Let's Talk Compromise and Accomodation - May get Graphic

[shaneod]

edit

[Sally]

I realized earlier today that I have really slacked off on some of the little things I used to do ... ie, have a romantic dinner ready when she comes in; surprise her with a fresh bouquet of roses; hide a little piece of jewelery under her pillow, spontaneously provide a good long foot massage, etc. I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that I know there isn't going to be a pay-off ... ie, a romp in the hay. I have gotta work on that.

I will say as an asexual who had a very long partnership with a sexual before he or I knew what was really going on with me, the thought that someone was giving me roses/jewelry/massages would not have made me more interested in sex. It might have made me feel guilty about turning down sex, but not more interested, or made it more comfortable. A foot massage in exchange for doing something you don't want to do just doesn't sound like a good deal, no matter whether the foot massage is offered lovingly or whatever.

With some asexuals, that might make a difference. With others, no. And if your particular asexual feels that way, it probably wouldn't suit you either as a sexual.

[Lizzy23]

But I need her to compromise too. I'd like it if she could agree to sex even once per week, no foreplay (she doesn't like that anyway). It all depends on how she really feels about it. I guess because she has probably thought that she's somehow deficient all these years, she has lied to me in the past about how she views sex -- lied to spare my feelings I think. Now I want the truth from her. I need the truth. If she is going to feel physically ill by the thought of physical intimacy with me, then we have no future as a couple. If she can tolerate occasional intimacy (once weekly, over pretty quick to minimise the discomfort for her), then I hope we can make a go of it.

Our problem is compounded, as I said earlier, by the distance that seperates us (thousands of miles and an ocean). We speak daily, but obviously there's no physical contact for months on end. When I did visit her recently, for a week, we had sex just once. Bearing in mind I had no idea about asexuality, I hope you can see why that hurt me. I think one of our compromises should also be that in the future, when we do meet, we have sex slightly more often, because for months we have no direct contact at all. I think this suits her more than it does me, and she's acknowledged as much.

Please be aware of the pitfalls the 'compromises' that you proposed might have. She might grow to develop mixed feelings at the idea of you visiting her, knowing very well that she will be pressed to gratify you sexually.

I am in a similar situation (long distance relationship with a sexual and an asexual), though I am the asexual one. For a while, whilst my boyfriend and I were still living together, we had an agreement like yours, though we did not have the rigid 'once per week' rule. Because I felt pressed to give in fairly regularly, this led me away from him. Every time he would become affectionate, I was afraid he was coming to collect 'his due' and I would push him away. Indeed, it often was, and this led him not only feeling bitter and rejected, but also feeling like he was 'begging' for something he thought was only normal. And I, I was afraid to even be affectionate, as I was afraid that he would try to seize that as an opportunity to drag me to the bed. When our relationship became a long distance one, I even grew fearful of his visits for a while, as I was afraid he would 'jump on' me for sexual gratification, when I had grown accustomed not to have any physical contact at all.

Thankfully, he tacitly realised the situation and the possibly disastrous effects it could have on our relationship, and he lets me be. He does not force me to yield to him any more. I am thankful for that: I think that ultimately, it would have destroyed my feelings for him, as I would become more and more fearful, distant and reluctant. I do not know how long this will last, as he does not want to talk about it, but at least, I am eager for his visits now, instead of the mixed feelings I used to have.

I am not saying that your compromise is going to fail, just that if you press on your girlfriend to yield to you 'once per week or else' against her desires, you might drive her away. She might grow to resent you, because of what might seem like painful to fulfil "selfish, one-sided requests".

[sexless sexual]

Newbie, here. Found you by Googling "asexual marriage." So glad I did!

Where to start? There's so much to say, so much to ask and so much to respond to.

Starcat: I've been doing a LOT of research, and I was struck by this (and I think I found it here on AVEN) little item -- One's sexuality can, and often does, shift. Just because you've taken the backwards steps doesn't mean you will never, ever, ever make baby steps forward in the future. That said, I am absolutely convinced that no lover forces sex on the beloved. Otherwise, we're talking about something other than love!

Walrus! Buddy! Compatriot! My situation: I'm highly sexual, husband is asexual. We've been married for 15 years, have not had sex for the last 13 (!) and it has been ... difficult. I wouldn't force in any case, but it's really hard to force a man, you know? There's a lot more to this tale, but for right now, let me do some other responses to what's been said. I'll come back and fill in, if anyone is interested.

"Compromise." There's lots of ways to look at that. "They" say that in a 50/50 win, everyone wins, when in fact, while no one completely loses, no one wins, either. "Compromise" does not mean the asexual adjusts enough to give sex. On the other hand, it doesn't mean the sexual partner gets none at all, either.

But most importantly, "compromise" does not work in a marriage. It has to be unanimous consensus. It can take a long time, a lot of work, and a lot of sturm-und-drang to get there, but the only thing that will work is for a solution that both sides can wholeheartedly support. and implement.

Melon: I appreciate your point of view. It's not perfect for me, as it makes a difference which partner is the penetratee. But it's a good model. Would your hubby be willing to post, as well?

A suggestion -- no, a plea! -- to the asexuals married to sexuals: Please come out of the closet as soon as possible. Neither you nor your partner can work on a solution to a problem that, supposedly, doesn't exist. My husband has never told me about his feelings. I've kept mine bottled up for 13 years. He's unhappy when I ask (not push) at, oh, 3-of-4-year intervals. I fell into major depression from denying myself to myself. It is only today, when I put the issue on the table at our marriage counseling session, that this finally come up.

I look back at the many times my husband would say "Doesn't the fact that I [insert kind, loving, thoughtful and marvelous task/gift for my benefit] count?" When the topic is sex, the answer is "No. I love when you do that, and I am so very appreciative, but it's not sex." Now that the topic is how do we re-work our relationship to a loving one without sex (at least on his part), the answer is "Absolutely. That's just one of the many reasons I cannot envision a life without you."

I wish we had figured this out 10 years ago!

[Astryda]

I realized earlier today that I have really slacked off on some of the little things I used to do ... ie, have a romantic dinner ready when she comes in; surprise her with a fresh bouquet of roses; hide a little piece of jewelery under her pillow, spontaneously provide a good long foot massage, etc. I wonder if that has something to do with the fact that I know there isn't going to be a pay-off ... ie, a romp in the hay. I have gotta work on that.

I will say as an asexual who had a very long partnership with a sexual before he or I knew what was really going on with me, the thought that someone was giving me roses/jewelry/massages would not have made me more interested in sex. It might have made me feel guilty about turning down sex, but not more interested, or made it more comfortable. A foot massage in exchange for doing something you don't want to do just doesn't sound like a good deal, no matter whether the foot massage is offered lovingly or whatever.

With some asexuals, that might make a difference. With others, no. And if your particular asexual feels that way, it probably wouldn't suit you either as a sexual.

Agreed here totally. Plus in the case of giving gifts like roses/jewelry would make me feel guilty or even more- i would feel like someone treates me as a prostitute who is supposed to provide sex for gifts and who has to agree on it doesn't matter if she wants to or doesn't want to do it. Also I would think someone wants to push me to have sex with him.

Cheers :)

[Sally]

I agree with above posters. What's being proposed is that the asexual should become a prostitute: i.e., give sex when she doesn't want sex, in exchange for "stuff".

[sexless sexual]

As a sexual, I wouldn't give someone sex because he (I'm hetero) gave me gifts. I wouldn't love him because he gave me gifts, either.

But gift giving, like doing little things that pleases one's partner and like compliments and atta-boys liberally sprinkled around, do communicate that one is loved, one is in a safe place because the partner is considerate and concerned with one's well-being. All those little signs of love and caring do boost the ego. And all of that creates an environment where sex is (for a sexual) a safe and therefore desirable thing.

For a sexual, if all the above does not lead to an environment where sex is both possible and enjoyable, it is very like unrequited love. There is only so long you can hang on, hoping against hope that the love will be returned. Just as being on the receiving end of all the above is a wonderful thing that leads to affection (which leads to sex), it is also being on the receiving end of such things that makes it almost impossible not to do the same thing for one's partner.

These things become feed-back loops.

I think it was this that walrus was alluding to. The "pay-off" language may have appeared to be crude, but in a committed relationship, which walrus obviously has, it is not how one feels.

Sexuals are no more willing to give sex where they feel uncomfortable than asexuals are.

Mere lust can lead to sex, and often does. But for most of us, most of the time, it takes affection at the very least. Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

[Sally]

Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

And there's the problem in a nutshell. For asexuals who don't like sex and feel no desire to have it with another person, sex is only emotional in the negative sense: it's unnerving and disturbing. Thus, in an ideal sexual situation, the sexual is getting physical and emotional goodies. The asexual is getting nothing. But then sex between a sexual and an asexual probably ISN'T the ideal sexual situation for the sexual. So nobody's really happy because it's always a compromise.

[Jazmin]

Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

And there's the problem in a nutshell. For asexuals who don't like sex and feel no desire to have it with another person, sex is only emotional in the negative sense: it's unnerving and disturbing. Thus, in an ideal sexual situation, the sexual is getting physical and emotional goodies. The asexual is getting nothing. But then sex between a sexual and an asexual probably ISN'T the ideal sexual situation for the sexual. So nobody's really happy because it's always a compromise.

Yeah. I think the most asexuals can get out of sex is pleasure at the fact that they are making their partner happy. Speaking for myself anyway. I'm a slightly repulsed asexual, and a virgin. But if I were ever to have sex, the only reason I'd be doing it would be because I love the other person and want them to be happy. If sex makes them feel close to me, then ok, I maybe I could compromise once in a while. Maybe. But I wouldn't feel closer to them. In fact I'm kind of afraid that if I ever do try sex and I find it disturbing or more repulsive than I expected, then that may actually make me feel more distant from the person I love. Which would be...kinda sad.

So that's why I intend to try and avoid relationships altogether unless I find another asexual.

[happylife]

Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

Things would be less complicated for both asexuals and sexuals if sex was something that has no emotional elements involved to be carried out, I suppose. Because of this very fact, many sexual people in relationships with asexuals might feel like they are at a dead end when they realize that they love their partners so much. Lately I am beginning to think that sex may be a highly emotional process and the act of sex can actually be the act of loving for some sexuals. I still don't quite understand this though. A cruel but fascinating irony for me.

[Astryda]

Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

Things would be less complicated for both asexuals and sexuals if sex was something that has no emotional elements involved to be carried out, I suppose.

I think it depends on how the sexual/asexual person thinks about it. Some asexuals (I realized from one of my threads- many of them) don't think about sex and emotions as a couple, but some of them do. Same with sexual people, but here the situation looks a bit different- most sexuals do think about sex and emotions as a couple while only some of them think about it as about two not related things.

For me it starts to be complicated when asexual and sexual people involved in relationship have different opinions about it.

If a sexual thinks that sex and emotions are related to each other and an asexual thinks something different, sexual can feel that asexual doesn't love him/her, especially if asexual doesn't want to have sex and tells sexual to have sex with someone else.

If an asexual thinks that sex and emotions are related to each other and a sexual thinks something different, and will go to have sex with someone else just to settle his/her needs, the asexual can feel betrayed or so.

Cheers :)

[happylife]

If a sexual thinks that sex and emotions are related to each other and an asexual thinks something different, sexual can feel that asexual doesn't love him/her, especially if asexual doesn't want to have sex and tells sexual to have sex with someone else.

I remember being somewhat bewildered that my partner seemed a bit disappointed when I told him that it would be OK with me if he had sex with other women. I found out that he had expected that I would get angry at the idea of him sleeping with someone else.

[sexless sexual]

Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

Things would be less complicated for both asexuals and sexuals if sex was something that has no emotional elements involved to be carried out, I suppose. Because of this very fact, many sexual people in relationships with asexuals might feel like they are at a dead end when they realize that they love their partners so much. Lately I am beginning to think that sex may be a highly emotional process and the act of sex can actually be the act of loving for some sexuals. I still don't quite understand this though. A cruel but fascinating irony for me.

The act of sex can most definitely be the act of loving. It is referred to as "making love," after all. That's not just a euphemism.

[Olivier]

And there's the problem in a nutshell. For asexuals who don't like sex and feel no desire to have it with another person, sex is only emotional in the negative sense: it's unnerving and disturbing. Thus, in an ideal sexual situation, the sexual is getting physical and emotional goodies. The asexual is getting nothing. But then sex between a sexual and an asexual probably ISN'T the ideal sexual situation for the sexual. So nobody's really happy because it's always a compromise.

Sally, I agree heartily. Unless sexuals can get their heads around that what they are offering as a gift and a compliment can be felt as a burden, then it's hard to make any sort of progress.

And sex with an asexual is not likely to be an "ideal" sexual situation, but it doesn't necessarily follow that "nobody's really happy", just because perfection hasn't been attained - being unhappy unless presented with perfection is a recipe for misery, in sex or anything else.

[WARNING - POSSIBLE TMI]

Sometimes when we are having sex, my wife will break out in uncontrollable giggling, because she sees sex as something somewhat ridiculous. Now I think I'm safe in saying that for most sexuals, having their partner burst out laughing is not their "ideal" sexual situation . But knowing where it comes from, I actually love it - it's like our little in-joke that nobody else gets, I find my wife's laugh very attractive and infectious, I'm reminded that to her sex is absurd and she's really only doing this for me, and it makes us both happy. It's sweet, and intimate, and joyful. I'm not even sure how to compare that to some "ideal" sexual situation, as the notion of "better" or "more ideal" isn't so easily defined.

[END TMI]

And really, I'm not even sure I know, or care, what my "ideal" sexual situation would be. It would have to involve my wife, because I'm more strongly sexually attracted to her than any other woman I've ever met, but to change her nature for the sake of the "ideal" would defeat the purpose, because it's her as she is that I'm attracted to, not some other nearly-her. So for me "ideal" is the best that the two of us can come up with, and most of the time we do OK :)

[PS apologies if this turns up twice, but my first post here just disappeared]

[UltraViolet]

Sex is as emotional as it is physical for us.

Things would be less complicated for both asexuals and sexuals if sex was something that has no emotional elements involved to be carried out, I suppose. Because of this very fact, many sexual people in relationships with asexuals might feel like they are at a dead end when they realize that they love their partners so much. Lately I am beginning to think that sex may be a highly emotional process and the act of sex can actually be the act of loving for some sexuals. I still don't quite understand this though. A cruel but fascinating irony for me.

While they say it is emotional and is the "act of loving" I was/still am always amazed at how easily they can shut off those "loving emotions" when having meaningless, casual sex.

[Astryda]

While they say it is emotional and is the "act of loving" I was/still am always amazed at how easily they can shut off those "loving emotions" when having meaningless, casual sex.

Some sexual have sex just to settle their needs and other sexuals "make love" because their opinion is sex is linked to emotions, I guess.

I'n some polish talk- show I've seen people who were faithless to their husbands/wives and only after that they discovered how much they love their partners, but it's another story I guess.

Cheers :)

[sexless sexual]

While they say it is emotional and is the "act of loving" I was/still am always amazed at how easily they can shut off those "loving emotions" when having meaningless, casual sex.

Well, "making love" can mean different things with the same words. It is, after all, a euphemism; it means "have sex" in terms acceptable in polite society. For that matter, "have sex" is a euphemism for a shorter, more direct and ripe Saxon word. But, as I said, it's not just a euphemism. When sex is part of love, the expression "making love" is beautifully apt. As with most language, context is everything.

Also, do not confuse lust with love. All that is required for less-than-painful sex is arousal (i.e., lust.) For sexuals, it can be amazingly easy to reach arousal. Some people feel free to give in to the arousal more than others. That has a lot to do with upbringing and age; generational norms change over time.

[UltraViolet]

When sex is part of love, the expression "making love" is beautifully apt.

Yes, but when it is just sex (or, more aptly, that 4 letter Anglo Saxon word) then it should just be called what it is - calling it "making love" under shallow and/or base circumstances really degrades the meaning of real love.

Also, do not confuse lust with love.

I don't.

Some people feel free to give in to the arousal more than others. That has a lot to do with upbringing and age; generational norms change over time.

Obviously - this has been clearly seen in the past few decades. As much as I like the convieniences of this era I really wish that the display of sex would go back behind closed doors where it really belongs - the private sharing between willing partners. However, I do believe that the discussion of sex and the knowledge about other degrees of sexuality/non-sexuality should be publically known.

[Astryda]

As much as I like the convieniences of this era I really wish that the display of sex would go back behind closed doors where it really belongs - the private sharing between willing partners.

That would be nice to me too. Actually, i think any actions like french kissing, touching "secret" parts of partner's body etc shouldn't be displayed in public places.

Cheers :)

[luvtex55]

As a sexual woman, I can say that for me sex is more emotional than physical. Some sexuals can have casual sex with no emotional ties involved. I gotta say this perplexes me probably as much as it would an asexual haha Sometimes I wish I didn't relate sex with emotions so much. I think it would be easier to be married to my asexual husband that way.

[Paradise_Paradise]

Give the person wanting to be sexual a sensual backrub/footrub/headrub - or exchange backrubs, or footrubs (I suggest a talk before hand so both people know where this will end)

have a romantic night out - dinner, talking, walking, cuddling

just touch each other - maybe just sensually and not sexually, maybe sexually but with whatever limits the asexual person wants (no intercourse? no orgasm? touching only above the waist? etc Again, important to know before hand what is acceptable and what is not)

one person touch the other only, with whatever degree of sexual seems okay (see previous list)

listen to the other's heartbeat with both people laying naked together - this is wonderfully bonding

use sex toys to substitute for the asexual person's body/touch, but have the asexual person present physically and emotionally

the person who doesn't want sex hold the other person while he/she masturbates

phone sex, talking "dirty"

...Even if the asexual person isn't physically aroused, I think it could still be a loving interaction - if the asexual person feels loving toward the sexual person (and vice-versa of course) and is willing to show it just by being physically and emotionally present - not being aloof or withdrawn during the experience. From what I read on this list, that seems impossible for some asexuals.

mkt, as an asexual who simply has problems with myself as a sexual being, not with the sexuality of others, I can definitely agree and confirm that a lot of those suggestions would be acceptable to me, even emotionally enjoyable when I got used to them. :)

[Paradise_Paradise]

As a sexual woman, I can say that for me sex is more emotional than physical. Some sexuals can have casual sex with no emotional ties involved. I gotta say this perplexes me probably as much as it would an asexual haha Sometimes I wish I didn't relate sex with emotions so much. I think it would be easier to be married to my asexual husband that way.

Don't ever be sorry about it! :) As a sex-positive asexual, I think that's really nice - and what sex should be about. Two people - when they both enjoy sex - being loving and intimate, not just mindlessly getting their rocks off.

You know, in some ways, people like you are asexual. ;) If you're absolutely baffled by the idea of having sex with someone you didn't love, then you're saying that even though you do enjoy the physical sensations too, it's not really the sex itself that you go for.

[AVENCakes]

All that is required for less-than-painful sex is arousal (i.e., lust.) For sexuals, it can be amazingly easy to reach arousal. Some people feel free to give in to the arousal more than others. That has a lot to do with upbringing and age; generational norms change over time.

My partner and I can get aroused and can still manage to hurt each other- and not just because my knee seems to see his groin as covered with a big, noticable target. Actual penetration would probably be the most painful thing I'd ever have the misfortune of experiencing- and that's what most people seem to think sex involved. So, no, "all" that is required is not arousal, there are a lot of other factors that go into it.

[Haunter]

"I have my needs, I need my sex,

And not just once a year.

Do you suppose," the Walrus asked,

"I could convince my dear?"

"I really doubt it," Haunter said,

And shed a bitter tear.

:P

[starcat]

That's a very touching little poem Haunter. Thank you for sharing. Lots of emotions behind those words.

[Olivier]

Yay, starcat

I'm so glad you've found a solution that makes you happy!

[Sally]

No, you don't have the "average" marriage, Starcat, because it's really a GREAT marriage!

[Olivier]

It's been a long haul since we both came out to each other a couple years ago. I think I could almost write a book on all the stages we've gone through! lol

Were they anything like the Kuber Ross stages: Denial > Anger > Bargaining > Depression > Acceptance. While not a hardcore Kubler-Ross devotee, I'm often amazed at how well they describe how people deal with troubling circumstances beyond their control.

And I agree with Sally, who the hell wants an average marriage? I'd die of boredom, I suspect :P

[Haunter]

LOL... i was hoping someone would recognize the Lewis Carrol allusion... Which was supposed to be a contextual subtlety... considering he is thought to have been asexual himself...

[sonofzeal]

LOL... i was hoping someone would recognize the Lewis Carrol allusion... Which was supposed to be a contextual subtlety... considering he is thought to have been asexual himself...

Don't worry, I got it.

"If seven maids with seven mops

Swept it for half a year.

Do you suppose," the Walrus said,

"That they could get it clear?"

"I doubt it," said the Carpenter,

And shed a bitter tear.