Asexuality needs a narrower standard of definition

[Éowyn21]

When I say that asexuality needs a narrower standard to define it, I don't mean the official definition of not experiencing sexual attraction. That is clear enough. What I mean is that I don't see how people who actively seek sexual relations with others can be considered asexual. If someone is having sex due to an intrinsic desire and not society's expectations then that person is clearly sexual . I've come across people saying "it's not true asexuality means a lack of desire to have sex, it just means not being sexually attracted to anyone". This is completely incoherent to me.  I hear all these things about being "cupiosexual", and honestly strange terms like these just muddy the waters of what it actually means to be asexual. Asexuality and its nuances can already be difficult for people from the outside to understand, yet this inclusion of "desiring sex with others, yet asexual" is not even logically coherent and makes things confusing for everyone. Secondly, I don't think these people should be included on the asexual spectrum when they are functionally no different from people who are sexual. 

[Rynn]

Well, you're not the only one who thinks that way.

 

 

[Éowyn21]

16 minutes ago, Laurann said:

Well, you're not the only one who thinks that way.

 

 

Lol, I am definitely new here. It's awesome to see that its an object of discussion because this was something that really confused me. 

[Enne Kristin]

Hi and welcome! Did anybody offer you cake allready?

 

Yes, you are not alone with your opinion, Though I am aceflux (sexual attraction and/or desire are fluid for me), I can well understand why some folks feel like that. Though I feel/desire/am attracted only "on every Feb 29 which is a tuesday" so to speak (very rarely, but actually I do), I accept that many especially rsex-repulsed/negative/averse want to have a narrower definition. But one should not start policing onto individuals, I think.

[Confusion 0]

I desire and enjoy sex. But during sex, I'm so clearly asexual it's painful. It's just another fun activity to me, like riding a bike.

List every common experience of asexuals, and I can relate to practically every single one of them. The only difference is I enjoy something most people here don't.

 

My choice in activities shouldn't define my orientation.

[Éowyn21]

5 hours ago, N'y said:

Hi and welcome! Did anybody offer you cake allready?

 

Yes, you are not alone with your opinion, Though I am aceflux (sexual attraction and/or desire are fluid for me), I can well understand why some folks feel like that. Though I feel/desire/am attracted only "on every Feb 29 which is a tuesday" so to speal (very rarely, but actually I do), I accept that many especially rsex-repulsed/negative/averse want to have a narrower definition. But one should not start policing onto individuals, I think.

Thank you for the cake haha!  For me, I understand and relate with the concept of being asexual and having a libido to the extent of masturbating or watching  pornography because that does not involve sharing one's sexuality with others. I also accept grey-asexuality, however this wider definition, the idea of being "asexual, yet regularly desiring sex" is very problematic imo. 

[Enne Kristin]

4 minutes ago, Confusion 0 said:

I desire and enjoy sex. But during sex, I'm so clearly asexual it's painful. It's just another fun activity to me, like riding a bike.

For me it is - if we get this far... - something I engage in because I know my spouse needs it - even daily if they could get it. I do I out of love and most likely we did something romantic together. Some things like fantasizing, but especially RPG may get me aroused, I have to admit. But this is mostly something in my head, my fantasy, my imagination. It is as if somebody else is doing "it"...

 

I am fine with romantic things - and here the same... Most of  what is important for me it is from the inside (I am a Tardis maybe??), the looks, cagab or gender ID are not thaaat important for me concerning romantic things.

[Scottthespy]

I think there's a distinction between 'wanting sex' for ulterior reasons, and actually wanting the sex just because you like having sex. If some one is willing to have sex with their sexual partners, or (like I was once) is simply curious to see what its like, or perhaps has even found that the act and the release is helping their health in some way, I would still mark those people as 'asexual', since the goal isn't the sex, its the fulfillment of a partner, or the knowledge, or the health benefits. Sex as a means to a desired end, that the asexual person would be just as happy to obtain through other methods if they were available. 

 

I do agree that 'wants sex just to have sex but is still asexual' is a confusing idea. If you still enjoy and actively seek out sex because you want to be having sex, then...why do you even need the distinction of 'asexuality'? Whether you feel attraction to the people you partner with or not, you're still out there, 'getting action' as the saying goes. No one is bugging you or asking for reasons why you aren't doing the thing...its like a person who only plays casual games like Candy Crush but insists "I'm not a gamer!". Whether you are or are not is inconsequential and doesn't really need a label or an explanation. You're doing a thing you enjoy, and no one or very few people are bothering you about it. Why the need to clarify that you aren't part of the group that also enjoys doing the thing? Used that way it almost sounds weirdly defensive. Why even look for a word that means 'not a gamer/not sexual' in the fist place?

[Enne Kristin]

hm personally, I dont actually desire the act of intercourse and other sexy things regularly. It is not a thing which I am looking forward to. As I said, I mostly engage in sexual action because my spouse desires it... I maaaaay occur that some kind of desire comes up inside me, but a) it takes long and intensive experiences to achieve this and b) it may just *plopp* dispell in an instant.

[Confusion 0]

Just now, Scottthespy said:

I think there's a distinction between 'wanting sex' for ulterior reasons, and actually wanting the sex just because you like having sex. If some one is willing to have sex with their sexual partners, or (like I was once) is simply curious to see what its like, or perhaps has even found that the act and the release is helping their health in some way, I would still mark those people as 'asexual', since the goal isn't the sex, its the fulfillment of a partner, or the knowledge, or the health benefits. Sex as a means to a desired end, that the asexual person would be just as happy to obtain through other methods if they were available. 

 

I do agree that 'wants sex just to have sex but is still asexual' is a confusing idea. If you still enjoy and actively seek out sex because you want to be having sex, then...why do you even need the distinction of 'asexuality'? Whether you feel attraction to the people you partner with or not, you're still out there, 'getting action' as the saying goes. No one is bugging you or asking for reasons why you aren't doing the thing...its like a person who only plays casual games like Candy Crush but insists "I'm not a gamer!". Whether you are or are not is inconsequential and doesn't really need a label or an explanation. You're doing a thing you enjoy, and no one or very few people are bothering you about it. Why the need to clarify that you aren't part of the group that also enjoys doing the thing? Used that way it almost sounds weirdly defensive. Why even look for a word that means 'not a gamer/not sexual' in the fist place?

Any conversation involving orientation, or "hot" celebrities, etc. get very awkward and complicated if I don't explain my sexuality to them. It does play a part in my life, espeically in social situations where it's assumed everyone is straight. I simply cannot relate to what they're talking about, and it's painfully obvious to everyone. I have to tell them eventually or they'll think I'm gay or something.

[Éowyn21]

13 minutes ago, Confusion 0 said:

I desire and enjoy sex. But during sex, I'm so clearly asexual it's painful. It's just another fun activity to me, like riding a bike.

List every common experience of asexuals, and I can relate to practically every single one of them. The only difference is I enjoy something most people here don't.

 

My choice in activities shouldn't define my orientation.

Could you elaborate on how you act asexual during sex? An individual's regular sexual choices are indicative  of their sexual orientation.  This is true when the behavior comes form an innate desire and not external factors like when asexual people feel pressure to have sex because of their partners or from society. Someone cannot say they are completely heterosexual, yet enjoy and actively seek sexual relations with the same sex.

[Enne Kristin]

1 minute ago, Éowyn21 said:

Could you elaborate on how you act asexual during sex?

I dare to answer this though the question was not directed to me... Acting asexual while "doing it" is weeeel, a strange idea - kinda whaaat... But speaking for myself, I just feel happy my spouse is having fun, been filled with pleasure, just feeling right and well. For me it is a good bodily feeling, but it is not thaaaaat different from "diy"... There is more romantic feeling, the joy of being together, them feeling good when wie have partnered sex. And I would not like to miss it... (And my desire maaay become quiet strong sometimes. this may come to a surprise for my spouse now and than...

[Confusion 0]

Just now, Éowyn21 said:

Could you elaborate on how you act asexual during sex? An individual's regular sexual choices are indicative  of their sexual orientation.  This is true when the behavior comes form an innate desire and not external factors like when asexual people feel pressure to have sex because of their partners or from society. Someone cannot say they are completely heterosexual, yet enjoy and actively seek sexual relations with the same sex.

Ok, but I might be going into TMI territory here.

 

I can get bored before I'm finished, and maintaining an erection requires me to be fully concentrating on what I'm doing. If my mind wanders from the actual sex in any way, my erection goes, and I have to play with myself to get it back. Everything except the climax can get slightly boring for me, too. The way I initiate sex too, I just express my desire to do it, really. Also, when I desire sex, quite often I'm not even aroused at all. It just seems like a fun activity at that point in time. I then have to become aroused to actually participate. These are just a few things about me which are typical indicators of being asexual.

[Éowyn21]

1 hour ago, Scottthespy said:

I think there's a distinction between 'wanting sex' for ulterior reasons, and actually wanting the sex just because you like having sex. If some one is willing to have sex with their sexual partners, or (like I was once) is simply curious to see what its like, or perhaps has even found that the act and the release is helping their health in some way, I would still mark those people as 'asexual', since the goal isn't the sex, its the fulfillment of a partner, or the knowledge, or the health benefits. Sex as a means to a desired end, that the asexual person would be just as happy to obtain through other methods if they were available. 

 

I do agree that 'wants sex just to have sex but is still asexual' is a confusing idea. If you still enjoy and actively seek out sex because you want to be having sex, then...why do you even need the distinction of 'asexuality'? Whether you feel attraction to the people you partner with or not, you're still out there, 'getting action' as the saying goes. No one is bugging you or asking for reasons why you aren't doing the thing...its like a person who only plays casual games like Candy Crush but insists "I'm not a gamer!". Whether you are or are not is inconsequential and doesn't really need a label or an explanation. You're doing a thing you enjoy, and no one or very few people are bothering you about it. Why the need to clarify that you aren't part of the group that also enjoys doing the thing? Used that way it almost sounds weirdly defensive. Why even look for a word that means 'not a gamer/not sexual' in the fist place?

I'm aware that asexual people can choose to engage in sexual relations as a means to an end, such as comprise with a partner or procreation.  However, those are extrinsic motivators.  Wanting to have sex for the sake of it is the complete opposite of asexuality. 

[Enne Kristin]

20 minutes ago, Confusion 0 said:

Any conversation involving orientation, or "hot" celebrities,

Ohhh, I know this I remember conversations where I came up with persons whom I was aestheticly attracted to and it were persons like the actress of Mourning Myrtle, Lesley Winkle or - as until now... - the actress of Dax from DS9... Some folks even lifted an eyebrow when I told them Ewan McGregor, Cumberbatch or John Simm were aestheticly attractive for me I guess they really think I am "a bit gay" or bi... (In Germany we have a saying: "Ein bisschen Bi schadet nie" )

[Éowyn21]

1 hour ago, Confusion 0 said:

Ok, but I might be going into TMI territory here.

 

I can get bored before I'm finished, and maintaining an erection requires me to be fully concentrating on what I'm doing. If my mind wanders from the actual sex in any way, my erection goes, and I have to play with myself to get it back. Everything except the climax can get slightly boring for me, too. The way I initiate sex too, I just express my desire to do it, really. Also, when I desire sex, quite often I'm not even aroused at all. It just seems like a fun activity at that point in time. I then have to become aroused to actually participate. These are just a few things about me which are typical indicators of being asexual.

Ohh I see, but a lot you're saying sounds like how a sexual person who happens to not be that into sex compared to others would behave. 

[Member4445]

I enjoy sex. It can be fun. Being sex-favourable is a thing. I draw the line at actively seeking it out, however I am happy to have it if it comes and pokes me in the face. (Mainly cause I absolutely suck at getting myself off.) 

 

However, there's a limit for me. The more sex I have, the more it effects my mental health. It is in no way a sustainable regular activity for me. Not due to low sex drive but due to the act itself. I compare it to how a lesbian would feel having sex regularly with a man. 

 

~Sex Favourable ~ Still Asexual ~

[Confusion 0]

Just now, Éowyn21 said:

Ohh I see, but a lot you're saying sounds like how a  sexual person who happens to not that into sex compared to others would behave. 

I would agree, only I am still very into sex. It's really fun. I just don't "get" a lot of sexual things, and I'm not fully "into" the sex, even though I very much enjoy it. I get distracted by things, and sometimes I even start talking, and my partner has to remind me to shut up...

 

It's just like a really fun hobby to me. I'm just not exactly a natural, if that makes sense.

[straightouttamordor]

Here Here ! On this topic. The spectrum is broad as hell. Trying to be inclusive is counter productive sometimes. If you had a Ballet Studio and old execs in green plaid pants were driving golf balls with slippers and leotards and not doing perouettes would it still be Ballet ?

[Member4445]

As a side note, welcome to Aven. I'd like to draw your attention to this thread which is Avens official stance on the matter. 

 

 

[Pramana]

It is difficult to say that asexual people can't obtain intrinsic goods from partnered sex. Since many asexuals can enjoy the physical sensations associated with sexual touching, it's likely they could also obtain at least some intrinsic goods in a partnered context. The example I like to use is that a person who experiences sexual desire but who doesn't experience sexual attraction would be like a person who gets hungry but has no favourite foods. That person would be different from other sexual people, and for the most part probably wouldn't have the same motivation to seek out partnered sexual contact (on account of not finding anyone attractive).

[Éowyn21]

3 hours ago, Confusion 0 said:

I would agree, only I am still very into sex. It's really fun. I just don't "get" a lot of sexual things, and I'm not fully "into" the sex, even though I very much enjoy it. I get distracted by things, and sometimes I even start talking, and my partner has to remind me to shut up...

 

It's just like a really fun hobby to me. I'm just not exactly a natural, if that makes sense.

I'm sorry but that fact you are very into sex clearly indicates you are not asexual. Asexuality is the lack of desire to engage in sex with others. In the OP, I said the definition of lacking sexual attraction was clear enough, but apparently it's not and should be changed to the aforementioned definition. People have distorted the meaning of sexual attraction on this site. It is essentially the same thing as sexual desire. You can not separate the two things.  The AVEN website even defines it this way officially. Asexuality/Sexuality exists on a sprectrum of sexual desire in of itself, who you desire is a separate matter.  If you do not want to have sex whatsoever, then you are asexual and at one end of the sprectrum. If you do want to have sex, then you are sexual and exist on the other end of the sprectrum. Defining your sexual orientation, who you are attracted to, exists on a separate axis. You can be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual. Pansexual would be mean you have no preference and just desire sexual relationships. Bottom line is you do not need to look at people and automatically want to have sex with them based on appearance to be sexual. If this was the case, far more people would be considered asexual.

[Éowyn21]

13 hours ago, Pramana said:

It is difficult to say that asexual people can't obtain intrinsic goods from partnered sex. Since many asexuals can enjoy the physical sensations associated with sexual touching, it's likely they could also obtain at least some intrinsic goods in a partnered context. The example I like to use is that a person who experiences sexual desire but who doesn't experience sexual attraction would be like a person who gets hungry but has no favourite foods. That person would be different from other sexual people, and for the most part probably wouldn't have the same motivation to seek out partnered sexual contact (on account of not finding anyone attractive).

If someone desires sex for the sake of sex, then that person is not asexual. Sex could feel pleasurable to anyone on a purely physiological level, yet asexuals still would not experience an urge to engage in it regardless of whether they find it physically pleasurable or not. 

[Pramana]

17 minutes ago, Éowyn21 said:

If someone desires sex for the sake of sex, then that person is not asexual. Sex could  feel pleasurable to anyone on a purely physiological level, yet asexuals still would not experience an urge to engage in it regardless of whether they find it physically pleasurable or not. 

It is widely accepted that a lesbian can desire sex with men and still be a lesbian. Orientations are defined by preferences (often exhibited through fantasies) rather than desires. Granted, lesbians are probably on average significantly less likely to desire sex with men because they're not attracted to men, but that doesn't mean they can't desire sex with men (and theoretically speaking you could have a lesbian with a high libido who desires frequent partnered sex regardless of gender). In the same sort of way, asexuals are significantly less likely to desire partnered sex because they don't find anyone attractive, but that doesn't mean that they can't desire partnered sex.

[Pramana]

2 hours ago, Éowyn21 said:

I'm sorry but that fact you are very into sex clearly indicates you are not asexual. Asexuality is the lack of desire to engage in sex with others. In the OP, I said the definition of lacking sexual attraction was clear enough, but apparently it's not and should be changed to the aforementioned definition. People have distorted the meaning of sexual attraction on this site. It is essentially the same thing as sexual desire. You can not separate the two things.  The AVEN website even defines it this way officially. Asexuality/Sexuality exists on a sprectrum of sexual desire in of itself, who you desire is a separate matter.  If you do not want to have sex whatsoever, then you are asexual and at one end of the sprectrum. If you do want to have sex, then you are sexual and exist on the other end of the sprectrum. Defining your sexual orientation, who you are attracted to, exists on a separate axis. You can be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual. Pansexual would be mean you have no preference and just desire sexual relationships. Bottom line is you do not need to look at people and automatically want to have sex with them based on appearance to be sexual. If this was the case, far more people would be considered asexual.

I'm afraid this is simply inaccurate. No one in the published literature defines sexual attraction to be the same thing as sexual desire. Otherwise, why would they use two different concepts? It wouldn't make sense. Plus, you appear to be contradicting yourself as you first say that sexual attraction and desire are essentially the same thing, but you then go on to say that attraction defines sexual orientations which couldn't be true if they were the same thing.

Here's a thread where I elaborate on this:
 

 

[Pramana]

1 hour ago, Éowyn21 said:

 Bottom line is you do not need to look at people and automatically want to have sex with them based on appearance to be sexual. If this was the case, far more people would be considered asexual.

Also, I have no idea what you're talking about here. I have never heard of anyone just looking at people and wanting to have sex with them right then and there. Usually, a lot of other factors have to be in place before someone actually wants to have sex with another person.

[Pramana]

5 hours ago, Éowyn21 said:

Thank you for the cake haha!  For me, I understand and relate with the concept of being asexual and having a libido to the extent of masturbating or watching  pornography because that does not involve sharing one's sexuality with others. 

What do you mean by sharing one's sexuality with others? If you watch pornography and masturbate, it seems like you're expressing sexual desire for the people you're viewing and you find them attractive. If not, why would you watch it?
 

5 hours ago, Éowyn21 said:

Could you elaborate on how you act asexual during sex? An individual's regular sexual choices are indicative  of their sexual orientation.  This is true when the behavior comes form an innate desire and not external factors like when asexual people feel pressure to have sex because of their partners or from society. Someone cannot say they are completely heterosexual, yet enjoy and actively seek sexual relations with the same sex.

This is false. There's no reason someone cannot seek out sex with people they're not attracted too. Think about heterosexual men in prison who have sex with other men. Surely they're still heterosexual.

If you're interested in more information, I would suggest Anthony F. Bogaert's book Understanding Asexuality. It's a great resource that I think will clarify matters for you! 

[Éowyn21]

11 hours ago, Pramana said:

What do you mean by sharing one's sexuality with others? If you watch pornography and masturbate, it seems like you're expressing sexual desire for the people you're viewing and you find them attractive. If not, why would you watch it?
 

This is false. There's no reason someone cannot seek out sex with people they're not attracted too. Think about heterosexual men in prison who have sex with other men. Surely they're still heterosexual.

If you're interested in more information, I would suggest Anthony F. Bogaert's book Understanding Asexuality. It's a great resource that I think will clarify matters for you! 

When I talk about an individual not "wanting to share their sexuality", I mean not wanting to have sex with others. You can experience sexual arousal without having a desire to express that arousal through sexual relations with other people.  Moreover,  often when asexual people watch porn, they're watching in a third person POV  and do not desire to have sex with the people they're watching. They don't want to participate, they're just turned on by what they're seeing.  Bogaerts described it as autocorisexual. It's also called voyerism.

 

As for prison rape, well that's rape which is about violence not necessarily sexual attraction/desire. If the acts are consensual as in both participants desire to have sex with each other, then I would not  consider them to be 100% heterosexual, I don't think others would either. It's understandable since sexuality is on sprectrum. 

[Éowyn21]

3 hours ago, Pramana said:

I'm afraid this is simply inaccurate. No one in the published literature defines sexual attraction to be the same thing as sexual desire. Otherwise, why would they use two different concepts? It wouldn't make sense. Plus, you appear to be contradicting yourself as you first say that sexual attraction and desire are essentially the same thing, but you then go on to say that attraction defines sexual orientations which couldn't be true if they were the same thing.

Here's a thread where I elaborate on this:
 

 

From AVEN:

Sexual attraction: Desire to have sexual contact with someone else, to share our sexuality with them.

 

It clearly defines sexual attraction as being sexual desire. I'm not sure how you can interpret them has being separate concepts. I can easily say attraction defines sexual orientation because it does. There's no contradiction here. Being asexual or sexual is simply a matter of whether or not you desire sex. It is not an orientation in of itself, but it's convenient to understand it that way since it's not a choice. If you're asexual, then the matter ends there,  you do not desire sex. If you're sexual that means you desire sex, then subsequently the next question is what gender that sexual desire is towards meaning what is the  orientation. 

Also from AVEN: 

Attraction
Many asexual people experience attraction, but we feel no need to act out that attraction sexually. Instead we feel a desire to get to know someone, to get close to them in whatever way works best for us. Asexual people who experience attraction will often be attracted to a particular gender, and will identify as lesbian, gay, bi, or straight.

Arousal
For some sexual arousal is a fairly regular occurrence, though it is not associated with a desire to find a sexual partner or partners. Some will occasionally masturbate, but feel no desire for partnered sexuality. Other asexual people experience little or no arousal. Because we don’t care about sex, asexual people generally do not see a lack of sexual arousal as a problem to be corrected, and focus their energy on enjoying other types of arousal and pleasure.

 

Sexual attraction is sexual desire. It is not possible to experience sexual desire without attraction, because attraction is implicit in what it means to have sexual desire. The two are entangled together. You can't say "I have a desire to have sex with this person, but I'm not sexually attracted to him/her". It's like saying "I have a desire to eat chocolate, but chocolate is not appealing to me". Or "drinking liquor is not appealing to me, but I have a desire to get drunk". It makes absolutely no sense. 

I'm tired of people twisting the meaning of sexual attraction, just so they can have a label for themselves. If someone claims they are asexual, yet actively seeks and desires sex, then their supposed  identity as an asexual is completely inconsequential and pointless. It makes defining asexuality more confusing than necessary, and these so called "hypersexual asexuals" take up room from people who are an actual minority and need representation.

[Éowyn21]

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