In conversation with my ace

[Amy jones]

10 hours ago, anamikanon said:

As an asocial person, sharing my life and bedroom with someone is already a big deal, but if this becomes an awkward issue, in that moment, it becomes really irritating for m

Again, in the same boat. The only time I’ve felt comfortable sharing my space is when it’s someone I’m romantically and sexually connected with. Otherwise it feels as if I’ve regretfully agreed to share a room with a friend, which makes you question why you don’t just have separate rooms/beds. 

 

Most of my friends have told me this shouldn’t be such a big issue for me. That once I get married and have kids, sex will be the last thing on my mind. If anything they’re batting their sexually deprived husbands away on a nightly bases. I sit there drooling at even the thought me of sexually rejecting my bf. Some have even called me “lucky”, and that “at least he wouldn’t cheat on me”. This always makes me reconsider how I really feel about it. As yes maybe I’d rather be with an ace husband than a cheating “horn dog” husband. 

 

If you don’t mind me asking how long have you been married? Although it’s apparent to me that you love your husband, If you could do it all over again would you not have married him? I’m sorry to make this all about me, but I’m really stuck in a limbo. I really like the way you express yourself, it resonates with me and tbh you sound like the future me if I were to marry my bf. 

[Amy jones]

10 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Once I literally snapped at him telling him I'd used the code word and this was my vibrator and since he wasn't taking subtle clues and ignored both, to please get ou

I have resorted to shower masturbation. I’m surprised to hear that at some point you had a kinky sexual relationship with him. How could it change so drastically. 

[anamikanon]

2 hours ago, Amy jones said:

If you don’t mind me asking how long have you been married?

We've been in a committed but long distance relationship for three years (he's originally from another city, but used to travel to be with us as he could between 2-7 days a month). He moved in last december and figured out he was ace within a fortnight. We married end of July - not even a month yet. It was mostly for legal reasons related with custody of my son with whom he has a brilliant relationship - in the event something happened to me.

 

2 hours ago, Amy jones said:

Although it’s apparent to me that you love your husband, If you could do it all over again would you not have married him?

Frankly, I don't know. If I knew he was ace from the word go, chances are he'd still be welcome to live with us, given how well he really fits in here, but I wouldn't agree to present as a couple before the world. It would also make things much simpler with my mom, who has mental issues AND is sexually massively repressed to the point of going "yuck" when something sexual comes up in casual conversation, which forms another major complication for me to practice poly. Just the idea of explaining poly to her gives me a massive headache and I'm not the clandestine type. She knows I'm poly, but she lacks the comprehension and is likely to throw a massive fit if another man arrived on the scene. Heck she questions my male friends staying over if my ace isn't home and I be like "I'm too old for this shit". My home, my guests, can't handle it? Move out. Though fact is, she isn't capable of living independently.

 

So it would make life really much simpler if she didn't think my ace and I were a "couple". Personally, I don't care so much about the labels, but yes, overall me being "single" would make life much easier - even if I shared the occasional sex with my ace - which, I think is not likely if we began with knowing he was ace.

 

2 hours ago, Amy jones said:

I’m sorry to make this all about me, but I’m really stuck in a limbo. I really like the way you express yourself, it resonates with me and tbh you sound like the future me if I were to marry my bf. 

I think at the end of the day, we are all human and our responses to many things can be remarkably similar for strangers. Feel free to make it about you. Chances are, I'll see shades of my life there too.

 

1 hour ago, Amy jones said:

I have resorted to shower masturbation. I’m surprised to hear that at some point you had a kinky sexual relationship with him. How could it change so drastically. 

Well, he has a libido of sorts when things are going well and generally is aroused by his own mental scripts/fantasies rather than another person. The kinky sexual relationship was when we were in an LDR, so his visits had this mental script of "visiting my lover" which would involve sex, so he was in the mood for sex when he came. When we started living together, he had no mental script for sex being a regular part of his life, and things just fell apart. We even tried discussing if including some sort of fantasy play/script kind of thing would work to revive our sexual relationship, but it doesn't work that way for him. It is essentially what his mind conjures up for him and not an interpersonal thing. We used to have more sex in one visit of his than we've had in the half year we've lived together.

 

Also the kinky relationship is just one aspect of it. The sex could be tricky all through - particularly on longer visits once his mental script was exhausted in the first couple of days. He just used to turn off. I didn't understand it, but thought that he may possibly simply be exhausted from all the sex or something. Not that it was that frequent. But asexuality was outside my sexual experience and he didn't have the words to articulate how he felt about sex.

 

Also, I think he was really in love with me from the word go and didn't want to lose me at any cost, so probably stuck with the sex to make the relationship "real" - in his own eyes as well. He genuinely thought that sex would "click" at some point. Instead, when faced with the reality of being close to a sexual partner 24/7 he freaked out. No sex whatsoever for two weeks, then one halfhearted attempt, then a lot of rationalizing for why he didn't want it "stress of moving" "big change in life" etc. Another week later, he read about asexuality somewhere and that was that. He recognized himself. Week after that, he told me and immediately moved to thinking that sex would no longer be a part of the relationship. He was so overwhelmed (and probably relieved) that he didn't even have any awareness of me being another person with actual sexual needs who couldn't just "status change" that easy. Sex simply evaporated. As in, no further attempts, no interest, no nothing.

 

When I blew a fuse, he tried half heartedly, but really, he had found his "identity" in that sense and I don't think he has ever really wanted to even try for sex once he realized that it wasn't going to "click". He still occasionally gets aroused (his own mental scripts) and wants to have sex instead of masturbating because he now is aware that I like and miss having a sex life, but really, there's not much point calling it sex.

 

That is how drastic it was.

[ryn2]

6 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Thing is, he gets ALL my other requests to leave me alone to the point he fits in my space seamlessly. He can be in the room and not say a word if I'm focused on something. Forget walk, he won't even ask if I want dinner if I seem engrossed with work.

Dumb question here, and sorry if I missed the explanation earlier on... but in the discussion you quoted earlier what would have clued him in to the fact you wanted to masturbate (as opposed to finishing up something else)?  Something must have, if he ignored (“ignored”) your want for that particular alone time when he otherwise doesn’t.

 

I.e., if he’s picking the sex alone time out of the background noise he’s not actually oblivious to it and is blocking for some other reason... seems too precise to be coincidental.

[anamikanon]

39 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Dumb question here, and sorry if I missed the explanation earlier on... but in the discussion you quoted earlier what would have clued him in to the fact you wanted to masturbate (as opposed to finishing up something else)?  Something must have, if he ignored (“ignored”) your want for that particular alone time when he otherwise doesn’t.

 

I.e., if he’s picking the sex alone time out of the background noise he’s not actually oblivious to it and is blocking for some other reason... seems too precise to be coincidental.

Good point. I don't actually know, but it is quite likely to be something in my behavior. Now that you mention it, it does seem too precise to be coincidental. Possibly any residual insecurity around sex given what we have gone through? Or possibly I don't mind and thus not notice other instances and this gets noticed more by me? Stuff to ponder and perhaps discuss with him.

 

I say this "Possibly any residual insecurity around sex given what we have gone through?" because he has also mentioned a few times that he'd like to continue a sexual relationship and for me to ask him to stimulate me if I feel horny and is not very happy that I've lost interest. So perhaps he consciously or unconsciously gets this and would prefer me to not DIY?

[Telecaster68]

36 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

if he’s picking the sex alone time out of the background noise he’s not actually oblivious to it and is blocking for some other reason... seems too precise to be coincidental.

This is kind of what I've been saying about being skeptical of this 'obliviousness', in general, amongst asexuals.

[ryn2]

I certainly can’t speak for all asexuals (maybe not even for any!) but what might pass for obliviousness in my case isn’t.  Not exactly.  I definitely noticed when the sexual frequency in my relationship decreased.  The main differences in my case are 1) I’m more likely to notice in hindsight, rather than at the time, in the sense that I have to look back over a few weeks to see that it’s been longer than usual unless I’m actively tracking it for some reason, 2) compared to what the sexuals here report I think about the decrease much less often, and 3) unless there are other signs of relationship trouble/I know that’s how my partner always first communicates relationship trouble I don’t see it as a major relationship red flag.

 

With my current partner I didn’t bring it up once I noticed it for a few reasons.  It’s something he does not like to talk about in general, meaning lots of defensiveness and a guaranteed, fairly irrational trip to fight city.  We had the longstanding history of dealing with his ED, and that was always a super-sensitive topic.  I mistakenly assumed he’d stopped trying because of that.  Shortly before we stopped we’d had several fights about sex and one big one about mild BDSM and I was still annoyed.  Bringing up the topic ran the risk of sounding like I wanted to have sex, rather than just that I’d noticed something was wrong.  Last and definitely not least, he had a great deal of outside stuff going on.  Oh, and I kind of thought he might be cheating and, dealing with a lot of stuff around getting laid off and starting a new job, I didn’t have the mental bandwidth to cope with that too.

 

As more and more time went by I thought about it less often... but   it’s not something I forgot about completely.  It was the sudden announcement of a breakup five years later that caught me off-guard.  If it had come five years ago it would have been much less puzzling.

[Telecaster68]

Yeah, your situation is the inverse of a lot of the relationships on here - your partner seems to be the avoidant one.

 

But as a general pattern, I've noticed asexual partners (on here, and reported by partners on here), seem to say initially 'oh I didn't realise', when it's brought up. But then having had it brought up, nothing changes - so realising has changed nothing, which makes me skeptical it was the reason in the first place. And if it was, then surely reminders are the answer, but they (often) constitute pressure, which is off putting and counter productive. 

 

From the outside, it looks like the asexual just doesn't want to deal with anything round sex at all, and will say whatever it takes to make the issue go away for the moment. Again, as a general pattern, not in every case. 

 

That's why I'm skeptical of claims of obliviousness. They tend not to stand up to scrutiny if you assume your partner is a sentient caring human being.

[anamikanon]

3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm skeptical of claims of obliviousness. They tend not to stand up to scrutiny if you assume your partner is a sentient caring human being.

So I asked my ace about what @ryn2said. And told him about my hypothesis and asked him teasingly whether the next time he does this, I should take it to mean he doesn't want me to DIY it and would like to be involved? He claimed to not have realized. No idea if too embarrassed to admit or really oblivious.

 

But here's the thing. I'll do it anyway. Next time I find it exceptionally hard to get him to see the obvious, I'll just directly tell him what I'm planning and ask him if he'd like to be involved. If that is what he really wanted, it will just be another way we experiment with our differences in sexuality. Not my preference, but not the end of the world either. If that WASN'T what he meant, he'll definitely learn to be more attentive to avoid such invitations in the future, where simply noting my sexuality doesn't work because he loses sight of it - if he doesn't want sexual action, he'll learn to dodge much faster than paying attention to what I want 😛 

 

And of course he is never forced to participate. That goes without saying.

[ryn2]

4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

That's why I'm skeptical of claims of obliviousness. They tend not to stand up to scrutiny if you assume your partner is a sentient caring human being.

They tend not to stand up to scrutiny if you assume your partner shares your worldview, language, and feelings around sex.  We’ve pretty clearly established that’s not the case with aces and sexuals, so any discussion is going to have to be a lot more direct.

[Telecaster68]

Just now, ryn2 said:

They tend not to stand up to scrutiny if you assume your partner shares your worldview, language, and feelings around sex.  We’ve pretty clearly established that’s not the case with aces and sexuals, so any discussion is going to have to be a lot more direct.

I don't think it's down to what people think about sex. I think it's down to whether they're up to basic language comprehension. This seems to be the kind of exchange, from what I've gleaned on AVEN:

 

Monday:

'I'm feeling sad and lonely because it's pretty clear to me you have no desire for sex to be part of our relationship'

'Oh. I had no idea you felt like that'.

'We could have sex tonight'

'I need more warning than that'

'Tomorrow?'

'Maybe.'

 

Wed:

'I'm feeling sad and lonely because it's pretty clear to me you have no desire for sex to be part of our relationship'

'We could have sex some time'

'Tonight?'

'I need more warning than that'

'Tomorrow?'

'Maybe.'

 

Fri:

'I'm feeling sad and lonely because it's pretty clear to me you have no desire for sex to be part of our relationship'

'Oh. I had no idea you felt like that'.

'But we talked about it twice this week.'

'I feel too pressured by you asking for sex all the time'.

'How about over the weekend?'

'Maybe'

[ryn2]

15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

‘I'm feeling sad and lonely because it's pretty clear to me you have no desire for sex to be part of our relationship'

What I’m wondering is how many people are saying this and how many are (thinking they are communicating this but actually) saying things like...

”I’m feeling down.”

”Are you happy?”

”I feel like we’re not very close right now.”

”I’m lonely.”

”I’m having a rough time.”

...or going with nonverbal cues like a hand on a knee, sitting close, etc...

...and then, when a vague-feeling, missed-my-point conversation transpires, feeling like they had the interactions you list above.

 

Don’t know the answer, just wondering.

[Telecaster68]

Just now, ryn2 said:

What I’m wondering is how many people are saying this and how many are (thinking they are communicating this but actually) saying things like...

”I’m feeling down.”

”Are you happy?”

”I feel like we’re not very close right now.”

”I’m lonely.”

”I’m having a rough time.”

...or going with nonverbal cues like a hand on a knee, sitting close, etc...

...and then, when a vague-feeling, missed-my-point conversation transpires, feeling like they had the interactions you list above.

 

Don’t know the answer, just wondering.

I imagine they mostly start with your list, which I'd expect, in most relationships to be pretty clear cues that at least some attention and physical touch would be welcomed. Then when they fail, eventually getting to more like my version, and it still not working...

[anisotrophic]

I'm left wondering what the hell happened on Tuesday and Thursday?

[ryn2]

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Then when they fail, eventually getting to more like my version, and it still not working...

Some people have described getting to that, but others seem to be stuck looping in my version.  The latter are the cases where being more direct (potentially with the aid of a professional third party) stands some chance of improving things.

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, anisotropic said:

I'm left wondering what the hell happened on Tuesday and Thursday?

Posting on AVEN.

[Telecaster68]

6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Posting on AVEN.

On Monday and Wednesday, sex 'tomorrow' was a possibility, but the sexual was aware that since it had been mentioned, bringing it up again would be 'pressure', so didn't bring it up. So nothing happened. The 'maybe' meant 'yeah whatever shutup I'm uncomfortable make it go away'.

 

Obviously this isn't realistic. Normally there would be some weeks between those conversations.

[anamikanon]

23 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

'I'm feeling sad and lonely because it's pretty clear to me you have no desire for sex to be part of our relationship'

[...]

'Maybe.'

Our conversations mostly were like

 

Mon

"I'm in a shitty mood because I'm horny and frustrated"

"Oh. Do you want me to touch you?"

"Sure thanks"

 

Tue

"I'm horny"

"How many times do you feel horny?"

"Often"

"You know, there's this film..."

"Cool, let's watch"

 

Wed

"I really miss sex."

"I just did you two nights ago!"

"That's not really sex"

"You want me to touch you now?"

"Not unless you are in the mood"

"I don't mind as long as you don't touch me"

"Nah. We'll watch a film"

 

Thu

"Why are you so quiet?"

"I miss having sex"

"hug. I wish I could have sex with you all night, but my mind is just not there"

 

Fri

"Made a profile on Tinder. Now irritated with random messages"

"Just think of how much you will enjoy it if you meet someone nice"

"Haven't met anyone new. Just irritated"

"So drop it for now. Maybe tomorrow you meet a porn star who is also profound"

"Let's cuddle."

"Always"

 

Sat

"Want to have sex?"

"WHaaa....? YES!"

*Checks phone while I rush for condoms*

"There's this thread by this handle about global warming and I am so going to rip his arguments apart....."

 

Sun

"So sorry for last night"

"S'okay"

"I totally forgot. You should have reminded."

"Then you'd have tweeted about global warming during sex. lol. Thanks, but no thanks."

"Global warming probably would get me harder than sex though. There's the bright side"

"Love you, you big idiot."

....

 

 

In the sense that we have different and varied conversations and he isn't exactly unwilling, but the end result seems the same. lol. So not sure conversation can actually change the fact that it is a relationship between a sexual and ace and well.... sometimes things suck.

[ryn2]

14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The 'maybe' meant 'yeah whatever shutup I'm uncomfortable make it go away'.

The maybe could also legitimately mean maybe at the time, much like the classic introvert issue of “when I accepted the invite it sounded fun but now that it’s today I just want to get out of it.”

[ryn2]

3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

In the sense that we have different and varied conversations and he isn't exactly unwilling, but the end result seems the same. lol. So not sure conversation can actually change the fact that it is a relationship between a sexual and ace and well.... sometimes things suck.

That at least sounds like a healthier overall relationship, though, sucky stuff notwithstanding.

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The maybe could also legitimately mean maybe at the time, much like the classic introvert issue of “when I accepted the invite it sounded fun but now that it’s today I just want to get out of it.”

Yep. Which needs pointing out. Which turns out to be pressure, and the asexual makes damn sure never to use the word 'maybe' again. Instead, there will be headaches, full stomachs, films to be watched. Lots and lots of unassailable one offs.

[Telecaster68]

6 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

In the sense that we have different and varied conversations and he isn't exactly unwilling, but the end result seems the same. lol. So not sure conversation can actually change the fact that it is a relationship between a sexual and ace and well.... sometimes things suck.

You're also not getting brushed off; he's addressing what you're saying.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Yep. Which needs pointing out. Which turns out to be pressure, and the asexual makes damn sure never to use the word 'maybe' again. Instead, there will be headaches, full stomachs, films to be watched. Lots and lots of unassailable one offs.

We teach people how to treat us.  If we tolerate things we’re not actually okay with they keep asking for/doing them.  If we want it to stop, we have to stop letting it work.

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

We teach people how to treat us.  If we tolerate things we’re not actually okay with they keep asking for/doing them.  If we want it to stop, we have to stop letting it work.

How do you stop 'I don't want to have sex with you' working when it's hidden behind a succession of reasons that you can't contradict? Or even if it's explicit, sexuals just have to tolerate it or leave. Not letting it work would be rape.

[anamikanon]

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

You're also not getting brushed off; he's addressing what you're saying.

True. But then if he brushed me off, I'd dump him so fast, his head would spin. Prime real estate in bedroom recovered. 

 

In the sense that he doesn't do it, but I wouldn't take it either. I think that also gets communicated to some extent - what lines you cannot cross with a partner - not instantly, but as the relationship matured and patterns of conversation formed between the two of us. He comes from a home where his mother talked down to him a lot. He is in a habit of doing it to himself. I objected every time and told him to get a reality check instead of repeating random melodrama patterns. Slowly I had to remind him less and less. If he speaks about or to me in a manner I think is disrespectful, I object immediately and ask him to speak in a manner that indicates he wants to talk to me as someone he wants in his life instead of being the problem in his life. If I am a problem in his life, we end it. He got the message. A lot of these patterns are also existing because we allow them to exist rather than create an awkward situation by bringing them to stark light.

 

My father was verbally abusive. To date when I'm angry, I have really nasty words, slurs, phrases that spring to the tip of my tongue, waiting for me to give them voice. They aren't even my style, but I've heard them so much, that in a moment of anger, they are available. I've had to really work hard to not let them take root in me. Thankfully, as a child I didn't grow up around my father, but my grandparents who cared for me, because both parents worked shifts. My grandmother really taught me to not say words I didn't mean - like any child, I too was prone to saying words in anger (thank god I didn't have my dad's scripts on hand at that time or I think I'd be a totally different person!). Once I yelled at my uncle and wished he'd die (he'd refused me something. I was probably six). Not known to me, he was scheduled for a surgery the next week and his wife took it really badly and was very upset and in turn angry with me. Nothing happened to him, but I liked him and when he was in hospital, I thought it was because of me. The grandmother was a very very wise woman in such matters and took the opportunity to reassure me as well as give me a serious interest in measuring my words to my intent for life.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

How do you stop 'I don't want to have sex with you' working when it's hidden behind a succession of reasons that you can't contradict? Or even if it's explicit, sexuals just have to tolerate it or leave. Not letting it work would be rape.

What I meant was, if you want to stop the cycle of pointless discussion you need to be more direct.  Yes, the direct answer may then be “honestly, I’m never going to want to have sex with you,” at which point you have a decision to make.  But at least you’re not endlessly seething over missed cues and conversations that get your hopes up only to dash them.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

A lot of these patterns are also existing because we allow them to exist rather than create an awkward situation by bringing them to stark light.

This.

[anamikanon]

14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

How do you stop 'I don't want to have sex with you' working when it's hidden behind a succession of reasons that you can't contradict? Or even if it's explicit, sexuals just have to tolerate it or leave. Not letting it work would be rape.

By focusing more on what you want to say. The conversation where my ace isn't brushing me off? If you notice, I'm also not blaming him for my horny or expecting him to do anything about it. Or he'd be far more cagey. I actually had to learn to have a very light touch with him, because he has Avoidant Personality Disorder. The slightest sense of accusation and he'll start blaming himself - I don't even have to mean it like that. It is enough if he perceives it.

 

Even today, if I ask him if he'll have sex with me tomorrow, the answer will be "Maybe" only. He seriously wouldn't know and it is too unlikely but he doesn't like saying no.

 

If I spoke with him about sexual frustration or asexuality as I normally did before getting into a relationship with him, he'd be thinking of himself as too defective to be allowed to live. And I'm not at all saying this lightly. Not a chance that he'd be able to joke about global warming getting him harder than sex could. He'd be seeing it as failing at his role as my partner and downhill from there.

[anisotrophic]

I'm totally down with being forward?

"Can we have sex?" (suggestively touches)
"I'm tired"
"Oh I'm sorry! Let me help you feel better"
(I'm solicitous & try to make sure he gets time to rest)

Next evening:
"Are you feeling better? Because sadly you are still very attractive to me." (suggestive look)
(he laughs) "yeah... okay"

And they score! Gooooooooooaaal ... I mean, I'm sorry I'm making light of this, but I'm not remotely subtle, and I try to be good-humored about it. I may literally and jokingly ask if I can score. 🤔 Maybe I'll make him laugh by announcing a goal at an inappropriate moment...

But I admit it's taken me months to feel consistently good-humored about it.

[anamikanon]

2 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

And they score! Gooooooooooaaal ... I mean, I'm sorry I'm making light of this, but I'm not remotely subtle, and I try to be good-humored about it. I may literally and jokingly ask if I can score. 🤔 Maybe I'll make him laugh by announcing a goal at an inappropriate moment...

But I admit it's taken me months to feel consistently good-humored about it.

Taking notes. On the off-chance my ace is actually going somewhere with his stated with for our relationship to at least be occasionally sexual. Pigs, fly, etc but a woman can be prepared, right? 😂