Can we rename the Older Asexuals Forum the 25+ or 30+ Forum?

[test account]

Dave, you are right on in your understanding of the issues from my point of view, and Sonofzeal, I like your thinking.

What follows is harsh criticism of how the site has evolved--you may wish to skip it :P

Personally, I think there needed to be a firmer leadership long ago to specify the overall tone of this site. If it was desirable to gear it towards attracting teens who are working through their angst about sexuality, then it was a job well done, because that, folks, is what it has become. If it had been desirable to create an authoritative site on asexuality however, those teen issues should have been coralled into a teen forum, seriously. I'm afraid it may be too late to change this without lots of dummy spitting.

It's very important not to just cut and run when the landscape changes. If you don't master it, you will be run off the earth. Every special interest group looks like a minority, and if it's percieved as a minority it is not the authority. Like it or not, that's life. So how come you guys submitted to being placed as a minority? Whether you were actually less in numbers or not was immaterial. The future tone of the site was at issue. You gave it over to a bunch of kids who'll be here today and gone tomorrow--which is fine if they are primarily who the site is for, but I don't think that's what anyone intended.

Anyway, we're left with the issue of providing places for all our minorities now. What I'd like to know is do they all need their own forum? The 30s mob are doing very well with a few threads. Why have we got a Grey forum and a (basically) 50+ forum? Why aren't all the minority groups running threads in one big forum called "People just like you" or something like that? (I'm sure there's a better name for it). We certainly do want to find people we can relate to, which requires some exclusiveness as Skullery said, but if we're going to have homes for some then we ought to have homes for all.

I doubt this will happen though, as I don't think anyone cares enough to make it happen. The best advertisement for a place is to keep seeing people in it, and so I'll keep posting away in the threads of my particular interest with the rest of my cronies so new people can find us :)

[sonofzeal]

Dave, you are right on in your understanding of the issues from my point of view, and Sonofzeal, I like your thinking.

Thanks!

What follows is harsh criticism of how the site has evolved--you may wish to skip it :P

Personally, I think there needed to be a firmer leadership long ago to specify the overall tone of this site. If it was desirable to gear it towards attracting teens who are working through their angst about sexuality, then it was a job well done, because that, folks, is what it has become. If it had been desirable to create an authoritative site on asexuality however, those teen issues should have been coralled into a teen forum, seriously. I'm afraid it may be too late to change this without lots of dummy spitting.

It's very important not to just cut and run when the landscape changes. If you don't master it, you will be run off the earth. Every special interest group looks like a minority, and if it's percieved as a minority it is not the authority. Like it or not, that's life. So how come you guys submitted to being placed as a minority? Whether you were actually less in numbers or not was immaterial. The future tone of the site was at issue. You gave it over to a bunch of kids who'll be here today and gone tomorrow--which is fine if they are primarily who the site is for, but I don't think that's what anyone intended.

What follows is harsh inversion of said criticism - you may with to skip it. :twisted:

I honestly think the existence of this very forum is, if not causing, then at least exacerbating the problem.

Let me explain.

First, let's agree that it's pretty inevitable that we'd have a lot of throughput of teenagers. They're the ones most likely to be struggling with sexuality. It's all new for them, the social pressures of highschool are overwhelming, and there's a whole boatload of almost inevitable insecurities, or at least self-questioning, that comes with all that. Even more, that's the age group most active on the internet (hence why it's now being called "the internet generation"), and it's also the demographic most exposed to queer theory and the idea of orientations and alternate forms of sexual identity and expression. Is there any doubt we'd see legions passing through a site like this?

Now, teens aren't the only ones who are going to be finding this site, and they often aren't the ones to stick around. AVENite regulars have always been a mix of ages. Q&A and MusiRants are generally going to get mobbed by teens, but SPFA regulars are usually older, and social parts of the board have a mix.

But what happens when you take a lot of the social activity that was happening in the general boards, and move the older posters off to their own little special section?

By providing a special place for older asexuals to socialize, you're taking that socialization out of the main stream of things. This has the obvious result of decreasing the proportion of older-talk in the main social fora, and increasing the proportion of younger-talk as a result. If, for every 10 posts by teens, there were 5 posts by older asexuals, now there might be 4 or 3. Older asexuals obviously still participate there, but any activity that ends up on Older Asexuals is probably displaced from somewhere else. Time spent browsing and posting in OA is time not spent browsing and posting in, say, Off-A.

This wouldn't be so bad, except the cycle is self-perpetuating. Once older asexuals are posting in OA instead of (say) Off-A, Off-A tilts further towards teens since you're removing the counterbalance. Once Off-A tilts towards teens, that's going to encourage teens to post there even more, and discourage older asexuals for posting there, tilting the scales even further. It's a feedback loop.

This is why I've generally opposed specialty niches in AVEN. A Grey-A forum pulls grey-a content out of the rest of AVEN. An Aromantic forum pulls aromantic content out of the rest of AVEN. And an Older Asexuals forum pulls older content out of the rest of AVEN.

If you want to ask why AVEN is overrun by teens... well, I think we have our answer.

That said, what's done is done and we can't turn back the clock. Going forward requires a different sort of logic. Still, I see a blurring of the age-segregation lines as a positive step. It would help present a more accepting image (I still stand by my bet that most posters under 40 or so do, or did, feel awkward posting here). It would better reflect the actual nature of this community. It would forestall demands by other demographics for their own places (although that might be a losing battle at this point, we can at least try). And, by reframing the issue so it's not about age, it might help mitigate some of what I've talked about above.

All this from changing the name to something that doesn't have an explicit reference to age in the title. I don't for the life of me see why that would be so bad. If we put some thought into the name, it might improve things all around and then we'd never have to worry about changing the name again.

Or, how about this - if this forum didn't exist yet, but you knew what it was going to be like and the community that would form in it, what would you choose to call it?

[TG-G]

Dave, you are right on in your understanding of the issues from my point of view, and Sonofzeal, I like your thinking.

What follows is harsh criticism of how the site has evolved--you may wish to skip it :P

Personally, I think there needed to be a firmer leadership long ago to specify the overall tone of this site. If it was desirable to gear it towards attracting teens who are working through their angst about sexuality, then it was a job well done, because that, folks, is what it has become. If it had been desirable to create an authoritative site on asexuality however, those teen issues should have been coralled into a teen forum, seriously. I'm afraid it may be too late to change this without lots of dummy spitting.

It's very important not to just cut and run when the landscape changes. If you don't master it, you will be run off the earth. Every special interest group looks like a minority, and if it's percieved as a minority it is not the authority. Like it or not, that's life. So how come you guys submitted to being placed as a minority? Whether you were actually less in numbers or not was immaterial. The future tone of the site was at issue. You gave it over to a bunch of kids who'll be here today and gone tomorrow--which is fine if they are primarily who the site is for, but I don't think that's what anyone intended.

Anyway, we're left with the issue of providing places for all our minorities now. What I'd like to know is do they all need their own forum? The 30s mob are doing very well with a few threads. Why have we got a Grey forum and a (basically) 50+ forum? Why aren't all the minority groups running threads in one big forum called "People just like you" or something like that? (I'm sure there's a better name for it). We certainly do want to find people we can relate to, which requires some exclusiveness as Skullery said, but if we're going to have homes for some then we ought to have homes for all.

I doubt this will happen though, as I don't think anyone cares enough to make it happen. The best advertisement for a place is to keep seeing people in it, and so I'll keep posting away in the threads of my particular interest with the rest of my cronies so new people can find us :)

Dave, you are right on in your understanding of the issues from my point of view, and Sonofzeal, I like your thinking.

Thanks!

What follows is harsh criticism of how the site has evolved--you may wish to skip it :P

Personally, I think there needed to be a firmer leadership long ago to specify the overall tone of this site. If it was desirable to gear it towards attracting teens who are working through their angst about sexuality, then it was a job well done, because that, folks, is what it has become. If it had been desirable to create an authoritative site on asexuality however, those teen issues should have been coralled into a teen forum, seriously. I'm afraid it may be too late to change this without lots of dummy spitting.

It's very important not to just cut and run when the landscape changes. If you don't master it, you will be run off the earth. Every special interest group looks like a minority, and if it's percieved as a minority it is not the authority. Like it or not, that's life. So how come you guys submitted to being placed as a minority? Whether you were actually less in numbers or not was immaterial. The future tone of the site was at issue. You gave it over to a bunch of kids who'll be here today and gone tomorrow--which is fine if they are primarily who the site is for, but I don't think that's what anyone intended.

What follows is harsh inversion of said criticism - you may with to skip it. :twisted:

I honestly think the existence of this very forum is, if not causing, then at least exacerbating the problem.

Let me explain.

First, let's agree that it's pretty inevitable that we'd have a lot of throughput of teenagers. They're the ones most likely to be struggling with sexuality. It's all new for them, the social pressures of highschool are overwhelming, and there's a whole boatload of almost inevitable insecurities, or at least self-questioning, that comes with all that. Even more, that's the age group most active on the internet (hence why it's now being called "the internet generation"), and it's also the demographic most exposed to queer theory and the idea of orientations and alternate forms of sexual identity and expression. Is there any doubt we'd see legions passing through a site like this?

Now, teens aren't the only ones who are going to be finding this site, and they often aren't the ones to stick around. AVENite regulars have always been a mix of ages. Q&A and MusiRants are generally going to get mobbed by teens, but SPFA regulars are usually older, and social parts of the board have a mix.

But what happens when you take a lot of the social activity that was happening in the general boards, and move the older posters off to their own little special section?

By providing a special place for older asexuals to socialize, you're taking that socialization out of the main stream of things. This has the obvious result of decreasing the proportion of older-talk in the main social fora, and increasing the proportion of younger-talk as a result. If, for every 10 posts by teens, there were 5 posts by older asexuals, now there might be 4 or 3. Older asexuals obviously still participate there, but any activity that ends up on Older Asexuals is probably displaced from somewhere else. Time spent browsing and posting in OA is time not spent browsing and posting in, say, Off-A.

This wouldn't be so bad, except the cycle is self-perpetuating. Once older asexuals are posting in OA instead of (say) Off-A, Off-A tilts further towards teens since you're removing the counterbalance. Once Off-A tilts towards teens, that's going to encourage teens to post there even more, and discourage older asexuals for posting there, tilting the scales even further. It's a feedback loop.

This is why I've generally opposed specialty niches in AVEN. A Grey-A forum pulls grey-a content out of the rest of AVEN. An Aromantic forum pulls aromantic content out of the rest of AVEN. And an Older Asexuals forum pulls older content out of the rest of AVEN.

If you want to ask why AVEN is overrun by teens... well, I think we have our answer.

That said, what's done is done and we can't turn back the clock. Going forward requires a different sort of logic. Still, I see a blurring of the age-segregation lines as a positive step. It would help present a more accepting image (I still stand by my bet that most posters under 40 or so do, or did, feel awkward posting here). It would better reflect the actual nature of this community. It would forestall demands by other demographics for their own places (although that might be a losing battle at this point, we can at least try). And, by reframing the issue so it's not about age, it might help mitigate some of what I've talked about above.

All this from changing the name to something that doesn't have an explicit reference to age in the title. I don't for the life of me see why that would be so bad. If we put some thought into the name, it might improve things all around and then we'd never have to worry about changing the name again.

Or, how about this - if this forum didn't exist yet, but you knew what it was going to be like and the community that would form in it, what would you choose to call it?

You both took the words right out of my mouth, & have made better arguments on the issue than I ever could have. Thank you.

[Tanwen]

The forum does exist, people have worked very hard over the years and to have others now say that they were wrong, that there should have been firmer leadership etc is a kick in the teeth. It's all very well to be wise after the event - hindsight is inevitably 20/20 vision.

Sally made a valid point - regardless how 'uncomfortable' some have felt about posting in here, the fact remains - they are posting here.

[Moonchaser]

Thank you, Dave and Tanwen. I'm newish and had no idea the Older Asexuals forum has been in existence that long.

I read some of the threads Tanwen linked to, and it's interesting that the reason some people gave for wanting it had to do with the body aging - or not aging, depending on one's outlook on health and health maintenance, and maybe just dumb luck.

Many young people experience health issues or disability of some kind. My dad had chronic health issues from the time he was a very young man. They did get worse as he aged, but nevertheless they were with him all his life, as some of my chronic pain has been with me nearly all my life. I've also never liked to discuss my health issues all that much, because it causes me to focus on them more than I want to between the times when they do get to me. So, for me, physical aging isn't a point of discussion that I'm interested in.

To me the age aspect has more to do with sharing an accumulation of experience. Some younger people have had such a slew of experiences that they can relate to that as well. But I think they're unusual.

The main thing that stands out for me as an older asexual is that I spent DECADES pretending, or trying to pretend, that I wasn't. I had no idea what it was that I was, but I wanted to fit in, and I wanted a partner in life, so I did my best to fake being what my spouse wanted. That faking and denying one's own nature takes its toll over time. There are other older asexuals who didn't do the faking or pretending bit, but who I'm sure felt the same accumulation of feeling different and feeling alone in that difference, who decided to remain single whether it was what society expected or not, or managed to find companionship without sex. To me the whole relationship experience has been an underground conflict in me that I'm just not sure a person who hasn't been through that can understand. In addition to being asexual, I'm an extreme introvert, and I also suspect high-functioning autistic, meaning I don't have that many friends. I also have some other unusual experiences that set me apart from most people. So, even though as an introvert I LIKE solitude to a point, this life has in many ways felt like a very lonely journey, and at the same time has taught me to be emotionally self-reliant in a lot of ways. That's why I like having an older forum, even though I haven't bothered to post much yet, and may not post that much, but like knowing there's a special place for people who've lived with this one particular difference for a long time. So you see, for me, it's not about age so much as it's about experiences and time.

[Sally]

To me the age aspect has more to do with sharing an accumulation of experience. Some younger people have had such a slew of experiences that they can relate to that as well. But I think they're unusual.

The main thing that stands out for me as an older asexual is that I spent DECADES pretending, or trying to pretend, that I wasn't. I had no idea what it was that I was, but I wanted to fit in, and I wanted a partner in life, so I did my best to fake being what my spouse wanted. That faking and denying one's own nature takes its toll over time. There are other older asexuals who didn't do the faking or pretending bit, but who I'm sure felt the same accumulation of feeling different and feeling alone in that difference, who decided to remain single whether it was what society expected or not, or managed to find companionship without sex. To me the whole relationship experience has been an underground conflict in me that I'm just not sure a person who hasn't been through that can understand. In addition to being asexual, I'm an extreme introvert, and I also suspect high-functioning autistic, meaning I don't have that many friends. I also have some other unusual experiences that set me apart from most people. So, even though as an introvert I LIKE solitude to a point, this life has in many ways felt like a very lonely journey, and at the same time has taught me to be emotionally self-reliant in a lot of ways. That's why I like having an older forum, even though I haven't bothered to post much yet, and may not post that much, but like knowing there's a special place for people who've lived with this one particular difference for a long time. So you see, for me, it's not about age so much as it's about experiences and time.

yes yes yes yes yes!

[Guest]

Sweetex's point about having a forum of threads... sort of like Off-A... for different groups of people to find each other... is a good one. it's also true that Older Asexuals already exist, so we may as well work with that.

Personally I don't care much about word choice. I'm neither older nor asexual, but i still post in here. Sure, I may be a bit more tenacious than some, but I'm not exactly the only younger person who found this forum. I did what I expect lots of people do when they join... I peeked inside each forum to see what's up. I specifically started reading threads in here because I was curious about the opinions of older asexuals who have lived with asexuality, been married, etc, during their lives... having come here myself in a relationship where neither of us knew anything of asexuality, I found that perspective far more enlightening than reading "am I asexual" posts. Sally, Tanwen, Bookcase, Olivier, and Lady Girl probably contributed more to my understanding of what it's like living... really living, not just questioning... asexuality. So, you know, some people maybe don't peek around in all the forums, but if they don't, it's because they don't want to. I doubt many people are literally terrified to click on "older asexuals" in case a big fly swatter jumps out of the screen and pops them just for looking. My guess is that people don't post in here because after they've opened it up and looked around they didn't find anything of interest. Just like how I look in Off-A, but rarely find anything I want to post about.

This is off topic, but if the older asexual forum is having a crisis, I can't imagine what the Grays are doing. Do you guys go into the gray forum much? It's a hot mess!! Whatever "gray" used to mean, it seems that it's now become the forum of sexuals who just don't like sexual culture much... it has completely changed since its inception, and didn't it just start in, like, September?

Anyway. Things evolve and change. No one is kicking us young oldsters out, so for that I'm thankful and I'm happy to continue on in everyone's good graces. I prefer to assume that all people act with full capacity and efficacy, so if others aren't posting in here I tend to assume there's a reason beyond confusion. Because really, this isn't soooo confusing. And if they can't find their way to the 30-something's thread because of fear, they have far bigger problems than the name of this forum.

[Tanwen]

Moonchaser, thanks so much for that post, I'm glad you made it and hope you'll feel confident enough to make more in the future. I can definitely relate to the faking it and trying to fit in and from Sally's 'bolding' she does too. :)

[test account]

What follows is harsh inversion of said criticism - you may with to skip it. :twisted:

I honestly think the existence of this very forum is, if not causing, then at least exacerbating the problem.

Let me explain.

First, let's agree that it's pretty inevitable that we'd have a lot of throughput of teenagers. They're the ones most likely to be struggling with sexuality. It's all new for them, the social pressures of highschool are overwhelming, and there's a whole boatload of almost inevitable insecurities, or at least self-questioning, that comes with all that. Even more, that's the age group most active on the internet (hence why it's now being called "the internet generation"), and it's also the demographic most exposed to queer theory and the idea of orientations and alternate forms of sexual identity and expression. Is there any doubt we'd see legions passing through a site like this?

Now, teens aren't the only ones who are going to be finding this site, and they often aren't the ones to stick around. AVENite regulars have always been a mix of ages. Q&A and MusiRants are generally going to get mobbed by teens, but SPFA regulars are usually older, and social parts of the board have a mix.

But what happens when you take a lot of the social activity that was happening in the general boards, and move the older posters off to their own little special section?

By providing a special place for older asexuals to socialize, you're taking that socialization out of the main stream of things. This has the obvious result of decreasing the proportion of older-talk in the main social fora, and increasing the proportion of younger-talk as a result. If, for every 10 posts by teens, there were 5 posts by older asexuals, now there might be 4 or 3. Older asexuals obviously still participate there, but any activity that ends up on Older Asexuals is probably displaced from somewhere else. Time spent browsing and posting in OA is time not spent browsing and posting in, say, Off-A.

This wouldn't be so bad, except the cycle is self-perpetuating. Once older asexuals are posting in OA instead of (say) Off-A, Off-A tilts further towards teens since you're removing the counterbalance. Once Off-A tilts towards teens, that's going to encourage teens to post there even more, and discourage older asexuals for posting there, tilting the scales even further. It's a feedback loop.

This is why I've generally opposed specialty niches in AVEN. A Grey-A forum pulls grey-a content out of the rest of AVEN. An Aromantic forum pulls aromantic content out of the rest of AVEN. And an Older Asexuals forum pulls older content out of the rest of AVEN.

If you want to ask why AVEN is overrun by teens... well, I think we have our answer.

That said, what's done is done and we can't turn back the clock. Going forward requires a different sort of logic. Still, I see a blurring of the age-segregation lines as a positive step. It would help present a more accepting image (I still stand by my bet that most posters under 40 or so do, or did, feel awkward posting here). It would better reflect the actual nature of this community. It would forestall demands by other demographics for their own places (although that might be a losing battle at this point, we can at least try). And, by reframing the issue so it's not about age, it might help mitigate some of what I've talked about above.

All this from changing the name to something that doesn't have an explicit reference to age in the title. I don't for the life of me see why that would be so bad. If we put some thought into the name, it might improve things all around and then we'd never have to worry about changing the name again.

Or, how about this - if this forum didn't exist yet, but you knew what it was going to be like and the community that would form in it, what would you choose to call it?

What you say makes a lot of sense to me.

[test account]

This is off topic, but if the older asexual forum is having a crisis, I can't imagine what the Grays are doing. Do you guys go into the gray forum much? It's a hot mess!! Whatever "gray" used to mean, it seems that it's now become the forum of sexuals who just don't like sexual culture much... it has completely changed since its inception, and didn't it just start in, like, September?

I only went in there once I think to ask a question. It always seemed to me a bit of a silly idea to start that forum, because seriously what is the difference between a sexual who doesn't like casual sex, and a Grey or demi? I cannot see it. That's my personal point of view. I don't like casual sex, I can't feel interested enough to get touchy feely with someone if we don't have an emotional connection, but to me that's just my personality, not my orientation. I'm hetero--that's my orientation. I kind of got the impression the Grey forum was a place for repressed or shy sexuals to get off on TMI ;)

[Midnight Lady]

This is off topic, but if the older asexual forum is having a crisis, I can't imagine what the Grays are doing. Do you guys go into the gray forum much? It's a hot mess!! Whatever "gray" used to mean, it seems that it's now become the forum of sexuals who just don't like sexual culture much... it has completely changed since its inception, and didn't it just start in, like, September?

I only went in there once I think to ask a question. It always seemed to me a bit of a silly idea to start that forum, because seriously what is the difference between a sexual who doesn't like casual sex, and a Grey or demi? I cannot see it. That's my personal point of view. I don't like casual sex, I can't feel interested enough to get touchy feely with someone if we don't have an emotional connection, but to me that's just my personality, not my orientation. I'm hetero--that's my orientation. I kind of got the impression the Grey forum was a place for repressed or shy sexuals to get off on TMI ;)

OFF topic continues:

OMG! You have just dismissed my orientation??????? How dare you?????????? :twisted:

Just kidding though. :) I don't care if demisexuality is orientation or not. If the label helps guys to understand that they won't get sex with me on the first (and in my case, even on the 10th) date, then I don't mind using it. :) After all, it is much more intriguing to say "I am demisexual..." than to say "See, man, I am not going to sleep with you till I feel comfortable and secure enough - and I don't know when that moment happens if it happens at all! So, if you don't want to waste your time, the door is open!". Too wordy... :)

[test account]

This is off topic, but if the older asexual forum is having a crisis, I can't imagine what the Grays are doing. Do you guys go into the gray forum much? It's a hot mess!! Whatever "gray" used to mean, it seems that it's now become the forum of sexuals who just don't like sexual culture much... it has completely changed since its inception, and didn't it just start in, like, September?

I only went in there once I think to ask a question. It always seemed to me a bit of a silly idea to start that forum, because seriously what is the difference between a sexual who doesn't like casual sex, and a Grey or demi? I cannot see it. That's my personal point of view. I don't like casual sex, I can't feel interested enough to get touchy feely with someone if we don't have an emotional connection, but to me that's just my personality, not my orientation. I'm hetero--that's my orientation. I kind of got the impression the Grey forum was a place for repressed or shy sexuals to get off on TMI ;)

OFF topic continues:

OMG! You have just dismissed my orientation??????? How dare you?????????? :twisted:

Just kidding though. :) I don't care if demisexuality is orientation or not. If the label helps guys to understand that they won't get sex with me on the first (and in my case, even on the 10th) date, then I don't mind using it. :) After all, it is much more intriguing to say "I am demisexual..." than to say "See, man, I am not going to sleep with you till I feel comfortable and secure enough - and I don't know when that moment happens if it happens at all! So, if you don't want to waste your time, the door is open!". Too wordy... :)

Hehehehe maybe it's more fun to say nothing and keep them guessing? :P

[Sally]

Or, how about this - if this forum didn't exist yet, but you knew what it was going to be like and the community that would form in it, what would you choose to call it?

I would call it Older Asexuals. Because that's exactly what it expresses for me. Older asexuals have had the experiences that I have, and sometimes I really want to talk with that peer group.

And frankly, I can't see that many -- or any -- older asexuals are wanting to change the name. So why isn't our opinion important?

By the way, there's an extremely busy 30-or-thereabouts pinned thread on the Older Asexuals forum. So obviously the 30-or-thereabouts people 1) aren't feeling deprived of a place to post and 2) don't seem to be so upset about it being in the Older Asexuals forum that they're boycotting their thread.

[Tanwen]

*It isn't pinned at the moment, Sally, because I don't think I've been asked to do it ;) *

[Beachwalker]

So obviously the 30-or-thereabouts people 1) aren't feeling deprived of a place to post and 2) don't seem to be so upset about it being in the Older Asexuals forum that they're boycotting their thread.

Why would I boycott it, the point is this is where I feel comfortable posting, this is where I belong. I don't belong hanging out with a crowd of mostly teenagers. New members are not necessarily familiar with the demographics here and if they are 30 or 40 they may not realize the older forum may be the most applicable forum for them as well.

[test account]

*It isn't pinned at the moment, Sally, because I don't think I've been asked to do it ;) *

I didn't know we could ask, but it hasn't seemed necessary anyway as we keep it at the top through posting so much. I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to pin it...... ;)

[Cakey]

Yay for pinning the thread, what a good idea... :)

[Tanwen]

Done :)

It's best if we don't have too many pinned threads. At some point you may decide to close it and open a Part Deux, if so, let me know and I'll unpin it (and obviously pin the new one :) )

*See, I'm not completely unreasonable - just 99% :lol: *

[test account]

Thank you Tanwen!