Pleasure?

[Kai]

Just interested, how do people feel about pleasure? It is a requirement? A bonus? A sin? And what exactly is it? Does your opinion of pleasure relate to your sexuality?

I was taught as a child that pleasure was a bad thing. But obviously now I've reached an age where I realise not everything can be split into 'good and bad.' Yet for some reason it still feels 'wrong' for me to be happy and 'right' to be - not miserable exactly - but calm. Pure. Emotionless. Or perhaps verging on melancholy. Like the faces of angels you see in a church. That feels 'right.' Pleasure, for me, is like an imbalance. Too much. I guess, out of control. Which is possibly one of the many reasons I am asexual. I don't seek pleasure - in fact I try to avoid it if anything. I also tend to feel embarrassed if I am seen to be enjoying myself - kind of guilty that I should be doing something more productive. So I rarely say 'I enjoy something' - I replace it with 'I am interested in something.' And for the large part I find that this is true. Even though my life is obsessed with and dedicated to the arts, I wouldn't honestly say I get pleasure out of doing a painting or whatever. It feels...more like an exploration or an analysis of a concept/feeling/vision etc. Like I am pursuing knowledge and understanding rather than happiness. Either that or I do it out of some psychological compulsion, or to record things (like dreams) to look back on at a later date.

But is that a form of pleasure in itself? I don't know. Maybe there are different forms - like, mental, physical, spiritual etc. In which case, is sex the ultimate physical pleasure?? Perhaps it's just that that feels 'wrong' to me, not the concept of pleasure as a whole?

Any input welcome! :)

[Angelica Soprano]

I can't imagine who would teach you not to relish pleasure? Was this some religious repentence thing? Your post is sort of too vaugue to asses, without more information. Perhaps you can expand it?

[bbctv]

pleasure- i mean, if i'm eating food that tastes good as opposed to that which tastes bland, is that pleasure? it's a kind of vague word, but i'd say it's highly sexualized so i don't tend to use the word.

asceticism i think sort of goes back a long ways in many religious and philosophical traditions, but one thing i always ask is, Aren't there things someone can ENJOY doing that are ALSO productive? or is it that the moment someone sees a benefit to doing something they rule out that it's 'pleasure' and find another word, reserving pleasure for stuff that they see no tangible benefit in?

it's sort of how a friend of mine whose literary tastes are more towards genre fiction, getting a list of my reading said 'what do you read JUST FOR FUN?' as for me, i can't divide say, books i read because i find them INTERESTING from books i read FOR FUN. in fact, i find that i can only enjoy books i find interesting. i find i can't enjoy most genre fiction, action movies or comedies because i find them really banal. i mean, a lot of pretentious art school flicks i like i actually DO like to watch- as evidence, i've watched them over and over again. pleasure? i'd say so, but what's enjoyable is highly subjective.

i mean, i write but it isn't enjoyment, just something i feel like doing. same thing with getting exercise. i like the idea of doing it, but it isn't like every time i wake up early to head to the gym i'm thinking 'wow, what a blast!' at the same time, i'd rather do either than say, watch some idiotic action movie.

[Lordbob]

"Is it the fault of the rose, that it looks beautiful? Is it your fault, that you enjoy it? You cannot help pleasure. There is nothing wrong with it, unless that pleasure comes at the cost of another."

[AVENCakes]

I was taught as a child that pleasure was a bad thing. But obviously now I've reached an age where I realise not everything can be split into 'good and bad.' Yet for some reason it still feels 'wrong' for me to be happy and 'right' to be - not miserable exactly - but calm. Pure. Emotionless. Or perhaps verging on melancholy.

So you get pleasure from being 'melancholy'? ;)

If you mean sexual pleasure: Idon't get any, so I can't say. I think it's something that people put too much wait on, though.

Pleasure overall, it's a good thing. It's good to be happy and you can get pleasure from so many things. Hanging out with friends, a hobby, reminiscing while going through old junk, getting things done, feeling good about yourself. Pleasure isn't always a strong feeling, and it can go hand-in-hand with contentment. Some of the strongest pleasures a person is supposed to have in life is being a parent.

It's hard for me to do things I don't get some sort of "pleasure" out of. Even exercising, which hurts like a %$#@# and I'm still sore from yesterday I get the pleasure of knowing at some point I'll be healthier and maybe feel better about my body. It's also supposed to make it easier to get certain "plastic" surgeries that I plan on getting. When I'm not sore and realize I'm getting stronger, I feel pretty good about myself, too. When you do work that you need to do you get a certain pleasure in getting it done or getting praise for doing it well, too. If you never got any feeling of happiness from finishing, at some point you'd get too depressed or just quit.

You don't have to be overjoyed or anything, but even calm can be pleasurable. It's why people need to relax now and then when they have hectic schedules.

[spinneret]

I'm a very sensual person and I deeply enjoy good feelings and happiness, and I enjoy making others feel good too.

I can have some guilt issues when I don't feel I've deserved to feel good about something, but that's by no means constant and it's more feelings of inadequacy than internalized belief that the feeling is right/wrong or good/bad.

[Shadow girl]

A while back at a church a priest said that joy was good and pleasure was bad. Sounds like he had no idea what the heck he was talking about.

[waterbear]

I consider myself an anti-hedonist. In particular, it's very important to me that significant decisions be made independent of any pleasure/pain involved. That's not to say I don't make decisions based on pleasure/pain - e.g. if I have joint pain when exercising I'll stop. However in general I don't like making decisions based on pleasure/pain for the same reasons I don't like making decisions based on what's socially acceptable - I don't really think I'm the one making those decisions. If I'm acting per what I find pleasurable, I'm acting according to my largely preconfigured inner chimp, whom I don't really regard as "me" in the strict sense of the word. If I'm making a decision per what's socially acceptable then I'm acting according to the environment, in which case I see myself as little more than a puppet.

Also, I make a distinction between happiness opposed to pleasure. Examples of what I'd consider happiness to be would be the positiveness associated with completing a goal, figuring something out, aesthetics, etc.

[cijay]

Please is the ultimate in selfish gluttony. I mean, regardless of what your pleasure IS, it's done for you alone. Maybe WITH someone (dinner out, concerts, travel, shopping but it's done because it gives you that 'high'. I think people who feel too guilty to give into their pleasures think wayyy too highly of themselves. Join the rest of us on planet eath, man...jump in the mud, get dirty, feel the love, do whatever it takes to make you feel good!

I'm off to a magnolia bubble bath - bye.

[JervisGermane]

I don't think I experience the same feelings other people describe as pleasure. With me, it's like love in Klingon. I have things that feel "bad" and things that feel "not-bad." I try to avoid things that feel bad and do things that feel not-bad, but I'm not sure I've ever done anything that felt "good."

[bbctv]

A while back at a church a priest said that joy was good and pleasure was bad. Sounds like he had no idea what the heck he was talking about.

that commend reminds me of the daniel johnston song 'joy without pleasure.' (daniel johnston - a mentally ill man living in texas raised in a fundamentalist Christian household who makes music and art, in case anybody didn't know.)

[Kai]

I don't think I experience the same feelings other people describe as pleasure. With me, it's like love in Klingon. I have things that feel "bad" and things that feel "not-bad." I try to avoid things that feel bad and do things that feel not-bad, but I'm not sure I've ever done anything that felt "good."

Ha ha - yeah that's kind of what I mean.

These have all been some great replies - thank you! I think Shadow Girl highlighted the way I was brought up to view pleasure. Like the priest saying joy and pleasure are different things. I guess I saw 'pleasure' as linked only to self indulgence and sex. Sinning and all that. But I can see now that pleasure and joy are actually more similar than I thought. And also contentment. I like to feel content. Maybe it's just the social stigma attached to saying "I like to feel pleasure" that I doesn't agree with me.

I suppose also I don't actively pursue pleasurable activities. I don't see anything wrong with other people doing so - in fact, I think it's awesome that cijay can enjoy a magnolia bubble bath (as an example)! But I'd rather just go about my life and if I happen to 'not hate' or quite like doing something then I guess that's pretty cool.

A question then : is having a quick bath and feeling happy because you are clean a different kind of pleasure to having a bath and feeling happy because you used a luxurious body wash, put candles around the tub, allowed yourself the time to lie back and relax and also felt clean? (or something along those lines)

I know I also feel very uncomfortable with 'highs' - like it's not me or it's out of my control. I think that is uncommon...or certainly where I live anyway and for people of my age group who seem to be obsessed with 'getting high.' I don't know - maybe it's because they can't handle the lows? I suppose I am more familiar with 'lows' so I am more in control of them and they feel more natural. Perhaps I just haven't learnt to control highs yet so they feel rather daunting? Whereas to people who are used to going out and having fun, it's no big deal.

I am also very interested in waterbear's post. It made me research the word 'hedonism' and I have decided that, although I'm not against it in other people, I am definitely not a hedonist myself. So perhaps, even though I feel pleasure, I choose not to adopt a pleasurable lifestyle.

(Sorry if I am repeating myself here - just forming an argument in my head)!

"Is it the fault of the rose, that it looks beautiful? Is it your fault, that you enjoy it? You cannot help pleasure. There is nothing wrong with it, unless that pleasure comes at the cost of another."

That's true. Thanks!

Oh the pursuit of knowledge... Keep the replies coming, this is really useful! :)

Edit : Daniel Johnston....sounds interesting. Thanks - I will research him!

[AotoSora]

Some strange views here... I think it's unhealthy to think pleasure is wrong. But maybe I don't know what you guys mean by pleasure. I get pleasure every day from reading, studying languages, looking at and drawing pictures. I'm getting a ton of pleasure from the music I'm listening to right now... When the weather is beautiful and I go out on a walk, I enjoy that too. That's my "pleasurable lifestyle".

[AVENCakes]

Some strange views here... I think it's unhealthy to think pleasure is wrong. But maybe I don't know what you guys mean by pleasure. I get pleasure every day from reading, studying languages, looking at and drawing pictures. I'm getting a ton of pleasure from the music I'm listening to right now... When the weather is beautiful and I go out on a walk, I enjoy that too. That's my "pleasurable lifestyle".

some people think of it more as "sexual pleasure", so it tends to have those connotations. I think "flesh" is a sexualized word unless it's clearly gory, too.

But, yeah, pleasure=bad doesn't seem that good a mindset. I mean, if you seek out pleasure doing bad things, that's one thing, but you can get pleasure from doing things to keep yourself healthy and if you have to seek to not be experiencing pleasure, that seems a bit weird.