Lonely and tired

[Liara]

Today my gf wanted to show me her garden (of course, that's mine too but... mainly that's hers). She loves her garden. She knows every plant, every flower, she takes care of everything and loves to see every insect or lizard who stay in this safe green place made for them. She was excited to show me everything, as usual when she asks me to come with her in the garden. That's her pride, her joy.

And I finally understand that's a part of her own intimacy to show me it. That's one of her love language to share it with me.

I wanted to kiss her to show her how much I like that, I appreciate her gift. But I didn't. That's not a language she understands. I find it sad, I can understand her love language but she can't understand and accept mine... So I thanked her and told her how beautiful it is.

[Liara]

Nearly one year later...
Nothing change in our relationship but a lot in my head. I finally understood that I don't have any sexual attraction for her since a long time but I also have no more romantic feeling. No sex, no physical intimacy, no emotional connection (I just can't in this situation)... she is my best friend and I love her. But not romantically. For a long time.
She told me I can touch her, hug her... but I don't. It feels not right for me. I don't do that with friends. Even the very light kisses on the lips we do before sleep, I don't really like them but I do them (that's not a big effort and she likes that).
The past months have been really hard for me, big depression, really dark thoughts, but my new antidepressant works a lot better than the others so I'm better now. But I know I'm feeling better only thanks to a treatment so... not great.
I know I'm lucky. I have enough money to live, a work I love even if it's mentally hard, a partner that takes care of me, a place to live where I'm safe... That's a lot better than for a lot of people around the world, world who is collapsing each day more and more.
I have no hope for the future. Nothing will go better. My relationship is comfortable and convenient, and I have to do with it. I'm a lucky one.

[Ceebs]

I really get a lot of that, even though I'm not with my ex anymore. That was more or less my line of thinking when we were still together. My sexual and romantic feelings were not super strong even at the time we got married, and I think they died off completely over the following year or so after that. My ex-husband did like hugs and cuddles though, and because we had a history of that type of physical intimacy, somehow (for a while, anyway) it didn't feel weird continuing that to some degree. I wouldn't do that with someone who'd only ever been a platonic friend, though. But there was no kissing; that would've felt way too intimate somehow and sounded quite off-putting and awkward and... well, inappropriate. Would've been like kissing a brother.

 

But yes, I had -- still have -- a very good friend, I had a comfortable life companion, someone who understood my weirdness and struggles, someone who took care of me (and still helps me out since he's the only person nearby at the moment, until Tele is able to find a job here), and a generally stable life. Very much get where you're coming from there. I took a huge and, in retrospect, incredibly stupid risk in partially upending that for an unhealthy (mostly) long-distance relationship with my ex-girlfriend, with the very high likelihood that it wouldn't work out (although I put some metaphorical blinders on and convinced myself it would, somehow... ah, the magical 'somehow' 🙄). And I did that I guess for two reasons. One, for a brief period of time, sincerely believing I might just be gay. And two, although not in a romantic relationship, my ex-husband and I continued to maintain a roommate/family style connection, and I suppose I naively thought that if things didn't work out with my ex-girlfriend, especially as he repeatedly expressed he had no interest in finding another romantic relationship (like, with an asexual partner I imagine), we could just be platonic life partners.

 

Anywho. I've babbled about all that before. I am beyond lucky that I did indeed find someone else, because I was convinced no one else would want me, with all my complications (and my ex-girlfriend told me they wouldn't lol, so 🙃). Honestly I'm aware that most people still wouldn't want to get involved with me, so it's bizarrely fortunate that I've had relationships, past and present, with two very kind and accepting people.

 

12 hours ago, Liara said:

I have no hope for the future. Nothing will go better. My relationship is comfortable and convenient, and I have to do with it. I'm a lucky one.

The contrast in the statements there... that hit me. But I know what you mean, and I know that all of those things can be true at the same time. Sometimes it depends on perspective in any given moment, sometimes they can weirdly coexist and it makes sense. One can be fortunate and have good things to be grateful for, and still be hurting and feel hopeless at the same time. I know from things you've written before about your situation that you're very unlikely to be looking at changing anything, and I understand why.

 

I'm glad the new antidepressants are helping. Nothing wrong with feeling better due to treatment. Sometimes medication is absolutely necessary and it's what helps keep someone afloat. Have you been up to any of the stuff I recall you mentioning before, like doing art (I think?).

 

*Hugs* if you want 'em. It's a tough position to be in. ❤️

[Liara]

8 minutes ago, Ceebs said:

I really get a lot of that, even though I'm not with my ex anymore. That was more or less my line of thinking when we were still together. My sexual and romantic feelings were not super strong even at the time we got married, and I think they died off completely over the following year or so after that. My ex-husband did like hugs and cuddles though, and because we had a history of that type of physical intimacy, somehow (for a while, anyway) it didn't feel weird continuing that to some degree. I wouldn't do that with someone who'd only ever been a platonic friend, though. But there was no kissing; that would've felt way too intimate somehow and sounded quite off-putting and awkward and... well, inappropriate. Would've been like kissing a brother.

 

But yes, I had -- still have -- a very good friend, I had a comfortable life companion, someone who understood my weirdness and struggles, someone who took care of me (and still helps me out since he's the only person nearby at the moment), and a generally stable life. Very much get where you're coming from there. I took a huge and, in retrospect, incredibly stupid risk in partially upending that for an unhealthy (mostly) long-distance relationship with my ex-girlfriend, with the very high likelihood that it wouldn't work out (although I put some metaphorical blinders on and convinced myself it would, somehow... ah, the magical 'somehow' 🙄). And I did that I guess for two reasons. One, for a brief period of time, sincerely believing I might just be gay. And two, although not in a romantic relationship, my ex-husband and I continued to maintain a roommate/family style connection, and I suppose I naively thought that if things didn't work out with my ex-girlfriend, especially as he repeatedly expressed he had no interest in finding another romantic relationship (like, with an asexual partner I imagine), we could just be platonic life partners.

 

Anywho. I've babbled about all that before. I am beyond lucky that I did indeed find someone else, because I was convinced no one else would want me, with all my complications (and my ex-girlfriend told me they wouldn't lol, so 🙃). Honestly I'm aware that most people still wouldn't want to get involved with me, so it's bizarrely fortunate that I've had relationships, past and present, with two very kind and accepting people.

That's exactly that. The only thing who can make me move from this situation would be to meet someone... but I'm convinced it's just impossible, with my way of life and my health problems (nobody could want this kind of life, honestly, it's not worth the shot) and the fact that I'm not straight (the possibilities are obviously very limited). I know it seems really selfish and bad to stay in a relationship with this kind of thoughts, but my partner would not want to find another romantic relationship too so... It's convenient for both of us.
I really would like she finds someone who can be better for her, understand her better and be a better partner who likes the same thing, can share the same interests. But I know it's pretty impossible too. We are two people too far apart of the world, that's precisely the only thing we share now.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people live that kind of relationships all their life too, so...
 

 

18 minutes ago, Ceebs said:

The contrast in the statements there... that hit me. But I know what you mean, and I know that all of those things can be true at the same time. Sometimes it depends on perspective in any given moment, sometimes they can weirdly coexist and it makes sense. One can be fortunate and have good things to be grateful for, and still be hurting and feel hopeless at the same time. I know from things you've written before about your situation that you're very unlikely to be looking at changing anything, and I understand why.

This contrast is so hurting. And it comes with a lot of guilt. I know I'm lucky for a lot of things in my life and I feel terrible about that. I have more than a lot and I'm complaining.
And knowing I will never have the opportunity to explore and experiment some things I crave for... that's what kills me each day. And at the same time I'm feeling so ungrateful for all that I have.
 

 

27 minutes ago, Ceebs said:

I'm glad the new antidepressants are helping. Nothing wrong with feeling better due to treatment. Sometimes medication is absolutely necessary and it's what helps keep someone afloat. Have you been up to any of the stuff I recall you mentioning before, like doing art (I think?).

 

*Hugs* if you want 'em. It's a tough position to be in. ❤️

It feels really lonely knowing that even my life partner, who also have anxiety problems and knows me for more than half of my life, doesn't really understand my mental problems, the limitations it forces into my life. The obligation to have a mental medication certainly for life. So many frustrations and limits I have to accept who makes me a simple watcher of other people's life. With absolutely no hope it would be better later. It gives me so much anger and bad feelings.

Yeah, I draw every day for nearly two years now, and it helps me to survive. It's hard and sometimes even painful... but at least, I feel like I live a little.
I'm just really afraid to lose that, like I lost my previous interests some years ago, suddenly, leaving me totally empty. I can just hope (ha ha) it will not happen again...

Thank you for the hugs, it means a lot!

[Olallieberry]

11 hours ago, Liara said:

Nearly one year later

I appreciate hearing the update and the reflections. It’s a little bit more than “a year later” for me too, not since my last chapter told here, but since the whole asexual identification and everything it has done to re-orient my marriage. My circumstances aren’t the same as yours but some of the feelings are. As different as we and our relationships are, we’re at least not alone.

[Liara]

I think I only truly understand now how painful all this time was.
I was 22 when I met her. I knew nothing about romantic love and relationships. Very naive. I just accepted I was a lesbian after 3 years of self hate and desire to die : I didn't want to be a lesbian. It was impossible for me.
Finally, after 3 horrible years, I accepted and I met her 1 month later. I fell in love for the first time in my life and was so happy to have the opportunity to explore this part of myself, that I had hated so much, with her.
The first weeks were not perfect but I was full of hope. Then she rejected me. When I showed her my most vulnerable face, she rejected me, without any explanation. That was not her fault, she didn't know either why. We understood why years later. She was terrified for years after that, she told me recently.
But after all the pain I endured, my very dark ideas, it was like the only person who could truly see me told me "No, I don't want to".
So much pain for nothing...
Now, I just want to forget all this part of my life. I have very few memories of this time 20 years ago. But I want to erase them.
I say that because I want to explain it's not "just sex". It's far more than that.

[uhtred]

@Liara  don't be so sure that its impossible to meet someone. There are lots of people out there.   The situation you are in sounds s difficult.   Many of us in mixed sexual  asexual relationships have experienced - not the same thing, but other facets of the same problem.  Its very difficult to be happy in this situation.

 

No useful suggestions, just best wishes that you find a way to be happy.

 

 

[Ceebs]

On 11/2/2023 at 7:48 AM, Liara said:

I know it seems really selfish and bad to stay in a relationship with this kind of thoughts

Ohh, I don't know... it's not the best case scenario, but we don't always find ourselves in situations where the most 'correct' sounding choice is also the most viable. We do what we can in a less-than-ideal situation. It's just... human.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 7:48 AM, Liara said:

It feels really lonely knowing that even my life partner, who also have anxiety problems and knows me for more than half of my life, doesn't really understand my mental problems, the limitations it forces into my life.

Ahh, that's just as tough as the other mismatched aspects. 😕 I'd say my ex was generally familiar with how I work and what I struggle with, and he was kind about it, but there wasn't kind of a... bonding aspect of turning to him for comfort and emotional support, feeling understood on a deeper level. Could've been far worse, though. I'm sorry you don't have a stronger connection in that realm of things. Funny how you can be around someone all the time and be very familiar with them but still not feel fully known.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 7:48 AM, Liara said:

Yeah, I draw every day for nearly two years now, and it helps me to survive. It's hard and sometimes even painful... but at least, I feel like I live a little.

Oh that's good, I'm glad you've still got that. It's something to hang onto. Something that's entirely yours that doesn't hinge on anyone else in any way.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 7:48 AM, Liara said:

I'm just really afraid to lose that, like I lost my previous interests some years ago, suddenly, leaving me totally empty.

Yep I get that too. I lost most of my more 'active' interests many years ago, stuff that requires skill and effort. My interests are like... listening to podcasts and scrolling the internet. Every time I try to start something new, the desire for doing it wears off super fast and I just don't care anymore. Depression is fun. Not even being in a really good relationship now can fix that (nor did I expect it to of course, since depression stuff has been with me since I was a kid). But the connection and emotional support is still important.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 7:48 AM, Liara said:

Thank you for the hugs, it means a lot!

You're welcome and sorry for the very delayed reply. 🙃

 

5 hours ago, Liara said:

I say that because I want to explain it's not "just sex". It's far more than that.

It isn't 'just sex', no. It rarely is. It's the whole connection.

[Liara]

17 hours ago, uhtred said:

@Liara  don't be so sure that its impossible to meet someone. There are lots of people out there.   The situation you are in sounds s difficult.   Many of us in mixed sexual  asexual relationships have experienced - not the same thing, but other facets of the same problem.  Its very difficult to be happy in this situation.

 

No useful suggestions, just best wishes that you find a way to be happy.

 

 

There are a lots of people out there... But not me. I never really go out. I never meet new people. The only person I see is my partner. So...

[Epitaph]

I wouldn't write yourself off. But I'd think carefully about things. I think there's something here not considered. Do you know what age does to a person in your shoes? It makes a lot of them bitter. And you're around the age where life seems to accelerate, your awareness that you can't move backwards in time cemented. That's when despair and bitterness can set in, even in the most stalwart people. 

 

I have an idea. Hear me out. You can still be there for her. You can still do everything that you do for her as a friend. A close friend, even. At least unless said oterwise, I don't believe anything would stop you from shifting relationships. You could find somebody and get to know intimacy. But how would you do that fairly?

 

By using your mind to determine two things. The first part is assessing how truly dedicated to this cause you are. Why you're dedicated to it. And either accepting that you've picked a road that ends in despair, or choosing another way out.

 

If I were in your shoes, what would I do? I'd explain things logically to my partner. Basically this. "Listen. We got into this relationship when we were young, in a time of our lives when everything is constantly changing and we didn't fully know who we are. I'm sitting here watching something that I want and need as a human being slip by my fingers and it's slowly killing me, and I know that's not your fault.  This isn't going to get better. But I need a way out somehow without leaving you."

 

I don't propose something like an open relationship. I propose something like a shift. Trying to find somebody who can fulfill what you need, while you remain as a very close friend to your partner. I'll speak really bluntly here, and it might sound harsh.

 

If you sat down with your partner and told them about all this, and they didn't do anything to try and help you find a way out? Some kind of solution or compromise that worked for everybody? I myself would be.....wary. Sacrifice is a thing that should in theory work both ways. For whatever reason you're sacrificing your life and time for a relationship that seems largely empty for you. If you're partner's not willing to sacrifice even just an inch of leeway, well, at least to me, I couldn't count them as a friend, let alone a partner.

 

But I don't know the dynamics of your situation, so I can't make any claims. But I can tell you something for certain.

 

I was a fat depressed teenager when I met somebody in my life. Good for nothing, I had no future, no trajectory. Perhaps my vaguely redeeming trait was that I was kind, and I sat down and thought a lot about things. She loved me. For all of my flaws, and my apparent weaknesses, I believe she saw through that shell to who was underneath it all, trying to get out.

 

If somebody could ever love a person like me, then there's hope for you yet. But I guess the main thing is to ask questions. Why can't you move from this gridlock you live in? 

[Epitaph]

I've been reading backwards through your posts to see what I could pick up here. Give this a read.

 

Spoiler

experiencing a stressful event, such as bereavement, divorce, or losing your job. a previous history of mental illnesses, such as depression, anorexia nervosa or bulimia. alcohol misuse or drug misuse. being in an unhappy relationship, or in a relationship where your partner is very controlling.

 

 

 

This sounds like a closed loop to me. These are some of the primary root causes for agoraphobia. I'm a staunch believer about one thing in life. Conditions are created. If they can be created, they can be un-created. They can be mitigated, or managed. We don't have the technology or the understanding to solve everything yet. But I think sitting and letting conditions that are detrimental to one's life continue to be detrimental and not attempting to find ways around them just as detrimental. Sometimes, we have to throw our hands up and admit defeat, yes. Not without throwing everything we've got at the problem first.

 

But the agoraphobia's for later. It's a complex relationship that you have. I can only speak for myself. As much as I wouldn't want to hurt the other person involved, I'm the type of person who would abandon everything and start over again if it meant that was my way out. Because I'd rather start with nothing and try again then remain trapped in something that just didn't work.

 

For you this is not an option on the table, not yet. But I have ideas though. There are ways through this. But all of it depends on which direction you want to take. Here's my thoughts.

 

One approach is trying to adapt. You know how your partner shows affection. You know how you want to show affection. What if there is a third way? A way that the two of you can build together that shows affection and allows you two to communicate it? If this third way was found, what do you think would happen in the relationship with your partner?

 

Agoraphobia might be quite a hinderance along with your eating troubles. But I don't think that stops you from scouring the net in the local area. And I'll be frank. If I lived wherever you lived, I'd offer to be sort of like your spider web feelers out in the world. To search for somebody whom might have a decent relationship with you, either as a friend or something more. I can neither teleport anywhere or travel unless I got my passport and rigged up some insane plan. I'd have to prep my family back here so that I could be gone for a little while. But I'm being honest. I'd try that for you if I could.

 

That doesn't mean somebody else couldn't though. But it all depends on which direction you want to take. You don't want to abandon your partner, and I understand that. I get it. I also, don't have a way to explain this, however. I feel something. Something is off here. I don't know what. It isn't you. There's just....something that doesn't add up for me. I don't want to take a directionless jab at anything. But here's how I can frame this without it seeming directionless.

 

I worry that there's something about your partner. I get a feeling of suspicion. But I also know it's not in my nature to trust people. I'm incredibly wary if I sense what I think is manipulation. These feelings could be entirely baseless. But do you know what bugs me? I think I can put my finger on it.

 

You're in a situation where you seem to be self trapping yourself. You try to accept your situation, but something in you screams "no." Where is your partner in all of this? Taking care of you, yes. Trying their best, I would imagine. But it makes you feel guilt. Here's why I feel suspicious. I've met people out in the world who were masterclass manipulators. They didn't need to destroy a person to control them. They just needed to feed them love and attention, and trap them in a loop, like a caregiver who never shows malice of any kind, and use another person's condition to slide into their life and take control.

 

I really don't want to imply that's the case on your end. So don't wrack your head on my borderline paranoia. But there is something here that's not being said. A puzzle piece not revealed.

 

But let's treat this fairly. There's two options for now. Trying to adapt, and adapt yourself to make something with your partner. Or there's finding the will to push beyond the cage, to try and have something that you're missing, either through compromise or crafty thinking. This isn't about guilt or shame, or parts of yourself that you think aren't adequate.

 

It's about living. You're not living. You're surviving. The problem with just "surviving" is that humans die under these conditions. We experience our personal self destructive apocalypses when we're stuck just surviving. You need something that can make you alive. And maybe that doesn't need to be somebody as an intimate partner.

 

Why don't we try throwing what we've got at this? I'm game if you are. I see who you are. You don't deserve to give up on yourself. You partner, really, doesn't deserve this either. It's a bad dice roll that puts everybody in a car that almost works, but it doesn't.  There has to be a way to find a compromise somewhere, or god forbid, a change in direction for your life.

[Liara]

@EpitaphThank you for your posts. I will try to answer the best I can.

I understand why you ask if my partner could manipulate me. It's a good question. I don't think she does. Manipulation is not something she does in general. She never lies, doesn't understand innuendos or sarcasm (I suspect some autistic traits for a long time), is pretty direct... I never saw her manipulate anyone so I don't think she can do that. She has her own mental problems, she is too rigid, unyielding, too demanding with herself and the others... But manipulate? No.

For my agoraphobia, it started before I met her. I have IBS and it gives me really painful crisis. And when you have that kind of crisis, very embarrassing and shameful, in public spaces, that's awful. I had that for years without understanding what happened and started to have panic attack. Pure terror, really. At this moment of my life, I had moved in with my partner and had to drive 1 hour (sometimes more) with a lot of traffic jams to go to work (a work I hated). And I had a lot of crisis and panic attacks during these drives. With all of that, I didn't want to go out where I could have a crisis and a panic attack who destroyed me more each time.
Of course, I have agoraphobia 😅 When you can feel this kind of pain and terror each time you try to go out, I can tell you you don't want to go out anymore. Even if you can have that in your house, at least it's safe.

So yeah, I'm surviving. What I have can't kill me, it's not really dangerous for my life but it already destroyed a lot of me. I must watch everything I eat or drink and even with that watch, I can have a crisis. A panic attack can happen anytime, without reason.
Do you really think someone else would accept that in a new partner? I can't date. I can't go to restaurant. I don't do party. I'm a 46 y.o. lesbian in a small french city where the (very few) LGBT places are for young women who like to party all night. I have been in 2 LGBT associations in the past (they don't exist anymore), to try to make friends, and watched how it worked. That's why I'm not at all optimistic about my chances to meet someone. As a lesbian, it' already really hard to find a partner but with my situation and my limitations? Honestly, it's hopeless. I have nothing worth the game.
And I'm not sure I have enough in me to do that. To have a platonic partner at home and a romantic and sexual partner out. That's a lot.

I don't know if I succeeded to explain in my poor english...

[Epitaph]

1 minute ago, Liara said:

@EpitaphThank you for your posts. I will try to answer the best I can.

I understand why you ask if my partner could manipulate me. It's a good question. I don't think she does. Manipulation is not something she does in general. She never lies, doesn't understand innuendos or sarcasm (I suspect some autistic traits for a long time), is pretty direct... I never saw her manipulate anyone so I don't think she can do that. She has her own mental problems, she is too rigid, unyielding, too demanding with herself and the others... But manipulate? No.

For my agoraphobia, it started before I met her. I have IBS and it gives me really painful crisis. And when you have that kind of crisis, very embarrassing and shameful, in public spaces, that's awful. I had that for years without understanding what happened and started to have panic attack. Pure terror, really. At this moment of my life, I had moved in with my partner and had to drive 1 hour (sometimes more) with a lot of traffic jams to go to work (a work I hated). And I had a lot of crisis and panic attacks during these drives. With all of that, I didn't want to go out where I could have a crisis and a panic attack who destroyed me more each time.
Of course, I have agoraphobia 😅 When you can feel this kind of pain and terror each time you try to go out, I can tell you you don't want to go out anymore. Even if you can have that in your house, at least it's safe.

So yeah, I'm surviving. What I have can't kill me, it's not really dangerous for my life but it already destroyed a lot of me. I must watch everything I eat or drink and even with that watch, I can have a crisis. A panic attack can happen anytime, without reason.
Do you really think someone else would accept that in a new partner? I can't date. I can't go to restaurant. I don't do party. I'm a 46 y.o. lesbian in a small french city where the (very few) LGBT places are for young women who like to party all night. I have been in 2 LGBT associations in the past (they don't exist anymore), to try to make friends, and watched how it worked. That's why I'm not at all optimistic about my chances to meet someone. As a lesbian, it' already really hard to find a partner but with my situation and my limitations? Honestly, it's hopeless. I have nothing worth the game.
And I'm not sure I have enough in me to do that. To have a platonic partner at home and a romantic and sexual partner out. That's a lot.

I don't know if I succeeded to explain in my poor english...

 

Want to hear a story? My sister had poor vision as a child and a series of screw ups from doctors that destroyed it over time. She wasn't completely blind when she met her husband. But she had difficulty seeing. He did not believe that should hinder her. He taught her to try despite her vision. Gave her the confidence to try. Then she nearly lost her vision entirely. She's got a quarter of vision in one eye. This made her effectively dead weight for a lot of things. What work she could do was slowed immensely. A guy like her husband, so active and interactive? It was difficult for him. But he never left her side voluntarily. He could have had any person he wanted depsite his age. But what mattered to him was the bond he shared with his wife. That bond mattered far more than her ability to see. It mattered far more than her looks, or her ability to do things like a regular average person. 

 

The weaknesses that you see inside of yourself are not what somebody who could care about you will look at. Love or intimacy doesn't care about human weaknesses or faults. It works because somebody's love for another person is stronger than their shortcomings. You have a personality, you have interests, you have qualities, and all of these things can enter another person's life and make their life better. You existing can simply make somebody's life better without even you really trying or knowing why.

 

Quote

Do you really think someone else would accept that in a new partner? I can't date. I can't go to restaurant. I don't do party. I'm a 46 y.o. lesbian in a small french city where the (very few) LGBT places are for young women who like to party all night. I have been in 2 LGBT associations in the past (they don't exist anymore), to try to make friends, and watched how it worked.

 

What do these negative qualities make you as a person? A homebody. Somebody who is comfortable at home.  What does that mean then? You will never find somebody like yourself in places where a person like yourself would never go. Somebody like you would also be a homebody. They'd be somebody who didn't have a problem with not going outside, or drinking, or doing public spaces.

 

Finding them would be difficult because these people are loners. Isolated, and rare sights. That doesn't mean that you can't find them. The internet can overcome distance, and personal spaces, and limitations of travel. If you don't have faith in your small city, then I'd say expand your search radius. You can do that with the internet.

 

Believe me when I say this. I suggest online dating if you were really wanting to try this. I don't suggest this lightly. I despise online dating. But I'm also a guy. Online dating for a guy is hell. But for you? Lesbian? You might have a much easier time. Your age doesn't matter. Age never matters unless somebody makes age a point of mattering.

 

There would be one catch though. At your age, your inexperience with relationships would leave you vulnerable to shady people looking for a quick hookup. You'd put your heart on the line and get burned because you couldn't read the warning signs that somebody was interested only in sexual activity, or just an easy mark. The sad part of life is that in relationships there are predators. Youth, ideally is the best time to learn and gain this experience to navigate this world. This doesn't mean that you couldn't, though. 

 

Let me tell you something. If you got to know somebody, and love them? And they loved you? They'd make the world bend in order to come find you. That's how strong love is. If you couldn't get to them, they'd want to get to you. And some people in this world have moved mountains to make it happen. Imagine that for a second. What would you feel if you knew that somebody out there was willing overcome everything just to see you? To try and live their life with you because of your good qualities?

 

Quote

I understand why you ask if my partner could manipulate me. It's a good question. I don't think she does. Manipulation is not something she does in general. She never lies, doesn't understand innuendos or sarcasm (I suspect some autistic traits for a long time), is pretty direct... I never saw her manipulate anyone so I don't think she can do that. She has her own mental problems, she is too rigid, unyielding, too demanding with herself and the others... But manipulate? No.

 

Some people are passive predators. They don't go out into the world actively looking for a mark. But they gravitate towards them on some kind of instinct. But on this, I'll trust your judgement. Manipulation, maybe not. But I feel red flags when I hear control problems. Again, I trust your judgement. Maybe I can ask some other questions.

 

Imagine for a second that nothing bad happens if you split off from your partner. Imagine that you can go outside and do stuff and you've got the means to go wander and explore, and go looking for a partner. If you had that option to do it right now, would you take that option?

 

What memory can you think of that was the last time that you looked at your partner and felt happy? Content? What's your happiest memory of her, and how long ago was it?

 

Describe to me how your partner tries to control things, either with herself or other people.

 

Maybe the hardest question I'll ask of all of them. Look really deep into yourself. Do you want this situation to change? Do you dream of leaving it all behind in the hopes that you could find something better, even if those thoughts are frightening or make you feel selfish?

 

I understand what you say. Tell me if you have difficulty understanding what I say.

[Epitaph]

I have another idea rattling around in my head for you Liara. It's a bit abstract.

 

Do you know how some priests and monks take vows of celibacy? Let's ignore the priests and monks who break those rules and focus on the ones who commit to their vows. I think if you were going to sit down and talk to one of these people, and ask them about difficulties in maintaining their vows, they could tell you some stories. My main point for you here is that these people make vows, and they have to face the consequences that come with it. Sometimes, a lot of times their vows are challenged, and this won't make them happy people. But their devotion to that vow is stronger than unhappiness, and they find ways to live with that.

 

So here is my idea. If you are wanting to stay with your partner, and you don't want to upset that balance that you currently have in your life, but you're still unhappy about certain things, then I'd suggest something like making a vow. It could even be a celibacy vow if you want.

 

Let me explain my thinking here. The brain and all of thoughts inside of it could be viewed like a schematic. Right now, there's an unhappy part of your life that kind of like...an open door. All your emotions can travel freely through this open door. And as long as this door is open, the emotions continue to travel through it.

 

A priest who's taken a vow probably still has emotions and thoughts that make them sad. They might look at people and ponder what a relationship could be. But then as their emotions try to go through this door? The vow they've taken stops it dead in it's tracks. It forces the emotions to re-route somewhere else. And the vow is maintained because the priest believes so strongly in the vow they've taken to god, or even themselves and their own personal code of honor that they do not break the vow.

 

So maybe that's something you could do. A serious vow to yourself, like celibacy, or something else. When your emotions hit you, your pangs of longing for human connection, the strength of the vow you've made in your mind will act like a redirector and a barrier. A door closes in your mind. And the longer this door closes, the easier it is over to time to keep the door closed.

 

But I don't write this to you lightly. When we talk about vows, serious vows that we personally undertake within ourselves, these things have costs. And you're still left with a bit of a pickle. You've still got the emotions. The vow doesn't delete them. You'd need to find ways to healthily process your emotions, find an outlet for your frustrations. It would become a balancing act in order to maintain your self imposed vow.

 

It's a thought. I think there's a possibility it would help your situation, in a way, because it would slowly re-wire your mind's processes, and therefore free you of the burden of living in a cage. Rather than dwelling on the cage, the vow would cut things off, and you'd focus on other things in your life, like what you can do and what you're capable of, and what has value in life. It would take time, but it would change you slowly.

 

I want ya to have options here, no matter what you pick. And I think at some point in your life, you will have to pick. Could be weeks from now, could be years from now. Something will give, something will break, and a choice will be made for you that you can no longer control. Depression could spiral out of control and lead to your death. It could dilute your quality of life. Strains could just destroy your body's health further until you snap and become unpredictable, either lashing out or giving up entirely.

 

I do not wish to see that happen to you, nor for you to feel what that is when it arrives. I will keep thinking about things and drop what I think are possible solutions.

[Olallieberry]

Sounds a little one-sided to me. Monastics at least have whatever the promises of their faith and their order are, in return, in some way.

 

What would it look/sound/feel like to talk about making vows to each other? You're not married, if I remember right? Vows don't have to be in a marriage ceremony, and they don't have to be "the traditional" vows. But why not get this stuff out in the open and invite her to the honor of showing you what her own side of the commitment is?

[Liara]

@EpitaphI will answer your other posts later but for the last one... Priests' vows are totally voluntary, they have a real choice to take them. I dont have this freedom of choice, it would be forced because I could not do anything else. That changes everything.
And when their vows are hard, they have their faith in god to help them. And I would have... nothing. So...
I get what you want to say. But the meaning between priests' vows and my vow of celibacy would be very very different and absolutely not fair for me.
But thank you for the idea

 

12 minutes ago, Ollie415 said:

What would it look/sound/feel like to talk about making vows to each other? You're not married, if I remember right? Vows don't have to be in a marriage ceremony, and they don't have to be "the traditional" vows. But why not get this stuff out in the open and invite her to the honor of showing you what her own side of the commitment is?

I'm not sure I really see what you mean.
We are not married, just a civil partnership, same-sex marriage were not possible when we met (and my family would not accept).

[Mountain House]

3 hours ago, Ollie415 said:

get this stuff out in the open ... what her own side of the commitment is?

In other words, communicate. 👍

 

@Liara, I'll assume you have already had the conversation and know your partner's side of the commitment. I'll also take you for your word, you have health issues and don't go out.

 

I won't agree that you are trapped in a celibate life but that you choose it. There are a lot of people that have virtual affairs. Join online spaces that excite you. Make friends. You never know where that will go.

<any hobby related chat space here>

 

And wouldn't it be amazing if two agoraphobic people met each other online!

Panic Disorder and Agoraphobia Forum | Mental Health Forum

 

And I bet there are lesbians in places where there are no potential partners looking for online relationships.

Discord

 

Just as you've done here, you can meet people without going out.

 

Wishing you the best!

 

A friend

[Liara]

10 minutes ago, Mountain House said:

In other words, communicate. 👍

 

@Liara, I'll assume you have already had the conversation and know your partner's side of the commitment. I'll also take you for your word, you have health issues and don't go out.

 

I won't agree that you are trapped in a celibate life but that you choose it. There are a lot of people that have virtual affairs. Join online spaces that excite you. Make friends. You never know where that will go.

<any hobby related chat space here>

 

And wouldn't it be amazing if two agoraphobic people met each other online!

Panic Disorder and Agoraphobia Forum | Mental Health Forum

 

And I bet there are lesbians in places where there are no potential partners looking for online relationships.

Discord

 

Just as you've done here, you can meet people without going out.

 

Wishing you the best!

 

A friend

I'm already doing that ☺️.

I'm on some discord servers and make some acquaintances. But the problem with internet is you discuss with people who can live really far away. And for those who have anxiety or agoraphobia... That will just stay that : far away friends, for the best (same thing with @Epitaph's idea. Meeting a 40's lesbian woman single who likes me is already hard... But introverted and homebody? Really improbable). And when you're not native English speaking, that's even more difficult.

 

So... That's great... But that doesn't change anything.

 

[Ceebs]

Disaster as it ultimately was, I met my (sexual) ex-girlfriend online. Errrr... on AVEN, as some who've been around a while may already know. And yeah, as I've mentioned, it started as an affair. Is what it is, as they say. We lived far apart and it took many years before visiting happened (after everything was all above-board).

 

And like you know, I don't go out either. Like, really really really don't go out. I went to the hospital last week out of necessity. My ex-husband brings the shopping by for me because I have neither a car nor the energy to do it. The dog we shared when we were together had to be euthanised almost three months ago, so I went to that. I went for a walk by myself down to the lake in August. That's my life.

 

Yet I met Tele. I met my ex-girlfriend. I met my ex-husband. All online. The last time I dated someone I didn't meet online was over 20 years ago. I know the pool is smaller when you're gay, but there are definitely other queer women out there, looking for someone online. And I know from experience with my ex-husband and with Tele that there are people who will be accepting of your limitations, and surely there are women like that too.

 

Not trying to encourage you to do anything in particular, of course. And god forbid, I don't want to be one of those annoyingly positive people. If you have something with your partner that you want to maintain despite the mismatch, that's totally fair. I can understand that quite easily. And having an affair maybe isn't the best way to go about it (obviously not interested in being judgy of those who find themselves in that situation, though) and leaving your partner with no one else you're already connected to is incredibly hard. And then there's the distance aspect; unless all you want is an online-only relationship with someone, either one person or the other has to move eventually and that's not a small thing. But... if you were in a place where you wanted to look for someone to connect with, it's not a complete impossibility.

[Olallieberry]

7 hours ago, Liara said:

I'm not sure I really see what you mean.

Epitaph proposed one of you making some kind of a vow. I was just pointing out how lopsided that seemed to me, that there are two of you and (hypothetically) some reciprocation would be nice. What I was saying about being married was just confirming whether you've ever done vows before/already. It was all hypothetical anyway since at the time I wrote it, I had no idea how you'd react to Epitaph's idea.

[Epitaph]

11 hours ago, Liara said:

@EpitaphI will answer your other posts later but for the last one... Priests' vows are totally voluntary, they have a real choice to take them. I dont have this freedom of choice, it would be forced because I could not do anything else. That changes everything.
And when their vows are hard, they have their faith in god to help them. And I would have... nothing. So...
I get what you want to say. But the meaning between priests' vows and my vow of celibacy would be very very different and absolutely not fair for me.
But thank you for the idea

 

I'm not sure I really see what you mean.
We are not married, just a civil partnership, same-sex marriage were not possible when we met (and my family would not accept).

 

I don't know if that's necessarily true. You do have a choice in things. Several types of choices. But it's a question if you can withstand those choices. You believe that you can't, and you rationalize that these choices are risky. Why throw away what you have when it's comfortable and safe? So you write these choices off, even though they still exist. A vow seems like a non-choice because rather than net you a positive outcome that you're wanting, it nets you a compromise for your situation that favors the situation you live in, which is a situation that you do not enjoy living in. That's why it doesn't feel or look like a choice. It's just a choice that favors your current lifestyle. What would your faith be? Faith in yourself. Your integrity as a person. You made a promise for whatever reasons that you made it. Destroying the promise would betray yourself for the reason that you made it, or other people that you made it for.

 

But I understand. Whatever I add here isn't an absolute. Just an idea. It's through ideas, no matter how abstract that we can draw solutions from. There is a solution. But it's all a question of willpower to do it and logistics. Solutions aren't always win. Everything in life is a question of what's gained versus what's lost.

 

Another difficult question. Sorry to pile them up. What would be fair for you? What would feel fair?

[Liara]

I met my partner online, so I know how it works

And if I'm so hopeless about my chance to meet someone, it's because of past experiences.
For nearly 20 years, I created and managed a website and a forum, who created a little community. I met a lot of people, some IRL. I even went to a lot of conventions (that was great but terribly exhausting and painful). I was part of queer associations.
So I met a lot of people. I tried to make connections, to find a space for me there. I tried, so much. Again and again.
Of course, I met a lot of women. Very very straight women, very married too. Some queer but not a lot. Some were my partner's friends before they rejected her because of our relationship (queer community open and welcoming? Not really). Some others just didn't care about meeting new people.
A funny example? In a queer association, the only woman who was friendly with me was the only straight woman of the group.

What wad the result after all these years? Nothing. A lot of rejection, a lot of indifference. Apparently, I'm very easy to forget. It's certainly my fault, I must have someting who makes me transparent or not nice to know. So yeah, love is very powerful. But before love, there are a lot of steps I apparently don't make people want to take.

Am I too pessimistic? Yeah, I know. But I have reasons for that. I tried and I was burned, a lot.
My home is my refuge because I never found a welcoming place for me outside.

[Ceebs]

2 hours ago, Liara said:

Some were my partner's friends before they rejected her because of our relationship (queer community open and welcoming? Not really)

What on earth...? What's the story there? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want to, though.) I'm sorry, that's shitty.

 

2 hours ago, Liara said:

My home is my refuge because I never found a welcoming place for me outside.

Yeah, same. It's the only place I feel comfortable and safe.

[Liara]

2 hours ago, Ceebs said:

What on earth...? What's the story there? (You don't have to answer that if you don't want to, though.) I'm sorry, that's shitty.

When I met my partner, she was used to go to Paris every weekend (4 hours of train Friday evening and 4 hours of train Monday morning I think) to see a group of queer women she met online. When we started dating, we could only meet during the weekends (not the same city) so she stopped to go to Paris for a few time. But she kept contact with her friends.
Then we went to Paris a weekend together to see them... and that was weird. They nerver talked to me and they nearly didn't talk to her. After that, I never had a chance to know them and the contacts were fewer and fewer...
Never understood what happened...

[Ceebs]

Wow. Doesn't make any sense to me either, unless someone in this group of friends had feelings for your partner or something? Regardless, that's really rude. I'm sorry. 😕

 

People are odd and group dynamics terrify the everliving shit out of me.

[Liara]

Yesterday evening was awful. My partner and I were talking about something pretty harmless and I tried, for once, to tell her something personal. Her reaction was a little rude and hurt me. I told her and she asked me if I was not a little susceptible...
For context, I usually never shared anything personal with someone IRL. I grew up in a family where, if I shared something like that, my parents or my brothers 1) didn't listen or 2) laugh and mock me or 3) didn't understand at all. So I learned to never share and that's obviously a problem for relationships (I heard the term toxic independence once, I think that's perfect for me).

My partner always says she has to fight to make me give personal informations and she is right.
So for once I gave her something and she was rude. I tried to explain her. I was awkward. We tried to talk and that was really uncomfortable and painful. I really really don't know how to interact with people. It always ended badly. As soon as it becomes personal, I ruin everything. I don't know how to deal with emotion.

Finally she told me I was not forced to stay with her if I was not well. I didn't want to lie and answered her I couldn't go (I didn't mean it as rude as it seems but ofc that was rude). She told me she was really sorry to not be able to make me happy and started to cry. I tried to console her but without touch, I didn't really know how to do this...
And... that's it.
The rest of the evening was very tense and uncomfortable as hell. I think I must talk again, that we must have a real talk but I'm scared to ruin everything once again and to hurt her even more. I don't know how to talk and she doesn't know how to listen. So communication is hard. I 'm really shitty to explain myself and make me understandable (even in french).
And even harder because I don't really know what I want.

I feel like a really bad person who should be alone to never hurt anyone again. I only have one friend online and I hurt her all the time with my words and I hate myself for that.
I really try, every time, to do better but each time, it's worse.
I have a session with my therapist next week, maybe I will try to talk about that with him but in 20 mn, you can't make miracle...

[AloneTogether]

@Liara I know it can be very hard talking about deep feelings. I struggle with it too. However I think it’s a very positive thing that you’ve taken a first step. I think, if you keep going, you’ll find it just a little easier each time. 
 

You don’t have to say everything in one go, and yes maybe sometimes things will

come out a bit awkward and convey a different meaning from what you meant, but you have the opportunity to explain and I’m sure your partner can understand that this is difficult for you and you’re making an effort. 
 

Try not to say things in an accusatory way, talk about what you feel, but be true to yourself. and do try to find the time to talk to your therapist about this. He should be able to really help more than random people on the internet (like me🤣)

 

Communication is really worthwhile and I encourage you to build on this start. 

[Windmills of My Mind]

I agree with @AloneTogether

 

And you deserve praise for talking Liara, despite your reluctance and history. You are a brave woman and you try to do the best you can. We all have limitations. You are aware of yours and do the very best you can under the circumstances. You have my admiration and support. Being different than most or many other people does not make you wrong. You are not a bad person. You try to understand your partner and attempt to communicate your feelings. You support other people here at AVEN with your view and experiences. You give me yet another perspective on relationships which are all so very different. You make the effort. Well done, and if at all possible keep communicating. To me you are very much OK 🍰

[Ceebs]

3 hours ago, Liara said:

maybe I will try to talk about that with him but in 20 mn, you can't make miracle.

Are 20 minute therapy appointments common in France? Here in Canada my sessions in the past have always been close to a full hour and that was my partner's experience in the UK as well. 20 minutes doesn't seem like a lot of time to really go very deep into a discussion without having to stop pretty soon and take it up again next time, which seems kind of disruptive.

 

Anyway, that's all beside the point but caught my attention. That does indeed sound like an uncomfortable evening, yeah, but it's definitely progress nonetheless. I used to be someone who probably couldn't have put a name to most emotions let alone known how to talk about them with anyone. Now I'm big on babbling about the stuff in my head all the time lol (I mean, when it's safe and with the right people). Trying anything new when it comes to how the two of you communicate is a huge step, even though the experience yesterday was an upsetting one. 
 

Of course, discussions are always a two-way street -- hence my thing above about how I can talk about emotions and personal things when it's with the right people. I'm still very avoidant when it's someone I don't have a comfortable connection with (like my family; we're all bad at talking to each other). You mentioned that your partner is not a very good listener. Is she aware that she has to actively play a role in finding a way to make communication work better? It's not all up to you. Does she have any interest in anything changing? 

[Traveler40]

I’m a fan of letter writing. It relieves pressure and interpersonal noise while allowing

the recipient space to digest and reread at will for both nuance and clarity. 
 

Of course, the sender can also say exactly what they want to say in the way they feel is best. Typically, it opens lines of communication and helps deliver your thoughts and feelings in a clear and direct way.