I am so happy in my platonic relationship!

[Kitty Spoon Train]

Yeah, the whole 'is this romantic?' question is irrelevant in some cases. :D As long as everyone is happy, does it really matter whether the relationship is romantic or platonic? :P

One thing I've noticed - which I think I've mentioned a while ago in another thread - is that on some level I can think of pretty much ALL my close friendships with women as "romantic" to some small degree.

It sounds creepy, I know, but on some level it actually stops things from getting creepy....

Basically - if I frame it that way to my mind, I can just sort of see romantic feelings as an extension of universal love, the kind one can feel for all living beings. In a way, that can help friendships with females stay centred for me, rather than go all weird and awkward if actual "romantic" feelings suddenly arise. Cultivating a poly-friendly mindset also helps here, because it stops my brain from going into that highly focused mode of developing obsessive limerence and believing that this person just has to be cornered into being The One Special Someone. Which is usually how things get all awkward and weird and overly possessive.

With this sort of thinking, it becomes something very close to a choice, almost. I think I'm almost there. A bit more practice and I think I'll just about be able to completely control what sort of actualisation is desired for relationships with given women. This doesn't make them any less special, just less irrational. That's the theory anyway. :lol:

[Oswald]

That actually does help. :D Thanks, and you're welcome!

[Philiarocks]

Starry Night, Kitty Spoon Train, I think I conceptualise things somewhat differently-- which is absolutely fine, as we all need to do what works for us! I see love, in the broadest, most universal sense, not as a feeling so much as a decision to invest in the wellbeing of another or others. However, it can be expressed in a very wide variety of ways. Friendship and romantic or erotic love, for me, are two seperate ways of loving.

How are they different? Well, again, it will depend on the person. For me, there was a period of limerence in my relationship with K-- early in our relationship, we couldn't get enough of each other, to the point of being almost obsessed, I think. I'm sure it drove our friends mad. And we felt fairly early on that we were somehow meant to be together. Note the word 'feel.' It was not rational. So, Oswald, I can see what you mean when you say that all sense of common sense suddenly goes out the window. However, we didn't lose our heads completely. We decided to wait and let that floating headrush of limerence pass before we decided to commit to a long-term relationship. For us, our romantic love was a decision to build a life together. Oddly, it was not until we had reached that point, where our rational selves were in control, that I felt any inclination to express our love through sex. This, um, may have been a source of some frustration for her.

I've only felt this for K, and we had been together for about three years. I don't see myself falling for another the same way. Now, we still make love, of course, but K and I have moved to a point which might well be described as romantic friendship. I honestly think friendship is the firmest foundation for any long-term relationship.

With J, there was no real period of limerence-- I love her deeply, but I have never felt like I wasn't in control of my feelings. I guess I just recognised the good in her, and so many admirable qualities. I knew, somehow, that we were going to be close friends, right from the start. I miss her when we're not together, but it's not a devastating feeling of loss. That said, whenever I'm in J's presence, it feels like... I don't know, coming home? She's one of the people who makes me feel safe in this world. I'm there for her whenever she needs me, as she is for me. Each considers the other a priority in our lives, but never the only priority. Does that make sense?

K is my soulmate, while J is a kindred spirit. I love each of them, and each form of love complements the other wonderfully.

[Kitty Spoon Train]

Starry Night, Kitty Spoon Train, I think I conceptualise things somewhat differently-- which is absolutely fine, as we all need to do what works for us! I see love, in the broadest, most universal sense, not as a feeling so much as a decision to invest in the wellbeing of another or others. However, it can be expressed in a very wide variety of ways. Friendship and romantic or erotic love, for me, are two seperate ways of loving.

How are they different? Well, again, it will depend on the person. For me, there was a period of limerance in my relationship with K-- early in our relationship, we couldn't get enough of each other, to the point of being almost obsessed, I think. I'm sure it drove our friends mad. And we felt fairly early on that we were somehow meant to be together. Note the word 'feel.' It was not rational. So, Oswald, I can see what you mean when you say that all sense of common sense suddenly goes out the window. However, we didn't lose our heads completely. We decided to wait and let that floating headrush of limerance pass before we decided to commit to a long-term relationship. For us, our romantic love was a decision to build a life together. Oddly, it was not until we had reached that point, where our rational selves were in control, that I felt any inclination to express our love through sex. This, um, may have been a source of some frustration for her.

I've only felt this for K, and we had been together for about three years. I don't see myself falling for another the same way. Now, we still make love, of course, but K and I have moved to a point which might well be described as romantic friendship. I honestly think friendship is the firmest foundation for any long-term relationship.

With J, there was no real period of limerance-- I love her deeply, but I have never felt like I wasn't in control of my feelings. I guess I just recognised the good in her, and so many admirable qualities. I knew, somehow, that we were going to be close friends, right from the start. I miss her when we're not together, but it's not a devastating feeling of loss. That said, whenever I'm in J's presence, it feels like... I don't know, coming home? She's one of the people who makes me feel safe in this world. I'm there for her whenever she needs me, as she is for me. Each considers the other a priority in our lives, but never the only priority. Does that make sense?

K is my soulmate, while J is a kindred spirit. I love each of them, and each form of love complements the other wonderfully.

That makes sense to me. Actually, I can't really tell, but I'm pretty sure it might be just another way of conceptualising the way I'm thinking of it. Maybe just via different semantics.

For me, at the core of love is the idea that it's universal. So yes, when it comes to actualising a relationship, I do believe that 1) It's best if it's based on a genuine underlying friendship, and 2) It mostly comes down to investing a certain kind of effort into it, rather than relying on the idea that a certain type of feeling will last forever, and carry it on its wings.

This is the main problem I have with the way popular culture presents romantic love. It seems to be based on the idea of "falling in love" with someone and remaining on that high forever. And the disclaimer that this is essentially impossible is generally nowhere to be found. It's in the footnotes for sure, but not in the meat of the drama as it's popularly presented. Happily Ever After always looks like Limerence Ever After, rather than something more realistic and sedate.

What I mean to say is: maybe what I call "romantic friendship" is basically what you would call platonic - like what you have with J. The language is imprecise and we could simply be using it in different ways. :lol:

[Arctangent]

Yeah, the whole 'is this romantic?' question is irrelevant in some cases. :D As long as everyone is happy, does it really matter whether the relationship is romantic or platonic? :P

One thing I've noticed - which I think I've mentioned a while ago in another thread - is that on some level I can think of pretty much ALL my close friendships with women as "romantic" to some small degree.

It's funny you should say that, because I had the same thought recently myself (minus the gender specificity).

I've mentioned before that I see romance as an extension of friendship - my romantic(ish) feelings always seem to occur alongisde an existing platonic connection. So the two are already kind of "mixed up" in my head. I wonder, though, if it also works the other way around, so that romantic aspects "bleed into" friendship for me. I wonder this because I sometimes experience a warm, fuzzy feeling when I see a friend in a fulfilling relationship of their own. It's almost akin to compersion. The mindset I get from seeing a friend happy with someone else is very similar to the kind of feelings I would usually consider romantic (which is weird, I know). It's subtle, but significant.

If that's the case, then the distinction between romantic and platonic relationships becomes even more unclear for me (which I didn't even think was possible at this point). I seem to be living in a crazy world (personally speaking) where there are no purely platonic or romantic relationships, but just friendships which are more or less romantic. I can see why it's called "relationship anarchy" now. :P

Anyway, sorry for going off on my own tangent there. I would like to say, though, that I find the story in this thread truly heartwarming. It's great to know that these kinds of relationships can actually work for some people. In the end, it doesn't really matter how they're defined as long as everyone is happy with it. :)

[Philiarocks]

Kitty Spoon Train, it may well simply be a matter of semantics. At the end of the day, our views on relationships actually seem quite similar. I hate that the dominant narrative of love basically does consist of 'limerance ever after.' Because those feelings do fade, sooner or later. Does that mean you're not still in love? Heck, no! It just means that the nature and expression of that love changes. Still, I guess it's important for me that J and I don't consider our relationship romantic. For whatever reason, it's important to my identity. Weird, huh? Perhaps it's the influence of being raised as a Christian. Admittedly, there are many elements of our relationship which might an outside observer might consider romantic, but they're not to us, or to K, and that's the important thing.

Law of Circles, no need to apologise! I found your comment intriguing. I too feel a warm glow of happiness whenever I see J, and when I hear of her other friendships. There is no limit to love.

J, for the record, it makes me happy that you have a lot of people in the world you care about, and who care for you. Not being limerent doesn't mean I don't get a soaring sensation inside me whenever I see you smile.

[Notte stellata]

What I mean to say is: maybe what I call "romantic friendship" is basically what you would call platonic - like what you have with J. The language is imprecise and we could simply be using it in different ways. :lol:

Yeah, that's basically how I feel too. :) We all interpret what's "romantic" in different ways, which is fine.

For me, I can distinguish romantic and platonic feelings very well, but things are much more blurry when it comes to behaviors. Behaviorally, the only difference is I desire physical intimacy with people I'm romantically attracted to. None of the other elements that typically characterize romantic relationships is important to me: sex, exclusivity, living together, building a life together, etc (although I'm married, which comes across as pretty "normal" to outsiders who don't know I'm poly and a relationship anarchist :P). So romantic friendships make a lot of sense to me. I can have romantic feelings but act like touchy-feely friends with someone equally unconventional.

Actually, this thread got me thinking about the difference between romantic and platonic long ago. The more I read your story, the more it strikes me how similar it is to what I consider a romantic friendship. So I guess it really comes down to what the individuals in the relationship decide to call it. :)

[Kitty Spoon Train]

Actually, this thread got me thinking about the difference between romantic and platonic long ago. The more I read your story, the more it strikes me how similar it is to what I consider a romantic friendship. So I guess it really comes down to what the individuals in the relationship decide to call it. :)

Yeah, in fact, reading the description again - as well as how some aromantics on AVEN have described their cuddle buddy relationships - I really can't see much difference between this and my idea of romantic friendship. Maybe the structure of the feelings is different internally, but I really can't say, because externally it all seems to come down to semantics (of how people describe what they feel and label it as platonic vs romantic). I guess a lot of it is just the imprecision of language, ie things get blurry with edge-cases.

As for me - I used to think that I had a clear idea of the difference between romantic and platonic feelings. But now I'm not so sure. Now I lean more towards what Law of Circles says. It's semantics again essentially - but I guess on some level there's no such thing as 100% purely platonic feelings for women with me. It might be 99.999% in many cases, but there's still that sense that given the right circumstances, something that I might call a mild "romantic friendship" might be a possibility.

Again, as I said, this sounds creepy - but it's actually a great defence against getting creepy. I simply can't be cornered into the situation any more where I assume that feelings for a woman are totally platonic and will always remain so, but then get too close and get in trouble with it. :P

[Arctangent]

I suspect part of the problem is that the relationships we're talking about aren't institutionalized. There aren't really any clear, socially-defined rules surrounding relationships that fall into this sort of grey area, and as a result there's no single widely accepted set of terms to describe them. And since the experiences we're talking about are bound up in very subjective emotional states, it's difficult to say whether we're talking about qualitatively different things or talking about the same phenomenon with different words.

[Philiarocks]

Actually, this thread got me thinking about the difference between romantic and platonic long ago. The more I read your story, the more it strikes me how similar it is to what I consider a romantic friendship. So I guess it really comes down to what the individuals in the relationship decide to call it. :)

Yeah, in fact, reading the description again - as well as how some aromantics on AVEN have described their cuddle buddy relationships - I really can't see much difference between this and my idea of romantic friendship. Maybe the structure of the feelings is different internally, but I really can't say, because externally it all seems to come down to semantics (of how people describe what they feel and label it as platonic vs romantic). I guess a lot of it is just the imprecision of language, ie things get blurry with edge-cases.

Heh, well, to each their own, eh?

I guess another difference, for us, is that there is no sense of sexual or physical attraction. We do find one another aesthetically pleasing, sure. But we appreciate one another's physical appearance in an abstract, almost academic way. At least, that is the case for me. I know this works differently for a lot of people, but for me as a sexual person, I associate the idea of romance (as I have with K) with sex and physical attraction. I'll admit, from time to time I have worried that my feelings for J are latently sexual... But no. I'm just being a worrywart. My mind just doesn't go in that direction naturally, and something just shuts down if I dwell on it at all. Even the idea of kissing J on the mouth feels wrong. Since that degree of physical attraction isn't really there for either of us, it doesn't feel romantic to me.

Law of Circles, I think you hit the nail on the head by pointing out that these types of relationships aren't really institutionalised... Ordinarily, we learn our ideas about relationships from our parents. When you have no guide for it, you have to figure these things out on your own. And whatever people want to call it, we are really happy where we are, naming our relationship as we do. I'm so excited-- J is coming to stay this weekend to help me take care of the kids!

[Kitty Spoon Train]

I associate the idea of romance (as I have with K) with sex and physical attraction.

Ahhh ok, that makes sense then. :)

For me, "romantic" means "affectionate", essentially.

[Philiarocks]

NOW I get where you're coming from! (Gah, communicating these things in written form is not the easiest thing in the world!)

Well, there's plenty of affection, haha. :)

[Notte stellata]

I associate the idea of romance (as I have with K) with sex and physical attraction.

Ahhh ok, that makes sense then. :)

For me, "romantic" means "affectionate", essentially.

Hah, me too. This probably explains a lot why aces tend to blur the line between platonic and romantic feelings (or between friendship and romance), since there's no sexual attraction even in romance. :P

And yeah, communicating these things with words is very challenging. :D

[Philiarocks]

Yeah, one of the shortfalls of online communication is that you don't get things like vocal inflection, body language, etc. That's all right-- as long as we're willing to explain ourselves as clearly as possible, as we've done here! Something for me to keep in mind as an ally-- thank you all. :)

[artemisofephesus]

I suspect part of the problem is that the relationships we're talking about aren't institutionalized. There aren't really any clear, socially-defined rules surrounding relationships that fall into this sort of grey area, and as a result there's no single widely accepted set of terms to describe them. And since the experiences we're talking about are bound up in very subjective emotional states, it's difficult to say whether we're talking about qualitatively different things or talking about the same phenomenon with different words.

Yup, that's what I said on the previous page as well. Relationships are meant to work in this completely limiting pattern of heteronormativity and compulsory sexuality, of crushes-dating-romance-sex. There's not much room to even speculate about anything else, let alone find words and frameworks that look beyond that. So we have to make those ourselves, and make new words and new ways of thinking about things that encompass more options for what close, valuable relationships can look like. And that's such a process in itself. Outside the framework of sexual people, everything can take on a completely new meaning.

I associate the idea of romance (as I have with K) with sex and physical attraction.

Because that's the dominant framework for looking at romance - the progression of romance to sexual attraction (or sexual attraction to romance). And that idea goes back to one of the fundamental ideas behind the theory of asexuality, if you will - that for asexual people and some sexual people as well, romance and sexual or physical attraction or behaviour aren't inherently the same, or even linked to each other. Of course they are for some people, like you, and probably actually a very large percentage of people. But universal conflation of the two, as we see in media and TV and psychological discourse etc, is what leads to so many asexual people feeling so lost before they find out about asexuality. (That totally wasn't meant to be a lecture or anything. Just pointing out how it all links together!)

[Kitty Spoon Train]

Relationships are meant to work in this completely limiting pattern of heteronormativity and compulsory sexuality, of crushes-dating-romance-sex. There's not much room to even speculate about anything else, let alone find words and frameworks that look beyond that. So we have to make those ourselves, and make new words and new ways of thinking about things that encompass more options for what close, valuable relationships can look like. And that's such a process in itself. Outside the framework of sexual people, everything can take on a completely new meaning.

This. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so much this!!

The trouble for me has always been that there's a somewhat subtle disconnect between affectional attraction and the possibility of eventual traditional romance and sex growing out of it. It's not as neat and tidy as complete asexuality, but it's also disjointed enough not to always make total sense when viewed through the dominant dating-romance-sex paradigm. So really, for me the only way to play truth is to basically say something like:

"Yes, I'm attracted to you in a way which isn't quite totally typical hands-off platonic friendship, but it's not exactly the usual romance and sex stuff either. That may or may not develop, depending on time and how we click and get along, but what I really value is this super-close affectionate friendship. So let's just have that as a base, and cherish it for what it is, no matter what else might (or might not) develop - and/or be appropriate to indulge - later."

Yup. Awkwardly unconventional by usual standards. But the thing is - I genuinely value that grey-area "thing" for itself, and that's something I want to cultivate rather than look straight to potential for traditional full-on romance, or else have to throw the whole thing away. But yes, explaining this to people who are wired in a more typical sexual/romantic fashion is difficult. Many probably genuinely don't get it, because for them there's a clearer distinction between people whom they are attracted to in different ways. So something like this is a near-impossible way to interact with someone for them. Or even see the point of it perhaps.

But anyway, this is why I say that the only way to truly play nice is for me to keep my own actualisations of these types of feelings in check. But what's the baseline? - The baseline is something like a very deep friendship. That seems like the thing that should be the anchor for all of my relationships. But a strict divide between romantic and platonic is difficult to see when what I think of as "romantic" is basically indistinguishable from a very deeply affectionate friendship.

[Philiarocks]

>I associate the idea of romance (as I have with K) with sex and physical attraction.

(That totally wasn't meant to be a lecture or anything. Just pointing out how it all links together!)

It also has a great deal to do with the fact that that is my own personal, lived experience. My point of view, like that of any other person, is entirely subjective. I have rarely in my own life had to consider that romance can have a different definition to the traditional one. It can be hard to take a step back and move beyond the narrow frame of my own privileged experience. But learn I should, and learning is one of the reasons I'm here. Forgive me, I simply misunderstood what was meant by the word. So no, our relationship isn't 'romantic' in the traditional sense of the word, but I can understand why it could be considered as such, seeing as how we are indeed challenging dominant understandings of what constitutes a relationship.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to impose anything on anyone. But at least I have learned something today.

[artemisofephesus]

Don't be sorry - AVEN is here for these types of discussions. We all learn things all the time.

I think sometimes it's easy for everyone to forget that someone else's lived experience is just as valid as the next person's - whether it falls into existing frameworks of how things 'should' work or not. And challenging traditional narratives of how all this stuff works doesn't mean that anyone who actually does experience things that way is worth less. Isn't that the heart of what this has been about? Acknowledging how there just aren't enough existing words to capture everyone's experience in common discourse?

Philiarocks, you and me a pioneers here, like most people in any form of asexual or sexual/asexual relationship on AVEN. A brave new world for us all to explore for ourselves! I don't think it'd be possible to get it perfectly figured out from the beginning, and you know what? I kind of like it that way. <3

[Philiarocks]

Thanks, J. I'm doing my best. There are times when this whole world still seems so new to me. I'm still in the process of rewriting and renewing my whole understanding of how things work. We'll get there-- together. <3

[hansamuariga]

Something clicked inside of me when I read your post. Wow!!! I realized that this is exactly the way I feel about one of my guy friends. I have had some sort of "love" for him for a while, but I couldn't quite register exactly what it was that I felt for him. Things have been a little confusing for me lately because I only very recently discovered I was ace, and before that I had always been fed the lie that "love is when you want to have sex with someone."

Well, clearly my love doesn't fall into that category... and I don't exactly feel like it's a romantic type of love that I feel towards him either (although I'm still very confused on this, because I thought romantic love meant you wanted to kiss the other person and get sexual with them... but I don't feel this way).

So, thank you. I'm think I'm closer to figuring out my feelings towards him, and how they can progress from here. I'm very happy for you as well!

[Philiarocks]

Hi hansamuariga,

If my post has helped you along the path to self-discovery, I am pleased. There are so many different types of relationships out there, and so many different definitions of what constitutes a relationship. In the end, I think it's most effective to go with what works for you. I wish you and your person all the happiness in the world. ^_^