Swedish preschool ommits gender identity

[MissBiochemistry]

Look, some kids wanna act like their stereotypical gender. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

Personally, when I was growing up, I played with dolls, and I played with some boys toys as well.

I totally agree. In my experience, you can raise your child as gender-neutral as you wish but probably the child will become very much like the stereotype anyway. Most little girls like princesses and little boys cars, and it's ok. Some little boys like princesses and little girls cars, and that's ok too. I liked both, I played with dolls a lot but also enjoyed boy's activities. And I often preferred to play with boys, and was interested in "male" things like technology. I still don't know how I became a skirt-loving long-haired straight grownup lady...

I work as children's book club telemarketer, and I and my workmates sometimes talk to parents who are very much into this gender-neutral thing. Our usual strategy for choosing the books for the starting packet is to ask about the child's age and sex as that's a good starting point for choosing the right books. And if the little girl doesn't like princesses then I can put there the car book instead, of course. But some parents are very upset about the idea that the child's sex would have something to do with the book recommendations. Fact is that it would be too slow to go through all the alternatives with every single client as most of them take my first suggestions anyway. Most kids like things that are typical for their sex to like.

[shaedofblue]

The preschool obviously isn't forcing kids to be gender neutral. It is just being conscious of and compensating for the stereotype-reinforcing bent of society.

[Worst Username Ever]

Might be somewhat extreme, but I like the thing about disproving stereotypes.

I think I grew up as kind of non-stereotypical by myself, though. As a kid, I had no interest in the pink fluffy princess Barbie "girly" stuff, but I didn't like cars too much either. What I liked was books(I learned to read at the age of 3, actually) plush toys(which I suppose are pretty gender-neutral) and Legos. Oh, and Pokémon cards! (And from the age of around 8, when we got proper internet... the internet. x3) I preferred pants to skirts(although I had nothing against wearing a dress for formal events and such). All the time, however, I was sure I was a girl, and didn't need the pink Barbie stuff to be one. I also remember, from a young age, hating many of the female stereotypes in young childrens' media, like the "damsel in distress" needing a man to save them, and how many girls in books, cartoons ect. were so goddamn stereotypically "pink and sparkly and girly"... (One of the reasons I hated being called things such as "little princess", because it only reminded me of what I didn't like.) I wanted more tougher tomboys. (Actually, one of my imaginary friends was a girl like this... she also had a "weak" boyfriend, who she had to save at times. x3) Today, I strongly prefer pants to skirts, keep my hair somewhat short, and love video games and the internet. The most "girly" thing I do would be... liking cute things or something? But I'm not really "manly" either. I'm just me, really, and don't care one bit about gender roles.

As for my little brother, while his interests were otherwise typically "boyish", he also had a baby doll to play with. The kind you feed, change and such. He played with this a lot, and no one had any problem with this.

[Henny]

As I live in Sweden I can make at least a comment about this. Ehh.. not gonna be long. The situation in Sweden concerning these things (connected with feminism) is... and this is my highly personal opinion.. extraordinary complex. That is my comment! :P

Femininism is hated by "the people of reality" ( :lol: ). Still, any politician worth their salt would identify with it given the question (if only because it gives votes...)

While I do think it's great that kids are given the opportunity to not be limited by gender stereotypes, I think it should be an individual's choice and not something that a school regulates. That said, it would be cool to go to a school that accepts people from all across the gender spectrum, so I do think the intentions are good.

I was going to reply to this, but I see shaedofblue has given a satisfactory indirect reply: (and saved me from a rant about "the individual's choice")

The preschool obviously isn't forcing kids to be gender neutral. It is just being conscious of and compensating for the stereotype-reinforcing bent of society.

[Blue Diamond]

Hm...I talked about this once with Kvark on chat... i still think that Sweden has one of the best education in the world so everything they do is the best including this preschool...Hm...I won't change my mind about this for a long time though. No need to say thank though.

[sevenseas]

I wish there was a TV documentary about this, because then there'd be better information.

Same. I think one would need to see how the teachers behave about gender and the school's attitude towards it - not just the kinds of toys - to decide whether this was a bad or good idea.

Also, I think to really make an impact on gender prejudices it would need to involve almost total immersion in a gender-stereotype-free environment like this. The kids are still going to be growing up with stereotypes from family, friends, media, etc.

[WhatGhost]

The preschool obviously isn't forcing kids to be gender neutral. It is just being conscious of and compensating for the stereotype-reinforcing bent of society.

Oh, okay. In that case, it's cool.

[bromance]

If the parents wish to send their children to schools like that, fine. I myself was a pretty tomboyish girl growing up, but I'm perfectly aware that some little girls truly love Barbies and little boys trucks. Regardless, it's their parents' choice and I agree that mainstream institutions sometimes do (intentionally or not) force gender stereotypes.

[Raccoonwolf]

I think normal schools and kindergartens do force gender stereotypes.

For example, if a kid's not playing with the others, the teachers are likely to tell him/her "why don't you play with ____?" and they'll recommend kids of the same gender. I'm kind of sour about the fact I never hanged out with the boys in grammar school; nowadays I'm even shy around boys, even though I if anyone in my school am pushing forward gender-neutrality :/ And I think that is partly because I was encouraged to play with the girls in kindergarten. I didn't even get well along with them for god's sake! >:/

Also, a particular thing I hated, my elementary school teacker always asked "a few strong boys to carry this" for her. I was usually first in the line... =.=

[henshin]

If the parents wish to send their children to schools like that, fine. I myself was a pretty tomboyish girl growing up, but I'm perfectly aware that some little girls truly love Barbies and little boys trucks. Regardless, it's their parents' choice and I agree that mainstream institutions sometimes do (intentionally or not) force gender stereotypes.

Ok this is not just a reply to you but to a couple of people who are like, whatever, little girls will like princesses and little boys will like cars anyway.

It seems pretty obvious to me, and i'd guess anyone who isn't a gender essentialist, that usually children's preference for their own gender's stereotypical stuff is because of the fact that they have picked up from their parents, from the books the read, tv they watch and friends and teachers at school, that gender is pretty darn important and that they get praise and acceptance for going with it. If you get positive reinforcement for doing something, could be wearing a dress and having everyone say how pretty you look if you're a girl or something, then you're more likely to do it.

I mean its gonna be more complicated than that but I believ the general principle is sound. It'd be interesting to talk about this particular aspect of 'choice' though as its why I started studying psychology.

Anyway, it follows that the reason this pre-school is great is because by removing gender markers and treating children as though gender is unimportant, the child is less likely to become obsessed with 'gender appropriate' behaviour, clothes and toys. Hopefully this will allow children to find out who they are and what they like to do and wear, who they want to be friends with, etc. without the gender lens colouring every choice.

And so yes, I'm sure some children will want to play with toys that stereotypically match their gender but the instance of picking a doll to play with should be no more likely for a girl than a boy.

Obviously this school is one place and only a part of the children's lives, they will have to navigate gender outside of this school and so the experiment won't erase gender stereotpical behaviour as one might expect to see in a perfect genderless world.

god sorry if that's tl;dr

i need a smoke

[Dendritic Trees]

This is one of those good in theory tricky in practice things. Especially banning books. If you try and eliminate all signs of gender stereotypes you can end up stereotyping in reverse Ei. If you get rid of references to women being traditional housewives you can create the idea that there is something wrong with being a housewife, when in fact, you just wanted to convey that being a stay at home spouse/parent is one of many options open to both genders if circumstances (financial, social, etc) permit, but that no one should never be forced into or excluded from any career on the basis of gender.

Its the same problem with gender neutral pronouns etc, its easy to get so wrapped up in correct language, that you end up using the language as a mask over the underlying prejudices you never bothered to correct. Not being transgendered I'm not strictly speaking in a position to comment on gender pronouns because they work for me just find, but I'd much rather that children grew up understanding that gender is complex and fluid, and being respectful, so that people who weren't comfortable with the conventional pronouns could be comfortable enough to just correct others to use whatever pronoun for them that they wanted.

[Raccoonwolf]

Gender-neutral pronouns are nice. Finnish doesn't even have gender-specific pronouns. And it's not like languages can't develop; new words are born all the time. I admit adding a pronoun is much more difficult than some substantive, but it would make things a lot easier. I for one have a story about an androgyne that I can't translate to English because there are no words.

[bromance]

Ok this is not just a reply to you but to a couple of people who are like, whatever, little girls will like princesses and little boys will like cars anyway.

You made good points, but that's not what I meant at all. I guess I wasn't being clear enough, but what I was trying to say was that some people are inclined to conform to gender stereotypes, just as some aren't. I never intended to say that all of them would - but some will.

[sus]

'Gender-neutral' pre-school accused of mind control

Staff at Swedish kindergarten told not to refer to children as 'him' or 'her' to avoid stereotyping

"At the Egalia pre-school, staff avoid using words such as "him" or "her" and address the 33 youngsters as "friends" rather than girls and boys. From the colour and placement of toys to the choice of books, every detail is planned to make sure the children are not exposed to sexual stereotypes...Many pre-schools have hired "gender pedagogues" to help staff identify language and behaviour that risk reinforcing stereotypes. Some parents, however, worry that things have gone too far. An obsession with obliterating gender roles, they say, could make the children confused and ill-prepared to face the world outside kindergarten".

For the full article go to: http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/july2011/wn1955.html and scroll down.

I personally think that it's a step forward in education, since an environment that fosters tolerance of various genders-and non-genders- and avoids stereotypes might give children a better understanding of different forms of expression and opens up new possibilities of being. I wonder whether pre-school is the right type of place to discuss gender and sexuality (as these concepts are very complex and might confuse a child), however, by using gender neutral dolls and other toys, and by avoiding the association between a certain action and a 'gender-behaviour/role' more is done to protect children from being labelled at a young age with gender, sexuality, and the need to perform certain roles. Children should have the opportunity to remain open-minded about these things and not be affected by adults' perception of what is right/wrong in terms of gender. The symbols of gender and sexuality (pink for girls, blue for boys/dolls and prams for girls/trucks and racecars for boys/other outdated notions) are often used to subconsciously construct and prolong the gender binary and create clear distinctions within males and females in society. It is a form of societal control and Neuro-linguistic programming that promotes the status quo. Children should not be subject to this, especially as they do not have the capacity to form objective opinions at a young age. Just as one's religion should be one's own choice (the choice which is made after one has the cognitive abilities to decide on what religious or non-religious path to follow), so gender should be formed when one is ready for it. I believe gender is a choice, it is not assigned at birth; it also has the ability to change and evolve.

Note: Please excuse my long and perhaps messy post and the fact that I have strong opinions and emotions regarding this topic.

[tk218]

yes to no gender stereotypes the world would be a better place and kids could grow up to be who ever they wanted to be.

[Salmacis]

I completely agree that the instilling of gender stereotypes is something that needs to stop - I've been working in a primary school recently, and when a little boy expressed interest in playing with a doll, many of the staff present began sniggering. I wholeheartedly agree that children should be encouraged to wear/do/play with whatever they want to, regardless of their sex, (well, within reason - i.e. not chainsaws).

Language, however, is where things become far more complex. Fundamentally, the phrase 'gender pronouns' is very misleading, since such pronouns - 'he'/'she' etc - do not denote a person's gender at all, but only their biological sex. I am pan-gendered, but I take no issue with people referring to me as 'she' or 'her', because when they do so, they are merely referring to the fact that I have a female body - they're not saying anything about my gender. Likewise, if I refer to someone who is biologically male as 'him' or 'he', the only information I am factoring in here in order to individuate this person, is precisely that - the information that he happens to be male-bodied; I am making no assumption whatsoever about his gender, since gender and sex are not the same, and you cannot discern someone's gender identity from merely observing their biological sex.

I understand, however, that this only applies in theory, and in reality people do have a tendency to leap from observing a person's sex to creating stereotypical notions regarding their gender identity. Ideally, I think, education regarding gender is something that needs to be brought out of its current dark corner of the controversy-cupboard; people need to be informed about what gender really is - think how many thousands of people there are out there who unknowingly assume cis-gendered identities for themselves because they simply do not know what gender really is! (Similar to all those asexual people - myself included at one time - who just assumed they were heterosexual because they were un-informed about asexuality). If people understood the difference between sex and gender, then using sex-differentiative pronouns like 'he' and 'she' would not cause anyone to formulate assumptions about a person's gender, and so the drastic step that this school is taking - namely, abolishing sex-differentiative pronouns entirely, would be unnecessary.

However, I can see why the school has taken such extreme measures. Realistically, I doubt understanding and acceptance of gender are things that will ever become the norm. My faith in the human race is... wavering... to say the least. .

But - do you really think gender is a choice? I did not choose to be pan-gendered. It was just something I discovered about myself after realising that, despite being female-bodied, I wasn't a woman inside.

[corvalis]

I think it's a waste of time, honestly.

There are inherent differences between the sexes, and while you can certainly change society's expectations of what defines males and females somewhat, you can never erase it. You can't undo biology with social conditioning.

[sus]

But - do you really think gender is a choice? I did not choose to be pan-gendered. It was just something I discovered about myself after realising that, despite being female-bodied, I wasn't a woman inside.

I think gender is pretty arbitrary and I like the idea of it being fluid and not necessarily easily defined.

I think gender is a choice in that we can choose (to a certain extent) how we define ourselves. Gender, to me, exists mostly in the head (philosophical/theoretical concept) and is then applied to the body (looks, actions).

(But am still trying to make sense of this and other things)

[Raccoonwolf]

I think it's a waste of time, honestly.

There are inherent differences between the sexes, and while you can certainly change society's expectations of what defines males and females somewhat, you can never erase it. You can't undo biology with social conditioning.

Isn't changing the society's expectations just what they're trying to accomplish? The objective isn't to demolish gender, but to get rid of the stereotypes and prejustices related to one's sex.

I think boys choosing to play with cars in a world where no one expects them to do so because they happen to have a penis is better than the same in a world where they're told to do so because they're male.

[Monahan]

I think they have good intentions, but that it's a little extreme, especially the book banning.

I'm on the fence about the book banning.

On the one hand, reading should be encouraged.

HOWEVER, Cinderella and Snow White teach very _Bad_ lessons to girls: that they should sit and wait for someone to come rescue them instead of rescuing themselves, or being the hero themselves. I don't think little kids should be exposed to those lessons.

So I'd say that the school gets my Yea vote. Children - no, ALL PEOPLE should be expected to behave in ways that promote and improve society as a whole. And these rules should be applied equally.

Physical Assault isn't the answer. You can't slap the stupid out of someone. -- I recall hearing a bunch of news a few years back that girls are getting into fist fights a lot more than they have in the past. The source of this said it was due to gender equality taking root. I'm not so sure. I think it's bad parenting.

I believe Suzie can be a construction worker if she wants and Timmy can be a hair stylist. Why does our meatsack equipment and what we do with it matter so much to everyone? Its like they can't find anything better to spend mental energy on than worrying about who you are and aren't sleeping with.

[corvalis]

Does Cinderella really teach that, though? I grew up with fairy tales like that, and I certainly don't expect some knight in shining armor to save me, nor do I think other girls do. I think the stories are harmless in isolation. It'd be one thing if we were constantly affirming, "yeah, girls can't do anything" in our culture, which I don't think we do anymore. Some people might vehemently disagree, but that's my two cents on the matter.

[Drurowin]

It's a good idea to /promote/ gender neutrality, but doing stuff like banning books instead of just making sure the _STAFF_ create a neutral (genderly) social environment seems way over the top. Kids will undoubtedly pick up gender stereotypes and such from other places, so the people they _RESPECT_ should promote the neutrality, not hide it. Hiding something will not make it go away.

[Batman's Ace]

Great intentions, but it comes off as ridiculous. Adults are really into this, but honestly, kids that age don't care. I played with the toy animals in preschool. And big playground balls. And we had picnics. Nobody, at that age, cares about the difference, except the parents. Getting a little older, everybody liked those little snap beads, and LEGO, and nobody cared whether I played with them--but I still always called boys "he" and girls "she" and it was no big deal. People are people first--but some girls will like pretending to be the princess and some boys will like pretending to be the knight, and preventing them is an invalidation of who they are. Rejecting stereotypes is more important as the kids get older.

I guess I figure there are other ways to avoid stereotypes. Considering people like Elvis (really, straight guys can like pretty clothes. It's okay), or this guy I know who owned a quilt store, or another guy who's got long hair and plays the flute. I'm all for requiring that boys and girls treat each other with respect and play nicely, but banning all gender doesn't make any sense for the age group, or for any age group. How about we encourage these people who are people first to be open, instead of closing something off?

EDIT: I just had to when I saw this.

Cinderella and Snow White teach very _Bad_ lessons to girls: that they should sit and wait for someone to come rescue them instead of rescuing themselves, or being the hero themselves. I don't think little kids should be exposed to those lessons.

I cracked up. Cinderella: a woman with an evil stepmother meets a prince, disappears, and is found with the help of a magic shoe. The gal does an awful lot of skipping about to be said to be sitting and waiting for a rescue. The prince sure don't come to her first off. She hooks him. And it's the fairy godmother who acts as matchmaker, so it's arguable that she's the one to provide the rescue.

Snow White: another woman with an evil stepmother (golly, what's with this?) runs away and lives with seven dwarfs. She eats something a stranger gave her, and a prince saves her. That one he's the rescue, but I was more focused on the fact that she moronically takes food from a stranger. She shouldn't have been talking to strangers!

A lot of popular fairytales are like that. And the princes are usually shallow idiots who are peripheral to the story. We're supposed to care about the princesses, in most of them, and there is an emphasis on good character (like that one with the gold and the pitch). And the wild and magical situations, like seven-league boots and evil witches.

[Gho St Ory Qwan]

as a wild tomboy kid, i wanted to be a boy up until a year or two ago (i'm nearly 19 now) identifying with masculinity was important to me, and i needed that, without the prejudice that went with it.

so i'm all in support, but i dont think they should stop enforce only gender neutrality, but encorporating the entire spectrum in between as part of the education.

however, i do very much approve of the abolishment of cinderella :lol: why are there no boy stories like that other that fucking prince charming? or any girl stories that isnt snow white?

i pity the kids that will get lynched by meat headed brat kids who persecute anyone smaller of different than them simply because a girl acts like a BOY or a boy acts like a GIRL. POOH!! i can surely live without that! :lol:

Same I think I'd have been more content with myself if I could be more of a 'boy' without it being a problem to others. That said I didn't have too mcuh trouble from schools or anything, but being banished from certain games due to the fact my genitalia was probably different was a bit of a piss take for me as a kid.

That school wouldn't allow that haha

I think the aim is to educate the kids and I think this is a new approach to educate them on equality. What they want to do or how they identify outside of there is fine, and their parents can dress them how they want and give them the toys they want. But this environment would tell them that really there is little difference between the kids so they're not entertaining any notion there's a huge difference.

Kids will see these traditional fairy tales and gendered toys outside of the school, but I don't think it's necessary to have it in the school.

If your kid is genderqueer, it might be a good environment for them. Especially those who think theyre trans but it turns out they're not. I think those kinds (I'm sort of in this group now that I think about it) just needed people to let them know that there isn't really a huge difference between genders so they don't need to feel the need to pick sides. >_<

The only thing is, kids at that age don't care about gender identity much normally and by what I remember it isn't really forced on them yet anyway. Some of it seems really good for a solid foundation of gender equality and understanding I think. It would probably be more effective later on in life, in some way.

I would have loved to have gone there myself though.