mixed relationship - communication question

[learning2bme]

60 yo female married 30+ years, 4 grown kids. I love my husband. He is fun, funny, good provider, great guy. My best friend. He loves me. Provides for me. Looks out for my happiness. Perfect marriage...EXCEPT he loves sex and intimacy and I cannot tolerate either. 

 

For decades I have tried to be a sexual human. I participated sometimes even initiated because I knew it would make him happy. And it did! I honestly thought that I would learn to be a sexual human. About 18 months ago, I found asexuality and BAM I found me. Liberating and gut wrenching. Came out to my husband. He was confused, shocked, not happy.  Eventually we had a few frank discussions and we talked about compromise.

He thinks it is working great. I am incredibly unhappy, uncomfortable. It is not working at all for me. I keep doing things that make me...(I don't know the word here - abused, crushed, uncomfortable etc). I feel like he should be able to read my body language that I do not want to participate - but maybe that is an unfair assumption. I think it is unfair to both of us that I am continuing sexual stuff I do not want.

Question. I am ready for a discussion explaining that I cannot go on with what we are doing. I need a sex free environment. I write that and I just feel so sad for him. I don't want him to live without sex. Sex makes him happy and it makes him feel so good and he deserves that! (We discussed seeking this outside the marriage but it is an emotional/sexual connection not just sex act so that is not an option). But I also deserve to be free of it. HOW can I make this discussion palatable for him? I feel I should take the blame for "changing" everything, sort of like bait and switch. But in a way I don't want to make it about me, if that makes sense. I welcome your input!  

[Sarah-Sylvia]

Hey @learning2bme
Did you mean to post in this section to get answers from sexual partners?

 

It sounds like you know what it's time to talk about. You've had enough with sex and you're able to set that boundary if you want, you might have to be firm about it. But yes it could be hard on him. I don't think there's a way to make it palatable, or even if you manage to it would dawn on him over time that he's missing something that might be important to him. You can try to focus on how you feel without having to blame anyone, it just is how it is, you've realized things and changed, or some things built up to the point that you don't want to involve yourself in sexuality. That's a big one for sure, it'll cause ripples in the relationship but if you know that this is what you want for yourself then it has to be said. Maybe you can also add something that makes it feel like you want to be there for him aside from sexuality, so hopefully he doesn't feel alone in this

[Olallieberry]

Sexual partner here.

 

I don't know how (in what way) this is going to hit him, but basically everything you can do to make clear that it's not about him personally, it's just any and all sex - that would be a bit of a help. Not huge, but a little. You don't want to make it about you, but he has to feel like it's not about him too.

 

You titled your topic "communication" and that's another huge point for us to discuss here: I don't know whether your husband is likely or capable to receive it that way. Will he believe you, that it's not personal and it's just sex you reject? Does he have triggers which make him not hear what's being said, or which make him act out in an emotionally unregulated manner? Do both of you have the skills to communicate and hear each other? It would be too bad if the discussion triggers unreasonable and irrational reflex arguments. There are things a couple can do, and each individual can do, to improve the ability to communicate without it devolving into toxic and unproductive back-and-forth.

 

Communication wise, that right there is probably far, far more important than the specific content of the communication. There's no magic phrase which is going to make it sink in or make it be received the way you want, because there's no magic way for you to control his emotions. He's going to have them. Are they going to impede the communication by becoming his whole experience? Or, is he capable of living with them while participating constructively in the discussion? 

 

Regarding getting sex outside the marriage: You said that it's not an option because it's "not just sex," it's an emotional connection too. Which of you did that objection come from? I couldn't tell if what you meant by that is that you're threatened by the possibility that he would catch feelings for an extramarital sex partner, or if you meant he rejected the idea of going outside because emotionally empty casual sex wouldn't satisfy him. At any rate, there is a lot of ground to cover there because there are so many different ways extramarital sex could happen. They don't all carry the same risks, the same benefits, and the same emotional content. It might be worth talking about this more because there have to be ways to do it which don't carry the same threats, or a willingness to do it even if it's not perfect, or a willingness to learn how polyamorous people become willing and able to handle the threatening feelings, or - there are just so many different possibilities that I feel like it would be worth considering extramarital sex from many different angles to see if there's any way to find some potential there.

 

Speaking for myself, the reason I wanted to talk to my wife about extramarital sex wasn't because I don't love her, it was because I do. It remains to be seen whether we'll find a way to stay married over the long run, with or without ENM*.

 

Anyway, the "emotional connection" part might be worth thinking about, too. If it's the case that he doesn't want extramarital sex because it wouldn't be with someone he loves, in other words if emotionally empty sex is unpalatable to him, then show him the massive conflict between what he thinks he's getting with you and what is actually happening between you two when you're incredibly unhappy and uncomfortable. I stopped having sex with my wife, even the compromise sex she was willing and unconflicted about providing, because I couldn't stand the emptiness of it. I don't know if the need for emotional connection and mutual sexual give-and-take during sex is what your husband is craving, but he's sure not getting it with you and I wonder whether he's even aware of that. If he were, would he still want the compromise sex he thinks has been going so great with you? Or does he only care about you "servicing" him regardless of how you feel? I do know (because you said so) that you've been concealing your unhappiness and discomfort about that, so, your being honest about that could dramatically change his perception of the sex he's been having with you. Hopefully in a way which influences his choices about whether to even continue to ask it of you.

 

My own wife was very clear about what she felt in regards to different sexual compromises we tried, and I'm so glad she was. I'm still not happy that we basically have a completely sexless marriage, but at least we don't have unspoken same-page conflicts and a hidden sense of unwelcome pressure.

 

I don't know what your husband is like though. I would tend to think you're right and he should be reading your feelings, your body language, and that sort of thing. When my wife's not into something or not fired up or not comfortable about what's happening, I can tell, and when I can tell, it wrecks my appetite for whatever the the compromise activity is at the moment. The feeling of using an unenthusiastic partner is just so gross to me. So I don't know if your husband has the same capability to connect to your feelings with his senses instead of having to be told, or whether he would even care or instead just feel entitled to some sex anyway, but either way, talking about this stuff out loud is crucial. It isn't pleasant to feel gross about the sexual compromise my asexual partner offers, which is why I have just quit lately, but I'd rather know than not-know what her feelings are.

 

* Ethical (informed, permissive) Non-Monogamy

[tragiclover]

Compromise only works if both of you willingly want it and even then it is tricky. It is too easy to make assumptions about how well it is working for the other person.
Don't assume you understand his sexuality any more than he understands your asexuality. You say he is happy with the compromise, but do you know that? For a sexual, being allowed to have sex may help in some ways, but it can also hurt knowing that the other person doesn't need or want it. As you said, it isn't just about the physical for him, it is also about the emotional. It is part of loving a person.

It is clear that this compromise isn't working for you and you need to tell him that. My best advise is that you encourage him to find another sexual partner. He will naturally tell you, as he already has,  that it won't work for him. But part of that is because he doesn't want to hurt you. It is very hard for a sexual to accept that sex doesn't matter to you that way. Telling him that sex with you is over, is also telling him that his sex life is over. It is crushing thing, just like continuing with sex is crushing you right now. You feel trapped into a life you don't want. So make it very clear when you do this, that he is not trapped. Though he can't have sex with you , he could have sex with someone else if he chooses.

It may not work for him at all, but you are giving him a choice, and if he doesn't choose it, that's up to him, just like your choice is up to you.

 

[Sally]

5 hours ago, learning2bme said:

I don't want him to live without sex. Sex makes him happy and it makes him feel so good and he deserves that!

Think about those statements in relation to yourself:  No sex would make you happy.  You don't want to live with sex.  You deserve to be happy.

 

You have had sex to make your husband happy for many years.  Isn't it time for you to be happy?  

 

[Traveler40]

4 hours ago, tragiclover said:

Compromise only works if both of you willingly want it and even then it is tricky

I don’t think this is true. Many times it’s an agreement on the least crappy option. Neither willingly want the compromise, yet both need the best crappy option for other things about their lives to work. 
 

Compromise comes to quite a few of us late in the game. The paltry choices we have suck at best. Acceptance doesn’t equate to “willingly want” in my mind or experience.

 

My husband would willingly want me to accept a life of celibacy and simplify his life and feelings. I never dreamed of this particular arrangement as a life goal when younger. We do what we must as a best hopeful outcome of sorts. 
 

As to the OP, the options are what they are. If you play for his celibacy having removed compromise from the game, that leaves him holding the divorce and/or ENM cards.  Tough choice and been there. My best advice is communicate and explore all of the options more than once together across time. It’s all you’ve got.

[Sally]

53 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

My husband would willingly want me to accept a life of celibacy and simplify his life and feelings.

Just as you would probably willingly want him to accept a life of mutually-desired sex and simplify your life and feelings.   Who doesn't want their life and feelings simplified?  

[Traveler40]

9 minutes ago, Sally said:

Just as you would probably willingly want him to accept a life of mutually-desired sex and simplify your life and feelings.   Who doesn't want their life and feelings simplified?  

Both false and overly simplified. 

[Sally]

9 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

Both false and overly simplified. 

Which?   That a sexual would be happier if the asexual wanted sex?   I can't imagine that being false.

[tragiclover]

35 minutes ago, Traveler40 said:

I don’t think this is true. Many times it’s an agreement on the least crappy option. Neither willingly want the compromise, yet both need the best crappy option for other things about their lives to work.

I'll agree with you on that. It is more like both sides have to accept the compromise and want to make it work. A compromise, by definition, is not what either side wants. It is just something you can agree to try. I'd also agree that the choices aren't great.

[Traveler40]

44 minutes ago, Sally said:

Which?   That a sexual would be happier if the asexual wanted sex?   I can't imagine that being false.

The assumption made as I read your words was that I would be happier if he wanted sex which is false.
 

The repulsion I feel to even type that is complicated to describe. Many sexuals lose desire for sex with an ace partner once we realize they do not desire sex. In no scenario can I think of sex with my husband. 
 

I can’t imagine life without my lover and my husband would most likely willingly want to.
 

That was the point.

[learning2bme]

8 hours ago, Sally said:

Think about those statements in relation to yourself:  No sex would make you happy.  Isn't it time for you to be happy?  

 

Thank you...I needed to hear that. I know it's true but I also feel selfish. Thing is, if a friend sat down and told me my story as hers (or his) I would say what you said. Thank you

[learning2bme]

11 hours ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Hey @learning2bme
Did you mean to post in this section to get answers from sexual partners?

 

Maybe you can also add something that makes it feel like you want to be there for him aside from sexuality, so hopefully he doesn't feel alone in this

Thank you for your reply. I was not sure where to post, but I thought the sexual people might have a perspective I have not thought of.  

I will say that. I do want to be here for him. But I'm not sure how that would work for him...but I do want that!

[learning2bme]

10 hours ago, Ollie415 said:

Will he believe you,

THIS! We have discussed this several times. I don't think he can comprehend that a human couldn't like sensual activities. It's just so far fetched for him. He is a person who needs to digest info a little at a time. He has said the phrase "get over it" a few times when I reject a grope...in a way he is kidding, but it's a frustrated release that has meaning. 

 

[Traveler40]

2 hours ago, learning2bme said:

THIS! We have discussed this several times. I don't think he can comprehend that a human couldn't like sensual activities. It's just so far fetched for him. He is a person who needs to digest info a little at a time. He has said the phrase "get over it" a few times when I reject a grope...in a way he is kidding, but it's a frustrated release that has meaning. 

 

Send him here. He needs to understand to move forward. It took me years to fully get it on the backs of having lived it for years. No one can understand the way we do as the sexual partner of an ace. 
 

My lover was aware of asexuality given Morrissey in the 1980’s. Even after 6.5 years together, being the most thoughtful and intelligent person I know, listening to me and being a member of this family, he still doesn’t get it. 

[nanogretchen4]

There is no way to present no sex for the rest of his life that will be palatable to your husband. There is no amount of communication and no magical turn of phrase that will make an incompatibility of this magnitude go away. 

 

It may be that an amicable divorce is the best solution here. Being legally divorced plus living apart would probably help your husband to process the reality that you will never have sex with him again. The kids are grown anyway, so there are no custody issues. Your husband would then be free to pursue a sexual relationship, including emotional connection and commitment, if and when he is ready for a new relationship and is able to find someone compatible. It wouldn't be your problem anymore. You could probably still be friends, after a period when he will probably need space to recover and form new attachments. And above all you could have your own living space completely free from pressure to have unwanted sexual contact. 

[nanogretchen4]

While it can be difficult for sexual people to understand asexuality, I don't think understanding is ever really the main issue. 

 

It is not mandatory for your husband to understand your sexual orientation. It is far more important for him to believe you. And it is absolutely non-negotiable for him to take no for an answer, always, immediately, and without argument. Groping you without consent and telling you to "get over it" is absolutely unacceptable. Sorry, people don't get to process the word no a little at a time. I really think it would be so much better not to be living with someone who has done this multiple times.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

3 hours ago, learning2bme said:

Thank you for your reply. I was not sure where to post, but I thought the sexual people might have a perspective I have not thought of.  

I will say that. I do want to be here for him. But I'm not sure how that would work for him...but I do want that!

Being there for someone is an expression of offering support. Whatever feels good to both of you works :).

 

That includes with intimacy, whatever form it would take has to feel good to both of you too. (Like cuddling, etc)

 

[learning2bme]

4 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

It may be that an amicable divorce is the best solution here. Being legally divorced plus living apart would probably help your husband to process the reality that you will never have sex with him again. The kids are grown anyway, so there are no custody issues. Your husband would then be free to pursue a sexual relationship, including emotional connection and commitment, if and when he is ready for a new relationship and is able to find someone compatible. It wouldn't be your problem anymore. You could probably still be friends, after a period when he will probably need space to recover and form new attachments. And above all you could have your own living space completely free from pressure to have unwanted sexual contact. 

This is what I want. But I would really like for it to be a decision we come to together. I am not sure he will ever be ready for divorce. We have discussed it. It did not go over well. I am hoping this next talk will help him come closer to the idea of divorce. If not, I can/will pursue it. 

[learning2bme]

11 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Many sexuals lose desire for sex with an ace partner once we realize they do not desire sex.

I thought this might happen with my husband once we sat down and discussed compromise and what I did not want. He actually became overly affectionate...sensual not sexual. I swear he fell more in love with me and had more desire than ever (and I am NOT all that...LOL). I don't think I explained that the sex repulsion for me includes so much more than "sex" acts. Thank you for your replies. I actually think if my husband found a lover that satisfied that part of him...I might be able to be OK with. I don't know? He wont do it. Catholic. Another reason he does not want to discuss divorce. But I think that is unreasonable.  I do appreciate your time. I have read some of your posts/comments and I resonate with you...so thanks.

[learning2bme]

4 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

Send him here.

I have tried. I do know that he has researched a little because he brought up sex repulsion back in the beginning. I think he just can't believe that I basically faked our sex sessions. TBH I was acting and I knew if I was in charge (which he saw as me really wanting it) I could make it go quicker. Oh the whole thing is so sad. I feel like such a fraud but I really did think that I could learn to be OK with it. ugh.

[Olallieberry]

8 hours ago, learning2bme said:

He has said the phrase "get over it" a few times when I reject a grope...in a way he is kidding

In a way he is abusing

[Sally]

1 hour ago, learning2bme said:

TBH I was acting and I knew if I was in charge (which he saw as me really wanting it) I could make it go quicker. Oh the whole thing is so sad. I feel like such a fraud but I really did think that I could learn to be OK with it. ugh.

Oh yes indeed, so  many of us felt that.  

[Ceebs]

20 minutes ago, Ollie415 said:

In a way he is abusing

Uh, yeah. I'm sure he probably doesn't have genuinely ill intentions, he probably thinks he's being playful or whatever, but in this case it's just being crass and disrespectful. If I kept trying to do something to my partner that I knew he didn't like and that he repeatedly rejected, very best case scenario I'd be an insensitive jerk... but a better term would be 'abusive'. Sure it's not exactly the same level as forcing someone to have sex, screaming verbal abuse at them all the time, hitting or beating them, psychologically manipulating them, whatever, but trying to touch someone in a way they don't want and making a joke of saying 'get over it', knowingly disrespecting their boundaries, is abusive behaviour. Whether the person doing it thinks it is or not.

[learning2bme]

3 hours ago, Ceebs said:

knowingly disrespecting their boundaries, is abusive behaviour

Ugh, I dont want to type this. I do sort of wonder, when I leave and look back on our past couple of years, will I recognize abusive behavior.  I feel 'less than' in this relationship. 

[Lawrence]

Sex and intimacy are generally an expectation when most get married. It is a very big part of marriage and is often the glue that keeps a relationship strong and thriving. Suddenly sexually shutting down your spouse will be more than hurtful and challenging to him. But, you have sacrificed much over the years. Great effort on your part.

 

The huge difference between you and your husband in regard to sex and intimacy was likely unknown at the time you got married. Even after many years it is finally coming out. Your differences are valid reasons for divorce….even in the Catholic Church. Many think the Catholic Church is not big on sex and intimacy…..but, on the contrary…. they are big supporters of marital sex and intimacy and well know its value in marriage.

 

It is good you bring your differences up to him but expect a very challenging response and outcome. A divorce is justified but hopefully you both can give a little if you want the marriage to continue.

 

 

 

 

[Ceebs]

3 hours ago, learning2bme said:

I feel 'less than' in this relationship. 

I'm really sorry... feeling 'less than' someone is an awful feeling and certainly not ok. Whatever the incompatibilities in a relationship, one person feeling less than the other is kind of a whole thing on its own as well, a sign of an imbalance. If that's a feeling you have that's underlying the specifics of the sexual incompatibility and all the communication issues surrounding it, that's a clear indicator that being free of this relationship is pretty much vital. Doesn't mean your husband is a bad guy or that there isn't love between you of course, but when you feel like you're less than someone and seriously question whether there's anything abusive about the dynamic... yeah, time to listen to your instinct and prioritise your own wellbeing.

[learning2bme]

16 hours ago, Lawrence said:

It is a very big part of marriage and is often the glue that keeps a relationship strong and thriving.

We were at our best when the sex was good. I was so happy to make him happy. I wish I could continue. I really appreciate your perspective. I think because sex is so amazing for him, and that is normal and great...just not for me...I assume divorce is best for both of us. And I agree about the catholic view on sex. 

[learning2bme]

16 hours ago, Ceebs said:

time to listen to your instinct and prioritise your own wellbeing

I feel pathetic that I don't feel empowered to do this!! I am a role model for my kids and I would give them different advice than what I am living. BUT I am getting closer...thank you so much for your powerful words!!

[Olallieberry]

18 hours ago, Lawrence said:

It is a very big part of marriage

Well, some marriages. Maybe most marriages. Maybe, maybe not. I don't think there's very good data relating the quality or security of marriage to the quality, frequency or "importance" of sex in it.

 

The only reason I'm pointing this out is I think it's completely possible for someone for whom sex is not important to be in a marriage, a good one, where "the marriage" does not impose greater importance regarding sex upon such a person. It entirely depends on the partner, and I think the number of people out there who could be a better match is far greater than it appears.

 

The AVEN membership is definitely is not a good sample to estimate from, because the selection biases both for and against representation of healthy, happy low-sex-importance marriages are severe. A majority of us on both the sexual and asexual sides are here entirely because we're experiencing the negative consequences of a mis-match. There is a small minority of AVENites who at least appear to represent very good matches in relationships either without sex at all or else with the stakes of sex being very low.

 

There is very, very little in-between represented on AVEN, but out there in the rest of the general population, I think there's far, far more of the in-between than the extremes.

 

I'm convinced that an asexual person in a mis-matched marriage shouldn't be discouraged from imagining a second chance which might go a lot better than the previous one, and that a blanket statement like "it's a very big part of marriage" tends to be unnecessarily discouraging.

Here's to second chances 🍹