas. 🎅🏻 Gotta love the dedication!

[Traveler40]

Wish I could have @CBC!  Santa (same one so definitely is the real deal around here) has come by for the past decade. Christmas wouldn’t be the same without him. He turns 85 (plus 800 to my kids) shortly. It was bittersweet as he left. He mouthed to me that he felt it would be his last year. 
 

And so another era may come to an end. My kids still believe, and I’d have it no other way. It has been a wonderful ride. 🎅🏻 ♥️

[ryn2]

3 hours ago, CBC said:

I first got suspicious about his existence when I was about five.

Same.  We didn’t have a fireplace and the alternatives explained to me made no sense.  I asked the (older) neighbor kids for the truth.

 

3 hours ago, CBC said:

Don't know of anything like that here.

Here, either, as far as I know... but it was founded long after my childhood.

 

 

[Guest]

My mom never told us Santa or Easter Bunny etc were real. We always had reality of it was a fable. I find the whole idea of pretending it is real odd, tbh. Especially when doing real vs make believe as a standard with kids for my job ! Being able to tell magic is fake is literally a sign of being ready for school here, but then we are meant to lie and say magic for Santa is real. So contradictory! I can't blame my kids for believing in unicorns and such when they are told flying magical reindeer are real. So, that standard unit is always rough. 

 

 "Magic is make believe. Animals don't fly. These are some clues this story is make believe."

"But Santa is magic and Rudolph flies" 

"Uhh. Well. Yes. But..."

"The tooth fairy is magic and she's real"

"Well, that is true..."

 

I swear that unit is just set up to make teachers have awkward conversations with 5 year olds for the lols 😛

 

[superblonde]

I was pretty sure Santa wasn't real by the time I was five. However, I knew my parents were really invested in it. This made me a bit mad and made me question whether or not I should trust them In anything.

 

So, and I remember this as clearly as if it happened yesterday, when I was five years old, after I'd buckled myself in the back seat of the car after we were about to go somewhere, I said to them, "Tell me the truth. Is there a Santa Claus? Don't lie, or I'll never forgive you."

 

I could see that my Dad was about to tell me the truth, but my Mom stopped him and told me Santa was real. I knew from that day that neither of my parents were trustworthy, though my Dad was better than my Mom. This has held true to this day.

 

But just to see how far they'd let it go, I pretended to believe until I was ten years old. I even pretended to believe at school, so it never got back to them. I laid it on thick, with letters to Santa and everything. Then, when I was ten, I found one of their Christmas gifts hidden and decided now was the time. On Christmas day, when I opened it and it said, "from Santa," I told them I had found this gift in the closet a month before.

 

I furiously demanded to know why they had lied to me. My mother said, "We just thought you'd figure it out and stop believing." I said, "So you thought I would just turn disloyal and stop trusting you?" I also said, "I stand by my promise. I'll never forgive you."

 

Think twice before you lie to your kids for fun, folks

 

Of course, they are horrified by my world view in general as an adult. They know I don't believe in God or any of the fluffy rubbish people cling to. Well what did you expect? Liars

[anisotrophic]

27 minutes ago, Serran said:

Being able to tell magic is fake is literally a sign of being ready for school here, but then we are meant to lie and say magic for Santa is real.

Our oldest finally made the connection and was proud about working it out. “Oh. Magic isn’t real. If Santa is magic, that means Santa isn’t real.” It was fun bantering while it’s being figured out. “But if Santa isn’t real, who eats the cookies we leave out?” “I think you’re eating them.” 😂

 

And we chatted about how this is something fun for little kids & it’s fun for an older sibling to keep the story going. I don’t think it’s bad to set up the dissonance and let a kid work it out: learning to detect inconsistency and question it is an important skill. I didn’t fight to sustain belief in the fiction, just let the “aha” happen & agreed as soon as it did.

 

I’m vague about God & religion. I don’t tell them what I think is true, but just “some people say X is true” and what those stories say. I was raised in that ambiguous way myself and eventually came to be atheist on my own — not “I was always told this” nor having a sense of “fighting against what I was told”.

[anisotrophic]

8 minutes ago, superblonde said:

I said to them, "Tell me the truth. Is there a Santa Claus? Don't lie, or I'll never forgive you."

The way I handle this is shifting the conversation to ask what the kid thinks, and discussing what others say, what they see, evidence & countering evidence. I want them to learn to discover truth, not expect me to hand it to them.

[superblonde]

@anisotrophic Good luck with that. Though I find most people grow up to fall for all the same tricks, so maybe you'll get off without a hitch

[Guest]

My grandmother was JW, so we never celebrated holidays out of respect for her. So, my childhood was my family loving me enough to buy me presents and knowing what I liked so getting me things I enjoyed without asking for them. And they didn't come on specific days, just when my family felt like giving me something nice. Rather than magical creatures leaving me gifts that I never get to meet. I appreciated the gifts because I knew my grandmother had limited income, so that $20 huge stuffed animal meant she got less for herself to give me something. I knew my parents worked extra hours to buy bikes for me and my brother, so they could surprise us at midnight when they got home from that hard work with bikes in the back of their truck. I didn't ask for that SNES game I wanted cause I knew if they could afford it, they would get it. If I broke my NES controller, I learned to fix it myself, rather than depending on Santa getting me one cause the elf on the shelf reported I was good this year. 

 

I am rather happy I never believed honestly. I watch kids making their parents feel awful with their Santa wish lists that the parents will never be able to fill. Then I watch the parents working two jobs to try. I wouldnt want that pressure on my family or the guilt as an adult after realizing how bad a position I put my family in! I feel bad enough my mom turned down a trip to China for us when I was little cause she couldn't leave her kids for a year. I would feel so bad if my parents had worked a second job during my childhood cause I wrote to Santa I wanted something expensive without knowing my parents had to buy it. 

 

24 minutes ago, CBC said:

I also once asked 'God' to move a sock that was lying on my bedroom floor, to prove that he/she/it/whatever was real. I closed my eyes for a minute, opened them again, and... no change in the sock. 

Haha my grandmother would have said "God won't do it because you're questioning him. He doesn't listen to people who don't believe." 

 

2 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Our oldest finally made the connection and was proud about working it out. “Oh. Magic isn’t real. If Santa is magic, that means Santa isn’t real.” It was fun bantering while it’s being figured out. “But if Santa isn’t real, who eats the cookies we leave out?” “I think you’re eating them.” 😂

 

And we chatted about how this is something fun for little kids & it’s fun for an older sibling to keep the story going. I don’t think it’s bad to set up the dissonance and let a kid work it out: learning to detect inconsistency and question it is an important skill. I didn’t fight to sustain belief in the fiction, just let the “aha” happen & agreed as soon as it did.

 

I’m vague about God & religion. I don’t tell them what I think is true, but just “some people say X is true” and what those stories say. I was raised in that ambiguous way myself and eventually came to be atheist on my own — not “I was always told this” nor having a sense of “fighting against what I was told”.

As a teacher, I cant let the aha moment happen as that is up to the parents. I am encouraged to say I believe in these things and reinforce whatever the parents tell them. 

 

At the same time, I have to get the kids to the point they can tell magic in a story makes it fiction so they master their goal. 

 

The two things honestly don't mesh well.

 

If you set it up as a critical thinking challenge where you can praise the advancement, that does improve cognitive skills. I just find the conversations awkward, since im not allowed to even let it go to Santa isnt real if its gonna head that way. 

[superblonde]

I knew Santa wasn't real when I said that to my parents. It was obvious. The whole point of what I said to them was to test them as well as other adults to see how untrustworthy they were. Newsflash: very untrustworthy

[Traveler40]

Well, we hashed this out in a depressing thread awhile ago, and I’ve no desire to revisit the dark thoughts on anti-Santa again 😳
 

For some it was not good, for others our traditions are magical. I pass that magic onto my kids who aren’t nearly as black and white in their emotions or thoughts. We love our Christmas traditions through and through.

 

@cbc, there are two wonderful organizations to find great Santas: Fraternal Order of the Real Bearded Santas (FORBS) and International Brotherhood of the Real Bearded Santas (IBORBS). Why two? Well, the original FORBS had a major fight a few decades back. Stop and digest that for a second - fighting Santas...🤣. The foundation of their Order was you must have a REAL BEARD, but some felt it wasn’t fair to discriminate. What if you had a job that required you to shave (ie military)? So, the Santas fought about this and eventually split into two groups. Many belong to both (like ours), but if you need a Santa, that’s a great place to find one. Each have websites listing their local chapters. 
 

Last night was awesome! The kids never saw it coming given COVID, and I teared up. It was all that Santa represents: Magic, good cheer and a welcome tradition for many. I’ll miss that jolly old guy if this was, in fact, his last visit. We can’t get a replacement Santa after so many years. Our youngest is still too young to let it go, so who knows what next year brings. I figure we have 2, maybe 3 years left. For now, we enjoy the afterglow of a truly wonderful family night. I gift my kids a childhood of warm and, hopefully, fond memories. 💕

[Guest]

Just now, superblonde said:

I knew Santa wasn't real when I said that to my parents. It was obvious. The whole point of what I said to them was to test them as well as other adults to see how untrustworthy they were. Newsflash: very untrustworthy

Yeah. With my ESE kids something like that would ruin trust as well. But they are mostly non-verbal so I don't have to worry about it with them!

 

Most kids seem OK with the lie. *shrug* And I just put it as one of the weird traditions I dont get that adults do... like gift giving on holidays even if you don't like the person. 

 

One unit the schools do is traditions around the world so we do things like put food in shoes and gifts magically appear in the shoe at the end of the week (Netherlands) for the kids. 

[anisotrophic]

2 minutes ago, superblonde said:

@anisotrophic Good luck with that. Though I find most people grow up to fall for all the same tricks, so maybe you'll get off without a hitch

It can be slow; a younger sib got super into religious stuff as a teenager & it bothered me; my mom pointed out “look there’s worse crowds they could be latching onto”. They were embarrassed about the phase later in life. 😛

 

@Serran yeah I don’t envy your position there, navigating not being at odds with all the differing parental approaches. 😕

 

I *do* enjoy the Santa & other fictions, and it’s something an older sibling can enjoy sustaining for younger sibs. Stories remain fun & touching & create shared experiences, even when you know they aren’t “real”.

 

I think it’s important to let kids discover reality for themselves; the world is full of people telling you what to believe, knowing how to sort it out for yourself is an important skill. I wouldn’t call our approach to Santa a “lie” but an incomplete truth that I agree is incomplete when they start questioning it & explore the incompleteness and inconsistency with them. It actually sustained so late for the oldest that my mom was concerned that peers would mock, but it turned out well.

[superblonde]

@Serran Oh, yes. I noticed most kids seemed okay with the lie. I thought about that, and why that might be.

 

I concluded it was because they were like their parents, and most people in the world, who prefer self deception to reality, because life is bleak and hard and many of them aren't the great people they want to believe they are.

 

They're also manipulators, who feel that it isn't so wrong to manipulate. After all, their parents did it, and their parents love them. Everyone does it. It's no big deal 

 

It's an initiation into corruption and weakness, that most kids accept because they know it will be easier than being strong and truthful, and they know they will get a get out of jail free pass as long as they lean into cultural deceptions