Thoughts on Incel

[Homer]

Just now, Skullery Maid said:

You don't think it's entitled and brattish to hate women because you think hot girls should like you?

Not entirely sure where you get that from.

 

I don't think that's what the idea of incel is about. I haven't heard about it until yesterday and I mainly took Tar's response as my starting point. That's why I wrote about support groups for people who are unhappy about a certain aspect of their lives. I think it's okay to seek support if you're unhappy about a certain aspect of your life. Hating on a group of people is another level.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Homer said:

Not entirely sure where you get that from.

 

I don't think that's what the idea of incel is about. I haven't heard about it until yesterday and I mainly took Tar's response as my starting point. That's why I wrote about support groups for people who are unhappy about a certain aspect of their lives. I think it's okay to seek support if you're unhappy about a certain aspect of your life. Hating on a group of people is another level.

Why don't you think that's what incel is about? Please tell me what part of my analysis is off. I get that, theoretically, it wouldn't have to be, but we're not talking theory, we're talking about an actual group that exists that have been deemed a hate group of sorts. If your objection is only theoretical, it doesn't mean much. 

 

Further, you're continuing to ignore my main point... there is no such thing as unintentionally celibate. There are only people who CHOOSE (therefore not unintentionally) not to have sex with people they deem beneath them. 

 

There is nothing socially adaptive or psychologically healthy about feeling entitled to specific humans. You aren't. I aren't. No one is. Sure, if someone literally couldn't get any affection despite trying, that's an actual problem. That's not the case here. 

 

No one is entitled to specific people. Period. If you want a hotter class of women, you gotta work out, get a job, improve your social skills, etc. A support group for men who wish hot women liked them... not ok. 

[Guest]

Here's a beautiful quote from a "reasonable" incel who blames mass violence on women. @Homer this is the mindset you're defending. 

 

"If just one girl would give incel men a chance, I guarantee that mass shootings would be almost non-existent." 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/rantsofanincel.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/the-blame-is-always-shifted-away-from-the-man/amp/

[Homer]

Nope. This is explicitly not the mindset that I am defending. Please re-read my posts.

[Guest]

Just now, Homer said:

Nope. This is explicitly not the mindset that I am defending. Please re-read my posts.

Yes it is, if you're defending incel. 

 

People who are sad because they're lonely, that's a different ball of wax. Incel is a specific group. Like how I can hate all KKK members without hating all white people. The one is a very small subgroup of horrificness. 

[Prufrock, but like, worse]

"To make girls like you, you have to adhere to male gender roles even harder. What constitutes an attractive man or woman shall not be examined for potential influences. We shall assume that cultural norms (implicit: the speaker's cultural norms) map onto everyone's personal sense of who they are attracted to. You need to recognize where your attractiveness lies on a linear, objective scale which everyone agrees with. Disliking the norms for your own gender and wishing you could have what you want without becoming someone that you detest makes you a cuck brat."

 

Tbh, since my moral compass just made me post in defense of incels, I should probably be sent to the gulag.

[Muledeer]

I just a NYT article about the Incels.  Apparently, Reddit shut down the group last year because of hateful content.  The group had over 40,000members!  So, it is or was really a "thing". I have never heard of Incels until today. What an interesting term.  Involuntary Celibates.  It's pretty descriptive, and it sounds like it would invite hateful content.  People blaming others for their own sexual failures.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, chandrakirti said:

What do you know of this stuff and what do you think?

I only see the irony of his actions. Considering he'll be going to a high security prison and I believe is advertised as a young virginal male. His sex life is about to increase, tenfold.

 

For whatever reason, even those in highest level prisons have a code of ethics for the most part. I.E You hurt kids, and innocent women for the most part, and you're at the bottom of the food chain. I don't think he'll be making any friends, considering the level of cowardice he's carrying himself with.

 

What confuses me about the group, is that there are so many people in it. Couldn't a few have pooled money together, and gotten escort services?

[Epitaph]

16 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I only see the irony of his actions. Considering he'll be going to a high security prison and I believe is advertised as a young virginal male. His sex life is about to increase, tenfold.

 

For whatever reason, even those in highest level prisons have a code of ethics for the most part. I.E You hurt kids, and innocent women for the most part, and you're at the bottom of the food chain. I don't think he'll be making any friends, considering the level of cowardice he's carrying himself with.

 

What confuses me about the group, is that there are so many people in it. Couldn't a few have pooled money together, and gotten escort services?

That's the thing with some of the people in the group. In some of my experiences in talking with them they figure that they're people of high moral standards. Paying for sex would be beneath them. That seems to somewhat of a common running theme with a portion of their number. As somebody already said earlier, these are the folks that get pissed but do nothing to actually change their position. They're no different than some of those depressed people you meet that remain depressed because they'll shrug off any advice you give them to get a move on with their lives. Or vindictive people that figure the world owes them something. Self created prison sort of people.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, E is for E said:

they figure that they're people of high moral standards.

They must really love irony.

 

23 minutes ago, E is for E said:

these are the folks that get pissed but do nothing to actually change their position.

I've worked with someone like this. Nothing worse than someone who'll grow irate, and then give up and blame everyone else. If their lives are messed up decades later, its all your fault. You must pay for it. They'll often throw in their hidden agenda within all their rants.

 

30 year's worth of one year of experience, is how I put it. I feel sorry for such people. Decades of life, and never grew wiser. Just more miserable, and entitled.

[Epitaph]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

They must really love irony.

 

I've worked with someone like this. Nothing worse than someone who'll grow irate, and then give up and blame everyone else. If their lives are messed up decades later, its all your fault. You must pay for it. They'll often throw in their hidden agenda within all their rants.

 

30 year's worth of one year of experience, is how I put it. I feel sorry for such people. Decades of life, and never grew wiser. Just more miserable, and entitled.

Everybody loves irony.  I remember having an in-depth discussion with one once. I had this funny notion that I should try and expend energy and time, perhaps to change one's mind. The amount of mental gymnastics some of those people will pull to justify their narrative is enough to make you want to slap the shit out of them with an iron-y frying pan. As far as I'm concerned, any of them that adopt the label are actually too far gone. Musing it over, I can understand that some people would actually be celibate involuntarily. Those with disabilities and conditions that may be tough to live with that they have no control over. Mr. raging PTSD and a gallon of pills down the hatch per month doesn't stand much a of a chance of having a caring partner to put up with him. 

 

But the core of the movement always seems to shift towards hatred or negative aspects in their beliefs. Don't get me wrong, I know that there are always outliers, those that don't follow the core of the movement, but statistically, their numbers will always be smaller than the main bulk of the movement. Like I said in my first post here, gas and a match, save everybody else the trouble. 

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

Yes @Muledeer, I originally posted this thread on 'partners of asexuals' forum, as the nearest I could think of  in placing it, was that the partners of asexual people could be described as 'involuntary celibates'. However, this doesn't mean I think that this group has anything in common with incel at all, just that I couldn't work out where it should go, but I think it does merit a discussion, because thoughts like these , turned into actions....

[Skycaptain]

Incels all excel on computers 'cos they're Intel inside 

[Tarfeather]

@Skullery Maid Oh, so no more ignoring each other then? Okay. I mean, I can already see the way this is going to go. You're really smart and really good at rhetoric, so you're basically going to inspire the crowds and make them feel like they're also really smart and insightful for following your points. Meanwhile, I'll just be over here in the corner and try to use reason and logic to address the gaping holes in your argumentation (nobody is going to listen).

 

 

9 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

Here's a beautiful quote from a "reasonable" incel who blames mass violence on women. @Homer this is the mindset you're defending. 

 

"If just one girl would give incel men a chance, I guarantee that mass shootings would be almost non-existent." 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/rantsofanincel.wordpress.com/2015/11/14/the-blame-is-always-shifted-away-from-the-man/amp/

So, let me put this straight. You have some opinion about the incel community as a whole. How do you back this opinion up? You find a popular blog by a person who self-identifies as incel. You then claim that this automatically proves that that's what the whole movement is about. And as if that weren't enough, you then engage in a classical tribal, McCarthyist type of argument. According to you, not only is the incel community and everyone in it deplorable beyond the shadow of a doubt (as evidenced by one blogger), no, anyone who, like Homer, shows skepticism at this idea, or in any way expresses sympathy or understanding for this group, is really defending the type of deplorable mindset you exposed with that blog post. Hence, anyone who even dares to disagree with your viewpoint, just happens to be a bad person themselves, and they'd better quickly change their mind to remain in your favor.

 

Honestly, I have to commend you. This is textbook manufacturing consent. If you had a mind to bash on Muslims or communists instead of incels, you could make decent money justifying the war machine. I guess I should be grateful you use it to harm groups nobody has an interest in exploiting anyway?

 

 

 

 

Okay, but let me just apply your exact style of argument to feminism, just to visibly show how ridiculous it is. Here are two articles written by feminists, published on major outlets. Heck, one of them was published on The Guardian, not just some nobody's personal blog. That makes it pretty much gospel, right?

 

https://everydayfeminism.com/2014/04/abortion-myths-debunked/

Quote

Therefore, a fetus is a part of the person housing the pregnancy. For a mother, that makes its existence a part of her, making it her choice to terminate; hers, and hers only.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/13/feminists-do-not-hate-men

Quote

But our hatred is just a feeling, and not something that can impact men in any meaningful or oppressive way.

 

So there you have it. All feminists believe that it's totally fine for a woman to kill her eight month old fetus, because it's still part of her body, and so only she gets to decide what happens with it. Also, all feminists believe that hating men is totally okay, and that it could never possibly lead to men being impacted in a meaningful way.

 

So, if you're a feminist, I can basically assume that you're down with killing unborn babies. And if you defend feminists at all, for instance you say that the movement is important to address valid hardships that women face, then you are defending the mindset that fetuses are part of the mother's body and that it's okay to hate men. That sounds really reasonable and not at all like jumping to overgeneralized views of a group based on anecdotal evidence.

 

 

As a closing thought, if you would really like to understand what the incel community is like, I would suggest doing some actual research for yourself and reading what some of these people (not the terrible people with blogs who are mostly known because they're so terrible, the actual people in those communities) have to say. Start here.

[Tarfeather]

19 hours ago, CBC said:

I know it's made up of whiny, socially misfit males who believe they're entitled to sex and are so bitter about their lack of ability to get it from anyone that they band together for some good old fashioned women-hating. Anything to make it not their fault they can't get laid.

 

15 hours ago, CBC said:

I mean, is that how you behave, Tar?

 

I'm not passing judgment on any particular individuals and I don't have remotely enough knowledge of your life to decide if that description fits you. You're the one who seems to have decided it does.

No, you've decided that. I have at one point been part of an incel community. Hence, when you make generalizations about that whole group, you also make a statement about me. That's what the statement "it's made up of" means, that the people in it have this trait. When you make a statement, that statement has consequences. In this case, the consequence is that you weren't talking just about an unknown group of nobodies who it's apparently okay to insult, you were also talking about a person who you happen to know, and whose emotional reaction you can witness. I was hoping maybe this realization would change your perspective, but apparently you're dead set on demonizing this group and anyone in it (including at one point me), so, whatever. *shrugs*

[Telecaster68]

I did once have a peek at the r/incels, a year or so ago. It looked like there was more self-hate than misogyny, and the misogyny was borne of self loathing. Most of the posters seemed stuck in a circle of depression and self loathing; far more so than the repellent parts of 4chan, for example, which seem to be far more focussed on directing that self hatred outward.

[Tarfeather]

7 minutes ago, CBC said:

Do you really believe in the concept of involuntary celibacy, Tar? When both sex workers and women with extremely low standards very much exist, it's not involuntary. Every single one of these incel dudes could get laid. That is a real option for them, thus their celibacy is voluntary. "I can't fuck whoever I want" isn't the same as "There's absolutely no other living soul on Earth who will have sex with me". 

Oh, that's an entirely different can of worms. Basically a semantic discussion. Look, we can all agree that the word "incel" is poorly coined, and a lot of incel communities avoid it for that very reason. This just comes down to a different understanding of "involuntary". It's not "involuntary" in the sense of, someone forces me to do or not do something. It's more the kind of involuntary where e.g. someone with OCD has to keep washing their hands. Sure, the person with OCD could theoretically choose to just not wash their hands for so long? But they don't genuinely have that option. It's not really a matter of their own free will anymore, it's a matter of compulsion, and they need outside help to deal with that.

 

I've done research on the online resources for the incel concept (basically sites that are in function for incel, what AVEN is to asexuality), and they never claim that incels are physically unable to get laid. What they claim is that a mixture of different factors (social anxiety, autism spectrum disorders, mental illness, physical disability, being in a low population area, etc. etc.) makes it effectively impossible for them to get laid. They view this as a serious and unique problem, and they offer online discussion sites as a sort of self help group for people to discuss their challenges and experiences.

 

But yeah, if you don't want to call it "incel", be my guest. I'm not aware of any other unique term to identify these groups, though.

[Telecaster68]

11 minutes ago, CBC said:

I presume these guys would learn to hate themselves less and treat others with respect if they actually un-parked their arses from their chairs in front of their computers, on which they spend time fuelling their own self-hatred by losing themselves in such a negative identity, and got some professional help.

 

As for the OCD analogy (I'm not a bad person to use that one on, actually; I've struggled with OCD my entire life, including the stereotypical obsessive hand washing because I have significant germophobia)... well, OCD is a brain chemistry-based psychiatric condition. Involuntary celibacy is not. However I certainly won't argue that these men don't have psychological problems, so.

 

Honestly it seems like if they wanted genuine, constructive support for their relationship woes though, they have other options both online and off, instead of joining what has become a toxic movement of bitterness and entitlement. Ones that might actually get them at least a little closer to what they desire instead of just wallowing.

It can be quite difficult to get out of the cycle of being pissed off at life for legitimate reasons, trying stuff, it not working, getting more pissed off, trying stuff in more half arsed way, it working even less, getting even more pissed, being even more half arsed... etc.

[Sally]

16 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

All generalisations? 

Who wouldn't dislike generalizations.  

[Sally]

16 minutes ago, CBC said:

I presume these guys would learn to hate themselves less and treat others with respect if they actually un-parked their arses from their chairs in front of their computers, on which they spend time fuelling their own self-hatred by losing themselves in such a negative identity, and got some professional help.

 

They don't think they need professional  help; after all, the real trouble lies with those women playing games.  

[Telecaster68]

7 minutes ago, Sally said:

They don't think they need professional  help; after all, the real trouble lies with those women playing games.  

Damn those obtuse brainwashed women who can't see the attraction of an embittered resentful misogynistic slob living in their mother's basement*. 

 

*Except Tar

[Tarfeather]

34 minutes ago, CBC said:

Why'd you leave the incel community?

Not, at any rate, because it was a misogynyst shithole if that's what you're getting at. No, actually, the reason was very selfish. They were all nice people there, and just being part of that community for a while and talking to people with worse situations than my own helped to make me feel a little better about myself. But beyond that, it just didn't give me anything.

 

Thing is, my problem was (and to a lesser extent still is), that I did most of my socializing online and around my interests, and they were all male-dominated interests. Joining a community of sexually frustrated males who talk about that very issue, isn't going to make the issue better. AVEN has proved a much better support structure for me, because here I got the chance to interact with women, something I desperately needed to learn. And of course, even more important than that, was getting to know and befriending women in real life. I mean, right now I have three female friends in real life who I have absolutely no romantic interest in. That's like unprecedented for me.

 

I think there are different incel communities out there. I know that some are more closed off and echo chamber-ish, with members staying there for years and feeding each other's discomfort. And most likely at those places the kind of issues you described do arise. But the one I linked (/r/foreveralone) is very open, with moderators that actively work to prevent such an atmosphere, and with much of the discussion being new members who drop in to ask for advice. The people who stay tend to be the ones who have a moderate amount of success and pass on their knowledge, whereas the people who are only interested in getting help end up leaving and applying what they've learned (as I did).

[Epitaph]

8 minutes ago, Sally said:

They don't think they need professional  help; after all, the real trouble lies with those women playing games.  

While not a full fledged argument for much, I'd just like to point out that there's foul women out there too. Based on some of the people I've talked to in the past, those of whom have existed in a fragile mental state and where unable to discern a regular normal human being from one that took advantage of others, and therefore walked right into the jaws of a trap.

 

Naturally, that doesn't excuse anybody to take a van out and run people over. But for somebody in a fragile mental state, meeting the wrong person can alter your worldview almost permanently. It's exactly the same as women who end up with abusive men or those that are only really interested in sex, playing them along like they're good guys. For a woman or a man, if the first experience is bad, it can leave a lasting mark that takes years to get over from.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, Tarfeather said:

Joining a community of sexually frustrated males who talk about that very issue, isn't going to make the issue better.

That'll be the key insight most of the nastier ones will be missing.

[Tarfeather]

@CBC Hey, I'm glad I could convince you to view the matter with a little more nuance. No offense taken, by the way, I just thought that raising a logical contradiction would be the best way to get my point across.

 

34 minutes ago, Sally said:

They don't think they need professional  help; after all, the real trouble lies with those women playing games.  

That's genuinely not my impression with most incels I've talked to. In my experience, they do recognize the issue is on their side.

 

16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Damn those obtuse brainwashed women who can't see the attraction of an embittered resentful misogynistic slob living in their mother's basement*. 

 

*Except Tar

Don't know why you'd except me from that, as an over-the-top, satirical imitation of my viewpoint it works.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, Tarfeather said:

Don't know why you'd except me from that, as an over-the-top, satirical imitation of my viewpoint it works.

I didn't want you getting the arse on again over a joke.

[paperbackreader]

10 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

Lol how are they a marginalized group?!? They're men who think they deserve hotter pussy than they're able to get. That's not a marginalized group. Please, define "marginalized group" in a way that doesn't insult people of color but includes people who think they should get to bang models but can't. 

I guess from reading the posts on /r/incels, the only near constant is poor self esteem, and some of them describe their experience of the world / bullying that has nothing to do with their choosiness or lack thereof. 

 

Not all of them congregate about their entitlement to bang better looking people. Not all of them are men. Sure, not all of them are 'marginalized' either, but what struck a chord with me was their descriptions of how they felt they were the lowest of the lowest of the low. I'm not gonna go in to which parts of their feelings are legit or not,  or which areas of their gripe relates to grossly inappropriate feelings of entitlement. From my perspective, that is simply what they are feeling. I have no right to dictate or control what other people feel.

 

What I'm trying to say with a flu addled mind is that feelings of persecution is very often what drives people to violence, and discourse that magnifies this isn't helpful to anyone. 

 

There was a personal poster on there that was in his early 20s. He was thinking to take his life because he was being bullied, lost his last remaining family member, had 0 things to look forward in his life and felt really isolated. He wasn't upset about rejection from prettier women. He was simply upset that society as a whole had decided he was a pariah because of how he looked, and who he was. He described discrimination at work due to his medical condition, and his difficulty in making any connection to people because of how he looked and sounded. He was upset about the loss of his family, and that all work did was to give him a disciplinary when clearly he wasn't coping with bereavement. The final straw that led him to attempt suicide? His team had planned a night out and didn't invite him. All he wanted was to be part of the team. 

 

And he didn't blame his colleagues at all, even if they have made him so upset. He saw this all as his own fault, for being born different. But his feelings could have very easily been directed differently. 

 

I am as many of you, repulsed by the idea of certain man-titlements. But I am willing to look past those thoughts to find other thoughts I can identify with as friends, discourse partners, or acquaintances. Generally, I don't think its right that as a society we over generalize in a way that promote segregation or take away chances from people to be integrated, and I feel this is a foot shooting move. 

[Ms. Carolynne]

I don't really get incel as a whole, but that's probably a given. I don't know much about it either.

 

What I do wonder though, is how much toxic masculinity plays into it. Not as an attack or anything, but in terms of how a man's value is determined (in part) by getting laid in our society.

 

Or is sex just an emotional need among allosexuals I wouldn't fully understand?

[paperbackreader]

1 hour ago, G1P0 said:

What I do wonder though, is how much toxic masculinity plays into it. Not as an attack or anything, but in terms of how a man's value is determined (in part) by getting laid in our society.

My 2 cents about this is that other people's judgement on sexual prowess for both genders is as common as other people's judgement about your career, the car you drive, the way you dress, etc. In many cultures, it's just as 'toxic' /distressing to determine a woman's value based on their ability to get married. 

 

This negative judgement affects some people more than others. I wish self efficacy and emotional resilience training is more prevalent. 

[Guest]

Sometimes, one's bitterness and negative self worth are a psychiatric issue, not a movement and certainly not a marginalized group.