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Helplessinlove

Sexual wife, with a suspected asexual Husband.

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ryn2
3 hours ago, James121 said:

Do you need to watch a video of people with a cold to assist inducing a sneeze?

This made me laugh because it really is a good analogy.

 

I don’t particularly enjoy the feeling of needing to sneeze, and I don’t particularly enjoy the feeling of needing an orgasm.

 

Looking at bright lights (or the sun) makes me sneeze, if I already need to.  It makes me sneeze a lot faster than waiting for the sneeze to show up on its own, and can make me sneeze even when the feeling might have faded unrealized.

 

So, when I need to sneeze, I look at the brightest light I can find.

 

Porn (for me, personally, only of things like male/male that could never involve or remind me of me) is like that light - fastest way to get through the annoying part and on to the feeling relieved afterwards.

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ryn2
11 hours ago, Helplessinlove said:

I also just found out, through asking him directly that he masterbates once a week. I dont understand how ge can do that but not with me.

Two separate components here: orientation and drive.  Orientation determines broadly who you want to have sex with; drive determines how often you want to have sex.

 

The two aren’t directly related.  You can be oriented towards people of the same sex, the opposite sex, multiple sexes, or none of the above.  You can also have anywhere from no drive to very high drive, with any of those orientations.

 

An ace with a high drive will want to masturbate often.  A heterosexual with a low drive will want to have sex with someone of the opposite sex, but infrequently... and so on.

 

It’s hard to satisfy drive outside of orientation - if you are a heterosexual man, for example, having sex with another man isn’t going to meet your needs like having sex with a woman would.  That’s not you being selfish; it just isn’t the same.

 

Aces aren’t oriented towards partnered sex, just like straight men are not oriented towards sex with other men.  They can do it if they have to, and may choose to do it for a variety of reasons, but it doesn’t do for them what sex within your orientation does for you.

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James121
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Plenty of aces masturbate, with or without porn, toys, etc.  Ace doesn’t always mean “has no libido/sex drive.”

 

The difference is that, for the ace, solo sex is far preferable to partnered sex.  Based on what the sexuals say, it’s probably the inverse of how sexuals feel about it.

I get that. I just see it as selfish. You are a couple. Do it together! Don’t cook yourself a lovely meal and sit down next to your hungry partner and eat it. You are a couple!

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ryn2
5 minutes ago, James121 said:

I get that. I just see it as selfish. You are a couple. Do it together! Don’t cook yourself a lovely meal and sit down next to your hungry partner and eat it. You are a couple!

As you’ve said yourself, masturbating and partnered sex aren’t interchangeable/the same.  Alas, if they were, none of us would have a problem either way...

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ryn2
10 minutes ago, James121 said:

Don’t cook yourself a lovely meal and sit down next to your hungry partner and eat it.

Also, this is a separate issue/thing.  I would never masturbate while my partner was around; it’s not something I do to taunt him, nor would I want it to be.  For me it’s more like cooking myself a lovely meal when I am home alone.

 

I wouldn’t lie about either if asked but I don’t flaunt either thing... either.

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James121
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Also, this is a separate issue/thing.  I would never masturbate while my partner was around; it’s not something I do to taunt him, nor would I want it to be.  For me it’s more like cooking myself a lovely meal when I am home alone.

 

I wouldn’t lie about either if asked but I don’t flaunt either thing... either.

But when he is around do you then tell him you’re not hungry?

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, James121 said:

But when he is around do you then tell him you’re not hungry?

In my specific case he’s the one who discontinued sex, not me.  Before that I rarely told him no, whether or not I was hungry.

 

I don’t tell him if I *am* hungry, though.

 

In a more general sense, it’s more like the squid question.  The sexual is hungry for squid, say, and the ace (with drive) is hungry for brownies.  If either can’t get what they want and is legit starving, any food might do... but if it’s just a case of being hungry for something specific they aren’t actually sharing a common hunger.

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Telecaster68

Unless they can both stomach squid brownies.

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Unless they can both stomach squid brownies.

Even if they can, both would probably prefer the two unmixed.

 

If they both liked squid brownies as well as they liked squid or brownies... or even just well enough not to miss squid or brownies... they probably aren’t on the internet commiserating with the rest of us. :)

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gaogao

Off topic but squid brownies sound... really bad.

 

But I guess it's like, some people can handle squid brownies, other people would rather have neither and never have squid OR brownies again if the only option was squid brownies... so. That's a thing i guess?

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, gaogao said:

Off topic but squid brownies sound... really bad.

 

But I guess it's like, some people can handle squid brownies, other people would rather have neither and never have squid OR brownies again if the only option was squid brownies... so. That's a thing i guess?

I actually like both (talking about the foods, not the sexual acts they’ve been standing in for) squid and brownies, but I don’t think I could choke down the two combined. :)

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gaogao

Hmm.. i was trying to make a metaphor like... a sexual person who is happy to masturbate sometimes (brownies) but prefers to have sex (squid) might not actually be okay with mixing the two (squid and brownies)... the squid and brownies being an allegory for sex with an asexual partner who has no mutual desire for them, and is just using them as a masturbatory aid.

 

Idk if that actually made any sense as a metaphor though.

 

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ryn2

It did.  I just thought from the OT that you meant actual food.

 

I can see how a sexual partner could not like being used as a masturbatory aid.  That’s kind of like having sex as an ace, actually.  Since some aces find partnered sex less effective than masturbation I don’t have a good feel for how often that scenario arises.

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gaogao

:lol: i meant the off topic part as just the first line.... sorry it wasn't that clear! Cos... speaking about the foods... it really does sound bad ...

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Telecaster68
53 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I can see how a sexual partner could not like being used as a masturbatory aid.  That’s kind of like having sex as an ace, actually.  Since some aces find partnered sex less effective than masturbation I don’t have a good feel for how often that scenario arises.

My wife explicitly said that was exactly what sex was to her, when we did have sex. She was horny, I was to hand and willing, so it kind of worked.

 

You're right though, it isn't nice, and something felt 'off' at the time, but I couldn't put my finger on it beyond thinking she could be a rather selfish lover. When sexuals have sex, generally, giving your partner pleasure is part of the turn on, but when one of them is just a masturbatory tool for the other, nothing like that is going on, and it's weirdly disconnecting. You feel used, and not in a good way. (The good way works like this: the  'using' partner wants the sexual connection with their partner so much that they get selfishly lost in the moment, rather than pleasuring the 'used' partner. However, the 'used' partner understands the reason for that selfishness is that they're turning on the 'user' so much they're losing control, and knowing you're having that effect is incredibly exciting for a lot of sexuals. I have a feeling this sounds weird and inexplicable to asexuals. The difference between good and bad 'used' is that one involves the 'used' partner being wanted for themselves, and the other involves them being a kind of organic dildo).

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Mary Lambert
10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

generally, giving your partner pleasure is part of the turn on,

Yes, that was part of the experience, but not with an ACE. There is no understanding of the experience, its just like get this over with please!

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vega57
4 hours ago, James121 said:

But when he is around do you then tell him you’re not hungry?

If you already ate, and if you're not hungry OR, if you're simply not hungry if he's around, then why not?  

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ryn2
59 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

...when one of them is just a masturbatory tool for the other, nothing like that is going on, and it's weirdly disconnecting. You feel used, and not in a good way. 

This is exactly what sex can feel like as an ace.  Knowing you’re doing something nice for your partner can help make up for that feeling, but you have to constantly keep that motivation in mind to avoid drifting back into feeling used.

 

Everything you said makes perfect sense and is in line with what I’ve read/been told by others.  It’s just not something I experience personally.

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vega57
58 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

My wife explicitly said that was exactly what sex was to her, when we did have sex. She was horny, I was to hand and willing, so it kind of worked.

 

You're right though, it isn't nice, and something felt 'off' at the time, but I couldn't put my finger on it beyond thinking she could be a rather selfish lover. When sexuals have sex, generally, giving your partner pleasure is part of the turn on, but when one of them is just a masturbatory tool for the other, nothing like that is going on, and it's weirdly disconnecting. You feel used, and not in a good way. (The good way works like this: the  'using' partner wants the sexual connection with their partner so much that they get selfishly lost in the moment, rather than pleasuring the 'used' partner. However, the 'used' partner understands the reason for that selfishness is that they're turning on the 'user' so much they're losing control, and knowing you're having that effect is incredibly exciting for a lot of sexuals. I have a feeling this sounds weird and inexplicable to asexuals. The difference between good and bad 'used' is that one involves the 'used' partner being wanted for themselves, and the other involves them being a kind of organic dildo).

This is exactly how I felt while having sex most of the time.  

 

It's funny....

 

There was a sexual poster on another board who described sex as a "selfish" act for the very reason you described.  At some point during the act (usually close to orgasm), your focus is OFF of your partner and ON to yourself.  Could be for a few seconds to a few minutes.  If you're trying to turn on your partner, *YOU* are also getting turned on to the point of being...lost..in the moment.  Your focus is completely off of your partner, and on to yourself.  It's as if you used your partner to get to a certain point, and once you reach that point you say to yourself, "O.k., thanks for the 'help'.  I'll take it from here..."  

 

Where's the 'connection' in that?  

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ryn2
54 minutes ago, Mary Lambert said:

Yes, that was part of the experience, but not with an ACE. There is no understanding of the experience, its just like get this over with please!

I would say “appreciation” (in the art/fine wine sense, not in the thankfulness sense) rather than “understanding” - it’s not that I don’t intellectually get how it can be - but, yes.

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Telecaster68
12 minutes ago, vega57 said:

Where's the 'connection' in that?

I'd describe that part as self involvement more than selfishness. But the connection is still there, could be in two ways -

 

Firstly, you're both in that state, and even given that you're lost in the moment, it's a shared moment. It's difficult to explain if you've never felt it, but the nearest experience I've had is performing music in a group. Partly you're focussing on your own performance, but sharing that moment, that experience with other people, and knowing that they're experiencing something pretty similar to you (because you know them, you've played with them a lot, you can see it in how they're behaving).

 

Or, it could be that you know your partner is enjoying giving you that pleasure (and that's an understatement - the pleasure of giving that kind of pleasure to your partner is very close to receiving it) - so again, you're sharing that moment.

 

I think it's also to do with a kind of ecstasy (in the widest sense) of being that open, that vulnerable, with someone close to you. If they weren't involved in the moment, it wouldn't be close to what you experience by yourself.

 

(And before you get to 'but what about ONS and prostitutes?'... it could happen with ONS, but I'd imagine prostitutes are different and far closer to masturbation, but physically better. But over all, it is selfish. It's a paid transaction).

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vega57
28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Firstly, you're both in that state, and even given that you're lost in the moment, it's a shared moment. It's difficult to explain if you've never felt it, but the nearest experience I've had is performing music in a group. Partly you're focussing on your own performance, but sharing that moment, that experience with other people, and knowing that they're experiencing something pretty similar to you (because you know them, you've played with them a lot, you can see it in how they're behaving)

O.k., but here's the difference as I see it.  At some point during sex your 'self-involvement' kicks in, whereas, while playing music, it doesn't.  I mean, it's not as if you're playing with someone else and suddenly ONE other person starts playing a different song...or rolls of a lick that has NOTHING to do with the music everyone else is playing.  For the guy who suddenly drifted off, it's almost as if s/he was just using you guys to 'warm up' so he could play his own tune.  And suddenly, there's that DISconnection.  

 

Would you still want to keep playing with someone who did this?  

 

Quote

Or, it could be that you know your partner is enjoying giving you that pleasure (and that's an understatement - the pleasure of giving that kind of pleasure to your partner is very close to receiving it) - so again, you're sharing that moment.

If my late husband even thought he was giving me any kind of pleasure, he would get TOO excited...if you know what I mean.  

 

Quote

I think it's also to do with a kind of ecstasy (in the widest sense) of being that open, that vulnerable, with someone close to you. If they weren't involved in the moment, it wouldn't be close to what you experience together.

I dunno.  I think that two people can do the exact same thing and walk away with completely different experiences.  I could go to a movie with a someone and they're RAVING about it.  Meanwhile, I think the movie was...eh.  If I tell them that, I get the, "Are you KIDDING ME?  How could you NOT have liked that MOVIE?!  It was AWESOME!!"  ...which, strangely enough, is what a number of asexuals hear from sexuals.  

 

Maybe it's the sex  itself and the attitude toward sex that's a turn-off for asexuals.  

 

Quote

(And before you get to 'but what about ONS and prostitutes?'... it could happen with ONS, but I'd imagine prostitutes are different and far closer to masturbation, but physically better. But over all, it is selfish. It's a paid transaction).

The reason I bring this up a lot is because it doesn't seem to be much different quite often whether it's a ONS, prostitute, FWB, "hook-up", or even in a 'loving' relationship. And this doesn't come from me, it's something I've heard from sexuals themselves.   They're with a prostitute because it feels physically better than masturbation.  But people in LTR's/marriages will say the same thing.  And THAT'S why it sounds almost selfish.  

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ryn2

That’s interesting, @Telecaster68.  While I get a strong sense of shared achievement from performing music with a group, much like I do when completing a difficult project, it’s certainly not something I would describe as ecstasy (although I’ve heard others talk about it exactly that way).  While I love many forms of art I don’t find myself “transported” by it the way some describe.  I may get very mentally excited about something/someone, in the obsession/crush sense, but I get the impression that’s different.

 

I wonder if that’s just me or if a component of some people’s “aceness” is a general lack of capacity for ecstasy.

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Telecaster68
14 minutes ago, vega57 said:

At some point during sex your 'self-involvement' kicks in, whereas, while playing music, it doesn't.  I mean, it's not as if you're playing with someone else and suddenly ONE other person starts playing a different song...or rolls of a lick that has NOTHING to do with the music everyone else is playing.  For the guy who suddenly drifted off, it's almost as if s/he was just using you guys to 'warm up' so he could play his own tune.  And suddenly, there's that DISconnection.  

It's not a perfect, all encompassing anaology. I was trying to say that both things are happening at once, with music and sex. Part of your mind is focussing on your own performance, part on the group performance, part on enjoying yourself. If you take a solo (the nearest I can get to orgasm in this analogy), then obviously you're focussing on what you're doing more, and consciously, maybe that's all that's in your head. But you're still playing with other people, and aware of what they're doing, and the togetherness makes it far more intense experience than if you were just playing alone.

 

17 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I dunno.

Well, I do know about my experience, and that's what it is. And I've seen plenty of other sexuals say the same thing too.

 

18 minutes ago, vega57 said:

They're with a prostitute because it feels physically better than masturbation.  But people in LTR's/marriages will say the same thing.

Both things are better than solo, but they're different to each other.

 

I'm guessing about the prostitute thing, but I've had sex that wasn't based on any profound emotional relationship, so I'm guessing sex with a prostitute is a more extreme version of that in some ways. It's mostly that involving someone else physically just feels better, because to be crude, vaginas and mouths feel better (and more novel) than your own hand. And in what AVEN would call sensual terms, you enjoy their body.

 

With ONS, there's a certain amount of ego gratification too, and nothing wrong with that, and maybe exploring new stuff that they like and you can discover you like. There's a certain amount of that shared pleasure too, in getting someone else off, and sharing a degree of vulnerability.

 

Then in a relationship, there's all that stuff, plus probably a deeper emotional connection, relationship maintenance in that you're re-affirming that you fancy each other, the comfort of a secure relationship.

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vega57
11 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's mostly that involving someone else physically just feels better, because to be crude, vaginas and mouths feel better (and more novel) than your own hand.

And THAT'S what I don't like.  Just because something "feels better" if someone else does it rather than doing it yourself doesn't hold water.  I mean, I scratch my own back.  If my late husband scratched my back (Ha!  THAT would be the day...) it would probably "feel better" than if I did it myself.  

 

But...so what?  Does that give me a license to insist or even expect that he does it for me, just because it "feels better" when he does?   I mean, if he ever offered to scratch my back, I'd probably accept it and be grateful that he did.  But I wouldn't expect him to do it to the point where I become angry, depressed, sullen or agitated if he doesn't.  

 

Seriously, does being a couple suddenly mean that someone else gets to do all the things for you that you don't like doing yourself?  

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Telecaster68
10 minutes ago, vega57 said:

 Just because something "feels better" if someone else does it rather than doing it yourself doesn't hold water.  I mean, I scratch my own back.  If my late husband scratched my back (Ha!  THAT would be the day...) it would probably "feel better" than if I did it myself.  

Have you missed a 'not' in the second part?

 

Assuming you have, then you're objectively wrong, for most sexuals. A mouth, or a vagina, or a penis, just does feel better than your own hand. They're anatomically different, they move in different ways, they feel different, and for most people, that difference is very, very much positive.

 

I get this isn't the same for asexuals, presumably for mental reasons, since anatomically they're no different to sexuals. But you can't possibly say that the physical sensation of someone else's genitals or mouth are the same as your own hand.

 

(If you haven't missed a 'not', then you understand what I'm saying. There are physical things that just feel better when someone else does them).

 

10 minutes ago, vega57 said:

But...so what?

So - most people prefer it, and that interaction has an intimacy and emotional association that makes it way better than doing it yourself.

 

10 minutes ago, vega57 said:

I wouldn't expect him to do it to the point where I become angry, depressed, sullen or agitated if he doesn't.  

I noticed on another thread your expectations of a relationship are basically to be left alone - at least that was the only one you suggested when someone asked you directly. This is pretty much the opposite of what most people expect from a relationship, and I think partnered sex is another area where your expectations are not normative. This isn't a reason to just not accept other people's expectations are real or reasonable in their relationships though.

 

10 minutes ago, vega57 said:

does being a couple suddenly mean that someone else gets to do all the things for you that you don't like doing yourself?

That someone else generally wants to do those things, because for both of you, it brings you closer.

 

It's not that you don't like doing them yourself, it's that it's better with two people.

 

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vega57
49 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But you can't possibly say that the physical sensation of someone else's genitals or mouth are the same as your own hand.

 

So - most people prefer it, and that interaction has an intimacy and emotional association that makes it way better than doing it yourself.

 

It's not that you don't like doing them yourself, it's that it's better with two people.

I get that many people would prefer it (sex) to their own hand.  But that isn't what I asked.  What I asked was that just because something "feels better" from someone else, does that mean that I get to constantly expect it from someone else?   I used the example of scratching my back before.  Even though it "feels better" when someone else does it, does that mean that now that I'm in a relationship that I STOP scratching my own back and expect my partner to do it for me, JUST because it "feels better" when?  

 

Quote

I noticed on another thread your expectations of a relationship are basically to be left alone - at least that was the only one you suggested when someone asked you directly.

Not true.  It's not that I want to be left alone.  It's that I don't see that relationships mean being 'clingy'...or being the center of someone's universe at all costs.  I understand wanting to spend time with someone, but not so much time that there's nothing left for me.  Plus, I don't want the time that we spend together to be MOSTLY about sex.  

 

 

 

 

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Telecaster68

Sexuals don't expect it *from* someone else as something that's granted. They expect, because it's the norm, that both partners see it as an integral, pleasurable part of the relationship. Nobody's making a concession, they both want to scratch each other's backs because it's better.

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James121
3 hours ago, vega57 said:

If you already ate, and if you're not hungry OR, if you're simply not hungry if he's around, then why not?  

Because that’s selfish. Save your appetite for when he is around. It’s called being a couple.

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roland.o
19 hours ago, Helplessinlove said:

he masterbates once a week. I dont understand how ge can do that but not with me.

Have you ever had your bowels stuffed full, but no occasion to go to the toilet? And when you finally had the occasion, and purged your bowels, didn't it feel good? I mean, really good? A relief that made you happy all around for some time? I'm sure you've experienced that.

So, would that make you want to share that good feeling with your partner? To have him there in the toilet while you take a dump? Holding your hand, stroking you gently, telling you encouraging words while you push, wiping your arse afterwards? Probably not.

Some people have that kind of kink, but many prefer to be alone and undisturbed when they dispose of their bodily waste. No matter how good it feels, or how much somebody else would like to be involved, it's just a private business for them.

 

19 hours ago, Helplessinlove said:

Hubby watches porn too! Wtf he says its a release not sexual...... ummmmm

Poor choice of words on his side. I guess he's not used to talking about these matters, is he?

On the other hand, we're on AVEN here. That's the place where we have serious discussions about whether masturbation counts as sex or not:

The first response says: It's not sex, but still sexual. Do you want to blame your husband for not being able to split that fine a hair when you made him talk? I'm sure you have better reasons.

 

My point is: masturbation and partnered sex are two entirely different activities. As different as reading a comic book vs. having an online chat - you have to read short sentences and interpret little pictures in both cases. But you don't have a conversation when reading a comic book. You don't have to respond to somebody else's input. You do not interact, you do not communicate, you don't need to consider what another person is thinking and how they will respond to what you do. In real time!

 

The two activities are as different as Aerobic (or Zumba?) vs. ballroom dancing. You can put on an Aerobic DVD and move your body to the music. It will make you feel good, it will burn calories, and when you've had enough, you switch off the TV and take a shower. When ballroom dancing, you also move your body to the music. But you have to move it in sync with a partner, you have to connect. And although there is a leader and a follower, it's a shared activity, both need to get into a common flow. I'm the leader, but sometimes, I don't give the lead in time, or change my mind halfway through a figure, and my partner follows and we keep in sync, inventing new figures. Sometimes, my partner doesn't follow, even though I did lead in time, but then I can respond by switching into a different figure, or by just moving along and getting back into sync a few steps later. It's a form of interaction, of communication, of being together. And it requires a totally different mindset than any kind of solo sport. Both can be fun, but both are different kinds of enjoyable, require different skills, and are different kinds of strenuous.

 

Masturbation is not a lower form of having partnered sex. It's something else, with a different purpose. I'm sure you understand that, because...

19 hours ago, Helplessinlove said:

Sex for me is an expression of my love, passion, desire and trust in a person.

And that's exactly what it is not for your husband.

 

Of course there are different types of masturbation as well. But based on the "release" quote above, it's safe to assume that your husband doesn't do it to connect with a fantasy person, in the way that you would want to connect with your husband. He doesn't do it to connect at all. There are some hormones rushing through our bodies, causing stress and tension and a general feeling of uneasiness. Masturbating is a way to push some buttons and let the brain release some chemicals to counter these effects. Speaking from personal experience, it's very rare that I do it for other reasons. The "flush the pipes" masturbation isn't a way to get into a lasting high that you would want to hold for as long as possible. (I have to guess here that partnered sex with the intent to connect is something the partners would want to last for as long as possible.) The male "flush the pipes" masturbation is about getting an erection as quickly as possible, then getting rid of it again as quickly as possible, feeling somewhat relaxed and relieved afterwards. Be done with it, then take a shower and go to bed, or whatever. It's a routine maintenance thing. And routine is an important aspect to get it over with quickly. The usual time, the usual place, the usual lighting, no disturbing sounds from outside, no interruption from unexpected visitors. Watch some mainstream porn, nothing too exciting, just the stuff that the brain has come to associate with routine masturbation. A visual input signalling that it's time to get an erection now. Don't bother with fantasizing or letting your own imagination run wild... it's much less effort to consume ready-made fantasies. And that's the point: getting off with as little effort as possible. Not a mind-blowing, earth-shattering orgasm that would take time to build up first. Just get off a bit, to feel better a bit. Any other person involved would ruin the mood, draw attention to them. Heaven beware of unexpected touching! And if the point of the exercise is to get off with little effort, why bother with getting someone else involved? Explaining what one likes? Being obliged to get the other person off in return? Foreplay, communication, establishing a rhythm, afterglow, pillow talk? It would all just increase the effort and distract from the point of the exercise.

 

The kind of sex that you wish for is not partnered masturbation. And that's why it's no use to compare it against his solo masturbation. You wouldn't like what would happen if he tried to get that weekly "release" with you present. And neither would he.

 

Cake, anyone? :cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake:  :D

 

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