In conversation with my ace

[anamikanon]

Last few days, my ace and I have been conversing about the impact and meaning of his asexuality for us. Neither of us said anything new or that would come as a surprise to this forum, but somehow talking about it extensively and with attention at a time when neither of us were stressed by it made me feel more.... understood?

 

That sense of feeling understood is often very lacking for me. Since he isn't aware of sex at all, and now that I've stopped bringing it up, there seems to be no awareness on his part that this isn't actually what I call an ideal marriage. He sees our relationship as perfect, and even though intellectually he "gets" that I don't, he isn't aware of any lack. As far as he is concerned, our relationship has been fantastic for all this while - including the parts where I see him more as a companion than a life partner. He feels like he's my life partner, and how I see it doesn't seem to bother him.

 

One thing led to another and I was pretty upset and angry that he did not appear to recognize that as an asocial person sharing my life intimately on a day to day basis AND being denied unreserved intimacy holds any sacrifice on my part in terms of actually facing any difficulty. He said he realizes that I had to give up a lot, but didn't think it still bothered me. And I just totally lost it. Me losing interest in sex is because of the impossibility of a good sexual relationship. Doesn't mean it is easy to be faced with the lack of it on a day to day basis, etc. I just totally lost it.

 

But after I calmed, we talked of many things. I think it sort of worked to get both of us talking. Nothing new in what we talked, but in that space, he finally suddenly came to the realization that he literally got a free pass on all his promises on sex - many of them explicit after I was skeptical that he wanted it - or he wouldn't have felt like the relationship was okay at all, if I was expecting him to have sex regularly - as stated by him when committing to the relationship. I had not believed he was interested (he didn't act it!) and he repeatedly assured me that he wanted to be in a relationship with me and was just new to sex. He wanted more than friendship, he wanted to be permanently in our lives and home and he definitely wanted sex. Now he pretty much gets to do an about turn, because of course, there is no sex without mutual interest for me, while I nailed his hesitation right off the bat, got talked into the relationship and cared too much and am now in a relationship where I must sacrifice something important to keep the more important whole. He was very apologetic that he was completely insensitive to me having done anything of value at all toward his comfort in assuming that me losing interest in sex meant that neither of us was into sex anymore and problem solved.

 

He actually thought that since he was agreeable to offering sex and I wasn't taking him up on it, I could get my needs met when I wished, so this was a perfect situation for both. Talk of facepalm moment. Or should it be ACEpalm? Some days, the level of dumb an otherwise intelligent person can achieve about sex is mind boggling. Or perhaps he does not want to see.

 

May be petty of me, but I really needed to hear that. On some level, I was just getting furious at being taken for granted as the one doing all the compromise, as though I gave up nothing that mattered to me. Sure, I'm fine being QPR rather than kick him out of my life, but this is by no means my idea of a desirable relationship. Seeing me as a human being who didn't actually get what she wanted out of the mismatch, unlike him, but STILL accepted him would be a good start. He doesn't have to be grateful or anything like I did him a favor. I didn't. He's in my life because I want him in it, but him recognizing that I was severely compromising my idea of intimate space instead of imagining I was ace too was important to me. We don't have to do anything about it. Frankly, there isn't anything we can do. It is what it is, but no, it isn't perfect and no, it isn't easy. I may not be horny for him, but simply having him around and getting into bed every night is also a reminder of having neither my space to myself nor a partner I can be uninhibited with. So essentially, act sexless even if I am not.

 

Feeling much lighter now. Sometimes you just need to vent, I guess, and insist on being seen as a human being and your pain or sacrifice recognized.

[InProgress]

I don't really have any advice, but just wanted to say "I see you. And the pain you are feeling." You are not alone.

[Amy jones]

This sounds like something I would be posting 5 years from now if I am to stay with my (in denial) ace boyfriend. I feel your pain on all levels but perhaps not to your degree as I’ve only been with him for 1.5 years. 

 

[Amy jones]

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

 

That sense of feeling understood is often very lacking for me. Since he isn't aware of sex at all, and now that I've stopped bringing it up, there seems to be no awareness on his part that this isn't actually what I call an ideal marriage. He sees our relationship as perfect, and even though intellectually he "gets" that I don't, he isn't aware of any lack. As far as he is concerned, our relationship has been fantastic for all this while - including the parts where I see him more as a companion than a life partner. He feels like he's my life partner, and how I see it doesn't seem to bother him.

My goodness, I couldn’t put this thought into words but this is exactly how I feel. I question how he can go on day to day without feeling any type of discomfort knowing I feel a huge void in our relationship. That then leads to me feeling that he only cares about himself,  as that to me is the only logical way you can pretend that everything is fine and dandy. Which in turn leads to anger and resentment. 

 

It almost seems like we’re playing make believe. I just wanted to let you know I feel your pain! 

[InProgress]

9 minutes ago, Amy jones said:

This sounds like something I would be posting 5 years from now if I am to stay with my (in denial) ace boyfriend. I feel your pain on all levels but perhaps not to your degree as I’ve only been with him for 1.5 years. 

 

The longer it goes on, the harder it gets I think. My husband and I still aren't sure if he's really grey Ace or if it is just his very low testosterone (which we're currently waiting for an appointment with an endocrinologist about), but after 20+ years, we've both taken on our share of baggage. 

[Amy jones]

2 minutes ago, InProgress said:

The longer it goes on, the harder it gets I think. My husband and I still aren't sure if he's really grey Ace or if it is just his very low testosterone (which we're currently waiting for an appointment with an endocrinologist about), but after 20+ years, we've both taken on our share of baggage. 

I can see that, I don’t see it getting any easier. Is this his first time being evaluated medically? For your sake I hope there is some medical explanation.  

[InProgress]

14 minutes ago, Amy jones said:

I can see that, I don’t see it getting any easier. Is this his first time being evaluated medically? For your sake I hope there is some medical explanation.  

It is the first time for a medical evaluation, yes. One thing I have been really struggling with is wondering how did he let this go on for 20 some years and not get it checked (even though we had talked about it numerous times and I almost left him twice! Even moved out one of those times!) when he knew it was hurting me? 

 

That will certainly be something to be explored in my upcoming therapy. 

 

I don’t want to hijack @anamikanon‘s thread here, but that’s the answer to your question @Amy jones. I feel relief that he may not be ace, but also worry about his health, and guilty for hoping it is his health. F—king catch 22s everywhere 😒

 

[Amy jones]

1 hour ago, InProgress said:

It is the first time for a medical evaluation, yes. One thing I have been really struggling with is wondering how did he let this go on for 20 some years and not get it checked (even though we had talked about it numerous times and I almost left him twice! Even moved out one of those times!) when he knew it was hurting me? 

 

That will certainly be something to be explored in my upcoming therapy. 

 

I don’t want to hijack @anamikanon‘s thread here, but that’s the answer to your question @Amy jones. I feel relief that he may not be ace, but also worry about his health, and guilty for hoping it is his health. F—king catch 22s everywhere 😒

 

Wow I am also surprised it took 20 years! Maybe inside he knew it wasn’t a medical

issue, and by confirming it wasn’t would make the situation much more real, or he might even consider that you would lose hope once you knew it wasn’t medical. 

[Telecaster68]

Just getting back to the OP...

 

That multi-layered level of obliviousness about sex seems common to almost every asexual person, however smart and empathetic they are in other areas. Even when (as with your partner) they're happy enough to actually have sex, there's still a deep cluelessness about the dynamics of the situation, and sexuals seem painfully aware of what's going on. It seems to me generally more than just not being bothered about sex; it's a lack of noticing some fundamental things about your partner and your relationships, and it's incredibly painful to be on the receiving end of it.

[ryn2]

That’s part of why I keep looking for an analogous situation people can relate to and understand, because I get the sense neither side really gets what it’a actually like to be on the other side.  All we can do is go by what it would mean/signify if we were(n’t) doing thing X, or said thing Y, and what we would know or choose ourselves in the reverse situation... and that leads us to assumptions and conclusions that don’t help anyone.

 

Unfortunately, I haven’t come up with a workable analogy yet,

[uhtred]

I'm sorry you are in this situation. I'll join the others and warn you not to expect it to get better. I've been trying for 30 years. 

 

The gap is just too big.  An asexual is unlikely to ever understand what sex means to you, and you are unlikely to understand what its like for them.   

 

You will have the conversation over and over again. Sometimes you will think that you have made progress, but then something will happen or be said that will let you know that nothing has changed.

 

Things have recently seemed better with my wife - she seemed more willing to try new things in bed, and seemed to enjoy them.  Then sunday she told me that she disliked all the new things we had been doing, that she had just done them to make me happy. She was willing to do them "if I really wanted" .    Sigh.  Sex is not appealing when it is a distasteful chore that your partner does for you.  Much better to take matters into your own hands so to speak.  At least they aren't resenting you for the effort. 

 

I just have to keep reminding myself that sex is only when she wants, what she wants.  That there may be occasional times when she decides she wants to do something, but that will be completely uncorrelated with whatever I might happen to feel like at the time. 

[anisotrophic]

Gah. @anamikanon I'm sorry, I'd probably flip out too.

 

15 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

That multi-layered level of obliviousness about sex seems common to almost every asexual person, however smart and empathetic they are in other areas.

2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

That’s part of why I keep looking for an analogous situation people can relate to and understand, because I get the sense neither side really gets what it’a actually like to be on the other side.

I still really like the colorblindness analogy? Someone that is colorblind will have a profoundly different experience of the world – but just in a specific aspect. And not knowing about "colorblindness" makes it hard to recognize. 😔

And maybe knowing about it, and understanding the mechanics of it, can make it more predictable. But maybe not symmetrically so – it's a bit difficult for me to imagine being colorblind, but I suspect it's more difficult to imagine seeing colors one has never seen.

[ryn2]

I like the colorblindness analogy too, but no one seems to have any sort of visceral aha reaction to it.  People don’t seem to be passionate about seeing color.

[SusannaC]

Anamikanon, you describe my situation so well.  The total lack of awareness my husband has of my need and his feeling that this is a perfect union, there is no problem, because sex hasn’t been a part of our relationship in years and years...these facts deeply disturb me... I have often found myself wondering- does he lack common sense?  This is a larger and complicated problem though, with no truly acceptable resolution for me.  Talking about it feels futile- we may as well be speaking foreign languages.  So I refuse to embarrass myself as needy at this point in life, by talking about a subject he does not view as important.  It is what it is. This is my burden to deal with now.

[anamikanon]

Just read all the replies.

 

It is fine to hijack the thread. This was more of a reflection kind of thing than an active problem.

 

Good news is that we have a good level of trust and communication between us otherwise, so we are able to use these conversations to communicate as well. I guess my irritation was more along the lines of someone presuming a relationship to be more than it is. As in, yes, we are great together and we are buddies and love and respect each other and we'll probably be together for life but heck no, this isn't my idea of a romantic relationship at all! And somehow, him keeping seeing me as the perfect partner sometimes gets on my nerves.

 

Conversation also helped me understand that it is natural for him to feel like that, since all his needs from a partner are indeed met in this relationship, and it helped him understand that even if they are met on his end, them not being met on mine can sometimes make it feel a bit jarring for me if he describes the relationship in some ways as though this is all I want as well. I'm trying to learn to take it as the compliment he means instead of reading assumptions about my perspective in it. He is trying to be a bit more careful about how he describes us so that I don't feel like my sexuality is being dismissed because he is fine how things are.

 

He also brought up the subject of having some kind of a sexual relationship to whatever limited extent possible. I guess I'm a bit pessimistic, but I replied that if he initiates sex, I rarely refuse and even enjoy it, but to me it is a one off thing with no implications for future sex or anything. So it is really up to him. If he wants this to be a relationship that is sexual, he simply has to be interested in sex more. If it happens on any kind of a reliable basis, I'll start seeing it as a regular feature, but I'm not going to hold my breath and wait around for him to be interested. It doesn't work that way. If I don't think sex is likely in a relationship, I don't spend my time thinking sex with that person.

 

He didn't understand this, I think. He wants me to initiate more, since he isn't too aware of sex, but I'm not too interested in that, given that nine times out of ten, if I initiate, he simply sees it as me being horny and offers to masturbate me if he feels up to it (or not) and is usually not interested in sexual contact for himself. 

 

I have no idea where this is going, but the good news is that it is going wherever it is with a desire to be closer and a sense of curiosity and trying things out to see if something works. Other good news of course being that we are in an okay place even as a QPR.

[InProgress]

57 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I guess my irritation was more along the lines of someone presuming a relationship to be more than it is. As in, yes, we are great together and we are buddies and love and respect each other and we'll probably be together for life but heck no, this isn't my idea of a romantic relationship at all! And somehow, him keeping seeing me as the perfect partner sometimes gets on my nerves.

I totally get this and often feel frustrated when my husband does that, too. He doesn't feel the incompatibility like I do at all, which makes it feel that much harder to bridge.

[ryn2]

1 hour ago, anamikanon said:

I'm trying to learn to take it as the compliment he means instead of reading assumptions about my perspective in it.

This is really important...  it’s very likely that, when he’s telling other people about how wonderful things are, he means that he thinks very highly of you and is excited about your time together.  If he says “we’re really happy together” he’s probably just presenting a positive, united front rather than intending to speak for you.

 

When someone asks me about my partner I say he’s great and things are good.  I don’t talk about how he lost his job, or about his drinking, or about how he’s probably dumping me.  None of those are my story to tell.

[Nidwin]

 

 

 

21 hours ago, SusannaC said:

The total lack of awareness my husband has of my need and his feeling that this is a perfect union, there is no problem, because sex hasn’t been a part of our relationship in years and years...these facts deeply disturb me... I have often found myself wondering- does he lack common sense?

It's not a lack of common sense. It's not only not looking in the mirror but refusing to look in the mirror on your husband side.

What you describe is pure denial of the reality of the situation, mismatched "perfect" union on sexual intimacy level.

 

I understand that's not an easy situation, especially after being together so many Years or even decades. But as an aro ace I consider the attitude of your union "partners" as the act of a coward that refuses to take his/her responsabilities while denying you honesty. And the amount of energy you folks needed to refute bullshit is certainly an order of magnitude bigger than your spouse/husband was able to produce. (Bullshit asymmetry principle)

[ChainReact]

@anamikanon, my relationship with my wife is strikingly similar. I really appreciate the cogent way that you described your feelings. It’s helping me sort through mine - especially the disconnect of the ace partner when it comes to understanding sex and the lack of desire for the partner that I experience as the sexual in the relationship when she is up for sex. 

[anamikanon]

4 hours ago, ryn2 said:

This is really important...  it’s very likely that, when he’s telling other people about how wonderful things are, he means that he thinks very highly of you and is excited about your time together.  If he says “we’re really happy together” he’s probably just presenting a positive, united front rather than intending to speak for you.

 

When someone asks me about my partner I say he’s great and things are good.  I don’t talk about how he lost his job, or about his drinking, or about how he’s probably dumping me.  None of those are my story to tell.

He was talking to me not someone else. Basic issue simply was that since I no longer ask for sex, he assumed that this is what I want in an intimate relationship. He was just talking about us and loved that we can be totally ourselves with each other and that is what the best marriages are about. I get a vague sense that he probably also meant that sex isn't actually necessary and what we have (QPR) is the real deal, but thankfully he didn't say it outright.

 

For me, our relationship works mostly like roommates. It works well and I am not complaining, but it isn't an intimate relationship in that sense. More like a reallly close friendship or FWB if we really stretch it. For me to feel like i "belong" with a partner, I can't be watching out for what I'm doing, how I'm touching, can I feel like this around him or not, etc.

 

My ace is awesome, and make no mistake, I adore him to bits, but he simply cannot share that kind of spontaneity with me and much as I love spending time with him, there are aspects of me I feel uncomfortable sharing with him. Not for lack of wanting, but he simply isn't wired that way. He doesn't have bandwidth at all when it comes to the sexual front. Not just the sexual act - which would still be ok, but the utter lack of understanding that side of me. For example, someone who understood me sexually wouldn't miss the glaring fact that I have sexual needs, even if not from him. He is simply oblivious. It goes beyond not wanting sex. So it can be like:

 

"Going out for a walk. Want to join me?"

 

"Nah. You go. I have something to do."

 

"Oh. Ok. Then I guess I'll skip too."

 

"Oh no, you should go if you want to. Or why don't you go to your room and have a shower and I'll get ready too?"

 

"I'm ready. I'm going like this only. You look fine. No need to fuss. We'll take kid along too."

 

"Ok then, gimme a bit. I'll join you and kid in ten minutes."

 

"Cool. I need to check my email too." *takes his laptop and sits next to me*

 

At that point, my choice is to scrap the idea of masturbating or tell him explicitly. He will cooperate, of course, but I find it too awkward to bring up and lose my mood. Worse, he may offer to do me while thinking of the walk to follow all through. ouch. This isn't a partner, it is an adorable but clueless roomie you're trying to sneak away from for a minute.

 

In that sense, this blindness of him makes him unable to understand me in important ways. It isn't just about the sex. It is more like having a relationship with a child or something, where you simply can't expect him to understand some realities or to remember to pay attention to them after they are pointed out. There are aspects of me where he simply cannot be my partner. I mean, we even tried things like him keeping a vague eye on when I get time to myself and if it has been a while, chances are good that me asking for space is for masturbating. We tried discussing the use of code words. He hears them, doesn't register them, and me using the code word is no use at all. I even tried things like getting my vibrator out and placing it in plain sight and nope. He doesn't get that me taking it out could be because I may want to use it.

 

He simply isn't developed enough mentally to be a partner to a sexual person, even one willing to leave him alone sexually. In the sense that I'm not pushing him away out of frustration or something and punishing him by saying he isn't a complete partner. He's simply ..... absent when it comes to understanding me in crucial ways. And this isn't even sexual, it is about my need for space and privacy. It is not a secret. Anyone who knows me to any extent knows this. First thing we did when he moved here was rented an entire flat next door so he could have his own room and we had some extra space for work and such. And this was when we were expecting to be in a hot sexual relationship and didn't know he was ace. As an asocial person, sharing my life and bedroom with someone is already a big deal, but if this becomes an awkward issue, in that moment, it becomes really irritating for me. Once I literally snapped at him telling him I'd used the code word and this was my vibrator and since he wasn't taking subtle clues and ignored both, to please get out. I didn't even masturbate, I was just feeling cornered and wanted my space back.

 

This may sound like I'm complaining too much, but these are relatively rare issues and most of the time we get along fine and we enjoy being together.

 

[InProgress]

This reminds me so much of the concept of “bids” that I read about awhile back and had the article saved on Pinterest. Basically it sounds like you’re making bids for time alone and they’re going completely over his head. I have often tried to explain to close friends that know that my husband and I have an issue that it’s like I toss a ball at him and he just doesn’t catch it. Sometimes he tries to catch it, but most of the time it’s just been total obliviousness. Then when I saw this article explaining bids, I knew that was what I was trying to explain. 

https://www.helpmefindlove.net/gottman-research-shows-bids-help-divorce-proof-your-marriage/

[Telecaster68]

That idea doesn't seem unique to relationships to me. It's just subtexts of every human interaction. 

[ryn2]

40 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

He was talking to me not someone else.

Ah, gotcha.  I should have scrolled back up as I lost track of that along the way.

[ryn2]

46 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

This may sound like I'm complaining too much,

Not at all.  I hate having my private time (whether I’m planning to use it to masturbate or to read) unexpectedly invaded.

 

I have kind of the same-opposite problem, though, because for me masturbation is and always has been Not A Team Sport.  I’m always on the lookout for times there’s no chance I’ll get caught at it.

 

I don’t know if that’s cos I’m grey-ish or because I was caught and shamed by my horrified mother as a child.

[ryn2]

The bid article is interesting.  It’s actually in some ways the opposite of what my former therapist spent a lot of time encouraging me to do - take what people say at face value and act as though they said what they mean, so they’re forced to shoulder responsibility for asking  for what they want - as I was trying to read between the lines too much and taking the blame for things that weren’t me.

[ChainReact]

I found the bids article interesting too. @ryn2, I think either in bids or in people taking responsibility for asking for what they want the common denominator of effectively communicating is what makes all the difference. 

[InProgress]

22 minutes ago, ChainReact said:

I found the bids article interesting too. @ryn2, I think either in bids or in people taking responsibility for asking for what they want the common denominator of effectively communicating is what makes all the difference. 

Agree. I just think this is another way of looking at the complexity of the situation and understanding what I’ve been so persistently feeling and experiencing all these years. I find it helpful.

 

[InProgress]

59 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

That idea doesn't seem unique to relationships to me. It's just subtexts of every human interaction. 

Agree. I don’t think it was implied anywhere that this is unique to relationships.

[ChainReact]

Yeah, it’s great just to have a word to put to the idea. It makes it a lot easier to grapple with. I guess words are idea handles. 

[anamikanon]

8 hours ago, InProgress said:

This reminds me so much of the concept of “bids” that I read about awhile back and had the article saved on Pinterest. Basically it sounds like you’re making bids for time alone and they’re going completely over his head. I have often tried to explain to close friends that know that my husband and I have an issue that it’s like I toss a ball at him and he just doesn’t catch it. Sometimes he tries to catch it, but most of the time it’s just been total obliviousness. Then when I saw this article explaining bids, I knew that was what I was trying to explain. 

https://www.helpmefindlove.net/gottman-research-shows-bids-help-divorce-proof-your-marriage/

Nice article.

 

Thing is, he gets ALL my other requests to leave me alone to the point he fits in my space seamlessly. He can be in the room and not say a word if I'm focused on something. Forget walk, he won't even ask if I want dinner if I seem engrossed with work. It is like his mind simply blacks out that little thing called sex. Some days I can't understand how we had a sexual relationship, including some fairly kinkly stuff for three years. It is like he's suddenly regressed or something.

 

I'm hoping that it is a phase that resolves once he realizes that being sensitive to sexual stuff won't immediately oblige him to participate.