Master Trump Thread

[Still]

29 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Anyone know any further information on whether Trump could legally resign 10 days ahead of his term ending, to have Pence take over as president to pardon him for any of his crimes?

 

I have family who are high ranking US officials and know high ranking government officials here, and that's the "word on the street" so to speak, should Trump's last ditch attempt to overthrow Biden's presidency fails.

 

His desperation is clear. His reasoning obvious, but the above move would be uncharacteristic if feasible, as would be a chess move to a guy who had shown an ability to play checkers, only. 

 

Anyone have any info on this, or know about the legality of it?

 

I would like to believe it's possible, but don't know the inner workings of the constitution well enough to know whether the info I am getting is faulty or not.

Isn't this basically what happened with Nixon and Ford?

[Fraggle Underdark]

15 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

"New" to me doesn't mean "this exact thing hasn't happened before", I meant more the general... thinking/ideology behind it and doing acts of violence. Sorry if that was unclear

I get you but I think it's valuable to be literal and clear here. And even if we're talking about the thinking or ideology, yes there has long been some voter suppression, etc, and some vague nods to the idea that political opponents are vaguely illegitimate. For example, although Trump won the 2016 election without fraud (or a majority of the vote), some people pointed out how much help he got, and even welcomed, from Russia, who committed criminal acts to assist his campaign. And sort of suggested he wasn't quite legitimate.

 

But I'm strongly opposed to Republican/Autocrat leaning people making a false equivalence between 2016 and 2020. Clinton congratulated Trump as soon as results were clear, and wished him the best and asked people to give him a chance. Trump continues to claim, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that he actually won, and is attempting to pursue every legal and illegal option to retain power.

 

Those aren't the same thing and neither is it the same to have vague intimations of illegitimacy as it is to have tens of millions of Americans be conned into thinking that fraud cost them the election due to some magical invisible conspiracy.

 

And as for acts of violence, sure if we want to be abstract about it some degree of political violence has always existed. For example most democracies were founded by violently resisting previous non-democratic governments. But again it's a false equivalence to say that lone individuals punching the neo-nazi Richard Spencer (an action I oppose) is the same as the head of the US government encouraging a mob to storm the Capitol. Or for a much milder case, to refuse to condemn the violence of white supremacists. The US does actually have strong norms against political violence and the actions of Trump, throughout his presidency, have in fact been severe deviations from those norms.

 

15 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

There has been progress, thankfully. Just not on the scale that is often said it has and at times it has been more of a superficial change, if that makes sense.

I entirely agree that it's a common problem that people overestimate how much progress there's been. People in general don't like talking about or facing unpleasant things. The history of civil rights has largely been a history of persuading people with privilege how bad it is for people without it. And the success and popularity of BLM has been a continuation of that. But yeah it's an issue and I think society is gaining more meta-awareness of it (indeed, it's interesting that we're talking about it now). That is, more people are becoming aware that society keeps assuming things are better than they are.

[Fraggle Underdark]

Just now, Merryman said:

Wouldn’t Trump have to be formally charged or indicted in order for Pence to pardon him? 

I know there was some talk floated of "preemptive pardons" but offhand I don't think that's been done before. And it would be extremely weird and against the spirit of the system to pardon himself, even if he technically has a flunky do it.

 

That said, Trump and Pence are not on good terms right now. Aides said that the overarching theme of Trump's day was his feeling of betrayal by Pence (because he chose the Constitution over Trump) and that Trump was "so angry he couldn't see straight". On the other side, a senator said that he's known Pence since forever and he's never seen Pence as angry as he was today.

[Forest Spirit]

4 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

valuable to be literal and clear here

Got it, sometimes I'm thinking too abstract to explain myself properly. And yes, the current situation is distinct in what exactly happens what I wanted to get at is that it's however not some sudden master plan coming into action or sudden occurrence wrt people's actions/beliefs but has been building up or... Idk the potential has been there for a while?

Maybe I'm also just comparing it (too much?) to other countries throughout time in my mind, which is why it's not "new" to me but rather a repetition with different people and different details

14 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

That is, more people are becoming aware that society keeps assuming things are better than they are.

I'd change that to "much better" but yes, awareness is spreading!

[Still]

I think Rose is right in that Trump isn't solely to blame. There's definitely been in a shift in discussion in the last ten years or so: the early 2000s were a pretty terrible time when it comes to public discussion, but even then conspiracy theories, neo-Nazis and the like were generally considered a joke. Fast forward to 2021 and the US has elected multiple QAnon believers to public office, and Nazis have openly organized at least one rally. I don't really know what the root cause of this is, but I agree with Rose that Trump definitely didn't do this: the people who were open to these kinds of beliefs just decided to coalesce behind him. He definitely did incite and embolden them towards the end of his term, especially with this "election fraud" stuff.

 

This is what I meant when I said the US is starting to resemble a failed state. Healthy democracies don't have conspiracy theories running amok like this.

[Fraggle Underdark]

24 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Maybe I'm also just comparing it (too much?) to other countries throughout time in my mind, which is why it's not "new" to me but rather a repetition with different people and different details

Definitely similar to democratic backsliding and autocratic movements in other countries. The US has had such deeply ingrained democratic norms for so long, and our institutions have held for so long, that people start thinking there's something magical about the US. Or that for one reason or another nothing too crazy will ever happen. Regardless of the size or number of lies told by the president or any number of his Autocratic allies.

 

I'm actually quite glad that his mob stormed the capitol, given that almost no one was hurt. (3 people died of medical emergencies, not sure of details on that yet so there may have been some pro-democracy casualties, and 1 woman died after being shot while breaking into the Capitol through a window. She might have been a nice person who was just indoctrinated into the cult but I find it hard to feel terribly sorry for e.g. someone who tries to hold up a bank and gets shot, or someone who tries to take a selfie with a wild lion and gets eaten. She knew there were risks to trying to invade the US legislature by force.)

 

Because it's not surprising to me that this insurrection happened. But it makes clear to everyone just what Trumpism is about and it does so before Trumpists succeed at overthrowing the government. It shows that yes, when Trump keeps calling on his cultists to fight the government that they're eventually going to start fighting the government. I wish people didn't need to see something happen for them to realize it's real, but this was such a visual way of making it clear to everyone. Lies have consequences and there's no magic force that protects the US from autocracy.

[Forest Spirit]

14 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

Lies have consequences and there's no magic force that protects the US from autocracy.

^very true

[Sean_Bird]

1 hour ago, Quasar.w said:

What I personally take out of Rose's comment is, that the issues/actions we've seen esp. last year are not new but stem from various underlying problems that haven't been "really" dealt with for decades and longer.

This was my interpretation as well. Rose's wording sounded like venting and voicing frustration about racism, which has been very prevalent in this country for a long time. I suspect that I differ with them on some things, but I empathize heavily with that unending frustration, and am similarly tired of blatant racism in politics being either ignored or supported.

 

I agree with most of what you said, and similarly think in abstract terms. ^^

 

1 hour ago, Quasar.w said:

When I read this on the news after waking up today (do NOT recommend) my first reaction was disbelief but... thinking about it, it's not surprising. Sadly

I was initially not surprised when I first heard about it; but when I saw footage of people scaling the wall and breaking windows to get into the symbol of democracy for our country-- and the police standing by and barely doing shit when they were going nuts on nonviolent protesters in 2020-- it hit pretty hard. Watching people with American flags and "Make America Great Again" hats launch an attack on the Capitol, especially so successfully, was surreal.

[Forest Spirit]

3 minutes ago, Sean_Bird said:

but when I saw footage

Honestly, I haven't watched any footage yet as I was worried it would be similarly upsetting as f.e. when streets were "cleared" for the foto op in summer (? what has time become). But pictures and descriptions already gave a sense of... yes I think "surreal" is a good description of my initial reaction

[Sean_Bird]

9 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Honestly, I haven't watched any footage yet as I was worried it would be similarly upsetting as f.e. when streets were "cleared" for the foto op in summer (? what has time become). But pictures and descriptions already gave a sense of... yes I think "surreal" is a good description of my initial reaction

It's only day 6 (now 7) of 2021 and this is what we're dealing with

(Below image isn't violent)

Spoiler

 

2021 is off to a great start. 👍

[Still]

22 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

Honestly, I haven't watched any footage yet as I was worried it would be similarly upsetting as f.e. when streets were "cleared" for the foto op in summer (? what has time become). But pictures and descriptions already gave a sense of... yes I think "surreal" is a good description of my initial reaction

There's footage of that woman being shot to death out there, so best be careful if you don't want to see upsetting material.

[Forest Spirit]

7 minutes ago, Sean_Bird said:

2021 is off to a great start.

It's just the continuation of an extra messed up 2020.

The image is almost funny if the message/ideology behind it weren't real😕

[Sean_Bird]

17 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

It's just the continuation of an extra messed up 2020.

Yeeeeeeeeeet

 

17 minutes ago, Quasar.w said:

The image is almost funny if the message/ideology behind it weren't real😕

Yeah. It's terrifying and there are a lot of terrible things going on, and things that will result from this. Being able to pause and chuckle at the absurdity makes it feel a little less scary and easier to absorb, though. At least for me.

[Homer]

11 hours ago, fragglesinthedark said:

democracy is still working.

I don't consider the US to be a democracy. If you actively make it hard for people to vote,  you don't deserve to call yourself a democracy.

[NewStart]

10 hours ago, pickles mcgee said:

Powerful statement by NAM; thanks for the link.

Completely off topic, but on a light note...I love your name Pickles McGee!  Awesome!👍🏻

[NewStart]

49 minutes ago, Homer said:

I don't consider the US to be a democracy. If you actively make it hard for people to vote,  you don't deserve to call yourself a democracy.

We are definitely are on the train that is running fast toward the cliff.  I don’t represent in any way, shape or form these people are, but at the moment I am ashamed to be an American.  I can only imagine what the rest of the world thinks of us.

[NewStart]

1 hour ago, Sean_Bird said:

It's only day 6 (now 7) of 2021 and this is what we're dealing with

(Below image isn't violent)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

2021 is off to a great start. 👍

Hopefully when the presidency changes hands things will get better.🙏🙏🤞🤞

[Still]

Things aren't going to suddenly get better just because Biden is in office. These people are still going to be out there, and Trump will also probably be encouraging them. Worst case is that they start doing things like this regularly with the justification that Biden "stole the election".

[R_1]

2 hours ago, Still said:

There's footage of that terrorist woman being shot to death out there.

FTFY. They do not deserve sympathy or support. This is a much better version of your post as it highlight the severity of the crime.

[NewStart]

20 minutes ago, Still said:

Things aren't going to suddenly get better just because Biden is in office. These people are still going to be out there, and Trump will also probably be encouraging them. Worst case is that they start doing things like this regularly with the justification that Biden "stole the election".

I agree that it won’t be a light switch that turns on and instantly gets better.  The damage is too large and bad for that to happen.  Unfortunately, I agree the cultists are not going away, which is concerning.  I am a moderate by nature, extremists lead to destruction and deaths.  My moderate nature wants to have some hope for the future though.

[Still]

4 minutes ago, R_1 said:

FTFY. They do not deserve sympathy or support. This is a much better version of your post as it highlight the severity of the crime.

My post wasn't about sympathy or support at all. It was just a warning to anyone who doesn't want to see a video of someone dying.

[Tetus]

Article worth reading - I'll note this was written on 11/10/2020:

https://indica.medium.com/i-lived-through-a-coup-america-is-having-one-now-437934b1dac3

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Epic Tetus
added link i forgot

[Homer]

Next level trolling  

[~Nadia~]

13 hours ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

Trump did not start this. Trump did not cause this. Trump didn't even begin to incite it. And for pete's sake, stop saying he did! You're giving him credit for something far bigger and more complex than his lazy little coward brain could ever accomplish. It makes him feel good. He loves taking credit for big things he never had to lift a finger for. Don't be responsible for making Trump feel good about himself. Even if he can't actually hear you.

I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to disagree with you right there.

Yes, Trump did start this. He had a rally near by the Capitol building and told his cult followers to storm the Capitol. He later told them to go home, and be peaceful, while spewing more BS about how the election, but the cat was already out of the bag. That disgrace of a video message doesn't erase the damage he has done.

[Tetus]

1 minute ago, ~Nadia~ said:

I'm sorry but I'm gonna have to disagree with you right there.

Yes, Trump did start this. He had a rally near by the Capitol building and told his cult followers to storm the Capitol. He later told them to go home, and be peaceful, while spewing more BS about how the election, but the cat was already out of the bag. That disgrace of a video message doesn't erase the damage he has done.

To add to this, just read the text of his message:

---

I know your pain. I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election, and everyone knows it, especially the other side.

But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great people in law and order. We don’t want anybody hurt. It’s a very tough period of time.

There’s never been a time like this where such a thing happened where they could take it away from all of us — from me, from you, from our country. This was a fraudulent election.

But we can’t play into the hands of these people. We have to have peace. So go home. We love you. You’re very special. You’ve seen what happens. You see the way others are treated — that are so bad and so evil. I know how you feel, but go home and go home in peace.

---

Not only does this not undo the damage, it confirms the motivations of the mob. "You're totally in the right, and this is the worst thing to ever happen, but, you know, be good!"

[daveb]

No, Tr*mp isn't solely responsible. I don't know anyone credible who is saying he is. But he is most certainly responsible, and as the president is more responsible than most anyone else. Of course, there are senators and congress members who are also responsible. There are members of the "media" (to use the term loosely) who are responsible. There are even regular people who are responsible. But there are reasons ringleaders are often targeted the most heavily when it comes to stopping and punishing such things as this coup. Like the famous plaque on Truman's desk said "the buck stops here". Unfortunately Tr*mp apparently thinks that's about money rather than responsibility.

[Missing]

I just wanted to share this short video of a reporter interviewing one of the Trump supporters who was storming the capitol...

 

Spoiler

 

It’s tempting for me to just be dumbfounded by her expectations that were beyond unrealistic, to put it very lightly, and move on with my day. But honestly I think this is an example of someone who doesn’t and can’t know any better, who trusted that nothing bad would happen to her by doing what the President of the United States told her to do.

 

These weren’t (all) white supremacist militia members who were just waiting for their leader to give them the go ahead, although a significant number of them were just that. It’s a tragedy when anyone is groomed and brainwashed into a cult, and that can happen to anyone. Here, not only is that exactly what Trump is leading, but he’s doing so from the highest office in the land. And he mobilized his victims to commit crimes that will likely put them in prison for the foreseeable future because he decided to put the weight of his office and influence behind throwing his pathetic, selfish tantrum that had no hope whatsoever of accomplishing anything for anyone.

 

This has all been like peeling a moldy, rotted onion. The more layers I pull back, the more disgusting it gets.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, daveb said:

No, Tr*mp isn't solely responsible. I don't know anyone credible who is saying he is. But he is most certainly responsible, and as the president is more responsible than most anyone else. Of course, there are senators and congress members who are also responsible. There are members of the "media" (to use the term loosely) who are responsible. There are even regular people who are responsible. But there are reasons ringleaders are often targeted the most heavily when it comes to stopping and punishing such things as this coup. Like the famous plaque on Truman's desk said "the buck stops here". Unfortunately Tr*mp apparently thinks that's about money rather than responsibility.

I agree.

 

He carries the brunt of the blame for this. Refused to end it by condemning the violence. 

 

Rob Ford called those in our province a "bunch of yahoos" for protesting against wearing masks". With it came a level of ridicule and shame.

 

It made things clear. He was against that level of idiocy.

 

Not doing so makes you complicit with it.

 

Him telling them to go home, is like a cop catching me going 50mph over the limit, and telling me to "keep it off the main roads, please".

 

I can't fathom someone still supporting the guy, *even* if it were found that the elections had in fact been stolen. 

 

Fight it out legally. Let laws do their job. Be humble in defeat. 

 

I think it was a late show host who had noticed of Trump, in being that kid "who loses the soccer game, and takes his ball and goes home".

[Rockblossom]

22 minutes ago, Mackenzie Holiday said:

And he mobilized his victims to commit crimes that will likely put them in prison

And I am astounded that they not only complied, but posted selfies (not wearing masks, of course) inside the Capitol and gave interviews to reporters, documenting their own sedition.  While that will make it a lot easier for the FBI to arrest them and get them convicted, it still leaves me pounding my head in despair at their cluelessness/blind compliance.  They still seem to think that what they did was minor, even though two pipe bombs and various assault weapons were found in the Capital building and 4 people died.  Much of it could have been prevented if the President hadn't stonewalled calling in the National Guard.  In fact, the NG should have been mobilized early in the day as it was before the BLM protests, but he refused to do that.  

 

 

[Fraggle Underdark]

7 hours ago, Homer said:

I don't consider the US to be a democracy. If you actively make it hard for people to vote,  you don't deserve to call yourself a democracy.

A non-standard definition but I won't stop you from using your own definition of the word. A more typical description would be a democracy with some voter suppression. (And it's worth distinguishing voter suppression of different kinds, like attacking people at polling places vs having longer lines in areas with more dark-skinned people. Both are bad but progress is still good.)

 

It's also worth noting here that Democrats did well despite voter suppression. Georgia has a fair bit of it and it still elected Biden and 2 Democratic (and democratic) senators. Doesn't mean the voter suppression isn't a serious problem but the will of the people was still reflected.