Sex Favorable Aces being told they're not Ace or Asexual

[Cheshire-Cat]

2 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

"Right now I feel like" is something quite drastically different from "I am, and don't invalidate meeee".

 

Case in point: Ever since I've gone on SSRI, I'm almost completely unable to feel romantically for someone. So, I feel technically like an aro. But I am not aro. If I'd go off my meds, I'd immediately express again what I am by nature: (hyper)romantic.

 

The people in your example may have felt straight, but they actually weren't straight. They misidentified; now they know better. If you "sometimes feel straight and sometimes feel gay", then you are neither; what you are is bi/pan. 

I agree it's different from saying that's what you are. But it's more to highlight that our desires aren't fixed. That's why we have things such as gray and bi. And I don't believe sexuality is ever a totally 100% fixed thing as we never know what, or who, might be around the corner.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Arodash said:

Sexual attraction - Seeing someone and not only finding them attractive, but thinking you'd like to have sex with them, like fantasies and such. It's attraction to another person that at it's end wants to be physically intimate, as opposed to being attracted to someone in a way where you think, "I'd like to get to know them" or "I want to be their best friend" or "I want to be close to that person".

Sexual desire - The desire to actually follow through with sexual attraction. I don't consider physiological reactions to be part of sexual desire, really, because in my case I know my body responds to sexual stimulus, the difference is that my mind isn't interested. So sexual desire is another mental thing, wanting actively to perform sexual acts with another person and believing that if you do you will feel gratified.

AVEN itself, in the General FAQ of this site, defines sexual attraction AS the desire for partnered sexual contact (I'd screencap it but I'm on my phone)

 

While sexual attraction can exist in other forms, when it comes to defining sexual orientation what's important is the desire for sexual contact and which gender/s you have that desire for. 

 

1 hour ago, Arodash said:

Seeing someone and not only finding them attractive, but thinking you'd like to have sex with them

 

Again, that whole 'seeing someone and wanting sex with them' is still REALLY offensive (as I've reiterated many times). It's a model of sexuality invented by asexuals and is based around the way teenage boys experience sexuality, pretty much. It's just not how it works for many people in the real world for many people. Human sexuality (and what defines our sexual orientation) is a lot more nuanced than this whole "seeing attractive people and wanting to have sex with them" falacy that keeps being bandied about here. 😕

 

49 minutes ago, Marlow1 said:

This chart that @Dawning has given us does help to simplify things. I recall that when I joined AVEN I found it all very confusing and a chart like this would have been helpful. I have noticed that some of you here still feel that this illustration is not correct. Do any of you have a chart that shows how you believe Asexuality and/or Greysexuality should be represented. 

 

Before I came to AVEN I had been to Hell and back trying to explain the he many things that had gone on for me. It was only when I arrived here that my world began to fall into place. But like I have said it was very difficult for me to get my head around many of the concepts shared here and a simple chart like this one really would have been useful

@Dawning seemed to have misinterpreted the chart though,

because they pretty much said "see this means asexuals can desire sex as long as they don't experience sexual attraction". But the chart then went on to define sexual attraction as "the desire for sexual contact with other people". That whole 'finding people sexy' thing is ridiculous because many asexuals can experience that kind of strong attraction to appearance, they just don't have a desire to actually connect sexually with others regardless of how attractive they can find them. It's the desire for sexual contact (for ones own pleasure) that's the only real important factor in determining whether one is ace or not.

 

1 hour ago, Iam9man said:

This is normally where we get stuck in a loop. We agree asexuals can enjoy but don’t desire sex, then I say sex-favourable asexuals can therefore choose to have sex occasionally, then I’m told choosing means they must desire it at some level so they’re not asexual?

Many asexuals *choose* to have sex, for many different reasons. That doesn't stop them from being ace.

 

But someone who enjoys sex to the extent they'd be sad without it, or would miss it in some way, and see it as an important part of their interaction with another person (even if that's just for the fun and pleasure of it) they're experiencing sexual attraction the way many, many sexual people all over the world experience it: A drive to have sex with another person solely because they enjoy sex.

 

An asexual will still always have a preference to NOT have partnered sex if possible, even if they can enjoy it. That's why they're ace. They might have a libido, might masturbate, might be able to enjoy the sensations of sex, might have sex for a number reasons (to try to keep their partner happy, to have a baby, to try to convince themselves they can want sex, all kinds of reasons) but if they had the ability to just never have sex again without that affecting their relationship or whatever, they'd be overjoyed by that and wouldn't be sad about the loss of sex in their life. If they experience anything other than that (as in, would actually be sad without sex) then they're suddenly no different from any other sexual person in the world. Millions upon millions of sexual people experience their sexuality just like that!! It's a pleasurable activity they can enjoy with certain people and they'd be a bit bummed out if they couldn't have it ever again.

 

Again, no one is arguing with the grey area here. It's just the term 'sex favourable asexual' that's the issue because everyone who tries to define that term goes on to define a normal sexual person's experience, then they use some warped, incorrect, offensive definition of sexual people to explain why 'sex favourable aces' are a thing. But if that experience is actually an ace one then people identifying as sex favourable ace can celebrate, because there are millions and millions and millions of aces out there in the world just like them. Much of the adult population is, in fact, asexual. Sure the term asexual has lost all meaning by that point, but at least... I don't know... at least people who enjoy sex enough to be unhappy without it now know that they're not alone? There are other people out there who enjoy sex that much too, lots of them! Yay! But RIP asexuality as a label that retains any actual meaning :c

[Sally]

52 minutes ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

I suppose saying asexuality can't be a spectrum is like saying sexuality can't be a spectrum. An ace end of the spectrum goes from nope never to very occasionally where a sexual would go from occasionally to heck yeah all the time please.

Nope.  An ace is an ace: they do not desire sex with another person, ever.   THEN you go into a SEXUAL spectrum, where you get all the multitudinous variations on how/how much/when/with whom the sexuals desire sex with another person.   

 

(apologies for the yelling)

[Iam9man]

13 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Many asexuals *choose* to have sex, for many different reasons. That doesn't stop them from being ace.

 

But someone who enjoys sex to the extent they'd be sad without it, or would miss it in some way, and see it as an important part of their interaction with another person (even if that's just for the fun and pleasure of it) they're experiencing sexual attraction the way many, many sexual people all over the world experience it: A drive to have sex with another person solely because they enjoy sex.

 

An asexual will still always have a preference to NOT have partnered sex if possible, even if they can enjoy it. That's why they're ace. They might have a libido, might masturbate, might be able to enjoy the sensations of sex, might have sex for a number reasons (to try to keep their partner happy, to have a baby, to try to convince themselves they can want sex, all kinds of reasons) but if they had the ability to just never have sex again without that affecting their relationship or whatever, they'd be overjoyed by that and wouldn't be sad about the loss of sex in their life.

👍👍👍

 

100% agree. We should get this pinned 😊

[Cheshire-Cat]

24 minutes ago, Sally said:

Nope.  An ace is an ace: they do not desire sex with another person, ever.   THEN you go into a SEXUAL spectrum, where you get all the multitudinous variations on how/how much/when/with whom the sexuals desire sex with another person.   

 

(apologies for the yelling)

I'm not saying asexuality itself as a label. I'm saying about that end of the (a)sexuality spectrum. But then I don't believe any label can ever be fully black and white because we're humans not robots.

[Sally]

7 minutes ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

I'm not saying asexuality itself as a label. I'm saying about that end of the (a)sexuality spectrum. But then I don't believe any label can ever be fully black and white because we're humans not robots.

This thread shows how many differences there are in beliefs about the "place" of asexuality.  I and some others believe it is a specific condition; you and some others believe it exists on a spectrum.  

[neverlove]

It’s not like sex repulsed and sex neutral asexuals are being robbed. Somehow most have the ability to share the label with each other by adding additional terms. Then we get to the romantic identities and still many people feel that they can share the label. Within these things their are two major constants, not seeking out sex and not feeling sexual attraction (leave it 😑

 

Flip side, people who can enjoy sexual sensation. Sex is sexy, it feels good, and even people who are sex repulsed are hardwired to enjoy it because their brains did not just magically go dead to endorphins and hormones. And this is an oh so scary thing to say because so many would rather be classified as

A-liens than admit their corporeal bodies give them the hypothetical capacity to enjoy sex (or maybe it’s the allosexuals who keep repeating this refrain)

So let’s come to the people who really like endorphins. They get them from each other walking down the street, looking at beautiful people on TV, maybe a whisper of indiscretion, or a fantastic dream. They crush, hard, and a touch that usually would be unwelcome is suddenly pleasant and desired from the person/s they adore. It is wonderful and horrible. They idolize it, they forbid it, create art to capture its essence and seclude themselves from its distraction—but they know it.

Then a small group of people, so very small, seems to miss a beat. Maybe they touch themselves, maybe someone else touches them, and it feels good, a sensation they like. Then other people begin to talk about wonderful sensations and they begin to nod along and think yes, I did like this when the conversation takes a turn and suddenly they feel lost. Then suddenly another person to the rescue says they are lost as well and they are not alone, except then time passes and even that last person is joining in the conversation too. Even then it’s okay, because you start to think, well that person wasn’t always that way, so it must be just a matter of time...but it isn’t. It hasn’t changed and you go from missing beats to missing whole songs. Enjoying some of the notes isn’t enough to make you a fan and you’re suddenly trying out different bands in the midst of your confusion...till you find the group for those without a band and you cheer! You climb on the no-band wagon and you find people that have only liked one or two songs ever and are even more encouraged! You say you like a quarter of most of the songs you hear, and suddenly the party is over. NO, that’s not possible, that means you either like the song or like a band. 

And that’s where you find us, hanging onto the “anti-band” wagon for dear life because it was the place we finally understood what was going on and people keep trying to shove us into a different category than the one WE ARE TRYING TO CREATE FOR OURSELVES or say we only get one of the f&@#ing visitors passes you hand out to the looky-loo music lovers because we’ve tapped our feet to half a beat before! We’re NOT TRYING to say we hate the whole song or are even ambivalent to the whole song—we know we aren’t, if we REALLY wanted to say we were exactly like you we would LIE and save ourselves the trouble. We JUST want to say we have never liked a whole song, but do like parts of songs. 

 

NOW! Can you DIG that cat?!

 

Sorry, not sorry for the text wall.

[Cheshire-Cat]

1 minute ago, Sally said:

This thread shows how many differences there are in beliefs about the "place" of asexuality.  I and some others believe it is a specific condition; you and some others believe it exists on a spectrum.  

Very much so. I'm quite happy for people not to agree with my view point. We all have different experiences and views of life. 

 

I call myself gray because I've previously enjoyed sexual experiences. But if I'm honest I've never overly enjoyed sex, and whilst I could say I've desired sex it's not been the sex itself but that feeling of someone actually giving a s*** about me. I had a very unhealthy relationship with sex when I was younger. I had mental health issues and an overwhelming desire to feel like someone cared. At the time sex was a gateway to that feeling because that was the part of myself I could give to get the desired effect of feeling cared for. I'm sure there are both people who class themselves as sexual, and others who class themselves as asexual, who have been through a similar period whilst trying to work out who they were. So, does the fact that my only real previous desire for sex has not been for the sex sex itself, make me sexual or asexual? I mean the last 'crush' I had had no sexual aspect to it in the slightest. 

 

I suppose without being inside the heads of others it's impossible really to say for certain because any descriptions are generally going to be lacking in some way and we very complex beings with many subtle nuances.

[Guest]

This should probably be the last comment I make in this thread because it's starting to negatively impact my work schedule, but I'd really appreciate it if everyone could please read this (even though it may be a little long) just because I think it's really pertinent and important to understanding why there's such an issue here. (also this isn't at you specifically @neverlove, your quotes are just useful for me in illustrating my points)  Please note I'm only talking about the 'sex favourable asexual' label here, not grey/demi etc.

 

3 hours ago, neverlove said:

Sex is sexy, it feels good, and even people who are sex repulsed are hardwired to enjoy it because their brains did not just magically go dead to endorphins and hormones.

It's this exact attitude that lead me to believe I was asexual in the first place (though my word for it for a long time was just 'broken' before I discovered the term 'asexual'). This is the EXACT attitude that has brought the vast majority of members to this community trying to find answers 😕 I understand you're just saying it's how sex-favourable asexuals feel, but I'm just trying to explain that it's this that drives many (the majority) of aces into this community in the first place trying to find answers, because they cannot relate to it on any level.

 

It's the automatic assumption perpetuated right throughout society that people have their brains hardwired to enjoy sex (just because many do) ...But then you get those on the outside who just... can't (even if for some of those people, the sensations may still be pleasurable). They may love romance, the kissing, the intimacy with another person, may even be able to find others very attractive etc.. But as soon as the actual sex starts it's like, everything stops making sense all of a sudden. It feels *wrong*. You were loving the intimacy and now suddenly your partner wants to break that intimacy with something that feels so alien, so strange, and they're telling you it's the highest expression of love. And society is telling you it's the highest expression of love.  And society is also saying that even if you're not in love, sex is still just a fun, pleasurable pastime that anyone can enjoy.  Everyone around you is telling you that everyone loves sex, it's biological, etc etc. You try to confide in others and they look at you baffled, like... what is WRONG with you?? how can you NOT love this?

 

This feeling isn't repulsion (that would make more sense to the person experiencing this).. but it just.. doesn't make sense to you (you being the person experiencing this). And you think you're the only one in the entire frikken world who feels this way and you feel terrified because you know that for you to be loved, you're going to have to make the sacrifice and do this thing you don't want because.. the whole damn world wants this. The whole damn world loves it. It's automatic for people to love and want this thing that's so alien to you.

 

Then.. when I finally learned about asexuality, and that there are romantic asexuals out there who can still love and desire intimacy, just without sex, I was so happy I cried. I bawled my frikken eyes out. Finally, after years of suffering and having finally resigned myself to permanent loneliness, I found a community that could accept me and understand me the way I was. And I found the potential for a romantic life that I'd given up on. 

 

So, one must understand how bizarre it is (and probably painful too for many aces) when you hear others in the ace community, who identify as asexual, explaining their love of sex in the exact same way sexual people on the outside always have. And acting just as casually about it as they do - like ''Come on guys, we all know brains are hardwired to enjoy sex.. So how can we NOT want to go at it even though we're sex repulsed? It's a given!" ...But that's WHY asexuals feel so frikken outcast for the most part. Because that 'given' just doesn't translate for them, it's alien.

 

Often people who identify as 'sex favourable ace' seem to have absolutely no comprehension of what it feels to be..well, ace, and to find sex frikken alien and wrong (even if you can enjoy the sensations and are NOT repulsed). Yet apparently these two people are the exact same sexual orientation????? Even though one can happily and pleasurably engage in sex to the extent they'd be sad without it (even if just a little bit sad) just like any other hetero/homo/bi/pansexual person ..And to the other, their life is more complete WITHOUT sex. They feel more WHOLE if they can freely go without sex. Not having sex with a romantic partner is what gives them a feeling of peace and happiness and comfort (as long as the partner is also okay with that ie if they're another asexual) and to have a fully asexual partner/happily sexless romantic relationship is pretty much a dream-come-true for romantic asexuals. Not because they're repulsed or sex-negative or anything, but because sex DOES NOT MAKE SENSE to them. It's ALIEN. It drives a RIFT into intimacy for them instead of heightening it, even if they are someone who can enjoy the feelings while it's happening.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, neverlove said:

And that’s where you find us, hanging onto the “anti-band” wagon for dear life because it was the place we finally understood what was going on and people keep trying to shove us into a different category than the one WE ARE TRYING TO CREATE FOR OURSELVES or say we only get one of the f&@#ing visitors passes you hand out to the looky-loo music lovers because we’ve tapped our feet to half a beat before! We’re NOT TRYING to say we hate the whole song or are even ambivalent to the whole song—we know we aren’t, if we REALLY wanted to say we were exactly like you we would LIE and save ourselves the trouble. We JUST want to say we have never liked a whole song, but do like parts of songs. 

 

Again (just to clarify) I'm not talking about greys but about the 'sex favourable asexual' label. It renders asexuality as a sexual orientation utterly meaningless because it's like a gay man who only desires sex with other men trying to argue with a man who says he's also gay but has no interest in having sex with men - he only desires sex with women. The second man is insisting that he's still  gay, and that the homosexual orientation is an umbrella that includes people like him too. He insists that the first man isn't being a 'gatekeeper' while he's actually just trying to explain what it feels like to be gay. While straight people are ALSO trying to tell the second man that what he's experiencing is heterosexuality because they experience it too, so they should know. And he's STILL telling them they don't really understand what straight means, and he knows better so he's still gay. 

 

This hypothetical gay/straight argument pretty much sums up what asexuality is, if asexuals can feel exactly the same way about sex as sexuals do (experiencing sexual desire/pleasure to the extent they'd be unhappy without it), but can also feel the way I did when I discovered the label (which is how most asexuals feel to some extent). It renders the label 'asexual' just as meaningless as if gay actually meant 'can desire with people of the same gender, or have no desire for sex with people of the same gender and only desire with people of a different gender'. I don't think the gay rights movement would have got very far if that was the definition of homosexuality 😕 

 

Everyone is still welcome in this community, even if like me (or @Serran or @CBC, or many others here) they actually found by accident a way for sexual intimacy to 'make sense' to them after years of believing they were ace. No one is saying anyone should be excluded from this community though. I've just seen far too often 'sex favourable' aces explaining sex in the exact same way that sexuals do while trying to justify that it's still an asexual experience because 'everyone likes it, they can't help it! our brains are designed to enjoy sex so what are we meant to do, just not have it?? That would take one of the pleasures away from life!!!'

 

3 hours ago, neverlove said:

 You say you like a quarter of most of the songs you hear, and suddenly the party is over. NO, that’s not possible, that means you either like the song or like a band. 

Most sexuals also don't experience the whole song in the way you're trying to explain it either. Or for those that do, it's often not all at once. They may experience different parts of the song, at different times, and enjoy those parts to varying degrees depending on a number of factors.. But they all have one thread, one musical note in common, and that note is: The ability (to some extent or another) to enjoy sex/sexual intimacy to the extent they'd miss it if they didn't have it.

 

 

(there's my musical note, heh)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SithLord]

2 hours ago, neverlove said:

Flip side, people who can enjoy sexual sensation. Sex is sexy, it feels good, and even people who are sex repulsed are hardwired to enjoy it because their brains did not just magically go dead to endorphins and hormones.

Can I just point out that I can't enjoy sexual sensation? Sex isn't sexy, it's gross. And no, it doesn't feel good. Did you know that biology is complicated? Many women can't get off on only penetrative sex and need more like stimulation of the clitorus or whatever? Some can't get pleasure from one or the other, and some (moi) can't get pleasure from either? It's like all my pleasure nerves got shut off down there. So no pleasure during sex. No masturbation because why would I? Nothing I've ever tried gives me sexual pleasure.

So no, I'm biologically wired to not enjoy sex. Call me an alien if you'd like, I call you ignorant.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

I love you @Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) #noanthro

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, sithgirlix said:

Can I just point out that I can't enjoy sexual sensation? Sex isn't sexy, it's gross. And no, it doesn't feel good. Did you know that biology is complicated? Many women can't get off on only penetrative sex and need more like stimulation of the clitorus or whatever? Some can't get pleasure from one or the other, and some (moi) can't get pleasure from either? It's like all my pleasure nerves got shut off down there. So no pleasure during sex. No masturbation because why would I? Nothing I've ever tried gives me sexual pleasure.

So no, I'm biologically wired to not enjoy sex. Call me an alien if you'd like, I call you ignorant.

Funny enough, I used to think I wasn't wired to enjoy it either. Sex and sexual touch felt about as pleasant as someone poking my tongue. Not painful, usually. Just not pleasurable either. And a bit weird and gross with all the fluids and stuff. I found what was missing for me was my mental / emotional arousal response that I didn't have without the desire for sexual connection with someone. Once I found that with someone, sex suddenly became really nice feeling and orgasm became a thing. 

 

Edit: And not saying you will ever enjoy it. Just... there is certainly a disconnect between those that have no desire at all and those that do. 

 

[neverlove]

30 minutes ago, Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?) said:

Again (just to clarify) I'm not talking about greys but about the 'sex favourable asexual' label. It renders asexuality as a sexual orientation utterly meaningless because it's like a gay man who only desires sex with other men trying to argue with a man who says he's also gay but has no interest in having sex with men - he only desires sex with women. The second man is insisting that he's still  gay, and that the homosexual orientation is an umbrella that includes people like him too. He insists that the first man isn't being a 'gatekeeper' while he's actually just trying to explain what it feels like to be gay. While straight people are ALSO trying to tell the second man that what he's experiencing is heterosexuality because they experience it too, so they should know. And he's STILL telling them they don't really understand what straight means, and he knows better so he's still gay. 

For clarification. I said we are hardwired to enjoy sex because of endorphins. If you stimulate that part of the brain everything still works because, as is often pointed out, asexuality is not a result of a hormonal imbalance. I think this fact is more proof that asexuals are not broken.

 

Okay. Let’s go with the gay analogy, but let me put it in a way I think actually mirrors the situation (based on my experience alone and is not meant to represent anyone in a similar position to me).

Two men are talking one is gay, the other may be straight or gay, non-binary, lesbian, cis woman it doesn’t really matter.

The gay man says to the other “sleeping with a woman ‘felt’ good”.

The second person replies, then you’re not gay, you’re bi”.

The gay man responds “but I never felt attracted to her”

”you’re bi”

”but I don’t like women the way all my straight friends do—I don’t like them at all!”

”so you’re a little different, but your bi”

”but I really feel that d is the best, love that stuff, it’s my jam! Can’t I say I’m gay but with the caveat that I don’t find sleeping with women the worst thing on earth!?”

”Nope”

”Can’t we compromise about this”

”No”

“Why do you get to decide 😡?”

”Because we know better and we said so”

[Guest]

Let me edit that for you, to be more accurate to the arguments...bolded parts mine. 

 

 

Two men are talking one is gay, the other may be straight or gay, non-binary, lesbian, cis woman it doesn’t really matter.

The gay man says to the other “sleeping with a woman ‘felt’ good and I would like to do it more and would miss it if I never did it again"

The second person replies, then you’re not gay, you’re bi”.

The gay man responds “but I never felt attracted to her”

”you’re bi”

”but I don’t like women the way all my straight friends do—I don’t like them at all!”

”so you’re a little different, but your bi”

”but I really feel that d is the best, love that stuff, it’s my jam! Can’t I say I’m gay but with the caveat that I don’t find sleeping with women the worst thing on earth!?”

”Nope”

”Can’t we compromise about this”

”No”

“Why do you get to decide 😡?”

”Because words have meaning and if you like both, you would be bi with a preference for men”

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Sally said:

This thread shows how many differences there are in beliefs about the "place" of asexuality.  I and some others believe it is a specific condition; you and some others believe it exists on a spectrum.  

Yeah. I think the spectrum thing is where most the disagreements come in. Sexuality is on a spectrum, assuredly. But, some see it as sexuality and asexuality having different spectrums. And then some see it as just sexuality is a spectrum, with ace on one end and sexual on the other, with grey in between the two for those who don't quite fit either end point. 

[neverlove]

Additional statement. 

 

Sex favorable cannot possibly invalidate asexuality as an identity, it exist, a large number of people acknowledge it exists, and the presence of sex favorable as a modifier both acknowledges and supports the identities of those who are sex neutral and repulsed. We literally have to explain those identities in order for ours to make sense. We’d probably all shut up and sit in our own little corner if people would acknowledge our existence and further say how it’s probably easier for us and how we are not the majority of asexuals. We still feel the alienation of mainstream sexual culture and the disconnect enough to find AVEN. There are enough of us here who talk about it and enough allosexuals who acknowledge we are not quite like them that it seems like people would acknowledge this is an identity because PEOPLE ARE IDENTIFYING WITH IT! We all acknowledge a fundamental difference, just stop saying we’re allo when we KNOW we’re not because some of us tried that and it DIDN’T WORK. I did NOT want to be a part of this club, but apparently membership was handed out at birth. F$&#

[neverlove]

14 minutes ago, Serran said:

and I would like to do it more and would miss it if I never did it again"

Haven’t done it once. Would miss feeling good, but if I had anything else that felt that good, like a really good vibrator, would take that instead.

14 minutes ago, Serran said:

”Because words have meaning and if you like both, you would be bi with a preference for men”

Still on the bit of NOT LIKING WOMEN! Doesn’t like women! Liked the sex, NOT THE WOMEN!

[Dawning]

I posted this on another thread, but I think it bears repeating:

 

I have to sadly agree that there is a problem with people coming to this forum and feeling like they have to justify who they are and what they identify as rather than receiving the support that they were hoping, and logically expecting, to get here. Some of these people are fragile, vulnerable, emotionally overwrought, terrified of coming out, or possibly have already come out and are dealing with ugly fallout, and the last thing that should be happening when they come to the biggest asexuality community in the world is to be attacked and argued with about their identity!

 

If we are ever to survive and move forward as a community, and to be accepted as having a valid orientation, we need to stick together, and present a strong united front, rather than attacking each other and splitting into even tinier factions. If we can't agree on even the most basic definitions, we should expect that any rational person in the allosexual world will view us as wackos and malcontents and special snowflakes, and that does NOT benefit us! And we are an US in this forum, the THEM is out there... or at least that's how it SHOULD be!

 

Gay, straight, and bisexual people don't have to adopt different labels based on whether or not they feel desire, so why should asexuals have that requirement? Conversely, if we try to make asexuality be about lack of sexual desire, we'll lose any basis we have for making asexuality a different sexual orientation; we'll go back to the days of being seen as just dysfunctional allosexual people.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, neverlove said:

Still on the bit of NOT LIKING WOMEN! Doesn’t like women! Liked the sex, NOT THE WOMEN!

He likes sex with women. The women are a required component. Liking sex with women is different than liking sex with men... It is, in fact, the entire essence behind orientation.

 

You don't have to care about the individual people. At all. Maybe you're a dude who's only into gloryholes. Can't even see or interact with the person. STILL GAY. 

[SithLord]

40 minutes ago, Serran said:

Funny enough, I used to think I wasn't wired to enjoy it either. Sex and sexual touch felt about as pleasant as someone poking my tongue. Not painful, usually. Just not pleasurable either. And a bit weird and gross with all the fluids and stuff. I found what was missing for me was my mental / emotional arousal response that I didn't have without the desire for sexual connection with someone. Once I found that with someone, sex suddenly became really nice feeling and orgasm became a thing. 

 

Edit: And not saying you will ever enjoy it. Just... there is certainly a disconnect between those that have no desire at all and those that do. 

 

I really hope one day I can enjoy sex. Then maybe my bf would stop feeling so guilty about needing it. 

[neverlove]

10 minutes ago, skullery said:

He likes sex with women. The women are a required component. Liking sex with women is different than liking sex with men... It is, in fact, the entire essence behind orientation.

 

You don't have to care about the individual people. At all. Maybe you're a dude who's only into gloryholes. Can't even see or interact with the person. STILL GAY. 

Actually a person who like glory holes might not be gay, it would depend on how he identifies. The women were not a required component. If the (alert)

blowjob was only good because he was closing his eyes...

 

You know what. I know this was the correct analogy phrasing for the asexual argument because WE’RE GOING IN THE SAME CIRCLES!

 

I’m now done. I’ve already had this discussion.  I’ve been on AVEN for less than a month and it’s already familiar—y’all need new material.

[Guest]

Just now, sithgirlix said:

I really hope one day I can enjoy sex. Then maybe my bf would stop feeling so guilty about needing it. 

I also couldn't enjoy it. And I still can't

 

 To clarify, I am unable to enjoy the sensations of having my genitals stimulated by another person in any way (another reason I HATE 'we are wired to enjoy sex' comments.. it's actually quite difficult for many women especially to just automatically enjoy sex!). But yeah, for me also it was a mental/emotional thing, as well as finding the right kinds of sex (ie kink), that I can enjoy without my genitals or even my libido having to be involved. That's how I found I wasn't ace. Sex was always just an alien thing to me until I met someone who I 'clicked' with on the right level, and who had no expectation of any kind of sex from me  Somehow, that made me open to exploring different things, and through that process I found some forms of sexual intimacy that I can enjoy enough to actively desire with another person if in a relationship with them.

 

I'd hope that someday you could enjoy it too, but that same time I hope even more that someday asexuals can have a way to be happy and content without having to have sex 😕 It's just so sad that many aces also have a romantic drive, and so end up falling in love with someone who will then end up feeling guilty for wanting sex and the ace feelings guilty for not wanting it, and everyone is guilty as a price for the love they have for each other Y_Y I wish there was an easier fix for all this!!!

 

11 minutes ago, neverlove said:

y’all need new material.

We are constantly being given 'new' material unfortunately, but its always new people reiterating the same old stuff over and over again that we then need to respond to. Many of us have been at this for years and are pretty frustrated that these offensive and incorrect ideas of what makes someone a 'normal' sexual person are still being perpetuated in the ace community to this day. We do it because we care about Visibility and Education, and believe it's important that this community be able to understand what 'normal sexuality' feels like (which will hopefully help give a better understanding of asexuality!). That's my aim anyway. Just sucks that it always has to get so upsetting for everyone on both sides Y_Y

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Dawning said:

Gay, straight, and bisexual people don't have to adopt different labels based on whether or not they feel desire

Of course they do.

 

if a man never feels desire to have sex with another man, and then calls himself gay, the reasonable reaction to him is "no, you're most definitely not gay. You're either straight or asexual."

[Dawning]

6 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Of course they do.

 

if a man never feels desire to have sex with another man, and then calls himself gay, the reasonable reaction to him is "no, you're most definitely not gay. You're either straight or asexual."

And his reasonable reaction to that would be, "Yes, I AM gay, because I'm attracted to men, which is the definition of gay." No one would tell a man who says that he's attracted to other men that he's not gay…  And no one should tell an asexual who is never attracted to any human being that they are not asexual.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, neverlove said:

Haven’t done it once. Would miss feeling good, but if I had anything else that felt that good, like a really good vibrator, would take that instead.

So preference = solo masturbation, not partnered sexual activity in 100% of cases from your own desire standpoint? Which, isn't really what anyone is talking about. If you have the option of partnered sexual activity or solo masturbation with no one else involved and 100% of the time you will take the solo masturbation, you don't even register in the arguments Pan and others are making. 

 

8 minutes ago, neverlove said:

Still on the bit of NOT LIKING WOMEN! Doesn’t like women! Liked the sex, NOT THE WOMEN!

If you like sex with women and choose it over sex with men or masturbation and kinda miss it when you never have it again...the women are the required component in liking the sex. So same thing. 

 

My Aunt ID'd as lesbian for 20 years. She still had interest in sex with men, but was attached, so didn't act on it. She got called out as not being lesbian by LGBT and straight communities. Now she is married to a man who is homophobic and she pretends to not like women, even though she still does like both. I mean, it's not like the gay community doesn't call a spade a spade... you go in declaring your gayness and still love sex with women, you are likely to meet exactly that convo, yeah. 

 

I am part of some LGBT communities because of my wife. They're totally OK with giving you a legit opinion on what orientation they think you fall under given a description of who you have desired sexual relationships with. And some are pretty quick to slam you for appropriating their label if you are just some straight girl who likes to kiss women at parties or something. There is none of this "If you say you are gay, nothing you do can make us question it" stuff. 

 

I'm never going to call myself ace again cause... I desire sex with my wife. It isn't a need. I am OK if one day our sexual relationship ends. I went into the relationship thinking no sex was ever going to happen. But, it's nice and I like it and I choose to do it for myself and my partner (we both ended up desiring it). So, my ace label went away with that development. Other people prefer to keep the label and have an "asexual sexually active relationship"... that's their choice, but it seems awfully odd to the outside world if two aces are banging each other all the time while declaring ace pride cause "sex feels nice" (that's why everyone does it...). 

 

And... honestly, I kind of refuse to use the ace label because I feel it would be totally unfair to aces who don't want sex. I've seen them leave AVEN feeling broken for being too non-sexual for asexuality. Like, seriously, that's messed up. Every social media post about aces not wanting sex ends up flooded with "BUT ACES CAN LOVE SEX TOO! THEY JUST AREN'T ATTRACTED TO ANYONE" and you have any idea how much that hurts aces who ID as ace because they don't want a sexual relationship? Being told hey, even for asexuality, you're broken! Yeah... no. I'm never doing that to an asexual person. I desire a sexual relationship for myself. That doesn't make me ace but sex favorable. That makes me sexual. And to use their label to cover my experience would just add to them feeling broken for not wanting it. I simply refuse to appropriate the label from those who need it to describe a vastly different experience. 

 

27 minutes ago, sithgirlix said:

I really hope one day I can enjoy sex. Then maybe my bf would stop feeling so guilty about needing it. 

Honestly. without a desire component, it's unlikely. And no amount of sex or my exes trying to make me like it worked. I had to actually feel desire for the person. And... silly as it sounds, that only happened when the person entered a relationship with me expecting sex to never be a thing.  Took the pressure off, made sex a nice surprise addition, not an obligation or expectation. 

[Guest]

As a gay who taught LGBT Studies and has been engaged in my community for over twenty years... 

 

Ya'll are nuts if you think anyone other than asexuals and closeted straight politicians try to separate "I just like sex with people who happen to have penises" from "gay." 

 

To be clear. No one in the gay community is buying your argument that you're not sexual and that the dude in the example isn't bi. Just fyi. 

[Guest]

Just now, Dawning said:

And his reasonable reaction to that would be, "Yes, I AM gay, because I'm attracted to men, which is the definition of gay." No one would tell a man who says that he's attracted to other men that he's not gay…  And no one should tell an asexual who is never attracted to any human being that they are not asexual.

Wrong. I, like many others, don't subscribe to that definition, and I most definitely won't validate said man in his confused ideas. He can call himself gay until he turns blue in the face... that still doesn't make it true.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, skullery said:

As a gay who taught LGBT Studies and has been engaged in my community for over twenty years... 

 

Ya'll are nuts if you think anyone other than asexuals and closeted straight politicians try to separate "I just like sex with people who happen to have penises" from "gay." 

 

To be clear. No one in the gay community is buying your argument that you're not sexual and that the dude in the example isn't bi. Just fyi. 

What? You mean the LGBT community doesn't follow the whole you are gay if you say you are, doesn't matter what else you do argument?  

 

Yeah, I have no idea where this LGBT communities are all big safe spaces that never question anyone idea comes from. None of the ones I've entered since getting married to a transwoman have been like that. Supportive? Sure. OK with you loving whoever you love? Pretty much. But, they aren't about to put up with you applying the gay label if you're a straight person and if you insist you're straight while having casual sex with all the same sex, they're gonna tell you to get out of the closet already and stop lying to yourself. I'm being encouraged to explore a potential bi side, but erm, if I said I was lesbian right now I would be questioned severely (and rightfully so)  

[Guest]

Just now, Serran said:

Yeah, I have no idea where this LGBT communities are all big safe spaces that never question anyone idea comes from. None of the ones I've entered since getting married to a transwoman have been like that. Supportive? Sure. OK with you loving whoever you love? Pretty much. But, they aren't about to put up with you applying the gay label if you're a straight person and if you insist you're straight while having casual sex with all the same sex, they're gonna tell you to get out of the closet already and stop lying to yourself. I'm being encouraged to explore a potential bi side, but erm, if I said I was lesbian right now I would be questioned severely (and rightfully so)  

When you spend a lifetime trying to find acceptance, you don't take it lightly when someone shits all over it by making your orientation a joke by grossly misapplying it as though it's meaningless. 

 

But yeah. LGBT community is not a "everyone is right about everything" space. 

[Dawning]

2 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Wrong. I, like many others, don't subscribe to that definition, and I most definitely won't validate said man in his confused ideas. He can call himself gay until he turns blue in the face... that still doesn't make it true.

If someone tells you that they are gay, are you saying that you question them as to whether or not they experience sexual desire as a condition as to whether or not you will accept them as gay? YOU get to decide whether or not someone is gay? Please go to the nearest leather bar and announce that you have this authority, LOL!!!!!!!!!

 

Remember; if you have the right to decide what someone else's sexual orientation is, that would mean that they in return have the right to decide what YOUR sexual orientation is. Good luck with that!