Finally, & Question

[Rabger]

I'm a little slow sometimes but I was finally able to pinpoint exactly why I can't stand the demi/grey asexual labels. It's because my more thorough definition of asexuality (those 'old time' people here probably remember that whole convo, right? I think the current AVEN def is easy to understand and explain but is way too general and not entirely accurate) was encompassing enough for these new terms (way before they were even created) to comfortably fit within it without the need for new labels. Course due to a lack of time I never put much further effort on the topic to finish exploring my work, and then it was absolutely butchered by whomever put it on the AVEN glossary (for everyone that uses the term "secondary" sexual attraction, or similar, that's wrong! It was originally "contingent" sexual attraction because it was contingent on romantic attraction!). But, at least I finally know why these terms rubbed me the wrong way.

Off my little rant though, for those that DO identify as grey/demi, I have a question for you. My understanding of the terms is that within a situation where there is romantic attraction, sometimes these grey/demi asexuals experience some type of comfort or interest of a sexual nature. Do I have that right? So, if that is the case, what exactly is this interest? It is sexual attraction? If so I'd assume it was contingent and not primary, right? Is it sexual desire? Totally different from sexual attraction, neither of which necessarily needs the other. Is it both? Neither? Can someone explain their perspective for me? That would greatly help out my understanding here. Nothing I've yet read has clarified one's position on this.

[Snusmumriken]

In my case, when I find a connection, I may have sexual attraction because I have the need to transmit, in some way, all the feelings I have to the other person. When I have sex, my body is the one who speaks.

If there is no connection, then there is nothing to say and I am not interested in sex.

Random sex is not something disgusting for me, but it's like random talking. I can say random things, but they are totally useless. I can try, but it gives me nothing back.

[Rabger]

Snusmumriken, I understand that, but I'm trying to pinpoint exactly what someone feels when this happens. Your desire to express your feelings to another person in a sexual manner doesn't necessity imply sexual attraction. Sexual attraction is generally more in line with becoming sexually interested in someone from more physical stimuli such as visual or smell, for example (in a demi/grey case, it would only develop after romantic attraction has been attained, I'm not questioning that). Sexual desire may have many reasons such as arousal or power or mode of expression, I think, which doesn't always mean there is sexual attraction there, though there could be. From the little I know of grey/demi identified people I'd think that sexual desire is what develops, but I'm trying to understand if is in fact the case and if sexual attraction plays any part, and if so, in what way.

[Guest]

I think power of mode of expression is exactly how sexual attraction feels for some people. Rabger, I think you think there are all these different and unique feelings, but its kind of like you're asking people to describe how it feels to be hot because of a fever, a rise in ambient temperature, a lowering of personal temperature awareness, etc. The thing is, humans aren't meant to be so sensitive that all of these things feel different.

[Rabger]

If people can't look within themselves enough to try and figure out what they're feeling, why bother feeling anything at all. There is nothing wrong with exploring the possibilities. These things do often feel different. I've had many many conversations with people that point to that, sexual and asexual alike. I'm perfectly capable of describing what a fever feels like. Aren't most people? They may describe them differently but if you're listening, you can understand the underlying similarities.

[Guest]

If people can't look within themselves enough to try and figure out what they're feeling, why bother feeling anything at all.

This couldn't make less sense.

[Vampyremage]

Speaking as someone who has made a transition from asexual to grey demisexual in recent months, I explain and experience that change in terms of desire for partnered sex rather than sexual attraction. The term sexual attraction means very little to me in a personal context. I don't know what it feels like and am pretty sure I've never experienced it to this day. Still, there is little doubt in my mind that I am demisexual now and that such is a fairly recent thing, probably in the last 6 months or so. The difference is very markedly one of desire rather than attraction.

The sexual desire I feel is directed exclusively at my husband. I believe it to be relatively low compared to what's 'average' and it is relatively infrequent. However, an infrequent desire for partnered sex is very noticeable when one has gone from none at all to something. When I look at my partner, he doesn't appear any different now than he ever has in the past, whether or not I feel that very specific sort of desire. He's always been aesthetically appealing to me in certain ways but that never translated into anything sexual. When I do experience that desire, its not really directed to appearance or even to more esoteric physical traits like smell, ect but rather seems to be a mainly mental thing that translates into the physical. Whether or not this is typical of other demisexuals I cannot say, but this has been my personal experience.

[Guest]

I posted this in the SPFA but will repost here. Vamp, I'm wondering to what extent this does or doesn't fit with your experience. For me as well, the relevant issue is desire, not sexual attraction:

I've never "wanted" someone in that way unless I have strong romantic feelings. Most sexual impulses in this world, i'd be willing to bet, are instigated by romantic feelings. Without those feelings, I may want sexual stimulation, but I don't care much by whom. Since I'm gay I like sex with women better, but sexual attraction on its own doesn't make me feel connected to people, its more just a guideline for my sexuality than anything so specific as "my sexual attraction made me kiss him". It's not like that. People have brains and make their own decisions. Hunger is kind of a general feeling. For example, It takes actual conscious thought to turn a generic feeling of hunger into a desire to get up and make lasagna.

If you were to make a feast, and someone asked you why, "because I felt hungry" wouldn't be a sufficient answer. The question asker is still going to want to know how you decided on the foods you chose, if you had to go to the store, why you made so much for only one person...

It's the same for sexual attraction. You may have a basic underlying attraction, but its general and its too weak on its own to independently validate action. All action has an intervening factor of many conscious decisions.

[Vampyremage]

I posted this in the SPFA but will repost here. Vamp, I'm wondering to what extent this does or doesn't fit with your experience. For me as well, the relevant issue is desire, not sexual attraction:

I've never "wanted" someone in that way unless I have strong romantic feelings. Most sexual impulses in this world, i'd be willing to bet, are instigated by romantic feelings. Without those feelings, I may want sexual stimulation, but I don't care much by whom. Since I'm gay I like sex with women better, but sexual attraction on its own doesn't make me feel connected to people, its more just a guideline for my sexuality than anything so specific as "my sexual attraction made me kiss him". It's not like that. People have brains and make their own decisions. Hunger is kind of a general feeling. For example, It takes actual conscious thought to turn a generic feeling of hunger into a desire to get up and make lasagna.

If you were to make a feast, and someone asked you why, "because I felt hungry" wouldn't be a sufficient answer. The question asker is still going to want to know how you decided on the foods you chose, if you had to go to the store, why you made so much for only one person...

It's the same for sexual attraction. You may have a basic underlying attraction, but its general and its too weak on its own to independently validate action. All action has an intervening factor of many conscious decisions.

Speaking as an ace turned demi, I've always felt orientation to be based more intuitively upon desire rather than attraction. Largely this has to do with the fact that the term sexual attraction is very ambiguous and confusion but it also has a lot to do with the way sexuals describe their own experiences. When speaking of sexual orientation, while the terminology of attraction might be used, the largely unstated assumption is that its desire that stipulates what one's orientation is. To put it another way, what is the meaning of sexual attraction if there is no sexual desire?

Having now made a transition to demi, having orientation hinge on desire makes even more sense to me than it did while I still identified as asexual because it turned something that seemed intuitively accurate into something that I have experienced first hand. That is to say, the idea of sexual attraction means very little to me on a personal level. The way in which I view my husband hasn't changed from before I became demi to after I became demi. I have always appreciated looking at aesthetically attractive people on a general level and I continue to do so, but that appreciation isn't innately sexual in nature.

For me, it is that feeling of 'I sometimes want sex' that is the most important aspect of orientation and, specifically, 'I sometimes want sex with X' that seems to define it. In my case, X is specifically my husband but, once again, I am demi. I have never experienced any sort of sexual desire directed at anyone else though I suppose that could one day change. I would tend to agree that probably most people's sexual desire is in some degree connected to romantic feelings developing, although I would also suggest that it probably varies fairly substantially from person to person. After all, there are those who can't get enough of casual sex, those who like casual sex occasionally and those who can't really imagine ever engaging in casual sex. As with most things pertaining to human sexuality, these things can vary greatly from person to person.

[Kanenas]

My understanding of the terms is that within a situation where there is romantic attraction, sometimes these grey/demi asexuals experience some type of comfort or interest of a sexual nature. Do I have that right? So, if that is the case, what exactly is this interest? It is sexual attraction? If so I'd assume it was contingent and not primary, right? Is it sexual desire? Totally different from sexual attraction, neither of which necessarily needs the other. Is it both? Neither?

I personally am using the term 'gray' because I know that if I was to describe my sexuality on a spectrum, it would fall heavily on the ace side - I know many people say sexuality is fluid. Mine has never been. A friend of mine is a defender of this phrase and I just joked "mine never did flow in the first place!". I have always liked women in one way, never was interested in men in any way, but yet was not happy when the women I liked were willing. I am still coming to terms with this and I want to find out for myself whether the term asexual fully fits me and whether I would like to use it. It just was

never much of a big deal to me, but now that I am a few years older and have to be around other people more than I would like to be because of work, I have started thinking about the differences between the other's and my own behavior and feelings heavily.

I have never felt sexual attraction in my life (I am 21), but have felt romantic attraction. I guess that if I really got into this deeper, I could call myself demiromantic even, simply because my 1. attraction does happen, but is rather rare and 2. the active interest in pursuing anything is even less prominent. For now, I want to come to terms with one thing after another, though. Last year, I met a girl who I found physically attractive. I quickly learned that's another thing as well, as even though she was very pleasant to look at, I found the thought of having sexual relations with her disgusting. Really disgusting, not just uninteresting. This thought was sparked because she was being very blunt about her sexuality and came on to me.

My sexual desire is almost nonexistent, but if it creeps up on me, I ignore it 9 out of 10 times. It's only the desire for the feeling it creates and for actually getting rid of the arousal. Never have I craved somebody else's touch during those times. If my libido were to go through the roof, I would do the same thing; ignore it or "take care" of it myself. I have never wanted to have sex with somebody else. And all these happenings and feelings are the reason why I, at this point, find gray to be an absolutely legitimate term for me. For now, at least.

[Rabger]

Vamp, I know asexuals that experience sexual attraction and no sexual desire (one of the various reasons I think the AVEN def is oversimplified). While most people, being sexuals, have these two things quite linked, they are in fact different. Its like most sexuals automatically link sexual attraction with romantic attraction, but its obvious these are two different things, especially when they can have sexual without romantic. And just because someone may find someone sexually attractive doesn't always mean they desire that person sexually.

In terms of orientation, there are at least two different types of orientation, sexual and romantic. While most people might say these are the same because they align for many, they obviously don't always. And not just looking at asexuals as the example. I have one friend that is bisexual homoromantic and another that is heterosexual biromantic. My own orientation does not hinge on desire at all when you consider sexual orientation, because I am asexual. But I am also homoromantic because I have only ever been romantically attracted to other women.

I also believe that sexual desire and sex drive/arousal are different. You don't necessarily have to be aroused to desire someone sexually, and you don't have to desire someone sexually to be aroused.

This is all one of the reasons I've found studying people to interesting. We are complex organisms and reality is a million shades of grey. Unfortunately, society likes to view things in black and white boxes, and sometimes just one or the other, but exploring the grey and questioning how things are socially expressed, individually felt, and why, is fascinating.