Anyone familiar with Closed-Loop Relationships?

[starcat]

Ok, to start, I wasn’t sure where to post this since we’re not a young couple just starting out. So it was suggested that it might be more helpful to post here in the Older Asexual forum. (thanks Lady Girl) :)

Quick rundown…my husband and I are still working at finding a compromise in our marriage (he’s gay, I’m asexual) We’ve tried many things up to this point, but so far none have worked at helping us to both be happy.

With our most recent discussion, we realized if anything, that hubby needed some emotional support. (I’ve tried to help, but I’m really uncomfortable discussing anything sexual) So we decided to turn to the internet and try to find an online Gay Husband/Mixed Marriage support group. (btw there’s not much out there) But what my husband did come across was a group called CLR (closed-loop relationships) This got us talking further as we’ve never discussed a monogamous relationship along side the marriage before.

In my opinion, if another couple is in a similar situation as we are, then the boys forming a friendship might be a solution. As long as everyone is aware and agrees it's ok. But I want to learn more before moving forward.

Here is a short definition of what CLR is – quote:

“A closed-loop relationship consists of two geographically proximate married men who don't cheat on their wives with other women and who don't fool around with other guys. It's an actual friendship between the guys, not just a sexual liaison. And, the bond between the guys is separate from the married relationship they have with their wives. The goal is to provide marital stability and to bond with another guy.”

So I’m wondering if anyone is familiar with this type of arrangement, or have tried it? If so, did it work/not work in your marriage? What do you think may be some of the positive or negative sides to it?

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

[Kitty Spoon Train]

I'm certainly not familiar with this specifically, but as someone who identifies as a relationship anarchist and has done a lot of research into polyamory, I think I can make sense of some of the psychology behind this, and give my two cents....

For the most part, to me this sort of situation sounds like "polyfidelity". A situation where romantic love (however you define that) is shared with multiple people, but there is an agreement that it's limited to the group. It seems to me like CLRs are really just a specific incarnation of this. Not necessarily particularly unique, but more like a variation on the theme of polyfidelity. As such, for the most part I'd say the issues will be textbook polyamory really: if people want to give it a go (but are still in mainstream monogamous mindsets), it'll pay to learn how to handle jealousy, cultivate compersion, learn to expand love and trust in more than a simple 1-on-1 direction, etc.

One huge advantage polyfidelity has over a more open form of polyamory is that the physical/sexual logistics are simpler and less risky. Especially if it only involves a guy-on-guy relationship, there's zero risk of unplanned pregnancy with the "wrong" people. And because the circle is a closed loop and noone is having sex with outsiders, if you know everyone is clean and healthy you don't have to worry about STDs at all. So in that practical sense it's not really any different to the sexual health security you have with sexual monogamy really.

So I think all that really stands in the way here is the potential for the guy-on-guy relationship to develop in such a way that they want to become "primary partners" of sorts, and exclude their wives to a high degree, if not altogether eventually. Dealing with this wisely mostly comes down to everyone involved breaking down the assumptions of what relationships mean, and what kind of outward expression is appropriate for different "types" of relationships. For me, it's incredibly easy to look at this as a completely natural setup - because I've completely broken down ANY sense of "package-deal" assumptions regarding what relationships are "supposed to look like". But I know this isn't easy for many people. And maybe some are just wired to not be able to accept it. Who really knows.

Hmmm, well, hope some of that was useful. :D

[runester]

What it sounds like to me, is that the husband has a best/platonic friend - pretty average, I'd say. Just because a male is gay, doesn't mean he does not have friends that he is not sexually involved with. I think that's pretty much true. What it has to do with the effects on a marriage, I don't see.

[Notte stellata]

What it sounds like to me, is that the husband has a best/platonic friend - pretty average, I'd say. Just because a male is gay, doesn't mean he does not have friends that he is not sexually involved with. I think that's pretty much true. What it has to do with the effects on a marriage, I don't see.

I think it means the two guys are sexually involved, but more importantly, they also share an emotional bond (be it platonic or romantic), so it's "not just a sexual liaison", as the definition cited by the OP says.

Same as KST, when I saw the definition of CLR, my first thought was "well, it's just a specific configuration of polyamory". I guess it's a term mostly used in the "gay husband" community, but the basic principles are pretty much the same as the poly philosophy. There have been quite a few threads about open/poly relationships on AVEN that may be helpful to you (you can find them with keyword search). More Than Two also has good poly resources.

[runester]

What it sounds like to me, is that the husband has a best/platonic friend - pretty average, I'd say. Just because a male is gay, doesn't mean he does not have friends that he is not sexually involved with. I think that's pretty much true. What it has to do with the effects on a marriage, I don't see.

I think it means the two guys are sexually involved, but more importantly, they also share an emotional bond (be it platonic or romantic), so it's "not just a sexual liaison", as the definition cited by the OP says.

Same as KST, when I saw the definition of CLR, my first thought was "well, it's just a specific configuration of polyamory". I guess it's a term mostly used in the "gay husband" community, but the basic principles are pretty much the same as the poly philosophy. There have been quite a few threads about open/poly relationships on AVEN that may be helpful to you (you can find them with keyword search). More Than Two also has good poly resources.

Thank you for the link; I always appreciate a way to greater knowledge. Now however, my mind is playing with the semantics introduced by the 'open-marriage' sync. I find that 'actual friendship, not just sexual liason' = a love affair, as emotions are added to the mix. Also, emotional friendships = romance IMO. Actually, I'm discussing a topic I am not overly familiar with, as I am providing my thoughts moreso than facts. That's why, once again - thank you for the link! Whew!! :)

[FlaafyTaffy]

I don't mean to be rude but is there a reason why you are married in the first place?

[starcat]

I appreciate the links and input as well.

I never even considered this to be closely related to polyamory…which I’m not familiar with at all. What appeals to me about CLR is that both males are committed to their marriages, so there is no threat (so to speak) of divorce. Plus as you pointed out Kitty Spoon, because it’s a closed loop, there is no threat of outside health risks as well.

It’s not saying that sex would be a given either. I think it would depend on the type of friendship/bond that is formed. But I like how you brought up the other aspects of jealousies and expanding love and trust. I mean (as runester pointed out) we’re all entitled to have friends, but if it goes further than that, I can see those issues coming into play. I can also see compersion (thanks for the link) as another way of looking at it too.

Thanks also for the link to “morethantwo”. I definitely plan to check that out.

[starcat]

I don't mean to be rude but is there a reason why you are married in the first place?

It's ok, your not being rude :) I'd say it's a pretty logical question to ask. We've been married 12yrs. and just came to understand our own sexualities 5 yrs. ago. So this wasn't something we knew at the start. Life carries all kinds of twists and turns and we have a deep love for each other regardless of our sexual preferences.

[Guest]

If you two love each other, and are both fine having another male pal coming into play to give your husband the emotional support he needs, and perhaps sexual satisfaction (so long as he wants it, and so long as you're fine with him getting it from someone else), I'd say the scenario looks good for everyone. There's no shame in "opening up" a marriage if it's done with the consent of both members in a couple, and for a greater good. So, yes, I may be naive, but I really don't see the problem here - if you feel okay with it, by all means go for it.

[Tanwen]

If it works for you then it works and other people can keep their noses out of it. I know of a not exactly the same but near enough situations and it works for them in this case her boyfriend is in a stable relationship and gives her the emotional support she needs. There are no secrets, all their friends accept it and love them :) . Important thing is to keep talking to each other so everyone knows how the other is thinking.

[starcat]

I guess I just needed to see all angles of this. I'm still not sure how I feel about it, but I will say more comfortable than not. We both agree everyone needs to be on the same page.

But another problem we face, is hubby isn't out to anyone other than myself and family. We're worried about his job/co-workers, and even church friends. We seem to live in a very homophobic area :(

[Tanwen]

Lots of couples are friends, no one thinks anything of it. If you (all) choose not to go into details then no-one need be any the wiser.

[starcat]

Lots of couples are friends, no one thinks anything of it. If you (all) choose not to go into details then no-one need be any the wiser.

Thanks, very true, but then how does one go about meeting other's in a similar situation? As it is Asexuals are pretty spread out, but this? Seems it would be like trying to find a needle in a hay stack

[Guest]

Really, starcat? There are way less asexuals than homosexuals in the world. :lol:

If you don't want your husband to go out there and proclaim himself homosexual in front of everyone, and he doesn't want to either, he can just use the Internet to try and find someone from his area who shares his orientation, and see if the other person is also interested in working something out with him. If asexuals are capable of doing this in many places all over the world, then homosexuals definitely can, too. :)

[starcat]

Really, starcat? There are way less asexuals than homosexuals in the world. :lol:

If you don't want your husband to go out there and proclaim himself homosexual in front of everyone, and he doesn't want to either, he can just use the Internet to try and find someone from his area who shares his orientation, and see if the other person is also interested in working something out with him. If asexuals are capable of doing this in many places all over the world, then homosexuals definitely can, too. :)

Yes of course your right, I was referring more to others in a similar marriage situation as us :P I'm nervous about using the internet...but it may be our only resource.

Thanks everyone for your input, ideas and links. You've been a great help :)

[starcat]

Bit of an update. I've been doing so much reading lately, endless talks with hubby too...feeling pretty wore out. H joined a CLR group online, unfortunately there doesn't seem to be members close to our area yet. He has had replies through other avenues online, but everyone of them are going behind their partners backs. There sure seems to be a lot of bi/gay men in marriages w/women out there, but who are dishonest and sneaky about their activities...kinda sad and scary :(

But one of the things coming up for me emotionally again, is my feelings on monogamous marriages. A good example is H said the other night, that if I wanted to find an asexual man to connect with, he would be more than supportive and happy about it. My instant reply (and feeling) was that I could never do something like that because I'm married.

I feel like I'm in a no-win (for me) scenario and I sure don't want to feel that way. My quick reply to hubby probably didn't make him feel very good either.

Is a monogamous marriage an ingrained, or learned, attitude? Is it something a person can change? Why would I keep blocking myself on feeling ok with this?

sorry...just venting some 'stuck' feelings I guess

[Notte stellata]

Is a monogamous marriage an ingrained, or learned, attitude? Is it something a person can change? Why would I keep blocking myself on feeling ok with this?

That's an interesting question, but unfortunately hard to answer. It probably varies by individuals. Some people seem to be hardwired for monogamy - even if they totally accept polyamory in theory, they still can't love more than one person at a time; some people are conditioned to go with the monogamous norm but decide they want non-monogamy later; there are also some people who just never feel monogamy is natural for them.

In general it's certainly possible to unlearn a lot of social constructs. I, for one, used to believe I was firmly monogamous, but it didn't take me much to embrace the idea that loving multiple people at once with all their blessings is a beautiful thing. But for some people it takes a long time to adjust to the poly thinking/lifestyle, or they can never do it.

See, your gut feeling was "I could never do something like that because I'm married". But you're okay with your husband finding another guy, that's already one step away from the traditional monogamous thinking. If you're okay with him having another partner, it's only fair that he's also okay with you having another partner. You may choose not to act on it, but you have the freedom. Take you time exploring your feelings about polyamory if you want to. :)

[Guest]

Is a monogamous marriage an ingrained, or learned, attitude? Is it something a person can change? Why would I keep blocking myself on feeling ok with this?

That's an interesting question, but unfortunately hard to answer. It probably varies by individuals. Some people seem to be hardwired for monogamy - even if they totally accept polyamory in theory, they still can't love more than one person at a time; some people are conditioned to go with the monogamous norm but decide they want non-monogamy later; there are also some people who just never feel monogamy is natural for them

I am one of those that seems to be pretty hard wired to it. I agree with poly in theory, in practice I could never do it. I romantically attach to one person and cannot form an attachment to another. At least, I haven't been able to yet. And my initial reaction would be similar to yours in "I am married, why would I need someone else?" - I don't think your feelings on it for YOURSELF need to be any source of anxiety for you two, unless you feel that way about him having another partner. If you feel that you could not handle him having a male friend who he may or may not have sex with, that you should most certainly let him know. But, don't feel bad if you end up not needing another romantic / special platonic partner instead of just friendship and the marriage. Some of us just ARE monogamous and some of us just are poly - there is no wrong or right, just being ourselves. :) That option being open to you makes the agreement a healthy one, but you don't have to take advantage of it.

Good luck with finding something that fits. There are a lot of people who go behind their partners backs online, indeed. But, once you weed through the bad ones, you might meet a few nice ones. :)

[starcat]

Thank you both for your input. I guess it is a bit of a difficult question. But I do wonder if monogamy is a societal lesson or if it actually is hardwired into our systems. I lean more to it being something we are shown and taught. It feels more like a learned behavior. But then again, there are other species who "naturally" choose one partner for life and no other. So maybe it is a natural emotion to humans? Either that or I was a swan or wolf in a previous life

[starcat]

Wow...all this has taken me on an interesting journey into left and right brain functions. Seems I'm my own worse enemy lol

[Notte stellata]

Thank you both for your input. I guess it is a bit of a difficult question. But I do wonder if monogamy is a societal lesson or if it actually is hardwired into our systems. I lean more to it being something we are shown and taught. It feels more like a learned behavior. But then again, there are other species who "naturally" choose one partner for life and no other. So maybe it is a natural emotion to humans? Either that or I was a swan or wolf in a previous life

If your question is on the level of human species (at first I thought you were asking on an individual level), then the answer is monogamy is learned. It varies by species. Some animals are naturally monogamous, but most aren't, neither were/are the earliest humans and our closest primate relatives, bonobos and chimps. Sex at Dawn is an interesting read on this topic. :)

[Guest]

Most the monogamous species that we look to as role models for monogamy actually aren't. Swans for example often go off their territory to mate with neighboring swans, it keeps their gene pool fresh. Even though they share a home with their life mate, they have a little sex on the side. Wolves also will go mate elsewhere, because sometimes their blood lines are too close to each other and this drives them to seek mates that are from other packs. Foxes also mate share for reproduction. These are all socially monogamous animals, but sexually open. Biologically, pretty much any species will lean towards poly/open model for sex because it helps keeps fresh DNA coming in to the line. Humans are pretty similar biologically speaking.

Social monogamy I think comes naturally to some and not others. Even in cultures that supported multiple partners some did prefer a single strong pair bond with as with swans, sex with other partners though not as close an intimate relationship. I don't think sexual monogamy comes naturally.

But... there is a lot of reading you can do on the subject. :)

[Kitty Spoon Train]

I'm one of those bizarre people for whom sexual monogamy comes much easier than emotional.

Then again, I don't know how much of that has to do with my very definition of what's "romantic" being almost completely indistinguishable from super close affectionate friendship. But either way I'm a massive oddball in the dating world. :lol:

[starcat]

I’m feeling a bit like an oddball myself. What interesting reads. Thank you all for sharing. I never knew monogamy in the animal world was basically emotional. Oh and I tried to go to your link starrynight, and it didn't seem to work for me, but maybe I can try doing a search for it. I do love to read and learn.

H and I were discussing last night that we are both emotionally monogamous and that’s where the twist comes in for me. Even though I’m not sexual, I seem to be combining the two into what I believe to be a monogamous marriage. It appears that logically, I totally agree with CLR and support my husband in it. But emotionally I’m fighting it’s morality?

I totally agree that sexual monogamy is a learned behavior. Would that stem from Christianity? Maybe my question should be how does one go about un-learning it..lol

[Lady Girl]

Emotions are difficult to 'unlearn'. I struggle with all kinds of feelings I have regarding my husband being asexual and because of that he compromises on sexual activity (as opposed to really wanting it). I can reason out why it is okay for us to work with our differences this way, but on occasion I start to feel really bad about it, meltdown and just cry, and then yell at him and waste time and energy and cause even more hurt feelings. I'm beginning to think feeling bad about it is not something I can change in myself, but that perhaps I can change how I react to that feeling. I think I am going to have to start with my actions and maybe eventually my emotions will change and then I will feel more accepting instead of so sad and hurt during these times.

Right now my plan is to first save a little 'mad money' and at the first signs of this (tears) I'm going to go to Barnes and Noble, do some reading and get a coffee. I'm not sure it will work, but it's my plan. I want to short circuit this pattern of destructive behavior I seem to have. It's worth a try.

Starcat...based on your intro from awhile back I suspect you have similar feelings and behaviors regarding whatever arrangement you and your husband decide on together. That is why I shared all these personal thoughts regarding my feelings and the actions that go with them. I hope it is relevant.

[Guest]

I’m feeling a bit like an oddball myself. What interesting reads. Thank you all for sharing. I never knew monogamy in the animal world was basically emotional. Oh and I tried to go to your link starrynight, and it didn't seem to work for me, but maybe I can try doing a search for it. I do love to read and learn.

H and I were discussing last night that we are both emotionally monogamous and that’s where the twist comes in for me. Even though I’m not sexual, I seem to be combining the two into what I believe to be a monogamous marriage. It appears that logically, I totally agree with CLR and support my husband in it. But emotionally I’m fighting it’s morality?

I totally agree that sexual monogamy is a learned behavior. Would that stem from Christianity? Maybe my question should be how does one go about un-learning it..lol

I don't think it just stems from religion. Though, religion certainly adds to it - it's a "sin" to seek sex elsewhere in most religions. However, even pagans and atheists have the same behavior. So, not just a religious behavior. As for unlearning it... I am not sure. I think most people struggle with it when they switch from monogamous to a poly/open arrangement. I have never had to do that, so I am unable to give any practical advice. Though, I have heard many say they just consider sex a hobby they do not share.

[starcat]

Emotions are difficult to 'unlearn'. I struggle with all kinds of feelings I have regarding my husband being asexual and because of that he compromises on sexual activity (as opposed to really wanting it). I can reason out why it is okay for us to work with our differences this way, but on occasion I start to feel really bad about it, meltdown and just cry, and then yell at him and waste time and energy and cause even more hurt feelings. I'm beginning to think feeling bad about it is not something I can change in myself, but that perhaps I can change how I react to that feeling. I think I am going to have to start with my actions and maybe eventually my emotions will change and then I will feel more accepting instead of so sad and hurt during these times.

Right now my plan is to first save a little 'mad money' and at the first signs of this (tears) I'm going to go to Barnes and Noble, do some reading and get a coffee. I'm not sure it will work, but it's my plan. I want to short circuit this pattern of destructive behavior I seem to have. It's worth a try.

Starcat...based on your intro from awhile back I suspect you have similar feelings and behaviors regarding whatever arrangement you and your husband decide on together. That is why I shared all these personal thoughts regarding my feelings and the actions that go with them. I hope it is relevant.

I always appreciate your input Lady Girl, thank you for sharing. We went through very similar things in our marriage. Both of us were reacting with our emotions first, logic second. Hubby had a difficult time with accepting my asexuality and kept hoping my feelings on sex would change. For awhile it was really hard on my end too, because I wanted to be able to fulfill all that he needed and couldn’t, even though I kept trying. Roller coaster of emotions on all sides.

But we have come to understand (and accept) that one person can’t give someone all that they need…and sex just happens to be the one thing I can’t give, just as abstinence is something he is unable to give (for very long). So I think CLR is a very logical, and workable choice for us both. I just have to keep that “logic” part going.

Maybe for me, it’s not so much unlearning an emotion, but in this case…more of unlearning a concept?

I don't think it just stems from religion. Though, religion certainly adds to it - it's a "sin" to seek sex elsewhere in most religions. However, even pagans and atheists have the same behavior. So, not just a religious behavior. As for unlearning it... I am not sure. I think most people struggle with it when they switch from monogamous to a poly/open arrangement. I have never had to do that, so I am unable to give any practical advice. Though, I have heard many say they just consider sex a hobby they do not share.

Maybe not religious behavior, but a teaching we learn very early on through society? It‘s also shown in our court systems and a big criterion for divorce.

But what appeals to me about CLR (for us) is that love isn’t the connection with an outside party. It’s a friendship bond between the men, so there is no threat to the marriage. Everyone is on the same page and understands the perimeters before anything even starts.

[Guest]

Monogamy and polyamory are definitely not related to a person's sexual orientation or religious belief. I'm an atheist. I'm totally sex-positive, in that I believe everyone should be free to have or not to have as much sex as they like, with whomever they like, whenever they like. Sexual freedom encompasses asexuality, in that I personally choose to not have sex in that context, simply because I don't feel sexual attraction and I'm not interested in it. I want other things from a relationship, but not because I think sex is a "sin" or something. The same applies to monogamy: I believe there's no "right" ethics when applied to relationships other than being honest with one's partner(s) about your needs and desires. I happen to only want one partner and to not want this partner to have other partners. That's monogamy. For me, it's hard-wired. For some it isn't. Everything is okay.

Also, you don't have to force yourself into an arrangement you don't like. Slow things down if you feel uncomfortable with your husband suddenly seeing someone and/or having sex with them. You might be able to get accustomed better to this idea if he starts off as being friends with another man, possibly a man you also know and are friends with. I'm not sure whether befriending your husband's potential CLR partners would be okay with you, but I'm throwing the idea in the cauldron just in case it's of some use.

You have nothing to "unlearn". Just experiment and see if it feels right to you. You'll know when you get to experience it. :)

[Notte stellata]

I’m feeling a bit like an oddball myself. What interesting reads. Thank you all for sharing. I never knew monogamy in the animal world was basically emotional. Oh and I tried to go to your link starrynight, and it didn't seem to work for me, but maybe I can try doing a search for it. I do love to read and learn.

H and I were discussing last night that we are both emotionally monogamous and that’s where the twist comes in for me. Even though I’m not sexual, I seem to be combining the two into what I believe to be a monogamous marriage. It appears that logically, I totally agree with CLR and support my husband in it. But emotionally I’m fighting it’s morality?

I totally agree that sexual monogamy is a learned behavior. Would that stem from Christianity? Maybe my question should be how does one go about un-learning it..lol

I fixed the link. :) It's just a general site for the book with a few excerpts, but you can have a rough idea of what it is about.

I agree with others that monogamy didn't only stem from religion. It started to be a common practice when the ownership of private property arose in the agricultural society. For the longest time it wasn't about love; it was just a practical arrangement.

As for how to unlearn it...well, it was very easy for me, maybe because I'm very unconventional in the first place, so all I needed was enough exposure to polyamory (I read some poly people's stories on a forum as a start). I suppose you can ask yourself what issues you have with poly or non-monogamy. Is it morality, jealousy, fear of being "different", or something else? You've mentioned morality, but you don't have to be "normal" in order to be moral. As long as you're not hurting anyone, what you do is moral. That's what ethical non-monogamy means.

[Kitty Spoon Train]

As long as you're not hurting anyone, what you do is moral. That's what ethical non-monogamy means.

Ayyyyyy-men!!

Nothing winds me up more than when people conflate all non-monogamous romance and sex with "cheating" automatically.