Looking to gain a deeper understaning

[frightened of forever]

Hi people! I'm a newbie and kinda went off a little bit in my 'about me' section so instead of retiring all of it on a phone keyboard I'm going to c/p it here and add a little more....

First off: I'm very guarded (at least with the world at large). I would never take a step like this if it wasn't essential.

That having been said I'm here for help. I'm in a relationship with a woman who may or may not be asexual. She isn't even sure about it. In any case it was her who directed me here. I am not just sexual but what her and I have come to call "hyper-sexual." In the beginning of our relationship it didn't seem like an issue. She apparently matched my sex drive. She told me things like I was the first person (besides herself) to give her an orgasm and that I made her enjoy it in a way that no one else ever had. Over time that slowly dwindled, along with the frequency and intimacy of our sexual encounters. Now when we talk about it it seems like she was intrigued with the novelty of enjoying sexual activities with someone else and it has worn off. She is not shy about telling me in detail how much she despises anything even peripherally sexual. Even deep kissing is quickly becoming a thing of the past.

I have looked for help other places and come up empty. People keep telling me that it will never work and that I should just move on but I have no interest in any version of my life that doesn't include her. Every other aspect of our relationship and life together is beyond amazing and I'm absolutely committed to making this work, not just in the short term but forever.

Paradoxically, that also terrifies me. Hence the name. I'm afraid of giving up something so central to who I am and thAt it will make me bitter in the end or cause issues that we won't be able to overcome. I'm scared of going forever in a relationship with someone who will never want to have sex with me, especially when that person turns me on as much as she does. And it's not even about the physical act so much as its about the feelings that accompany it. That's another part of what makes this so hard- before her I never understood the concept that sex could be more than a physical act. I've been in love before her. But the sex with those women was never like this. Which brings me to the most confusing aspect of all of this...

There are rare and windows infrequent windows where she not only enjoys it but seems to absolutely LOVE it. On even rarer occasions (that I can think of only twice in nearly two years) she will go so far as to initiate it. I don't understand how someone who is so disgusted by sexuality can have times where they really enjoy it? It is all very confusing and very difficult for us.

We tried to compromise. We tried having a set number of days per week that we had sex (3) but it fell apart. It was too much for her. I've tried making every concession I can think to make to make this easier for us. I've asked far less often, made it very brief when it does happen and gone to having sex with the room in complete darkness which is something that she seems to prefer. But it seems like every time I give an inch she wants a mile. If I ask once a week, that once is too much or it is on a bad day or at a bad time... something is ALWAYS wrong. I've tried pointing that out but it inevitably ends with a fight. She says that I don't understand how it feels for her to have to do that for me and thAt much is completely true. I conceded it totally. Where it gets frustrating for me is that even though she says she understands how hard it is for me to be consistently rejected and to get it less and less she doesnt act like she does at all. She gets hurt with me for even suggesting she may not get it. To her sex is just a physical thing and I could easily get that from masturbation while getting all of the feelings of intimacy and closeness from just being with her (apparently how she derives them). I do feel that with her when we are just holding each other but it isn't as intense as the pure togetherness that I feel when we have sex.

I guess there are a few things I'm after...

I want to understand who she is and how she feels, first and foremost. We have no chance of compromising and making this work if we don't understand each other.

I want her to really understand me and understand that even though sex is not a fundamental need for her it is for me. Sometimes it seems that because she regards sex as superfluous she doesn't see that that isn't the case for me. I want her to see that when I make all of these concessions and she doesn't meet me in the middle it makes me feel unwanted, unattractive, unimportant, alienated and ignored.

I want help finding a middle ground that's not going to make either of us feel like I currently do about it.

I want desperately to understand how there are times that she can seemingly love it so much and how so much fun doing it, but at other times simply a conversation that is sexual will key her to leave the room or a sex scene on tv will make her change the channel.

Most importantly of all I want to make absolutely certain that I can solidify my life together with the most amazing woman on the planet. There is no one else for me. I played the field and found the results lacking. I think the clearest way I can put this idea also underscores the problem that drove me to this site: it's not even just that I want her in particular forever. I don't want anyone else. Many many guys my age (26) seem most interested in screwing every woman they can and abhor the idea of 'one woman'.... I LOVE that idea but not for any 'one woman,' just this one. I never again want to wake up next to anyone else. I never again want to have sex with anyone else. I never want to LOVE anyone else.

When this all started she was terrified to talk to me about it because it was only about 6 months into us being together and she wasn't sure I would stay with her. I made a promise to her that the only reason sex would ever be the reason we split up is if she was having it with someone else. I intend to keep that promise. I'm here exposing myself in a way that I never thought I could to keep that promise. I will do anything to keep us together. If it means forcing myself to forgo sex I will but I'm here hoping to gain an insight into the matter that will allow us both to feel fulfilled in all phases of this relationship without alienating either of us.

Thanks in advance for you help.

*and sorry about the novel-esque length. I just hope so very much to find help that I wanted to include everything*

[ParaLLL]

...And some kind of error deleted the post I had. Oh well, attempt two!

First: you and your girlfriend will need to talk about this. Asexuality covers a huge range of experiences and thoughts and wants and needs and identities, and no one here can say where your girlfriend falls in all of that, or how to deal with it. It might be better not to try to talk for a while to adjust to all the information first, or it might mean having the conversation through writing so you can both think about what you say; I have no idea. But some kind of talking is going to be necessary. (Which... you seem to already be aware of, so I'm not sure why I'm saying this....)

Personally, I'm not sure I can be a lot of help, but I will share what I can. The first (in case you haven't seen it yet; I'm not sure how much you've explored already) is the difference between sexual attraction and sex drive/libido. Sexual attraction is... well, what it sounds like; a reaction to seeing someone. I've never experienced that, so I can't really define it well. Sex drive/libido is the desire or drive for sex, irrelevant to any person. Asexuals as a whole can fall all over the spectrum on both of these (which makes defining asexuality really complicated). Personally, I have not ever been sexually attracted to anyone; I doubt I ever will. Sex drive for me, though, will change; most of the time, it's minimal or absent, and the idea of sex just seems utterly boring. Occasionally, it will be higher; close to what I think a 'normal' level would be. Once in a while it will be in between, where sex is appealing but not really any more than 'sure, if there's nothing else to do, I wouldn't mind.' (I will add that all of this is in theory; I haven't ever had sex, but there are definite differences at times in whether I want to.) I can't say for sure, of course, but I would guess that something similar to this could explain why your girlfriend sometimes wants sex and sometimes doesn't, so that would be one thing I'd suggest looking at.

The only other thing I can think of to add is that, while I can't speak for anyone else, sexual things really are utterly incomprehensible to me. I can at least begin to wrap my mind around religions that include human sacrifice, fourth and fifth dimensions, and how aliens might communicate through a language of pheromones, but sexual things are bizarre and foreign and I can not understand them at all. I know they exist, they're important to people, and that I don't understand them, but that's all. It's possible that this is just me, but it's also possible that there will be some things that you and your girlfriend just won't ever be able to understand about each other. Which is not at all something that would prevent a relationship from working, but based on what you said about wanting to understand everything and be completely understood, it seemed worth pointing out anyway.

I'd suggest looking around the forum a bit, too; there are other couples on here that are in very similar situations and have gotten it to work or are in the midst of working it out. I don't know if there's really any specific place to find them, but I have seen enough comments to know there are some around if you look, and support is always nice to have

Good luck; it's always nice to see someone trying to make a relationship like this work, and especially great to see someone trying as hard as you are. I really hope this works out for both of you, and if you ever think I can help at all, even if just by listening to a rant, feel free to PM me.

[Lucinda]

Hi FoF, :)

One hard fact that you may be aware is that one person needs permission from another to have sex. However, no one needs permission from anyone not to have sex. When you say that you give an inch and she wants a mile, well that mile was always hers to begin with. She has the right to self autonomy.

When two people want to have sex with each other, they compromise to work out the when, where, how.

The type of compromise you are looking for is something completely different. You basically want her to do something you know she doesn't want to do. And what do you do that you don't want to do? Have less sex? Well, you would be having zero sex without her anyway, so you are really not giving up anything. Any time you ask for sex, you are putting yourself in a position for possible rejection ... she's not doing that to you, you are doing it to yourself.

How should she act to show that she gets it? You know the two of you don't view sex in the same way. Even if she completely understood the importance of sex for you, would it make any significant difference??? If a man wanted to have sex with you, you would understand the importance of it. You would guess that it is a fundamental need for him. You might even assume that it is as central for him as it is for you. Would you have sex with him? Why or why not? If you said "no" and he said he felt rejected, would you understand? Would you change your mind and have sex with him anyway? If not, and he asked you again the next day, would you say "no"?? If so, and he said your rejection was making him feel undesirable, what would your response be?

If you want to have sex when you are both really into it, then it would be at her blue moon initiation. At other times, you can think of things, if any, that may be sexual enough for you but not too much for her. That would require thinking outside the box. Otherwise, scheduled obligatory sex with a twist of pity may help relieve the burden that your hypersexuality places on you, but may prove too burdensome for her as she has already stated.

Lucinda

[frightened of forever]

Lucinda,

I was taken a bit aback by your answer. While I certainly appreciate different perspectives I get a definite sense of bias throughout your answer. The comparisons you draw between me feeling alienated by the rejection I feel from a woman I've chosen to spend my life with and me being asked for sex by and ultimate alienating a gay man are compelling but only if viewed on plane where all things are equal. The relationship we have makes jt completely different because I would never be in this type of loving committed relationship with another man. I think what has happened is that on the one hand you acknowledge that it is a fundamental need for me but on the other hand you go to great pains to stress calling it a want on repeated occasions. There is a difference and it is one that changes everything. The essence of a relationship is comprise, at least the essence of a successful one but what you are talking about is complete submission. The only thing that one human being totally submitting to another breeds is resentment and that is the opposite of what I'm trying to accomplish.

In the end I think that what you've said is precisely the type of thing that I'd like to avoid: a situation in which one or the other of us presents ideas to the extent that we've simply out thought the other. This is obviously something that you have spent a great deal of time thinking about and preparing defenses for and for that I am sorry. The simple fact that you have had to do that suggests the deeper problem of ignorance our society has in dealing with sexuality- ignorance. I can't imagine what it's like to be so misunderstood simply for feeling differently than most people do. The thing is that while I empathize with what you seem to have been through the suggestion you have presented is a recipe for failure based on a flawed assumption. You assume that sex is a want and it's not. It is a fundamental need at the core of any relationship that isn't between two asexuals. Me simply shutting up and taking whatever she gave me would be less the, allowing her to make up her own mind about what she wants to give me in this regard and more tantamount to me only eating ifnshe decided to throw me a scrap from the table occasionally. It would keep me alive to be sure but it would never fulfill everything that I really need.

You ask how she should act to show that she gets it... I think an actual acknowledgement of the sacrifice that I've made to give her more space would be a good start and meeting me more in the middle would be more the enough. I don't need a set schedule as you've suggested. Currently it happens about once a week and I'm okay with that. I just don't want to be rejected for three days before it does happen and treated like I'm expecting something totally wrong and unreasonable before we get to it happening. Then when it does I'd really prefer she not just be completely upset with me the entire time and for an hour afterwards. Basically I just want to see that she is trying as hard to understand my feelings as I feel I am hers and I want us to find a compromise in which neither of us comes away angry, upset or totally alienated by the other.

I appreciate the reply and sincerely hope that you get to a point where you can understand someone else's perspective as clearly as you seem tks understand your own.

Oh and sorry about the occasional incoherence.... I literally JUST woke up when I started writing lol.

[Guest]

Frightened - you say she is upset with you for an hour afterwards in sex. Now, when that happens to me, it is because I feel I _HAVE_ to have sex, because I _do_ understand it is painful to be rejected for my partner. Not because I want to have sex with him, but I feel I can't say no anymore or it will be a fight or he will pull away all affection until he gets it. Which, to me, makes sex feel... more like rape at that point, since it's entered into with feelings of "I have to, I can't say no, if I do he will hurt me and that is no fun so lets just get it over with" and when that happens, I do feel quite angry for at least an hour afterward and I want to stay away from him completely. I try to simply avoid him rather than take it out on him, cause logically I know he isn't trying to make me feel like that.

Now, I am not saying that you are trying to make her feel that way, or even that she does. That is how _I_ feel and it may be worth asking her about how she feels when she gets upset after sex. I know my partner doesn't mean to pull away/get angry, it's just being hurt. I am sure if you do that, you don't mean to either.

For her saying you don't understand how it feels to do that for you - yes you likely never will. It is emotionally draining to have sex if you really, really don't want to and don't even enjoy it. More so, if you have to pretend to enjoy it to make your partner enjoy it, or perform like you are being passionate. Some days when I have sex, it sucks so much energy out of me emotionally, that I don't feel like doing anything at all but sitting around and watching a movie alone.

My suggestion would be to work something out with her that can lessen the burden and still make it often enough you are satisfied. IE: Say once this week, skip a week, once the next week. Or once a week but she picks when and you agree upon a signal where she can let you know it's a good day to try. A wink, a caress, a hug, a word, whatever would be a CLEAR signal it's OK to initiate that day. That way you don't get rejected so much, don't feel as hurt, doesn't put that stress on the relationship and on both of you (you being hurt by it, her feeling guilty she is hurting you). If she has trouble remembering sex is something you should do that week, she could do something like set out a pretty night gown or lingerie for that week and keep in her closet, so when she gets dressed it's there as a reminder. Or put up a calendar and let her put a sticker on the day if she feels that day is a good one.

A schedule, even if a loosely done one, really does help. I hate the advances constantly, it makes me want to stay at a distance all the time cause I never know when one will come. If I can sorta predict it, I can handle it a lot better. Doesn't have to be strict and there should be leeway for both partners to say "not tonight, how about X ?" and no fighting happens when you have to reschedule, cause there are times when you're sick or have a headache or just having a really BAD day. But since my partner and I started scheduling sex, it has become a whole lot less stressful to both of us. I know i'm free from advances on the non-sex days, he knows what days he can ask and not get rejected. Now, it does take time to get used to a schedule and a strict one is not for everyone, so kick ideas around. I know you said set amount of days fell apart, but perhaps she needs a little more control over what days those are. :)

[Lady Girl]

I just want to say that pressure is not a good thing. I think you need to find out a little more definitely what she might find comfortable. The compromise is going to be something that is not your ideal or hers. It really sounds like maybe you need to have more communication? She is the best possible person to help you find the comfortable middle ground you're looking for.

One thing Lucinda said that I really agree with...she has every right to say no when you ask her for sex. It might be helpful for both of you if she initiates. This is just an idea you might want to consider.

[frightened of forever]

Hey initiating it was an idea I already had. She completely, flatly rejected it.

I think there's been a misunderstanding though. I never intended to imply that she didn't have the right to refuse it. I myself was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. I would never seek to do anything to make anyone feel forced, much less someone I love so much. The idea that that even might have been something she felt because of me was one that inbound so crushing made me want to vomit (literally. No metaphors here). Itnis still very hard to think about. I keep trying and it's like my mind CAN'T think about that for took long.

Anyway all I was really trying to say is that I think that in a committed monogamous relationship between two people like us there are going to be times that I want it and don't get it and times that she doesn't want it that I do. It just feels to me sometimes like I am giving far more effort in compromising on this than I am getting back.

Her* initiating....

Oops ;-)

[Lady Girl]

Ok, sorry! I totally get that. I am the sexual in a mixed relationship too and I also struggle with that feeling. One thing that occurred to me recently is that whole quantity vs. quality thing a person hears about. Maybe our compromises are kind of like that. The sexual compromises in a quantity kind of way (like more of the time we feel like we are the one compromising), and the asexual partner compromises in a qualitative way (like the quality of their compromise is extremely fine). I don't know, it's just a thought.

If she doesn't want to initiate maybe she could give you a sign? That's sort of what we do.

[frightened of forever]

We have been talking about that very thing since Liara posted it actually. It is hard to really find time to sit down and hammer out the details tho, or at least has been recently because of our work schedules. We work together and live together but she opens the store and I close it so other than days off its hard to have really detailed conversations about this since much of the the we have spent together in the last few weeks has been at work.

I do want to think all of you though. I still don't think I really understand it fully but I'm trying. More just trying to wrap my mind around it I guess. I kinda feel like someone told me that they didn't want to have the gift of sight. Its like I understand the words but why the holy hell would you NOT want that.

In any case I'm trying even if it feels demoralizing at times and hopeless at others. She is worth it. That's all that matters to me.

Want to **thank** all of you.

Oy. One of these days I'll sit down at my computer to post and my damn phone won't be able to auto correct all of these things.

[Guest]

If you cannot find time to get together and discuss it in detail, you could try writing out replies on some things or each of you write out things they are OK doing. IE: Amount of sex in what time frame? Who initiates and when? Should it be a signal? Would you rather do a safe word for when it's safe to advance? What type of sex - oral, hand, vaginal? How would you like sex to go (quick, slow, in the dark, in the light, close together, minimal contact, kissing, no kissing, etc)? That way it's just the information, you both have time to digest it. It's on paper, so there are no heated arguments coming from it. And when you do get together to talk, it saves time since you both know each others boundaries / wishes in detail and can jump to how to meet the middle ground, instead of having to share ideas then go to "how can we make this work for us?".

Both of you really need to decide what you want down to details. Then you can find that middle ground that works for both of you.

And if she is having sex with you, she is trying to make it work. You aren't the only one putting effort in. But it's probably really hard for her to wrap her head around it. It's like "How could you NOT want that?" to you, but it's "How COULD you want that?" to her. That is the problem, often sexual/asexuals just can't understand the other at all. So both try, but it ends up feeling like not enough on either end. I found it was way easier to just... stop trying to understand and just accept what he said as truth, even though it made zero sense to me. It's like comedies, I don't get them, but my boyfriend loves them - so sometimes I just endure watching this stupid movie that he laughs his head off to and I at most roll my eyes at. You have to appreciate the effort she is putting in, she has to appreciate the effort you are putting in.

And remember - she is probably still trying to work out what she wants herself. When you discover you aren't like everyone else sexually first it's often "Ok, I am broken, it'll fix itself. It's just a phase. I just need to get into it." Then it's "Omg what is wrong with me?" ... since Aven shows nothing is wrong, accepting that and then going "Well, what am I then?" can happen. This is confusing and a little daunting for a lot of people.

One thing that is very, very important to remember though is even if it's been 5 days between sex, if you have asked / made advances for sex to her within those 5 days, it probably doesn't feel like 5 days off for her. That is why I recommended the signal or schedule - if she wants to watch a movie or something with you, she needs to know it's not going to turn sexual if she just wants to spend quality time with you. That was the thing that caused me to decline sex so much more than normal before we set up a compromise, the being asked for sex over innocent seeming things and having 5 days between sex, but no days where he didn't ask for it. So to me, it felt like no break at all, to him it felt like forever because we hadn't actually had sex for days. Which made me want to just decline sex even more, which made him want to ask more. And it just got into this vicious cycle that built up so much resentment from both of us.

I wish you both luck in finding a compromise that works for you both. Remember it is a process and it may take some experimenting and trial and error for her to figure out what makes her comfortable. Both of you need to be accepting of mistakes and open to changing it until something really sticks. It took nearly a month (3ish weeks) for my boyfriend and I to finalize our compromise after we started experimenting with it.