Phantom Dicks (insight into gender identity)

[Guest]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288633039_Phantom_penises_in_transsexuals_Evidence_of_an_innate_gender-specific_body_image_in_the_brain 

 

Abstract

 

"How the brain constructs one's inner sense of gender identity is poorly understood. On the other hand, the phenomenon of phantom sensations -the feeling of still having a body-part after amputation -has been much studied. Around 60% of men experience a phantom penis post-penectomy. As transsexuals report a mismatch between their inner gender identity and that of their body, we wondered what could be learnt from this regarding innate gender-specific body image. We surveyed male-to-female transsexuals regarding the incidence of phantoms post-gender reassignment surgery. Additionally, we asked female-to-male transsexuals if they had ever had the sensation of having a penis when there was not one physically there. In post-operative male-to-female transsexuals the incidence of phantom penises was significantly reduced at 30%. Remarkably, over 60% of female-to-male transsexuals also reported phantom penises. We explain the absence/presence of phantoms here by postulating a mismatch between the brain's hardwired gender-specific body image and the external somatic gender. Further studies along these lines may provide penetrating insights into the question of how nature and nurture interact to produce our brain-based body image."

 

 

[Philip027]

Quote

Further studies along these lines may provide penetrating insights

[Guest]

o wo

[Janus the Fox]

I’ve experienced a phantom sense of having lady parts and the disassociation like looking back in the mirror the seeing being a girl already.

[PoeciMeta]

That means I won't feel the parts I remove?

That'd be awesome! I want my parts gone already! 

[DanTheMemeMan]

Never had it happen to me as a trans man, but it sounds quite entreating. 

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

I honestly want to say that, same as with anything involving gender and psychology, there's got to be a bias from society as well though. When we're trying to be accepted as different genders to the ones we're assigned, it makes sense to think more than the average person about these things. Of course we also probably experience it differently to cis people though, not gonna say I don't imagine having a dick a lot. And I guess cis people wouldn't necessarily be able to imagine their bodies being different in the way we do. That can also be influenced by knowledge about what's possible through reading up about medical stuff though, like would I be able to imagine it if I hadn't read up about metoidioplasty/phallo? Idk.

 

Though also these studies don't tend to care what people like me are thinking(I'm autistic) xD like my imagination was a bit shit from the start and other stuff fucked my brain up early on.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

I just saw this post, and it ran a bell-- sure enough, just as I thought, this was something that V.S. Ramachandran wrote. I've read his books, such as Phantoms in the Brain and The Tell Tale Brain in seach of some answers for my own neurological difficulties caused by having endured 4 episodes of brain trauma. A lot of what he wrote correlated with my own feelings and experiences. But I never did find the anwers as to 'Why' and 'How did I get this way'?' It _was_, however, good to know that I wasn't just imagining all this. That makes it a little easier to accept even if it doesn't find me a resolution to my dilemma. It made sense that I was 'just wired that way' and I believe that it was that 'wring' that helped me to 'wire around' the damage caused by the strokes and injury. In one way, the plasticity was a blessing.

 

Maybe, sometimes, 'God writes straight with crooked lines' ?

[Adlena]

I saw earlier post and made me smile. I imagine having female bits sometimes instead of male ones I have...should be some kind of swop shop

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Adlena said:

I saw earlier post and made me smile. I imagine having female bits sometimes instead of male ones I have...should be some kind of swop shop

Haha well phantom limbs are far more than imagining. You pretty much hallucinate the feeling of the body part. Your nerves do respond to the idea of having it. 

[Adlena]

Absolutely. I was thinking more of the inner and outer gender mismatch feeling than the phantom limb 

[Andrea KF]

7 hours ago, KrysLost said:

Haha well phantom limbs are far more than imagining. You pretty much hallucinate the feeling of the body part. Your nerves do respond to the idea of having it. 

Phantoms limbs on transgenders is a new idea to me. But yes, of course...

Spoiler

I believe I've got a phantom vagina. Sometimes I can feel it stronger than any physical, "real" gentals.

 

[Guest]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:35 AM, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

I honestly want to say that, same as with anything involving gender and psychology, there's got to be a bias from society as well though. When we're trying to be accepted as different genders to the ones we're assigned, it makes sense to think more than the average person about these things. Of course we also probably experience it differently to cis people though, not gonna say I don't imagine having a dick a lot. And I guess cis people wouldn't necessarily be able to imagine their bodies being different in the way we do. That can also be influenced by knowledge about what's possible through reading up about medical stuff though, like would I be able to imagine it if I hadn't read up about metoidioplasty/phallo? Idk.

 

Though also these studies don't tend to care what people like me are thinking(I'm autistic) xD like my imagination was a bit shit from the start and other stuff fucked my brain up early on.

Phantom limbs are a lot more than just imagining though. I'm just saying it's evidence of neurological wiring rather than just some feeling that can be changed. Yea, there's so much cis people will never truly understand. Such as the exhausting fight to prove your existence and the over analyze of dysphoric feelings. Also, depersonalization. That's something I've had for years.

[Just Somebody]

It's interesting how the cells from our bodies (specially cells from the nervous and immunological systems) throughput the history of evolution developed the capability to recognize stuff as part of us, like other cells as their pals.

 

 

It's also interesting how errors happen, like when the cells from the immunological system erroneously doesn't recognize some of our cells as part of us and attacks them, what basically happens when someone has an autoimmune disease.

 

And even more interesting how the cells from our nervous systems doesn't recognize memories (that are manifestations of certain cell circuits connections) whether erroneously or because recognizing these memories (cell connections) as part of who we are (our personalities or identities) is too painful for handle and because we have neuropsychological defense mechanisms against feeling pain (it looks like that our human immunological systems have some kind of neuropsychological extentions) as based on interpretations of Freud's thoughts.

 

These lacks of recognition of memories as part of oneself seem to be what happenes in dissociative personality disorders when theres enough memories not recognized for them to be considered as and consitute together another personality/identity/self.

 

 

Changing subject... back to phantom limbs and body recognition and defense mechanisms, has anyone ever heard of the "rubber hand illusion experiment"? Check it out:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

 

 

[Bloc]

I don't have a phantom dick. The one I have is just too real. But I have experienced something like phantom breasts. When I am wearing a stuffed bra it is enough seeing or feeling that the bra is being touched by someone else or by myself and it feels like my breasts are touched.

[DuranDuranfan]

3 hours ago, Bloc said:

I don't have a phantom dick. The one I have is just too real. But I have experienced something like phantom breasts. When I am wearing a stuffed bra it is enough seeing or feeling that the bra is being touched by someone else or by myself and it feels like my breasts are touched.

I feel the same way whenever I’m wearing my packer.

[anisotrophic]

18 hours ago, KrysLost said:

a lot more than just imagining though. I'm just saying it's evidence of neurological wiring rather than just some feeling that can be changed

In the end, it’s all in our head, but our control over our brains is limited?

 

I guess I don’t spend much time imagining it; but I think if I did, I’d have developed a stronger ongoing sense of a phantom part. That’s how things work neurologically: use of a neural circuit reinforces it.

[PoeciMeta]

Personally, I tend to not feel my parts... I'm lucky that my breasts are small enough to be held in place easily, so unless I bump into a table or something, I almost don't feel their presence. It's similar with my lower parts. I like to think of that as reverse phantom limbs - they shouldn't be there, so my brain tries to ignore them. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

Personally, I tend to not feel my parts... I'm lucky that my breasts are small enough to be held in place easily, so unless I bump into a table or something, I almost don't feel their presence. It's similar with my lower parts. I like to think of that as reverse phantom limbs - they shouldn't be there, so my brain tries to ignore them. 

That's disassociation. I experienced that as well.

[Andrea KF]

10 hours ago, KrysLost said:

That's disassociation. I experienced that as well.

Another new word. Good thing I still learn something new every day😀

[Celyn: The Lutening]

20 hours ago, PoeciMeta said:

Personally, I tend to not feel my parts... I'm lucky that my breasts are small enough to be held in place easily, so unless I bump into a table or something, I almost don't feel their presence. It's similar with my lower parts. I like to think of that as reverse phantom limbs - they shouldn't be there, so my brain tries to ignore them. 

Likewise

[Albine]

IMHO I think it is a combination on factors the sense of loss your body goes through, nerves remapping and your psycho thoughts all  combine together.   If you had surgery your body and mind is going to take some time adjusting to the new or missing parts. I think it also happens to people who end up missing a limb or finger. 

 

Not sure if this is a valid example 

When I had breast enlargement surgery I went from a flat chest to having a sizable set, it took some time, (actually longer than I thought) to become accustom to allowing sufficient space so I would not bump them.  Eventually I got to the point where I did not have to "think" about allowing for more space it just came naturally  

[daveb]

This thread has not been active for a long time and is now being locked. If anyone would like to discuss this topic further, feel free to start a new thread about it.

 

DaveB

Gender Discussion mod