Are Liberals Evil? (Title is slightly sarcastic.)

[m4rble]

Just now, Maou-sama said:

Yeah, that's why the hate Corperations more right?

They think corporations should be regulated because otherwise they will poison the environment, treat workers unethically, and release products that are dangerous for consumers. Additionally, corporate monopolies are not great for the economy. 

[Yatogami]

3 minutes ago, m4rble said:

They think corporations should be regulated because otherwise they will poison the environment, treat workers unethically, and release products that are dangerous for consumers. Additionally, corporate monopolies are not great for the economy. 

I agree monopolies should be prevented. But regulations is a double edge sword. Too much and you cause inflation and weaken spending power on top of wrecking the economy. Too little and you got loads of problems that put people's lives at risk. More regulations also create more devious methods until they become illegal etc. Its corperate natural selection.

 

Its better to be as moderate as possible.

[m4rble]

1 minute ago, Maou-sama said:

Same thing with bigot and racist.

 

I feel that most people who support socialism, have no idea what it actually is. They most likely just support social safety nets.

Yup, I blame fox news(among other things) for calling everything it doesn't like socialism or communism.

 

4 minutes ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

 

Also there are issues with each European countries I can't be expected to debate every single one, but as a whole the economies do suffer from large taxes on these countries compared to America's much lower taxes.

 

Would you like to make a thread debating or discussing neoliberalism and its evil ways? 

 

I'd take the problems with large taxes over the problems with people not getting health insurance and living in poverty. 

[Yatogami]

Just now, m4rble said:

Yup, I blame fox news(among other things) for calling everything it doesn't like socialism or communism.

 

I'd take the problems with large taxes over the problems with people not getting health insurance and living in poverty. 

Having insurace doesnt mean your getting care. 

 

The health costs in usa are inflated due to a slew of problems that no insurace will fix. Its the medical and pharama, along with patents and monopolies that inflate the cost. 

[m4rble]

2 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

I agree monopolies should be prevented. But regulations is a double edge sword. Too much and you cause inflation and weaken spending power on top of wrecking the economy. Too little and you got loads of problems that put people's lives at risk. So more regulations creat more devious methods until they become illegal etc. Its corperate evolution. Its better to be as moderate as possible.

Inflation is a sign of a healthy economy. If there's no inflation or deflation that means you're in trouble. Of course, there is a such thing as too much inflation. 

[m4rble]

Just now, Maou-sama said:

Having insurace doesnt mean your getting care. 

 

The health costs in usa are inflated due to a slew of problems that no insurace will fix. Its the medical and pharama, along with patents and monopolies that inflate the cost. 

Which just shows that corporations need regulation. 

[Still]

6 minutes ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

 

Would you like to make a thread debating or discussing neoliberalism and its evil ways? 

I've thought about it, but not many people would probably post in it.

 

The way this conversation is going is relevant though, because neoliberals love corporations and letting them run amok, and that certainly has never led to anything bad...

[m4rble]

1 minute ago, Still said:

I've thought about it, but not many people would probably post in it.

 

The way this conversation is going is relevant though, because neoliberals love corporations and letting them run amok, and that certainly has never led to anything bad...

Could you describe these, "neoliberals". 

[Still]

2 minutes ago, m4rble said:

Could you describe these, "neoliberals". 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

3 minutes ago, Still said:

I've thought about it, but not many people would probably post in it.

 

The way this conversation is going is relevant though, because neoliberals love corporations and letting them run amok, and that certainly has never led to anything bad...

I would post in it, I'm about to go on vacation so maybe not this week but I defiantly don't mind discussing the issues surrounding Neoliberalism 

[m4rble]

4 minutes ago, Still said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

From what I read, I'm not a fan. 

[Yatogami]

20 minutes ago, m4rble said:

Which just shows that corporations need regulation. 

Not exactly that easy. Regulations cause costs to go up. The problem isn't in their capabilities or product production (which is what regulations affect), the problem lies in patents and monopolies. You can't stop them, unless you make it easier for competition to arise. Regulations create monopolies, because of "too big to fail" corperations are the only thing that can stay open no matter the costs. Then these big corperations benefit from more regulations, because they strangle the small companies trying to compete with them.

[Yatogami]

20 minutes ago, Still said:

I've thought about it, but not many people would probably post in it.

 

The way this conversation is going is relevant though, because neoliberals love corporations and letting them run amok, and that certainly has never led to anything bad...

What do Neoliberals do for corperations?

[Still]

4 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

What do Neoliberals do for corperations?

 

Try to limit regulations as much as possible, try to privatize as much as possible, create free trade agreements such as NAFTA, etc.

[Yatogami]

Just now, Still said:

 

Try to limit regulations as much as possible, create free trade agreements such as NAFTA, etc.

That is a bad thing how?

 

Check  I said to m4rble about regulations. They don't create monopolies (corpratism). So why is it a bad thing? Deregulations would never be like they are in China, in the USA. Because our market competes.

[Still]

Deregulation and free trade agreements have directly led to the erosion of workers' rights and the offshoring of jobs to China, India and other countries with cheap labor, amongst other things.

 

(I don't think this discussion really belongs in this thread anymore, so either it should be split off or the title should be changed to "Are (Neo)Liberals Evil?" )

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

1 minute ago, Still said:

(I don't think this discussion really belongs in this thread anymore, so either it should be split off or the title should be changed to "Are (Neo)Liberals Evil?" )

I like the name. 

[Yatogami]

15 minutes ago, Still said:

Deregulation and free trade agreements have directly led to the erosion of workers' rights and the offshoring of jobs to China, India and other countries with cheap labor, amongst other things.

 

(I don't think this discussion really belongs in this thread anymore, so either it should be split off or the title should be changed to "Are (Neo)Liberals Evil?" )

Worker's rights are unrelated to regulations. But if you want to keep jobs in your country, you have to relax some rights. You can't have all jobs be pleasant with paid vacations etc. That's just stupid. You do your work, get paid. How much you get paid, is determined by how hard you work, and how hard the work is. Entitlement is literally cancer. Thats what Baby boomers had too much of, and it strangled everything.

[CaptainYesterday]

16 hours ago, daveb said:

Biased much?

It's simple probability based on the politics of Canada.

 

ThoughI should have said "Progressive" instead of "Liberal."  I'm fancying trying to take back "Liberal."

[Still]

10 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

Worker's rights are unrelated to regulations.

Not really as long as companies are allowed to do stuff like exploit unpaid internships and claim your workers are in fact "independent contractors" like Uber (a dangerous precedent which will spread to other jobs as well if neoliberals get to have their way).

 

10 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

 

But if you want to keep jobs in your country, you have to relax some rights. You can't have all jobs be pleasant with paid vacations etc. That's just stupid. You do your work, get paid. How much you get paid, is determined by how hard you work, and how hard the work is. Entitlement is literally cancer. Thats what Baby boomers had too much of, and it strangled everything.

No, if you want to keep jobs in the West, you have to pressure companies to do it. As much as neoliberals would love for Western workers to have as few rights as Chinese ones, that's not going to happen...for now, at least, so there's no competing with China when it comes to labor costs.

[Yatogami]

24 minutes ago, Still said:

Not really as long as companies are allowed to do stuff like exploit unpaid internships and claim your workers are in fact "independent contractors" like Uber (a dangerous precedent which will spread to other jobs as well if neoliberals get to have their way).

 

No, if you want to keep jobs in the West, you have to pressure companies to do it. As much as neoliberals would love for Western workers to have as few rights as Chinese ones, that's not going to happen...for now, at least, so there's no competing with China when it comes to labor costs.

Corperations would not use loopholes if there wasn't such tight regulations and more competition. Corperations function like pressure, regulations increase the psi. That pressure will find a weakness in the system and escape. That's why its better to release it in a controlled manner, than forcing them to find all the flaws in the system. A known controlled evil is safer than a new and unpredictable one. 

 

Not true. People will pay for quality. Are you happy with hireing slaves as long as they are not in your country? There are ways to lower costs outside of production.

[Still]

6 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

 

Not true. People will pay for quality. Are you happy with hireing slaves as long as they are not in your country? There are ways to lower costs outside of production.

That's not what I meant at all, what I meant was there's no competing with a country where people work for pennies for 12 hours a day and the only benefits they get are suicide nets outside the window. I don't think a race to the bottom would be good for anyone.

 

I don't know about people wanting to pay for quality either, when it comes to consumer products most people seem to have the "Well, it's cheap, I'll just buy another one if it breaks" attitude.

[Yatogami]

30 minutes ago, Still said:

That's not what I meant at all, what I meant was there's no competing with a country where people work for pennies for 12 hours a day and the only benefits they get are suicide nets outside the window. I don't think a race to the bottom would be good for anyone.

 

I don't know about people wanting to pay for quality either, when it comes to consumer products most people seem to have the "Well, it's cheap, I'll just buy another one if it breaks" attitude.

Ok, so you say we can't compete and should just accept the fact that most production jobs will be outsourced. So why not raise import taxes? That money goes into the government, then can be channeled into subsidies that can create more jobs to counter the growing unemployment rate due to outsourcing. Buying Local will be cheaper than buying foreign products. Then the country wins, and not outsiders.

 

Look, we solved the problem without increasing regulations.

[ThaHoward]

2 hours ago, m4rble said:

If you want an example of universal healthcare,a suitable social safety net  and affordable college that works, look to Europe. We're not imitating communist Russia. 

You mean capitalist Europe? The only country that may still be socialist is Moldovia. And it is not going well to put it blunt. 

[Still]

8 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

Ok, so you say we can't compete and should just accept the fact that most production jobs will be outsourced. So why not raise import taxes? That money goes into the government, then can be channeled into subsidies that can create more jobs to counter the growing unemployment rate due to outsourcing. Buying Local will be cheaper than buying foreign products. Then the country wins, and not outsiders.

 

Look, we solved the problem without increasing regulations.

This is one way of pressuring corporations. Only problem is that a neoliberal would rather eat their own ass than suggest the government do something that'd inconvenience a corporation in any way.

[m4rble]

Just now, ThaHoward said:

You mean capitalist Europe? The only country that may still be socialist is Moldovia. And it is not going well to put it blunt. 

My point was never that it was socialist, I was talking about what liberals want. 

[ThaHoward]

1 hour ago, Still said:

Deregulation and free trade agreements have directly led to the erosion of workers' rights and the offshoring of jobs to China, India and other countries with cheap labor, amongst other things.

 

(I don't think this discussion really belongs in this thread anymore, so either it should be split off or the title should be changed to "Are (Neo)Liberals Evil?" )

That would have happened eitherway. Still the worker's rights and way of living have increased greatly the last decades both before and after this mythical neoliberalism. Free-trade have also tied to world together nad have lifted millions out of poverty. Yes it's not a flawless system, but it is much better than the systems that were preceding it. 

 

I agree monopolies should be prevented. But regulations is a double edge sword. Too much and you cause inflation and weaken spending power on top of wrecking the economy. Too little and you got loads of problems that put people's lives at risk. More regulations also create more devious methods until they become illegal etc. Its corperate natural selection.

 

Its better to be as moderate as possible.

More regulation can also lead to less inflation? I don't see how regulation in itself lead to inflation. 

[Yatogami]

2 minutes ago, ThaHoward said:

More regulation can also lead to less inflation? I don't see how regulation in itself lead to inflation. 

Think along the lines of how much it costs to do a single regulation change. For example, the FDA bans a cheap chemical commonly used in food. Those companies that use it must now find an alternative that is most likely more expensive, pay to change all labels and info on their product, advertise the alternative, and pray to god it tastes the same and people. It can costs millions to do so. So they increase the price of their product, which was also just affected by production price increase for the more expensive alternative.

[ThaHoward]

But that is a specific regulation.. That is not regulation in general. If one do contractive financial politics and/or do inflation reducing or controlling monetary policies, for example increasing rent, the inflation will have a lower increase. So I still don't see how regulations in general increase inflation. Read yourself up on inflation and economical policies first. 

[m4rble]

5 minutes ago, Maou-sama said:

Think along the lines of how much it costs to do a single regulation change. For example, the FDA bans a cheap chemical commonly used in food. Those companies that use it must now find an alternative that is most likely more expensive, pay to change all labels and info on their product, advertise the alternative, and pray to god it tastes the same and people. It can costs millions to do so. So they increase the price of their product, which was also just affected by production price increase for the more expensive alternative.

There are things they pump into American food that would never be allowed elsewhere. It's disturbing.