Guest Jetsun Milarepa Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Today's news was very interesting. Evidently the man who ploughed his van into a group of pedestrians in Toronto had connections to a group calling themselves Incel. This evidently stands for 'Involuntarily celibates'. This group seems to have extreme views and is allied to other far right thinkers. This forum seems to be the right place to ask about this (move/lock it if not, mods). What do you know of this stuff and what do you think? Link to post Share on other sites
Skycaptain Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Let me guess. 99% of people who associate with this are male, white, have social integration issues. The basic idea of a support network for people who just can't get a date for whatever reason is in itself worthy, but not if its being used to foment mysogeny, or in the reverse mysandry. Put bluntly if people there are winding each other up with "your such a loser that you could walk into a brothel with a £50 note wrapped around your dick and all the prostitutes would run away" talk, and someone says "make a name for yourself, commit mass murder and you'll die famous", then somebody there will be dumb or disturbed enough to do so Link to post Share on other sites
Tarfeather Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 21 minutes ago, chandrakirti said: This group seems to have extreme views and is allied to other far right thinkers. This forum seems to be the right place to ask about this (move/lock it if not, mods). What is 'this group'? I've actually been involved in several incel communities myself, and actually my personal experience was the opposite. Once I saw a guy get attacked by a mod for using the noun "female" instead of "woman" because obviously only misogynist jerks who despise women use the noun "female". Link to post Share on other sites
Tarfeather Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Also, most people there were really nice, and mostly they spent their time there talking about their hobbies, lifestyle choices, etc. The worst thing I could say about the group is how a vocal minority (so, only a very small part of the group, but they'd comment on everything) would have a negative attitude about everything, scoff at any kind of constructive advice ("we're too far gone"), and would get triggered at anyone who's not a complete social outcast. Like, seriously, at the time I was a 25 year old virgin, but I wasn't incel enough for some of them because I'd been in a relationship with a girl before. Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Why would Partners and Allies have any particular interest in Incela? Link to post Share on other sites
iff Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 moved to philosophy, politics & science iff, moderator, sexual partners, friends & allies Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 "Expectation is the root of all heartache." Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said: "Expectation is the root of all heartache." And also of being able to function. If I can't expect cars to behave in a certain way based on previous experience, or don't expect a lion to attack me if I get too close, or a shopkeeper to ket me have a pint of milk after I've given them money, but go in with some Zen blankness, I'm either going to be paralysed or dead fairly soon. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 What's your point? Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 That saying expectations are a bad thing and should be removed from the equation is asinine. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Sigh. Yes, you're a genius who outwits me at every turn. Let's shorthand this... SM: Makes reasonable clarification. TC: Makes new smart ass comment which deliberately misconstrues a simple concept. SM: Bitches at TC TC: Acts completely confused by whole exchange MOD: Gives SM warning Ta da. Goodnight. Link to post Share on other sites
Shihara Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I don't know much about Incels except that it's male entitlement at its worst. Link to post Share on other sites
ben8884 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Slightly off topic but from what I can gather this person was allowed to post incendiary stuff on Facebook. Even Reddit got rid of an incel page due to insiteing violence, where was Facebook? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I think a lot of Incel types are just troglodytes who have eaten the cookie that women should be in the home raising kids and cooking dinner. I've also noticed a lot of them are into pickup artist b.s. where they think women are just some part of a game to get themselves laid. I also think a lot of them are assholes plain and simple and need to realize that they are refusing to stand and up and say I have a problem fitting in to the grand scheme of things and could use some help. They use it as an excuse in other words. But I also think there are pathological cases who maybe fall into this kind of thought incidentally, and act out in violent ways when they come to believe that they are victims. It also plays into toxic ideas of masculinity where if you aren't sexually active as a male you are defective. Its a lot of factors all wrapped up into one package. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Addendum: it is pretty obvious that most are just men who aren't violent and are having difficulty adapting to a world where things, especially relations between men and women, are changing at a rapid pace which I think should be expected in an age where the speed of communication is so rapid. Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Tarfeather said: What is 'this group'? I've actually been involved in several incel communities myself, and actually my personal experience was the opposite. Once I saw a guy get attacked by a mod for using the noun "female" instead of "woman" because obviously only misogynist jerks who despise women use the noun "female". I guess it's about how far they go down a certain road. Let's say you have this support group for involunary celibates, people who share their thoughts and experiences. A community willing to listen. Cool beans. Yet there's always a chance for things to go too far. "I don't get any. Those women must hate me." => "All women hate me" => "All women are evil." => "They need to be punished for being evil towards me and all the other men here." And there we are, turning a club founded with good intentions into something dangerous. Of course that won't apply to everyone involved, or the majority, or something even remotely close to the majority. You can have a group of 99,999 peaceful people, but the next one stepped into that van and boom, here we are discussing "incels" as a whole. As a football fan, I'm all too familiar with these mechanics and it's tiring and frustrating. Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I followed reddit /r/incel a couple of moons ago (I had been trying to understand the mindset of a particular troll, and doing some casual outreach on /r/SuicideWatch, where there were a few cross posters, and generally trying to understand what are some problems other people experience in their lives... ). Not all of them feel 'entitled', although I guess most, if not all of them do feel 'hard done by'. Some think they deserve to be castigated, others have a lot of angst about how it's unfair. Not all of them advocate violence or misogyny, although sure, there's some of that, as well as personal stories against particular women who people feel hard done by by, which have led to online bullying. And sure there is a subset of people there whose views are in the way that @Skycaptain describes, but I don't think its appropriate to say that ALL of them are like that. In my experience it's far more common that people there express their struggle with self belief /confidence and find venting a way to cope. I recognise discussions in the vein that @Tarfeather describes, and as @ABryonJ.maybesays, most of the pick up lines and scams and memes distributed are, IMHO, tasteless, some of them to the point of LOL hilarity. But there are others with lovely stories about how they've met someone after a long time, and positive affirmative messages for men, etc... So... Wh at @ABryonJ.maybedescribes sounds much more like /r/theredpill which is an ideological standpoint about relationships being far more conservative than that which I'm used to. Its not for me but if that's how they'd like to live their lives and it isn't affecting me I don't see why I should take offence just because they have a different standpoint. Don't get me wrong, I find it really hard to relate to the ideology of either groups but I guess that doesn't stop the press annoying me. What REALLY annoys me is the painting of the press that the whole incels group is like this. Incels isn't to misogyny what the ku klux clan was to racial hatred. Some of these people are on there to seek support over an ex that they just can't get over, and going through a really difficult time in their lives. It's no better than the time when the press focused in 'youth behaviour' as a by word for crime. News channels plays a pivotal public service role and they should a) be more careful about the way they skew perception b) not be generalising to sensationalise or do so with more balance and c) not be encouraging those who do commit these terrible acts of violence for whatever reason by making them famous in the way that they may have intended. Seriously guys, why enable them? @Homer relates to it much better than my lengthy rant in comparing how football fans are treated. There is a spectrum of extremism from 'don't care blasé' to 'moderate super fan' to 'hooligan that wrecks the train and glasses you in the eye' - this spectrum is true for most congregations of people. Sorry for protelysing rant mode, just dislike generalizations and sensationalist reporting... Link to post Share on other sites
Telecaster68 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, paperbackreader said: just dislike generalizations All generalisations? Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said: All generalisations? Most! Link to post Share on other sites
apatrickwsu Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 25 minutes ago, paperbackreader said: I followed reddit /r/incel a couple of moons ago It was shut down 6 months ago for repeatedly encouraging rape and other acts of violence. Link to post Share on other sites
Tarfeather Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Homer said: I guess it's about how far they go down a certain road. Let's say you have this support group for involunary celibates, people who share their thoughts and experiences. A community willing to listen. Cool beans. Yet there's always a chance for things to go too far. "I don't get any. Those women must hate me." => "All women hate me" => "All women are evil." => "They need to be punished for being evil towards me and all the other men here." And there we are, turning a club founded with good intentions into something dangerous. Of course that won't apply to everyone involved, or the majority, or something even remotely close to the majority. You can have a group of 99,999 peaceful people, but the next one stepped into that van and boom, here we are discussing "incels" as a whole. As a football fan, I'm all too familiar with these mechanics and it's tiring and frustrating. These are actually multiple, separate conversations to be had. As for the incident itself and people talking about it, that's sensationalism. It's not how critical thinkers engage in policy making and mainstream political discourse, and as such it's not really worth addressing or discussing. With regards to your chain of logic there, I don't really understand how that is supposed to be a discussion about incel groups. I mean, what that is, is essentially a symptom of a core property of a system. Kind of like how neoliberalism and corruption breed fascism. Talking about alt-right groups doesn't really address the issue, because the system is of such a nature that movements like the alt-right will inevitably appear. Likewise, having a society built so strongly on competition, personal success, superficial values, etc. with regards to sexuality, will inevitably lead to those who are left behind and frustrated, and yes at some point these people will start forming into groups and demand to be heard. 4 hours ago, CBC said: I know it's made up of whiny, socially misfit males who believe they're entitled to sex and are so bitter about their lack of ability to get it from anyone that they band together for some good old fashioned women-hating. Anything to make it not their fault they can't get laid. So that's how you see me, then? m'kay, good to have that cleared up I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 40 minutes ago, apatrickwsu said: It was shut down 6 months ago for repeatedly encouraging rape and other acts of violence. Didnt realise this, I was last there around November time and there were a couple of really nice bromance self care you're struggling we are too threads, as well as the all out 'jeez guys, really?! ' so it seems a bit of a shame to me that it's gone. But I'm sure them reddit elves know what they're doing and have good reason to do so. Encouraging rape /violence (against someone else's will) is not OK. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 There's no such thing as incel. Everyone can get laid if they want to. Period. It's easy. Incels are mad because they don't get their choice of women. That's the problem. Sane, healthy people recognize that choice goes both ways, and will lower their standards/ expectations accordingly (aka, if you're an ugly dude you gotta shoot for ugly gals). Incels are a group of men when reject women but are enraged when women reject them. And therein lies the disgustingness. Same thing with Tarfeather... didn't want to go to bars or clubs, didn't want to hire a pro, didn't want to have drunk hookups, didn't want fat ugly chicks... rather, just kept getting angry at hot women who weren't interested. Quite simply, that's not ok. Non-incels recognize they have a choice... lowered expectations or no sex. Incels want to avoid both of those options. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Jetsun Milarepa Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 This news report was the first I'd heard about such a group. Nothing surprises me any more. Link to post Share on other sites
paperbackreader Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 @Skullery Maid, not sure what's made you say that about tar, and not sure it's deserved. Also not sure the generalisation you describe applies to the group in total, although I accept that may apply to some within the group, although I agree with your observation that it's abhorrent to be angry at rejection and be unkindly rejective at the same time. I guess I feel that it's no different from any other marganlized group in society, more discrimination against and /or generalized shut downs isn't gonna make the situation any better... Link to post Share on other sites
Alejandrogynous Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I've never looked into Incel so I can't say anything about the people and how they feel or behave, but the very fact that they define themselves as "involuntarily celibate" grosses me out right off the bat because it literally makes it all about sex. I could understand a group like this for people who are lonely, who struggle with forming relationships either through their appearance, social problems, etc., and sex is a part of that, absolutely. But that's not what this sounds like. 'Involuntary celibacy' just means, "nobody will fuck me and I'm sad/mad about it," which is entitled and brattish. Unless I'm misunderstanding and Incel is really just like our Sexual Partners subforum where sex is a problem in otherwise fulfilling relationships? But that's not the impression I get. Link to post Share on other sites
Epitaph Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 Can't wait to hear the new buzzword and catch mention of the scrupulous media attention it'll garner for a few months. Thoughts on incel. Any poor sod who thinks they're celibate involuntarily may as well dump gas on themselves and light a match. It's just another "It's them not me!" scapegoat mindset. End of things as far as I'm concerned. Link to post Share on other sites
Homer Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 4 hours ago, Tarfeather said: With regards to your chain of logic there, I don't really understand how that is supposed to be a discussion about incel groups. I mean, what that is, is essentially a symptom of a core property of a system. Kind of like how neoliberalism and corruption breed fascism. Talking about alt-right groups doesn't really address the issue, because the system is of such a nature that movements like the alt-right will inevitably appear. Likewise, having a society built so strongly on competition, personal success, superficial values, etc. with regards to sexuality, will inevitably lead to those who are left behind and frustrated, and yes at some point these people will start forming into groups and demand to be heard. I probably worded my response poorly. What I meant is that the discussion about the incident and what led to it will eventually take a turn to discuss incel itself, rather than what led these people to become incels to begin with. That's a complex issue with a lot of possible root causes and given the pace most topics are dealt with, it's unlikely that such a lengthy, difficult and potentially deep discussion will remain in the focus of the general public long enough. It's just easier to have some buzzword to be able to say "Ah, those people again " and move on. Sadly... 1 hour ago, Alejandrogynous said: 'Involuntary celibacy' just means, "nobody will fuck me and I'm sad/mad about it," which is entitled and brattish. I don't see how that is "entitled and brattish"? It's just people who whish for something that doesn't seem to happen. Why shouldn't they be sad about that? If someone tried to conceive a child, but fails despite trying every trick in the book for years, wouldn't it be okay for them to be sad about that? How many threads are there on AVEN where people describe their fear of "never finding someone" because of their asexuality? Are those people "entitled and brattish", too? Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, paperbackreader said: @Skullery Maid, not sure what's made you say that about tar, and not sure it's deserved. Also not sure the generalisation you describe applies to the group in total, although I accept that may apply to some within the group, although I agree with your observation that it's abhorrent to be angry at rejection and be unkindly rejective at the same time. I guess I feel that it's no different from any other marganlized group in society, more discrimination against and /or generalized shut downs isn't gonna make the situation any better... Lol how are they a marginalized group?!? They're men who think they deserve hotter pussy than they're able to get. That's not a marginalized group. Please, define "marginalized group" in a way that doesn't insult people of color but includes people who think they should get to bang models but can't. Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 58 minutes ago, Homer said: I don't see how that is "entitled and brattish"? It's just people who whish for something that doesn't seem to happen. Why shouldn't they be sad about that? If someone tried to conceive a child, but fails despite trying every trick in the book for years, wouldn't it be okay for them to be sad about that? How many threads are there on AVEN where people describe their fear of "never finding someone" because of their asexuality? Are those people "entitled and brattish", too? You don't think it's entitled and brattish to hate women because you think hot girls should like you? Let's be clear, getting laid is absolutely nothing like being unable to conceive. Incels just need to lower their standards. A better example would be... I love driving fast. Any car that isn't a sports car just ain't worth driving. I can't afford a sports car. Instead of either saving money or buying a cheaper car, I spend my time going online deriding people who have sports cars. Now tell me... isn't that entitled and brattish? Link to post Share on other sites
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