Gut punched

[Liara]

And sometimes you are in the second situation and there is nothing you can do. Only staying in the limbo. Trying to live without any intimacy you don't really want to build with someone you care about but no longer are in love with.

[Olallieberry]

4 hours ago, Ceebs said:

hopefully that's ok @Olallieberry! 

Make yourself at home

[Windmills of My Mind]

8 hours ago, Ceebs said:

Some more afterthoughts... 😅 Apparently this topic has made me do a lot of thinking about relationship dynamics, hopefully that's ok @Olallieberry! I know I get long-winded, but I don't think I've reached PanFicto levels of long-windedness yet (a former member who asked for her account to be nuked a year or so ago and was known for her epic-length -- but very insightful -- posts).

 

-  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  -

 

snip snip

 

-  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  - 8< -  -  -  -  -  -

 

Ok I'm done now. 😅

Can we please frame this and put it up the wall here at SPFA?

[AloneTogether]

On 1/20/2024 at 9:43 AM, Ceebs said:

It highlights to me the difference between the sexual people who are in the overall wrong relationship in multiple ways and sex is just one of the mismatches, and the sexuals who come here who truly are with someone who's a good match for them but the issue of sex is causing problems. Within the first category there may certainly be mutual caring, life companionship, just generally liking each other as people... but it's not 'in love', essentially. That's very much the position I was in. Having the option to openly have sex with someone else while still in a relationship with my ex-husband wouldn't have made me feel closer to him in any other way whatsoever, it would've probably made me profoundly sad and want love and companionship and a whole life with a totally different person, as well as sex. It would've cemented my need to be done with the relationship, because what I had was just a friendship. And friendship is valuable of course (and essential to me in a romantic/sexual relationship) and he's a great guy, but those things don't necessarily make it the right connection in every other way. And then from what I understand of Tele's previous marriage, although he initially perceived it as a 'lack of sex' problem because he was... well, let's just say astronomically bad at understanding his own needs and emotions before he went to therapy, any type of openly non-monogamous situation with his ex-wife would've ultimately ended with him looking for someone not just for a shag, but for love and emotional connection as well, since I gather his emotional needs weren't being met any better than they would've been if he was married to a houseplant. He was deeply lonely in that sense. So we were in the same boat even though our exes aren't that similar in personality -- needing a different relationship entirely.

 

What you and your wife have sounds like a truly good connection to me, a marriage with other needs besides sexual intimacy that do get met. You seem like a good team even when things get difficult at times, and when you write about her, the love and your desire to stay with her are apparent. So your reaction to having the freedom to find other sexual partners makes sense to me. You and your wife are showing care and love for each other, and respect for each other's needs, in the way you're navigating this. All of which fosters emotional closeness. I'm glad things are going well.  

@Olallieberry I’ve followed much of your story through your posts and I think your situation is so much like my own, although I’m at a much earlier stage in the story. I have tried to raise the issue of sex with my wife, and left the ball in her court to make a time for a proper conversation, but of course she hasn’t done so. The status quo works for her. 
 

As @Ceebs said, I'm in the exact position she described where my wife and I are very much in love with each other and are great team in every way but that one. 
 

I’m getting some therapy, and hope to soon take the bull by the horns and have the conversation. I hope to get as good a resolution as @Olallieberry has achieved. 

[Ceebs]

On 1/21/2024 at 11:13 PM, Windmills of My Mind said:

Can we please frame this and put it up the wall here at SPFA?

Just noticed this cos I suddenly got anxious that someone (not Ollie, just anyone really) was gonna yell at me for posting too much so I buggered off for a bit. 😅

[Windmills of My Mind]

6 hours ago, Ceebs said:

Just noticed this cos I suddenly got anxious that someone (not Ollie, just anyone really) was gonna yell at me for posting too much so I buggered off for a bit. 😅

Don't you dare buggering off just for posting too much. There is no such thing as Ceebs posting too much or too long. Any other reason as per your own preference and judgement. Other than that: keep it coming.

 

Please (added that for good measure 🙃)

Alternatively if some spanking is required to get you to keep posting: here's the bat  🏏. Ask Tele to do the work.

[tragiclover]

On 1/21/2024 at 11:13 AM, Ceebs said:

But in a loose way, that's something I've noticed here over the years. 'Right' relationship with a sexual mismatch vs. 'wrong' relationship (even if it's still 'good enough') where sex is one of many issues.

Having lived for so long with the sexual mismatch issue, it's hard for me to know what would happen if that were no longer an issue. What if we came to a loving agreement that works for both of us? Would that remove the tension and grief and make everything else between us so much better? Or would other compatibility problems between us that I don't focus on now start bubbling up since sex isn't overwhelming them? I think I'd be so grateful to be free of this burden. But people soon forget. When I'm afraid I'm going to die, just living seems like a wonder, but the next day I'll be complaining about the weather.

[Olallieberry]

My wife asked how a recent "get together" went.

 

I didn't know what she was talking about at first - because that wasn't what I had called it, and because it was like two weeks ago. I use language like "going to meet someone."

 

Anyway, so, I told her a little about it. It didn't work out with the person I met, that time (we didn't like each other enough to plan to have sex).

 

I was surprised that she expressed an interest. I think I sort of appreciate it. Besides showing me that she seems un-hung-up and unthreatened about it all, it seems like I might not necessarily have to keep this area of my life 100% to myself. I mean, we talk about everything else, at least a little, you know?

[Olallieberry]

It's really weird being non-monogamously married. Not disturbing or problematic, just unfamiliar and surprising.

 

I've had two "dates," one with a woman and one with a man. "Dates" is in quotes because neither was a "dating" situation. Both were actually a pair of meetings, one brief face-to-face introduction to find out if we even like each other at all, and after agreeing on time and place, one no-strings, no-repeat booty call.

 

I've been surprised at how many women have shown interest in an up-front "no-strings" get-together. And at how little they react to my transparency about being married. (Men? No surprise at all.)

 

I'm too busy to be doing this a lot - I'm in school again and have classes at night, and work on the weekend. I'm probably done until summer.

 

It's weird how it felt to be in an actively-looking position (before school started again) while still married. One of my two co-workers who knows about my situation marveled about that - "it's so weird you're like acting single but you're still married!" (And not cheating. She didn't say that part but didn't need to.)

 

The other weird thing has been finding myself kind of presenting as - I don't know, poly-lite? Polyam isn't what I'm into or looking for, but one of my dates was polyam and pigeonholed me there too, plus the other one of my two co-workers who knows about my situation is also someone with polyam experience (though she's single now) and she also clearly relates to me as a fellow polyam even though I... I what. I don't resist it, exactly, or protest, I just don't identify with it. Because I'm not looking for looove, I guess?

 

But that's another weird part. I am in the middle of an identity change. I am discovering new habits, new ways of relating to people.

 

Hell, I'm learning new dating skills. Ones which I suck at because I never was deliberately looking for casual sex before in my life. So it's weird to be deliberately putting effort into practicing different conversation skills and flirting skills than I ever even really practiced in the past. It's been more than 20 years since I was single and looking, and for the 15 years before that, I did have a minor amount of casual sex but almost by accident, you know? True "get-lucky" type encounters, not deliberate pursuits and "scores." Otherwise I was basically serially monogamous and didn't get together with any of those long-term partners via "standard" dating habits. All of those pairings were situational, fostered by circumstances.

 

My wife is the one exception to that. (Kind of? Maybe not even really?) We did meet as singles looking for partners on a dating app (Match.com, fwiw). But the way we used that service and got together was really serendipitous - it wasn't a calculated series of match-ups, playing the field until meeting someone good enough for a life partner. It was a real right-place-right-time thing, and we clicked strongly without all the contrived "dating" conventions.

 

So yeah, now I've got this weird double-life thing going on. Not really - that makes it sound like something deceitful and secret is happening. But the feeling is there. I'm married but behaving like a single in certain ways.

 

Strange but fun. I had seven weeks off from school to explore this, and I don't regret any of it. Neither does my wife. The "transference" I mentioned several weeks ago is real. Getting my sex on with (basically) strangers* with zero attachment and no repeats has somehow allowed me to reclaim the best parts of our connection and appreciate what we have together, who we are to each other.

 

* Don't be alarmed. Safe practices and STD testing are part of this picture.

[Liara]

Interesting. Do you feel like it "satisfies" you?

[Traveler40]

8 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

It's really weird being non-monogamously married. Not disturbing or problematic, just unfamiliar and surprising.

 

I've had two "dates," one with a woman and one with a man. "Dates" is in quotes because neither was a "dating" situation. Both were actually a pair of meetings, one brief face-to-face introduction to find out if we even like each other at all, and after agreeing on time and place, one no-strings, no-repeat booty call.

 

I've been surprised at how many women have shown interest in an up-front "no-strings" get-together. And at how little they react to my transparency about being married. (Men? No surprise at all.)

 

I'm too busy to be doing this a lot - I'm in school again and have classes at night, and work on the weekend. I'm probably done until summer.

 

It's weird how it felt to be in an actively-looking position (before school started again) while still married. One of my two co-workers who knows about my situation marveled about that - "it's so weird you're like acting single but you're still married!" (And not cheating. She didn't say that part but didn't need to.)

 

The other weird thing has been finding myself kind of presenting as - I don't know, poly-lite? Polyam isn't what I'm into or looking for, but one of my dates was polyam and pigeonholed me there too, plus the other one of my two co-workers who knows about my situation is also someone with polyam experience (though she's single now) and she also clearly relates to me as a fellow polyam even though I... I what. I don't resist it, exactly, or protest, I just don't identify with it. Because I'm not looking for looove, I guess?

 

But that's another weird part. I am in the middle of an identity change. I am discovering new habits, new ways of relating to people.

 

Hell, I'm learning new dating skills. Ones which I suck at because I never was deliberately looking for casual sex before in my life. So it's weird to be deliberately putting effort into practicing different conversation skills and flirting skills than I ever even really practiced in the past. It's been more than 20 years since I was single and looking, and for the 15 years before that, I did have a minor amount of casual sex but almost by accident, you know? True "get-lucky" type encounters, not deliberate pursuits and "scores." Otherwise I was basically serially monogamous and didn't get together with any of those long-term partners via "standard" dating habits. All of those pairings were situational, fostered by circumstances.

 

My wife is the one exception to that. (Kind of? Maybe not even really?) We did meet as singles looking for partners on a dating app (Match.com, fwiw). But the way we used that service and got together was really serendipitous - it wasn't a calculated series of match-ups, playing the field until meeting someone good enough for a life partner. It was a real right-place-right-time thing, and we clicked strongly without all the contrived "dating" conventions.

 

So yeah, now I've got this weird double-life thing going on. Not really - that makes it sound like something deceitful and secret is happening. But the feeling is there. I'm married but behaving like a single in certain ways.

 

Strange but fun. I had seven weeks off from school to explore this, and I don't regret any of it. Neither does my wife. The "transference" I mentioned several weeks ago is real. Getting my sex on with (basically) strangers* with zero attachment and no repeats has somehow allowed me to reclaim the best parts of our connection and appreciate what we have together, who we are to each other.

 

* Don't be alarmed. Safe practices and STD testing are part of this picture.

This takes me back 7’years. The only major difference I felt (beyond wanting love with my sex) is that the stage you’re in was exhausting for me. I was sleeping only a few hours a night and a Zombie during the day. It took so much energy.
 

Anyhow, I love that you’re documenting the itty bitties. Oh, that strange feeling of being married yet acting single? It never really leaves you. While fun, sometimes it’s also sad. Pros and cons - making the most of it always has both.

 

Thanks for the update. 

[Olallieberry]

13 hours ago, Liara said:

Interesting. Do you feel like it "satisfies" you?

Regarding the casual sex, not completely, but absolutely it’s a lot better than nothing and I can live with the shortcoming as long as I can know that this is on the table.

 

Regarding what it’s doing to restore my relationship with my wife, it’s very, very satisfying.

[Olallieberry]

5 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

wanting love with my sex

I do want love with my sex, but I can live with it this way.

[Liara]

25 minutes ago, Olallieberry said:

Regarding the casual sex, not completely, but absolutely it’s a lot better than nothing and I can live with the shortcoming as long as I can know that this is on the table.

 

Regarding what it’s doing to restore my relationship with my wife, it’s very, very satisfying.

Really happy for you!!

[The Sword]

On 1/21/2024 at 8:13 PM, Ceebs said:

Some more afterthoughts... 😅 Apparently this topic has made me do a lot of thinking about relationship dynamics, hopefully that's ok @Olallieberry! I know I get long-winded, but I don't think I've reached PanFicto levels of long-windedness yet (a former member who asked for her account to be nuked a year or so ago and was known for her epic-length -- but very insightful -- posts). 

[etc.]

Ficto'd have been proud of you for that one, Ceebs. 

 

The Sword grew colder on them for some of their political views, by the end... but damn, AVEN definitely is not and will never be the same without them.

[Ceebs]

23 minutes ago, The Sword said:

Ficto'd have been proud of you for that one, Ceebs. 

 

The Sword grew colder on them for some of their political views, by the end... but damn, AVEN definitely is not and will never be the same without them.

Yeah, agreed.

 

We occasionally used to chat on Facebook messenger, but haven't for a couple years now. Hopefully all is well.

[Olallieberry]

My wife asked me how things are going and she said this* is weird. It was a brief conversation because it was right before I had to go somewhere.

 

I agreed it was weird, she asked “how,” and I described some of the stuff I posted here a few weeks ago (Feb 14).

 

Gonna make some time to talk more with her about it, and ask her “how” too and see how she’s feeling about it.

 

* For any newcomers to the thread, “this” means ENM, we’ve been trying it out since late last year.

[Liara]

It seems she thinks a lot about that...

[Traveler40]

2 hours ago, Liara said:

It seems she thinks a lot about that...

Based on what?

 

 

and, what’s the point being made?

[Olallieberry]

4 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Based on what?

I think @Liara's picking up on me posting twice now that my wife has asked how things are going. Scroll up to Jan. 31 and now this.

 

I mean, it is "a lot" compared to anything else I've posted about anything she has said recently. And a deeper check-in is called for. So far I have just answered her questions at face value and taken her interest as just, y'know, casual partner chit-chat, but that's probably naïve and there's certainly more thoughts in her head about this than I've been hearing.

 

I'm not alarmed but a deeper talk about this is overdue. She has been a good sport and I appreciate her being permissive, and I show it, but I haven't really created space for hearing her quiet feelings.

 

I can already hear someone piping up to say "you shouldn't have to, if she has any then that's her prerogative to show them," but a person like that might not have any idea how a partnership - well, fuck it, I'll own it, this partnership - really works and the value of proactively encouraging feelings to be expressed.

[AloneTogether]

10 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

I can already hear someone piping up to say "you shouldn't have to, if she has any then that's her prerogative to show them," but a person like that might not have any idea how a partnership - well, fuck it, I'll own it, this partnership - really works and the value of proactively encouraging feelings to be expressed.

I’d agree with you. That’s exactly what a partnership is supposed to be. It’s never just one persons job, it’s always both. No that doesn’t mean one partner can complain if the other doesn’t know what’s in their head. None of us are mind readers (as far as I know!), but nor does it mean we can stick our heads in the sand and make assumptions that’d be much simpler just to check by asking. 

[Traveler40]

On 3/7/2024 at 7:28 PM, Olallieberry said:

my wife has asked how things are going.

I had the exact same experience. There’s no hidden meaning to it, but I appreciate your deeper dive.

 

In our case, my husband checked in for a few reasons:

 

1. To show support, however uncomfortable for himself. 
 

2. Out of curiosity and perhaps a little fear of the unknown.

 

3. To be in the loop, but out of it. (Hope

that makes sense).

 

This is both new and unknown. With patience and communication you’ll work it out which you already know.

 

Thanks for the updates. 

[Olallieberry]

11 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

in the loop, but out of it. (Hope that makes sense). 

Perfectly!

[Olallieberry]

Updating my story with a couple of comments I made today on another thread, describing my current attitude and behavior:

 

11 hours ago, Olallieberry said:

My present attitude is this: Nowadays when I'm out and about in the world outside my home, instead of behaving like I'm unavailable, I present myself as approachable, friendly, engaging, attentive, and witty. I basically act like anything could happen with people I meet. And I pay attention to signs of availability shown by other people too, instead of either ignoring them or not looking for them at all. Back when fidelity was still a concern, I used to completely ignore these, and even said No when people were very very forward. I don't necessarily have to do that anymore.

 

This works for me because between school, my work and other activities, I do meet a lot of people. Basically I'm just satisfied with being unfettered and available for these chance encounters. I'm still committed to expecting no-strings and being transparent about that and about my marriage. I have fun flirting, making clear that for me, the expectations and stakes are very low, near zero. It's fun anyway. I think it's even more fun than trying to flirt when stakes and expectations are not low. I've gotten phone numbers three times since last fall. I've only used one of them, and it didn't lead to a tryst, but it could in the future. We're friendly and continue to flirt, now and then. She's also married.

 

3 minutes ago, Olallieberry said:

my eyes were completely closed to [extramarital people and prospects] until my wife and I re-negotiated fidelity. Once I got the pass and opened my eyes and mind, and started behaving like a somewhat-available person, I have seen a lot more options than I ever suspected were out there. And when I say options, I don't just mean pretty people, I mean pretty people who have presented themselves as open to something with a married man for no strings. I can't make these opportunities all happen, but it has very much buoyed my spirits and my confidence that [ENM is] not a false hope.

 

A really interesting feeling I have now is the feeling that I have all the time in the world. I've been married almost 20 years, at this point I expect another 30, easy. One might think that after many years of sexless marriage and the catharsis of earning permission to roam extramaritally, one might desperately dash off to make up for lost time, or release the kraken of lust after years of detention. But no, for me it has really eased in to a comfortable and non-desperate contentment around having the consent of my wife, and taking it easy. I expect many opportunities and don't feel the need to spend my time prowling for them.

 

[jinglebell24]

Have you ever been in an ENM? 

 

Please don't use ENM just to replace something you find missing. Also, please don't try to convince someone to accept something you find important or want in a relationship.

 

It sounds like moving on and seperating is best.

 

Speaking from experience, specifically being force to accept my ex-spouse's desire and other partner, she will resent you and you will hurt her significantly by forcing her to live her life OK with it. To you it is an 'ENM', but to her it is not.  

 

Did you two marry knowing an open marriage was something you both wanted? It is OK to realize later you want an open marriage and move on to find a spouse who is also Ok with it. You will be much happier and she will not have to live her life compromising who she is and what she had thought she had hoped to be with.

[Ceebs]

I think that's fairly rude and insensitive. You don't know Ollie or his wife or very much at all about their relationship, and therefore can't make a declaration like that. Your past experiences are yours alone, and whilst entirely valid of course, don't automatically apply to everyone else.

[Traveler40]

12 hours ago, Ceebs said:

I think that's fairly rude and insensitive. You don't know Ollie or his wife or very much at all about their relationship, and therefore can't make a declaration like that. Your past experiences are yours alone, and whilst entirely valid of course, don't automatically apply to everyone else.

Precisely! 

 

12 hours ago, jinglebell24 said:

Did you two marry knowing an open marriage was something you both wanted?

This displays a complete lack of understanding or awareness of the whole situation. 

 

Most didn’t marry understanding asexuality was a thing, let alone pertinent to their partnership. 
 

Judgy with no basis is never a good look! 

[daveb]

9 hours ago, Ceebs said:

You don't know Ollie or his wife or very much at all about their relationship, and therefore can't make a declaration like that. Your past experiences are yours alone, and whilst entirely valid of course, don't automatically apply to everyone else.

agreed

 

Each person/relationship has to find out what works for them. Outsiders are not really in any position to judge. To me, the main thing is if all parties who are actually involved in it are happy, satisfied, and feel cared for/loved/supported. From looking in on various threads here, it seems there are many different ways that work, but not all ways work for everyone. To each their own, as they say. And kudos to those who can manage something that works for them, even if it evolves over time (as I would think would be commonly the case in a living dynamic relationship)!

[Vorps]

12 hours ago, jinglebell24 said:

To you it is an 'ENM', but to her it is not.  

I dont think you know Ollie's wife well enough to make this statement. Or at all, as a matter of fact.

 

I'm sorry your experience with it was a bad one. Claiming it wont work for anyone based upon your singular experience is, imo, self centered and unhelpful. And rude, as Ceebs pointed out.

 

A helpful use of your experience would be to relay your what happened. What broke down/didnt work about your situation that other people entering in to ENM should know about? How did it feel unethical to you? How did things deteriorate to the point of splitting up? What, if anything, would you have done differently?

 

People can apply those answers to their own situations or go into ENM with their eyes more open to hurdles.

 

But really that should be its own thread, rather than posting a harshly biased 'you should just split' on a thread that details how significantly their marriage has improved with the introduction of ENM. The latter is really just bad manners.

[Olallieberry]

13 hours ago, jinglebell24 said:

It is OK to realize later you want an open marriage and move on to find a spouse who is also Ok with it.

She is.

 

You either haven't read what I've written, or, you think I'm just lying. I'm sorry for your own bad experience with non-monogamy - which was clearly not "ethical" non-monogamy, in your case. It must have been very ugly. But don't project it onto us.

 

If, over time, my wife comes to not be OK with it, the agreement and the arrangement will end. If I move on, it isn't because I want an open relationship, it's because I want a sexual relationship. I don't know how you missed that. You either didn't read, or you think I'm lying.

 

13 hours ago, jinglebell24 said:

You will be much happier and she will not have to live her life compromising who she is and what she had thought she had hoped to be with.

You say this like she's the only one that is happening to.

 

And you miss the fact that she is no longer compromising "who she is." This is an arrangement in which she doesn't have to act in a way she'd rather not. I mean, it's not that I'd even participate in any arrangement where she did, anyway, but we're talking about this one.

 

You also miss the fact that, like a lot of asexuals who don't discover it until later in life, she didn't consciously think and hope to be in a sexless marriage 20 years ago.

 

Worst of all, you really seem to assume bad faith, saying this like I have tricked or trapped her into something for my own twisted benefit. ENM is a last resort for me, not something I surprised her with after misrepresenting my orientation.

 

For someone who overthinks as much as you do (I've seen your other posts), it doesn't seem to take you anywhere smart. I'm not assuming bad faith, I'm just saying you failed to "figure us out."

 

Check in with us when you've been married for 20 years, and let us know if you didn't experience any surprises or compromises of any kind.