Can a Girl be a Drag Queen/Gay Man?

[RainbowEuphoria]

As a forewarning, I'm no expert in Gender or Sexuality. If the terms below that I have used are incorrect, and you have some experience/authority on the subject, please correct me. I'm learning as much as I can. I'm a proud supporter of the GLBT*QQPAIA Community- Gay Lesbian Bisexual Trans* Queer Questioning Pansexual Asexual Intersex and Allies. And I don't wish to offend anyone with what I've written here. I'm not trying to stereotype or offend anyone. I'm just writing what I feel in an attempt to sort out some more personal confusions. There's some of my personal beliefs in here as well which you may not agree with as well. Thank you for understanding. I'd appreciate any help I can get here. :)

I've become very comfortable with myself as I've gone through the questioning process with my sexuality. I'm pretty sure I've got that down (it's taken the past three years). I'm proudly a Panromantic Asexual/Demisexual with a stronger attraction toward femininity (in anyone regardless of their gender identity).

Now something I've noticed about myself, is that I have this almost obsession with Gay culture and drag queens (and I have had this obsession for many years before I even knew that they existed, really). When I was younger I drew all of my people super feminine and half the time the boys wore dresses, fell in love with each other, and acted very feminine. I really don't know why I did that but I liked to have my characters be like that. I didn't know about the gay community until I was about 15 since my parents raised me incredibly traditionally and sheltered (if that's the right for it- it seemed more like unintentionally ignorant). I had always felt left out or as if I didn't fit in back then (not so much of a problem any more- Thank goodness!).

I was born a girl though I've been told by one of my best friends (who is trans and really smart about gender) that I remind him of a super sassy gay male diva or perhaps a drag queen. It's our on-going joke in a way. But in another way, it makes total sense to me. I keep falling in love with gay boys, actors, and drag queens for the most part- all people who'd have no interest in being with me (as far as I know).

Though it's more than that- For whatever reason I feel like I am or was supposed to be more like them. It's not as if I hate being a girl (Are you kidding me? I LOVE being a girl. Well, most of the time, anyway). My friend has this theory that I was a gay man in my past life in the 70's and the 80's (it was a great time to be alive- I can just feel it). She's very spiritual and in tune with the universe, so I believe her. It makes perfect sense. I feel like I'm missing a lot of fun by not being a part of the gay culture any more (though technically, for this life, I even haven't started, I suppose).

It's like my past gay life still greatly influences this life. It inspires me to want to help others. I think it gives me a better understanding of the struggle. I realize that being gay or a drag queen or anything but straight is not easy (I'm not straight right now). Society still has to "grow-up" more and become accepting of everyone. It's getting better but not nearly as fast as it should.

There is a small streak of gay man in me. Okay, it's not a small streak, at all. :P

I was entirely positive that I was a girl until very recently (I mean I didn't know about Transgender identities until recently). I've always thought gender-bending and defying the expected was good for broadening the way one could express themselves. It seemed just so neat to me. I also always seem to see a balance of feminine and masculine within people. It's like people are always both but one aspect is usually stronger than the other, though not always.

But I've digressed... I am wondering if it's possible that a girl could be a drag queen or a gay man? I know it may seem ridiculous but I'm trying to sort out my feelings(And ,boy, do I have a lot of those!). Part of my mind seems naturally think that I am a gay man. But then I realize "No, sweetie, you are a girl. What are you doing?" Good Question. What am I doing...? -_-

Though if I was a gay man, I'd probably still be asexual to some degree. That much seems to add up, no matter what. ^_^

[daveb]

sure, why not? :)

[CDSM]

You should talk to Great Thief Yatagarasu. She's not exactly like you, but what you describe is a bit like the controversial "girlfag" concept she's brought up lately.

[Quill Pen Gentleman]

CDSM: Girlfag? I have never heard of that word before. Huh.

Anyway, Rainbow, I've got a friend who's told me recently that if she were a boy she would be a gay man. And not just any gay man, like one of them "loud and proud" gay guys. So, I think that it is possible that maybe you are a gay man trapped inside a girl's body but perhaps you don't mind it as much as, say, a transexual male would be in a girl's body.

[Azure.Providence]

There is a such of a thing called a faux queen which is a biofemale who adopts the style of a drag queen. Wikipedia describes faux queens as "a drag queen trapped in a womans body" Perhaps that is a avenue worth exploring for you.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

But I've digressed... I am wondering if it's possible that a girl could be a drag queen or a gay man? I know it may seem ridiculous but I'm trying to sort out my feelings(And ,boy, do I have a lot of those!). Part of my mind seems naturally think that I am a gay man. But then I realize "No, sweetie, you are a girl. What are you doing?" Good Question. What am I doing...? -_-

Though if I was a gay man, I'd probably still be asexual to some degree. That much seems to add up, no matter what. ^_^

I've witnessed so much diversity on the road less travelled that took me to Gender Ambiguity that I'm sure that pretty much any combination is possible when it comes to human sexuality and gender. I've seen gay men do Suburban Housewife drag so well the local str8 guys were falling over themselves to get a better look.

Taking a concept from chemistry and nuclear physics, you might say you're a rare isotope of the element Female. Being one of those isotopes of a different element myself, I know perhaps a little of what you're feeling. You're not sure how well you'll be able to interact, how long the half-life of your particular gender isotope is.

Some of the folks in my past used to have a saying in this regard: "Don't write checks your body can't cash."

Too, you might find that even after finding a safe, comfortable place in the spectrum, the people you think you *should* have the easiest time being friendly with you will unfortunately be the ones who give you the coldest shoulder. Many gay men REALLY dislike Drag Queens and the effeminate stereotype. When the Trans community pulled itself up by its bootstraps onto the map, you heard some people in the Gay Community acting like this new class of upstarts were like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, wishing that they'd go off and develop their own culture by themselves. Trans was the new Queer, like that song from The Police: "Don't Stand So Close To Me."

But everyone needs an identity, and just because one may be a little ahead of their time, DOESN'T make the one they make for themselves less valid. I've come to think of my as being 'Blur'. I'm soo like that Necker Cube referenced somewhere here on AVEN. I used to be more 'Switch', but that's how we evolve-- refining what we found sort of works for us into something that REALLY works for us.

Good luck!

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

You should talk to Great Thief Yatagarasu. She's not exactly like you, but what you describe is a bit like the controversial "girlfag" concept she's brought up lately.

YOU HATH SUMMONED ME, OH MIGHTY CRYSTAL DRAGON SPACE MARINE!

Yes, I did immediately think that this was kind of like me when I noticed the title of the thread (except with me, there's no mention of any sort of past life or other mysticism - I just am). The thread on "girlfags" that I created is here. Whether you think the term describes you or not is up to you, and as mentioned on the thread there's some aspects of it that aren't so amazing (the name, for one thing - I've found that describing how I feel without attaching it to that term actually makes people more accepting), but I personally find that it's the closest fit to me. It's one of those terms where the people who use it are a real mixed bag - like, some people who use it are closer to being totally trans than anything else, while others use it because they're attracted to gay dudes. A lot of them seem to be somewhere in the middle of those extremes, though.

The reasons I myself use that label seem to be similar to yours - not exactly alike, but similar. I've been interested in gay culture since I was about 11 or 12, because that was the first time I really found out about the concept of people being gay (it didn't help that this was the time my older sister started reading yaoi manga and I ended up reading it too) and it really interested me. I had a phase of being a really rabid, obsessive and creepy yaoi fangirl before growing out of it (I still read yaoi, but I'm really picky about it and I have no qualms about criticising it). I act masculine enough that people assume I'm a lesbian, but my presentation and personality are more androgynous than anything else - long hair, boyish clothes, and being so boisterous that people get weirded out when I do something that's considered feminine. So my entire self, from my looks to how I act, can be viewed as being between genders anyway. I'm also interested in cross-dressing, and if I could, I would love to cross dress as a feminine guy. Me and my best friend (who's a butch lesbian, although she actively calls herself a dyke) were talking about it yesterday, and she mentioned that we should both cross-dress one day and go out on the town, and she joked that we would just go from being a tomboyish straight girl with her "token gay" friend to a feminine gay guy with a "token straight" friend. Obviously, we were just joking around, but I was thrilled at the fact that she would totally accept me if I were to attempt to cross dress in that fashion (according to her, I'd make the best gay guy :D ). I'm massively attracted to either nerdy guys, or guys who subvert gender stereotypes and expectations - I often fancy "metrosexual" guys, or guys who have feminine interests (I've had crushes on more musical theatre nerds than you would believe possible). And I love androgyny, too, in both men and women. I'd love to know what it's like to be a man, and my ideal body would be one where I could become a man at will and then change back again (although I HAVE joked that I'd probably be the worse person in the world to have a cock, so being female bodied is probably a good thing). In my head, I either feel agendered or like this bizarre kind of male-female mish-mash - I describe myself as being like "an entire girl plus half a boy", to quote Eddie Izzard. So that's why I call myself a girlfag, and while I know there are negatives that come with that term, I don't care what other people say - I'm proud of it.

I'm not saying that you should totally call yourself this, or that it fits you or whatever - you can take it or leave it, and that's totally fine. I just thought you should know that there are many women out there who identify at least partly as being gay men, and they are very proud of it, so what you're feeling isn't all that strange.

As mentioned before, there's also the concept of Faux Queens, which would be worth checking out in your case. I can't tell you much about that, though, since I don't really know all that much about it aside from the fact that Faux Queens do their best to exaggerate femininity to such an extreme that they come across as being like Drag Queens.

[Janus the Fox]

I've heared the term "Drag King" somewhere before... It's where women drag act as men. I've heared it from Japanese subcultures, I think...  

[5_♦♣]

Sorry to split hairs but, "Don't Stand So Close To Me" is about a student-teacher relationship, just as the lyrics suggest. Although I can sorta see how you made the connection.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

Sorry to split hairs but, "Don't Stand So Close To Me" is about a student-teacher relationship, just as the lyrics suggest. Although I can sorta see how you made the connection.

Perhaps if you'd have seen the late 80's and the 90s through my experiences as a member of a gender minority? I think there's a very good chance you'd see the metaphor as being very apt. I still remember being referred to a a 'baby queer'. We were the new kids on the block and everyone was, at first, very inclusive. After a while, though, it felt more like reading for a part in Being Wednesday Addams.

Ancient history for some, but I remember it as being a time of so much promise and so much disappointment.

Maybe a more contemporary metaphor might be 'You're a moped.'

[henshin]

Obviously its fine to identify however you will. Theres some things I don't understand about this though and I'm not asking you for answers right here or anything, just expressing my thoughts.

I don't understand what kind of femininity you are interested in expressing by talking about drag queens and flamboyant gay men, is there a problem with expressing femininity as a woman?

How does expressing femininity as a male change the experience for you?

What is it, precisely you like about the gay culture? (Which by the way, probably isn't as great as you might think)

Why do you think yourself a gay man specifically? Why not a straight man who likes acting flamboyantly? (Which is what I'm getting from this, I'm not sure if this is what attracts you to gay culture or drag queens specifically)

I also have to say that I think you should stop referring to gay men as though they are one homogenous body of people. Not all gay ben are camp and flamboyant and feminine, not by a large margin.

I also have to say I think past life stuff is bull, and while it might help you with some personal things, please don't just use it like its the reason and stop searching yourself, which to be fair it doesn't sound like you're doing.

[CDSM]

I also have to say that I think you should stop referring to gay men as though they are one homogenous body of people. Not all gay ben are camp and flamboyant and feminine, not by a large margin.

I also have to say I think past life stuff is bull, and while it might help you with some personal things, please don't just use it like its the reason and stop searching yourself, which to be fair it doesn't sound like you're doing.

You know... that's the thing, isn't it? When we refer to them as a homogenous body of people. They're just people that are men, that like other men.

And yet there is still this thing called "gay culture", and the OP even said that's what they liked. (And I'm sure there are a good chunk of gay men that loathe the idea of "gay culture").

I wonder how it relates to someone that is a culture fanatic of, say, another country's culture. You can admire the 'cultural values' and have an interest in the customs... but you have to realize not everyone within a given culture will hold the same values, match up with them, or even take part in the same customs or same way... and you also have to realize that you just aren't a member of that culture and you can't really become a part (unless the culture has an element about letting outsiders in).

*Note: It would be different if you were transsexual, then you really would be a gay man. That's the case here... if you're genderqueer/genderfluid that's also a different story, which is always a tough one, I think, since you can't really present that way in a 100% effective manner.

I think it is fine if you like and want to emulate the super-flamboyant style (gay men do not have a monopoly on this), and if you want to dress that way and associate people with people that do, but what you shouldn't do is equate it with gay culture/gay people in your mind.

[Bye Bye Birdy]

x

[CDSM]

I wonder how it relates to someone that is a culture fanatic of, say, another country's culture. You can admire the 'cultural values' and have an interest in the customs... but you have to realize not everyone within a given culture will hold the same values, match up with them, or even take part in the same customs or same way... and you also have to realize that you just aren't a member of that culture and you can't really become a part (unless the culture has an element about letting outsiders in).

I think it is fine if you like and want to emulate the super-flamboyant style (gay men do not have a monopoly on this), and if you want to dress that way and associate people with people that do, but what you shouldn't do is equate it with gay culture/gay people in your mind.

Agreed. As I've said elsewhere, that's how I am with Russian culture--it's a huge area interest for me, and I can still be more of an expert (in a scholarly way) than most Russians on literature, history, etc. if I really dedicate myself to the study. But I'm not Russian, not truly, and I never will be. It might be unpleasant to admit, but I think the truth is this: you can love something, be a huge fan of it and know everything there is to know about it, admire it--and that's all very respectable worthwhile in itself--and even want to be a part of it, yet not be a part of it, in reality. I'm NOT saying that this is necessarily the case here, but it IS a real possibility that is never, ever brought up here, in my experience. It's simply not true that you can be "anything you want". Yeah, it sucks, but hey--that's life.

But do you need to be Russian? Because, whatever you like about something, you can still emulate it, without claiming to be that thing, which is more a label of circumstance than a true quality.

I can't be Japanese, but what is it that I admire about their culture? Say I admire samurai a lot. Now, I can't be a 'samurai' because it is a Japanese cultural and historical concept, but I can still follow the samurai code, I can still train in martial arts, I can even dress in the clothes if that is what I want as well. I won't call myself or be a samurai, but I will still "be" the things I see in samurai that I like. If that makes sense?

People just have to separate the boxes from the contents, and realize that it's the contents they really want, not the box.

(Now if all you want is the "rep" that comes with a label, that's wrong, but it's also different).

Again, I don't understand what it is about being flamboyant that's supposedly a "gay male" thing. Seriously? This is a huge thing at theatre parties at my college, and even I dress up. Lesbians can be fabulous, too! 8)

Nuh uh, lesbians have to have short spiky hair and wear tank tops and leather jackets. Why can't you be more stereotypical?

[Bye Bye Birdy]

x

[RainbowEuphoria]

But I've digressed... I am wondering if it's possible that a girl could be a drag queen or a gay man? I know it may seem ridiculous but I'm trying to sort out my feelings(And ,boy, do I have a lot of those!). Part of my mind seems naturally think that I am a gay man. But then I realize "No, sweetie, you are a girl. What are you doing?" Good Question. What am I doing...? -_-

Though if I was a gay man, I'd probably still be asexual to some degree. That much seems to add up, no matter what. ^_^

I've witnessed so much diversity on the road less travelled that took me to Gender Ambiguity that I'm sure that pretty much any combination is possible when it comes to human sexuality and gender. I've seen gay men do Suburban Housewife drag so well the local str8 guys were falling over themselves to get a better look.

Taking a concept from chemistry and nuclear physics, you might say you're a rare isotope of the element Female. Being one of those isotopes of a different element myself, I know perhaps a little of what you're feeling. You're not sure how well you'll be able to interact, how long the half-life of your particular gender isotope is.

Some of the folks in my past used to have a saying in this regard: "Don't write checks your body can't cash."

Too, you might find that even after finding a safe, comfortable place in the spectrum, the people you think you *should* have the easiest time being friendly with you will unfortunately be the ones who give you the coldest shoulder. Many gay men REALLY dislike Drag Queens and the effeminate stereotype. When the Trans community pulled itself up by its bootstraps onto the map, you heard some people in the Gay Community acting like this new class of upstarts were like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer, wishing that they'd go off and develop their own culture by themselves. Trans was the new Queer, like that song from The Police: "Don't Stand So Close To Me."

But everyone needs an identity, and just because one may be a little ahead of their time, DOESN'T make the one they make for themselves less valid. I've come to think of my as being 'Blur'. I'm soo like that Necker Cube referenced somewhere here on AVEN. I used to be more 'Switch', but that's how we evolve-- refining what we found sort of works for us into something that REALLY works for us.

Good luck!

Thank you so much! :)

I am well aware that there are gays that have a strong distaste for Drag Queens and other transgender individuals. Unfortunately, I had to work with a boy like that on a big project for my school pride group. Though I can understand why he might not like being stereotyped (let's be honest who does?) as being effeminate just because he happens to be a gay man. Gay Male does not immediately equal effeminate male. I get that. Even so that's no excuse for being cruel toward the drag queens and other trans* folk. They should be inclusive because as a gay person they personally know the pain that society sometimes likes to inflict upon those who are different, especially because they've likely felt it themselves. I honestly don't understand that. You'd like to think people are more accepting after suffering through painful prejudices together.

I am fortunate enough to be very good friends with a Transman who enjoys being "fabulously gay asexual best friends" with me. So I've seen through him how such stupid prejudices have really hurt him and others. He's one of my absolutely favorite people in the entire world and it kills me to see him constantly get hurt! :( It makes me really want to be able to stand up for him and people like him. The Trans* community as all of the GLBT*QA communities deserve more respect. It really should be as simple as that. -_-

I've heared the term "Drag King" somewhere before... It's where women drag act as men. I've heared it from Japanese subcultures, I think...  

Ah, I think I know a little about Drag Kings (though you may not want to quote me on this, I'm trying to remember what my gender expert friend told me). As I understand it they are women who look good as men, tend to preform (on stage or in shows) as men and sometimes identify as Lesbian (both outside or inside of drag, depending on the king). They are kind of like the reverse of Drag Queens. I've been called this before but I don't think it fits me quite as well. It was an interesting idea though. Thank you any way. :)

There is a such of a thing called a faux queen which is a biofemale who adopts the style of a drag queen. Wikipedia describes faux queens as "a drag queen trapped in a womans body" Perhaps that is a avenue worth exploring for you.

Ah, Thank you Sweetie. I will definitely look into what Faux Queens are. They sound intriguing. :)

[RainbowEuphoria]

Obviously its fine to identify however you will. Theres some things I don't understand about this though and I'm not asking you for answers right here or anything, just expressing my thoughts.

I don't understand what kind of femininity you are interested in expressing by talking about drag queens and flamboyant gay men, is there a problem with expressing femininity as a woman?

How does expressing femininity as a male change the experience for you?

What is it, precisely you like about the gay culture? (Which by the way, probably isn't as great as you might think)

Why do you think yourself a gay man specifically? Why not a straight man who likes acting flamboyantly? (Which is what I'm getting from this, I'm not sure if this is what attracts you to gay culture or drag queens specifically)

I also have to say that I think you should stop referring to gay men as though they are one homogenous body of people. Not all gay ben are camp and flamboyant and feminine, not by a large margin.

I also have to say I think past life stuff is bull, and while it might help you with some personal things, please don't just use it like its the reason and stop searching yourself, which to be fair it doesn't sound like you're doing.

Ah, okay, I think I understand why you might want to ask me those questions. I'll try to answer as best as I can. ^_^

I have no problem expressing myself as a feminine woman (I'm proudly a fem girl!). As I've said, I have no real problem with being a girl about 85% of the time there are just some times that I think being a gay man would be more fun. I am a feminist in many ways, at the same time. I really want to see more woman in political and economic power globally. I strongly believe that if the all of the sexes were equal, the world would be a phenomenally better place.

I've never thought of myself as a male exactly. The idea is pretty abstract and has a lot to do with my feelings. I feel a strong pull toward or attraction to many nonsexual things that might be considered part of the "gay culture". I'm not really sure why. It's just easier for me to identify with, even though I am not male and won't likely ever be male in this life. I am not sure if that even makes any sense but that's how I feel.

I can't be straight. I know that for a fact living in a world dominated by straight culture, I've always felt alienated and like an outsider. It never occurred to me why people seem to be so obsessed with sex, particularly with someone who traditionally fulfills the opposite sex's expected role. It seemed wrong for me, even at a young age. I've fallen for women, men, and Trans* people alike. For whatever reason, Straight culture doesn't seem to apply to me. It never really has though as a Panromantic, I can't say that it won't ever apply to me. It might some day but it's difficult for me to imagine this ever happening.

Ah, Yes, I'm well aware that many gay men are very masculine or butch and not flamboyant and effeminate. I'm not trying to stereotype. I know that's incredibly wrong to do that. The gay man or men I closely identify with happen to be more on the feminine side than not and tend to display some "feminine" characteristics. I am on a whole more attracted to femininity in people regardless of their sex. Being flamboyant I think is an inborn part of me just as is my asexuality. Neither can be ignored for me. It's just part of me, if that makes sense.

I can understand that you may not agree with the idea of my past life affecting me now. It's just a very strong personal belief of mine. I respect that you do not agree with me. I'm normally not a much of a spiritual person. I rely a lot on my feelings to try to solve my problems as well as logic, if it can indeed apply. I'm not saying that I'm going to immediately stop searching as soon as I am done reading all of these comments. Oh, no, not at all! I believe that life is a journey and that there are so many things that we're meant to learn. It will take a lot more time to learn about who I am, the people in my life, and other such questions (I'm only 19 right now- if I am meant to live a full life, I have most of my time ahead of me). I've realized that selling one's self short is no good. So I thank you for cautioning me against rushing any decisions. I had been questioning my sexuality up until recently and that took me three years to figure out. I realize that some matters require a lot of patience and time to think and experience life.

Hopefully this helps you to understand where I am coming from. Your questions were all quite thought provoking and brought many good points to my attention. Thank you for your input! :)

[RainbowEuphoria]

You should talk to Great Thief Yatagarasu. She's not exactly like you, but what you describe is a bit like the controversial "girlfag" concept she's brought up lately.

YOU HATH SUMMONED ME, OH MIGHTY CRYSTAL DRAGON SPACE MARINE!

Yes, I did immediately think that this was kind of like me when I noticed the title of the thread (except with me, there's no mention of any sort of past life or other mysticism - I just am). The thread on "girlfags" that I created is here. Whether you think the term describes you or not is up to you, and as mentioned on the thread there's some aspects of it that aren't so amazing (the name, for one thing - I've found that describing how I feel without attaching it to that term actually makes people more accepting), but I personally find that it's the closest fit to me. It's one of those terms where the people who use it are a real mixed bag - like, some people who use it are closer to being totally trans than anything else, while others use it because they're attracted to gay dudes. A lot of them seem to be somewhere in the middle of those extremes, though.

The reasons I myself use that label seem to be similar to yours - not exactly alike, but similar. I've been interested in gay culture since I was about 11 or 12, because that was the first time I really found out about the concept of people being gay (it didn't help that this was the time my older sister started reading yaoi manga and I ended up reading it too) and it really interested me. I had a phase of being a really rabid, obsessive and creepy yaoi fangirl before growing out of it (I still read yaoi, but I'm really picky about it and I have no qualms about criticising it). I act masculine enough that people assume I'm a lesbian, but my presentation and personality are more androgynous than anything else - long hair, boyish clothes, and being so boisterous that people get weirded out when I do something that's considered feminine. So my entire self, from my looks to how I act, can be viewed as being between genders anyway. I'm also interested in cross-dressing, and if I could, I would love to cross dress as a feminine guy. Me and my best friend (who's a butch lesbian, although she actively calls herself a dyke) were talking about it yesterday, and she mentioned that we should both cross-dress one day and go out on the town, and she joked that we would just go from being a tomboyish straight girl with her "token gay" friend to a feminine gay guy with a "token straight" friend. Obviously, we were just joking around, but I was thrilled at the fact that she would totally accept me if I were to attempt to cross dress in that fashion (according to her, I'd make the best gay guy :D ). I'm massively attracted to either nerdy guys, or guys who subvert gender stereotypes and expectations - I often fancy "metrosexual" guys, or guys who have feminine interests (I've had crushes on more musical theatre nerds than you would believe possible). And I love androgyny, too, in both men and women. I'd love to know what it's like to be a man, and my ideal body would be one where I could become a man at will and then change back again (although I HAVE joked that I'd probably be the worse person in the world to have a cock, so being female bodied is probably a good thing). In my head, I either feel agendered or like this bizarre kind of male-female mish-mash - I describe myself as being like "an entire girl plus half a boy", to quote Eddie Izzard. So that's why I call myself a girlfag, and while I know there are negatives that come with that term, I don't care what other people say - I'm proud of it.

I'm not saying that you should totally call yourself this, or that it fits you or whatever - you can take it or leave it, and that's totally fine. I just thought you should know that there are many women out there who identify at least partly as being gay men, and they are very proud of it, so what you're feeling isn't all that strange.

As mentioned before, there's also the concept of Faux Queens, which would be worth checking out in your case. I can't tell you much about that, though, since I don't really know all that much about it aside from the fact that Faux Queens do their best to exaggerate femininity to such an extreme that they come across as being like Drag Queens.

Thank you so much! I really appreciate your trying to help me. I shall most definitely check out your thread on Girlfags. It sounds like it may apply to me. :)

I just adore your signature. Emilie Autumn is so neat!

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I am well aware that there are gays that have a strong distaste for Drag Queens and other transgender individuals. Unfortunately, I had to work with a boy like that on a big project for my school pride group. Though I can understand why he might not like being stereotyped (let's be honest who does?) as being effeminate just because he happens to be a gay man. Gay Male does not immediately equal effeminate male. I get that. Even so that's no excuse for being cruel toward the drag queens and other trans* folk. They should be inclusive because as a gay person they personally know the pain that society sometimes likes to inflict upon those who are different, especially because they've likely felt it themselves. I honestly don't understand that. You'd like to think people are more accepting after suffering through painful prejudices together.

I think one of the saddest, most disheartening experience I ever had to process was finding that outgroups many times find their own scapegoats to abuse. It's not logical, but it often true. That the Apple of Bigotry often doesn't fall very far from the Tree. Maybe it's like abused children growing up to be abusers themselves because it's all they've ever known?

In the face of such aridity and disenchantment, sometimes all one can do is celebrate empathy and lovingkindness every time it timidly shows itself from behind it's close embrace of the Human Racial Memory?

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

I am well aware that there are gays that have a strong distaste for Drag Queens and other transgender individuals. Unfortunately, I had to work with a boy like that on a big project for my school pride group. Though I can understand why he might not like being stereotyped (let's be honest who does?) as being effeminate just because he happens to be a gay man. Gay Male does not immediately equal effeminate male. I get that. Even so that's no excuse for being cruel toward the drag queens and other trans* folk. They should be inclusive because as a gay person they personally know the pain that society sometimes likes to inflict upon those who are different, especially because they've likely felt it themselves. I honestly don't understand that. You'd like to think people are more accepting after suffering through painful prejudices together.

I think one of the saddest, most disheartening experience I ever had to process was finding that outgroups many times find their own scapegoats to abuse. It's not logical, but it often true. That the Apple of Bigotry often doesn't fall very far from the Tree. Maybe it's like abused children growing up to be abusers themselves because it's all they've ever known?

In the face of such aridity and disenchantment, sometimes all one can do is celebrate empathy and lovingkindness every time it timidly shows itself from behind it's close embrace of the Human Racial Memory?

One thing that pisses me off even more is gay guys who hate effeminate gay guys. Like, does anyone remember that troll who came on AVEN for the express purpose of proclaiming that Homoromantic Asexuals don't belong in the gay community and "don't count" as being gay? Anyone remember that dude? One of the things he was saying, however, was that he "sticks to his kind" and was actually disgusted by camp gay men. That...that worried me. It did, because isn't that such a stupid way to behave towards your own allies? I think Zinnia Jones did a really good video in the subject:

[miqui]

^So much yes to everything Zinnia says!!^ -_-

[Calligraphette_Coe]

One thing that pisses me off even more is gay guys who hate effeminate gay guys. Like, does anyone remember that troll who came on AVEN for the express purpose of proclaiming that Homoromantic Asexuals don't belong in the gay community and "don't count" as being gay? Anyone remember that dude? One of the things he was saying, however, was that he "sticks to his kind" and was actually disgusted by camp gay men. That...that worried me. It did, because isn't that such a stupid way to behave towards your own allies?

Never attribute to stupidity that which can better be explained by misogyny. It might seem counterintuitive, but gay men can be every bit as misogynistic as their str8 bothers. Here are some quotes from some self-proclaimed straight-acting gay men:

"I"m totally embarrasesd by the little pussy I used to be. I left all that feminine stuff behind me a long time ago and really butched up once I got to college and law school. I don't care to be reminded how girlie I was by looking at some guy who never got *his* act together."

"We dislike effeminate men first and foremost because they are behaving like women. In a male-dominated society that places men way up *here* and women way down *there*,any man who would surrender his God-given place of superiority in our social hierarchy just isn't worth a damn."

'If you want to have a man, you have to *act* like a man. If I wanted a pussy, I'd just ball a chick. I wouldn't even *hang* with a femme guy."

I know what hurt me the most growing up was trying to form friendships with girls, only to have the Macho Shithead Squad come in and turn them against me by making THEM seem like sexual outlaws. :( And the worst of the MSS? I think he's dead now, but he never got married and it wouldn't surprise me to find out he was a Bear.

[miqui]

Never attribute to stupidity that which can better be explained by misogyny.

YES, YES and YES!

"I"m totally embarrasesd by the little pussy I used to be. I left all that feminine stuff behind me a long time ago and really butched up once I got to college and law school. I don't care to be reminded how girlie I was by looking at some guy who never got *his* act together."

"We dislike effeminate men first and foremost because they are behaving like women. In a male-dominated society that places men way up *here* and women way down *there*,any man who would surrender his God-given place of superiority in our social hierarchy just isn't worth a damn."

'If you want to have a man, you have to *act* like a man. If I wanted a pussy, I'd just ball a chick. I wouldn't even *hang* with a femme guy."

:o :o

Doesn't get much clearer than that what this is really all about, does it? Holy shit! With friends like this, who needs enemies? We sissies need to stick together.

[CDSM]

They want acceptable manly behavior to include homosexuality, because they are homosexuals, but they still want to be able to be misogynistic, enforce their standards of gender roles, etc.

Which makes them just as bad as the straight men that don't even accept homosexuality.

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

One thing that pisses me off even more is gay guys who hate effeminate gay guys. Like, does anyone remember that troll who came on AVEN for the express purpose of proclaiming that Homoromantic Asexuals don't belong in the gay community and "don't count" as being gay? Anyone remember that dude? One of the things he was saying, however, was that he "sticks to his kind" and was actually disgusted by camp gay men. That...that worried me. It did, because isn't that such a stupid way to behave towards your own allies?

Never attribute to stupidity that which can better be explained by misogyny. It might seem counterintuitive, but gay men can be every bit as misogynistic as their str8 bothers. Here are some quotes from some self-proclaimed straight-acting gay men:

"I"m totally embarrasesd by the little pussy I used to be. I left all that feminine stuff behind me a long time ago and really butched up once I got to college and law school. I don't care to be reminded how girlie I was by looking at some guy who never got *his* act together."

"We dislike effeminate men first and foremost because they are behaving like women. In a male-dominated society that places men way up *here* and women way down *there*,any man who would surrender his God-given place of superiority in our social hierarchy just isn't worth a damn."

'If you want to have a man, you have to *act* like a man. If I wanted a pussy, I'd just ball a chick. I wouldn't even *hang* with a femme guy."

I know what hurt me the most growing up was trying to form friendships with girls, only to have the Macho Shithead Squad come in and turn them against me by making THEM seem like sexual outlaws. :( And the worst of the MSS? I think he's dead now, but he never got married and it wouldn't surprise me to find out he was a Bear.

I think with some of them, it's the whole "Stop acting stereotypical!" thing - they're used to the public assuming that gay guys are normally camp, and they don't identify that way. But that's no reason to hate on the camp gays, it really isn't.

And yeah, it's mostly misogyny. Although I do find it weird when people claim that camp gay guys are "acting like women". I remember once reading a comic (I tried to find it again, but I couldn't - sorry) where a man and a woman are talking, and the man says something like "I don't mind gay guys, but I wish some of them would stop acting like women." At which point this fabulously camp gay guy comes up and chats briefly to the girl before flouncing away. Her only comment is "Okay, answer me this; when have you EVER seen a woman act like that?". The artist commented on it, saying that if she (obviously a woman) has to deliberately put on an impression to be acting like the stereotypical camp gay, then they're clearly not acting "like women". So that comparison confuses me so much. I know more flamboyant gay guys, and they don't act like women do. It confuses me, it really does.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I think with some of them, it's the whole "Stop acting stereotypical!" thing - they're used to the public assuming that gay guys are normally camp, and they don't identify that way. But that's no reason to hate on the camp gays, it really isn't.

And yeah, it's mostly misogyny. Although I do find it weird when people claim that camp gay guys are "acting like women". I remember once reading a comic (I tried to find it again, but I couldn't - sorry) where a man and a woman are talking, and the man says something like "I don't mind gay guys, but I wish some of them would stop acting like women." At which point this fabulously camp gay guy comes up and chats briefly to the girl before flouncing away. Her only comment is "Okay, answer me this; when have you EVER seen a woman act like that?". The artist commented on it, saying that if she (obviously a woman) has to deliberately put on an impression to be acting like the stereotypical camp gay, then they're clearly not acting "like women". So that comparison confuses me so much. I know more flamboyant gay guys, and they don't act like women do. It confuses me, it really does.

But, is it any accident that someone like Ru Paul quickly latched onto Sarah Palin to caricature when she became the VP candidate 4 years ago? Why was Tammy Faye Baker good-naturedly picked on by Drag Queens? (She did come to admire some of the people who imitated her.) I think Dolly Parton said that once, just for kicks, snuck into a Dolly Parton Drag Queen event-- and DIDN"T even get honorable mention, LOL!!!

I guess you could honestly wonder: Do some over-the-top XX women act like Drag Queens? Or vice versa? Or neither, since art imitates life?

I haven't personally met that many camp gay men, but more than one has told me that sometimes they act over the top to, as one put it, "... see Miss Thing get his panties in a wad" referring to str8 acting Log Cabin types.

And as I said in another post somewhere here, one of favorite people could do the Suburban Housewife Act so convincingly that even straight women weren't sure. ( I sooo want to go back 20 years in time, get all dolled up and go out with him to dance with cowboys again, lol).

[pepper]

I wonder if this is still active? Is drag king a thing? I'm bio female but some days I like to bind my chest up and go out as a guy. It's not really a "style of dress" for me, I change how I speak and my mannerisms. How I htink stays the same though, but I think I'm pretty genderless in that respect..

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

I wonder if this is still active? Is drag king a thing? I'm bio female but some days I like to bind my chest up and go out as a guy. It's not really a "style of dress" for me, I change how I speak and my mannerisms. How I htink stays the same though, but I think I'm pretty genderless in that respect..

Yes, Drag King is a thing. I think I'd make a damn sexy king, actually. :D

[Azure.Providence]

Are we engaging in thread necromancy?

Never attribute to stupidity that which can better be explained by misogyny.

YES, YES and YES!

>"I"m totally embarrasesd by the little pussy I used to be. I left all that feminine stuff behind me a long time ago and really butched up once I got to college and law school. I don't care to be reminded how girlie I was by looking at some guy who never got *his* act together."

"We dislike effeminate men first and foremost because they are behaving like women. In a male-dominated society that places men way up *here* and women way down *there*,any man who would surrender his God-given place of superiority in our social hierarchy just isn't worth a damn."

'If you want to have a man, you have to *act* like a man. If I wanted a pussy, I'd just ball a chick. I wouldn't even *hang* with a femme guy."

Doesn't get much clearer than that what this is really all about, does it? Holy shit! With friends like this, who needs enemies? We sissies need to stick together.

Yes, yes we do...

[tadkitty]

This thread hasn't been active for a long time and is now being locked to avoid thread necromancy. If anyone would like to discuss this topic further, feel free to start a new thread about it.
Tadkitty-Gender Discussion Moderator