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Master Trump Thread


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Also, to anyone near or in Washington DC, I want to urge you to stay home if you can!! The arrest of the Proud Boys leader, Enrique Tarrio, will only make the event more volatile, and fighting in DC will just make things worse.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2021/01/04/5-reasons-to-avoid-the-january-6-pro-trump-marches-in-dc/

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3 hours ago, fragglesinthedark said:

There's the 300k US covid deaths that a better administration could have reduced, but by how much is up to debate.

Best projections still were in the 200k or more range. The numbers were dire, regardless how you looked at things.

 

Trump's quick closures of the border were good moves. He just crapped the bed with the remainder of his actions.

 

Keep in mind, influenza numbers have seen a 98% dip (roughly).

 

Also, that freedoms are what would have complicated things.

 

I am in Canada, and while our numbers per capita are way better, we still flip flopped on mask wearing like many countries, which cost thousands of lives easily.

 

Many US hot spots compare to cities like Toronto. A high demographic of low wage essential workers, who couldn't work from home. Thats like putting a lit match among millions of others that are not and hoping for the best.

 

Meaning, huge infection rates were all but inevitable until mask wearing became mandatory in all public spaces. A daunting task in the US for any politician.

 

Honestly. Biden likely would have shut down for far longer, but you are then dealing with serious mental health issues, and drug overdose spikes.

 

There is no clean way to do this.

 

Whereas  there is no doubt in Bush's error. 

 

There was no reason for the war. Many children died for nothing. 

 

One is idiocy and negligence. The other is purely barbaric. 

 

Very easy for Iraq to be free when immense portions of their infrastructure are destroyed.

 

Bush invaded Iraq over oil. Not to help out Iraq.

 

You don't spend trillions of dollars in military to help others. You spend trillions to ensure your interests are protected.

 

With that into consideration, Bush's war is even worse.

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Fraggle Underdark
27 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Bush invaded Iraq over oil. Not to help out Iraq.

 

You don't spend trillions of dollars in military to help others. You spend trillions to ensure your interests are protected.

 

With that into consideration, Bush's war is even worse.

It's impossible to say Bush's exact reason for pushing for war. Greatly complicating the issue is that his advisors, who AFAIK were the ones who convinced him to go to war, each may have had their own reasons. And certainly there were some who were motivated by oil. But it's also clear that neoconservatism was strong in the administration at that time. ("neoconservativism" is a term which is hard to guess its meaning if you don't know it, but IIRC was largely about expanding democracy and freedoms in the world by toppling autocracies.) So we know that at least a lot of people saw it as a moral good to topple autocrats like Hussein. But what exact thoughts were in Bush's mind, no way to be sure of course. Regardless of what evidence is there, some people are going to say any contrary evidence was lies. Up to reader discretion.

 

As for money spent, a lot of Americans are unaware but Bush is very popular in Africa because he did a lot for health and infrastructure there, in particular a program for providing AIDS drugs, a program on which the US has spent 80 billion so far (I think it's still going). Of course that's a lot less than a 1 to 3 trillion, but I don't see any ironclad argument that the US never spends sums like that to improve lives. For example AFAICT about 60% of the federal budget goes to Medicare, Social Security, and a nutrition program I'm not familiar with.

 

All that said, in-depth discussions of the Iraq War would be kind of off-topic for this thread. The covid deaths are not the reason I consider Trump the worst president we've had. It's not the first time we've seen poor management from a president, but it is the first time we've seen a coup attempt, and a baldly corrupt one at that, while he tries to set fire to US democracy.

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21 minutes ago, fragglesinthedark said:

It's impossible to say Bush's exact reason for pushing for war.

Depends. If you listen to their propaganda or if you read into things, you get a totally different answer.

 

You go to war to protect your national interests. 

 

He had billions of dollars worth of interests in Iraq. Plus oil was traded via OPEC with US dollars.

 

Sadam quickly pulling out of the accord would have been disastrous for the US economy. 

 

Easier to put a puppet than have to manage a rogue leader.

 

Why do you think the US doesn't bother with North Korea?

 

No interests. 

 

Why do you think the heavy handed military conflicts always affected countries with billions of dollars worth of interests?

 

Why do you think Iraq was attacked, when the country responsible for the attacks for the most part, was one of the US' most lucrative oil partners?

 

There are a lot of things the news don't tell you.

 

To compare covid deaths to this  would be silly.

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Fraggle Underdark

If we're going to continue discussing the Iraq War in this thread we should at least do so in spoilers, as it's not related to Trump.
 

Spoiler


23 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Depends. If you listen to their propaganda or if you read into things, you get a totally different answer.

Thanks, but my opinion is not based on their propaganda.

 

But while we're trading platitudes, if you listen to the off-the-cuff analyses on the street vs the in-depth analytic pieces by historians and experienced government officials, you get a totally different answer.

 

24 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

You go to war to protect your national interests.

All wars are always done for national interest? A claim that would require a lot of evidence. Or a fairly broad interpretation of "national interest" which renders the statement into "wars are done for reasons that motivate the countries to go to war".

 

26 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Why do you think the US doesn't bother with North Korea?

The Iraq war was deeply unpopular both in the US and internationally. This is sufficient reason.

 

If it weren't, another sufficient reason: they have nukes.

 

27 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Why do you think the heavy handed military conflicts always affected countries with billions of dollars worth of interests?

Are you asking why military conflicts which cost lots of money are done by countries that have lots of money?

 

29 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

To compare covid deaths to this  would be silly.

Why?

 

 

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13 hours ago, fragglesinthedark said:

Also, for those interested in motivations in addition to results, I think Bush actually thought the Iraq war would be good for the world. A lot of his advisors were big proponents of toppling authoritarian regimes and trying to install more democratic governments. The Iraq war was a bad idea but Bush's motivations weren't just corrupt self-aggrandizement.

What? No, they were big proponents of warmongering, imperialism and military-industrial complex profits. "Freedom" and "democracy" are always the excuses used to justify wars and "regime changes"; notice how these ghouls don't care about autocracies as long as they're allied with the US, and in fact Hussein and many other dictators were put in power by the US. I'm pretty sick of people whitewashing neocons - every Bush administration member should be rotting in jail.

 

To bring this back to Trump, John Bolton, one of the psychopaths in question, he called Trump "irrational" for not starting a war with Iran. This guy makes Trump look good!

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Calligraphette_Coe
16 hours ago, ~Nadia~ said:

Trump: The election was rigged!! I should've won!! 😭

 

Also Trump: *to the Secretary of State in Georgia* Rig this election for me, or else.

He sounded like a high pressure telemaketer! Wouldn't it be great if people would just stop taking his phone calls and let him stew about being ghosted for the fraud he is? I doubt there is anything that could be considered as a crime to just refuse to communicate with him for the next 2 weeks. 

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17 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

He sounded like a high pressure telemaketer! Wouldn't it be great if people would just stop taking his phone calls and let him stew about being ghosted for the fraud he is? I doubt there is anything that could be considered as a crime to just refuse to communicate with him for the next 2 weeks. 

That would be wonderful. If everyone just stopped giving him attention - period. 😂

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Calligraphette_Coe
3 hours ago, ~Nadia~ said:

That would be wonderful. If everyone just stopped giving him attention - period. 😂

What would be even more wonderful is if the two U.S. Senate candidates won election today in Georgia and threw the Senate out of Republican hands. Without the Senage to back up his mischief, he would truly be a lame duck president. And if that should happen, it would be poetic justice for history to record that his attempted interference in the Georgia elections came back to bite him BIGLY, that serving as a lesson to future autocratic politiicians what happens when you get too big for your pants.

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Fraggle Underdark
2 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

He sounded like a high pressure telemaketer! Wouldn't it be great if people would just stop taking his phone calls and let him stew about being ghosted for the fraud he is? I doubt there is anything that could be considered as a crime to just refuse to communicate with him for the next 2 weeks. 

Amusingly, Trump called the Arizona governor while he was being filmed certifying the election results. (You can tell by the ringtone, which the governor had said several times he set for calls from the White House.) The governor just silences it and goes on with doing adult stuff, like doing his job and obeying the law.

 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/528115-arizona-governor-appeared-to-get-call-from-trump-during-vote

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Fraggle Underdark
13 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

And if that should happen, it would be poetic justice for history to record that his attempted interference in the Georgia elections came back to bite him BIGLY, that serving as a lesson to future autocratic politiicians what happens when you get too big for you pants.

At this point however he's not the only Autocratic US politician. There are the 126 House Autocrats who signed onto the Texas lawsuit to overturn a fair election, and the 12 Autocratic senators and 140 or so House Autocrats who plan to object to the electoral college vote.

 

(Many of them spew things like "We just want a commission to look into election fraud so people can trust the system" even though the Justice Department, the courts, and the election officials already said it's fair and that didn't change everyone's mind, and these same politicians have been echoing the conspiracy theories about the election. If they actually wanted to convey trust in the election they could just tell people what they know: that the election was fair. Point people to some of the many, many debunking resources for the many, many Autocratic lies. But they're not doing that because they're Autocrats and they'll lie and deceive however they can to take and hold power, elections be damned.)

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Fraggle Underdark
1 minute ago, Merryman said:

Apparently, he's trying to flee to Scotland a day before Biden's inauguration so Nicola Sturgeon has publicly warned him that coming here to play golf isn't essential travel. https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/nicola-sturgeon-warns-donald-trump-coming-play-golf-scotland-not-essential-travel-3085847

Hah.

 

It's also funny how real news sources continue to mention the response of White House spokespeople. I think they approximately have to, due to a journalistic code to mention responses of people talked about in an article, but official releases from Trump's White House will always and inevitably be whatever spin they think sounds best. It's like "let's see what the people who always say Trump is reasonable have to say...oh look they said Trump is reasonable." There's approximately zero information there from an information theory perspective. Readers would learn just as much if those were left out.

 

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2 hours ago, fragglesinthedark said:

Amusingly, Trump called the Arizona governor while he was being filmed certifying the election results. (You can tell by the ringtone, which the governor had said several times he set for calls from the White House.) The governor just silences it and goes on with doing adult stuff, like doing his job and obeying the law.

 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/528115-arizona-governor-appeared-to-get-call-from-trump-during-vote

And with the Georgia call the reporting is that it took something like 18 calls before he finally got to talk to the Georgia people. I don't know why that was apparently the case, but it is funny.

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3 hours ago, Merryman said:

Apparently, he's trying to flee to Scotland a day before Biden's inauguration so Nicola Sturgeon has publicly warned him that coming here to play golf isn't essential travel. https://www.scotsman.com/health/coronavirus/nicola-sturgeon-warns-donald-trump-coming-play-golf-scotland-not-essential-travel-3085847

Oh my gosh, that's hilarious!! What an idiot. 😂

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https://www.capitalgazette.com/news/nation-world/ct-nw-nyt-trump-pence-election-results-20210106-36waujzejrh5rb5jmiwyjugn2q-story.html

 

"The president has told several people privately that he would rather lose with people thinking it was stolen from him than that he simply lost, according to people familiar with his remarks."

 

"In the days immediately after the election on Nov. 3, Trump was in shock but understood that he had lost, advisers said. But the more time that has passed, and the more that he has been enabled by a small group of people who have fed his belief that there is a mechanism to wipe away Biden’s win, the more invested in trying to reverse the outcome Trump has become."

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In case anyone is not aware, pro-Trump protesters have forced their way into the Capitol building, assaulted police, and currently occupy various parts of the US Capitol Building. Congress members and press are being evacuated:

 

https://twitter.com/i/events/1346454323635527680

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4 minutes ago, Epic Tetus said:

In case anyone is not aware, pro-Trump protesters have forced their way into the Capitol building, assaulted police, and currently occupy various parts of the US Capitol Building. Congress members and press are being evacuated:

 

https://twitter.com/i/events/1346454323635527680

I wish I could say I was shocked in addition to disgusted.

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Aaron C. Davis on Twitter: "BREAKING: A source tells me The Defense Department has just denied a request by DC officials to deploy the National Guard to the US Capitol." / Twitter

 

So, it appears as though they were/are being allowed to do this. I, and others, on social media, saw the police standing around, allowing the protesters to remove and knock down the barriers that had been put up, or bike police only using a few, tiny sprays of mace on a few protestors.

 

There's been a big difference on how police and the National Guard were called on and treated BLM protestors this past summer, who weren't storming Capital buildings, but were in the street (i.e. using large amounts of tear gas, constantly spraying everyone; rubber bullets that seriously injured people and took out some of their eyes; shoving people to the ground, etc.) 

 

I haven't seen video footage of any of those things being used, this time; it's just like the last time when several, Trump supporters stormed another federal building with guns and got into the police's faces: basically, being allowed to do whatever they want, without the police, National Guard, etc. doing much to restrain them, arrest them, or forcing them to leave the streets with tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. (not saying I'm all for them using all of those things on them, too, just pointing out the hypocrisy, that they're still being treated a lot better than BLM protestors who weren't even storming federal buildings).

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Quote 

 

"If this was a different country on a different continent it would be a failed state" 

 

This damning Indictment from Nick Bryant 

 

What next? Discussions at the UN Security Council?, Calls for sanctions, trade embargoes, freezing of Trump's overseas assets? Far from being the world's police, the USA is becoming the most in need of the police 

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6 minutes ago, LeChat said:

There's been a big difference on how police and the National Guard were called on and treated BLM protestors this past summer, who weren't storming Capital buildings, but were in the street (i.e. using large amounts of tear gas, constantly spraying everyone; rubber bullets that seriously injured people and took out some of their eyes; shoving people to the ground, etc.)

This is an incredibly important point that can't be emphasized enough.

 

Jesus christ, I wouldn't even be surprised if some of these cops just joined right in.

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Spoiler

 

Not to derail, but what is the middle guy wearing? Why would someone run around shirtless but then wear gloves?

Quote

"A small group of protesters managed to get inside the Capitol building around 2 p.m. Wednesday. Sessions of the House and Senate were abruptly recessed as the building was placed under lockdown."

gettyimages-1230453313.jpg

 

So as I'm posting this there's audio from CBS playing-- the "protestors" may have teargased the police?

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/dc-protests-trump-supporters-clash-washington-capitol-police-live-updates/

 

 

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Just now, DGT said:

000-guns-floor.jpg

 

Guns drawn on the floor of the Capitol

According to CBS, a shot was fired (heard) and someone bloody was carried out. Not confirmed who or how they were injured, though. 

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PBS reporting that someone has been shot inside the capitol building. They indicated that it was not an officer, so likely a protester.

 

I know this is an unprecedented time and the initial response to this situation was laughable, but this is more than just a tale of two protests and their unequal treatment by law enforcement. The actions of these protestors are so far beyond the pale, and have disrupted an active process of government. The Senate was in the process of receiving the votes of the Electoral College.

 

Earlier today, the President asserted that Michael Pence had the power and obligation to overturn the results of the election on the Senate floor.

 

Now, he sits in the White House, and the most communication the public has received as this unfolds are these two tweets:

---

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
14m
I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you!

---
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
48m
Please support our Capitol Police and Law Enforcement. They are truly on the side of our Country. Stay peaceful!

---

 

As I type this post, I'm watching live coverage of people literally scaling the walls of the Capitol Building. If you are a US citizen, whatever your political affiliation, this is the literal seat of government under literal attack. The attack was incited by the sitting President earlier today, who was actively calling for the results of the democratic election to be overturned so that he can remain in power.

 

Those two tweets have been the extent of his response.

 

I encourage everyone to remember the events of today, and think back to all the times over the last few months as people have asked why those on the left are so concerned with the rhetoric of the President and the Republican Party.

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Fraggle Underdark
9 minutes ago, SocialMorays said:

Jesus christ, I wouldn't even be surprised if some of these cops just joined right in.

I would be very surprised myself if the cops joined in. Their duty is to enforce the rules and prevent chaos, not join in, and they know that. Plus they'd risk losing their job.

 

Which is not to say the treatment towards Trump's cultists is equal with the treatment towards BLM protestors. I'm guessing that 2 main things drive the difference. First is identification/racism, where the cops are more likely to understand the mental state of otherwise pretty mainstream Americans (aside from being cult members), to say "well they're insane but they're concerned about US democracy and I want people to be able to protest". Whereas BLM protests, that can be seen as a newer movement, as in "well people weren't doing such big protests about policing before, why now?" And naturally police are going to be more sympathetic to police, just as humans are always more sympathetic to people like them.

 

Second is politics. There was no threat that the BLM folks would actually try to overthrow the US government. But Trump cultists are likely to try. So I think out of pure political practicality they want to be able to say in hindsight "look, the US government has been very fucking lenient with you, you've been heard, now go home and learn how elections actually work."

 

Also, AFAIK only a small fraction of BLM protests were teargassed and shot with rubber bullets. So there's statistics, in that perhaps as there are more of these there will be more of those measures against the cultists. And there's also that the police might have tried to shift in general away from those tactics, and the cultist protests are more recent.

 

To be clear I support BLM and am vehemently opposed to the burning down of democracy by the Trump cult. Just want to add my read on the law enforcement motivations.

 

And in closing, the actions of the Trump cultists are fucking insane here. They are literally invading the US government, though they'll easily be repulsed. I just think that law enforcement's lenience is largely meant to help deprogram the cultists.

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What are they planning to do? They are storming the Capitol to... do what? Stop Congress from counting the already Certified Elector votes? Congress can't do anything once a State has certified its Electors; this show today is entirely pro-forma. In fact, SCOTUS in Bush v Gore set the precedent even more recently than any other time that only the States have control over their Electors, and that's how they put Bush in office ("Well, Florida said he won by 535 votes, and no one can gainsay the Sates, so...")

 

What do the "protesters" (insurrectionists) want to do? Are they going to take over Congress and start legislating their Trumpist agenda? (Which is what, btw? Opening up more National Parks to the extraction industry? Burning more coal for electricity? Giving out security clearances to more of Trump's friends and family?) What is this supposed to accomplish? Even Wall St. is against them. Stocks soared today on the news that the Senate is flipping to the Dems because they want to see a big stimulus that they know the Republicans won't pass. All the generals and admirals, active and retired, have abandoned them. Who do they have on their side? What ally of the US still wants to remain an ally unless this insanity is reversed?

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Fraggle Underdark
Just now, DGT said:

What are they planning to do? They are storming the Capitol to... do what?

Thinking is not their strong suit :P

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