How To Have Sex With an Asexual (article)

[Guest]

No offense meant, Mysti.. But this sounds like exactly the experience of someone who's denying themselves deep down, and who needs to continuously make a conscious effort to repress that self. And I don't necessarily mean this as criticism, because sometimes being yourself is simply not possible in this society. Personally I've simply made a choice of prioritizing myself over society's ideas.

None taken. You're not the first to say that, and my reaction is always the same: "Sounds plausible, but I don't believe it." :)

[Guest]

but mostly, telling your partner that there's something they do that you don't like, makes you jealous, hurts your feelings, etc, is emotional blackmail. The other person then has to change who they are as a person or get into a fight with you

I don't think it's an either/or though.

(And Skulls... a few days ago you posted about how every few months, you had a version of The Talk with your partner. Isn't that doing exactly what you're saying is coercive now?)

Same with saying what 's on your mind. Generally my thought process is "There's [thing I want to say]. Is it reasonable to say it? Will it help? What's the most helpful way I can put it out there?". It's not all or nothing.

I fall somewhere in the middle of our two posts, tbh. It wasn't my intention to make such a blanket statement, because of course talking about things and voicing one's issues is a necessary component to relationships. However, I err far more to the side of "this is my problem and ideally I will solve it within myself" than other people do.

There are two issues in my relationship that may be illustrative...

1) I am very solitary and my partner isn't. She doesn't understand me needing alone time... she says "I would always rather be with you", and so to her, the corollary is that since I don't always want to be with her, I care about her less. This isn't true and we've discussed it, but it was an issue for many years. About a year ago she started making a real effort not to guilt trip me whenever I wanted alone time (this mostly comes in the form of me taking the dog into the woods for a handful of hours). Then she found an article about people who need to spend time alone and it really helped. She started noticing that I'm happier and more engaged after I get some alone time... that restricting it makes me unhappy and unpleasant to be around. So, she has taken steps to realize that her negative feelings about my alone time are HER problem, not MY problem, and that even mentioning them to me is hurtful and harmful and coercive because it makes me avoid the time I really need to take.

2) Again, I'm a solitary person and not social at all. I'm good with people but I really don't enjoy it, so mostly I meet her friends once or twice and that's it. Never go out with them or see them again. Since my partner is social, she goes out and drinks with her friends a few times a week, and I do get jealous sometimes. They get drunk, they make out and play around and flirt with people at the bar and all that stuff. I have no issue with that, except that I do sometimes get jealous that I'm not getting those fun experiences and she doesn't have any memories of me associated with those fun experiences. However, my feelings are my problem, not hers. I would stab myself in the gut before I ever, EVER told her that sometimes I feel left out or jealous.

So, like, talk about stuff, sure. But once it's discussed, don't keep harping on it. And if the thing that's hurting you is something that brings the other person joy or is something that they absolutely have a right to partake in, then keep your mouth shut and work on whatever is going on in your brain to make you want to restrict your partner's perfectly reasonable freedom.

[Sally]

Aside from the thoroughly-interesting-but-mostly-unread discussion above, I stopped reading the article at this point: "But sometimes, some of us do want to have sex. Sometimes, we can even enthusiastically want it."

If "some of us" means asexuals, no. If that's true, "some of us" are actually sexuals.

[Telecaster68]

And also a split infinitive, but I'm trying to not get so wound up by those....

[Guest]

Aside from the thoroughly-interesting-but-mostly-unread discussion above, I stopped reading the article at this point: "But sometimes, some of us do want to have sex. Sometimes, we can even enthusiastically want it."

If "some of us" means asexuals, no. If that's true, "some of us" are actually sexuals.

Yeah, it's rather contradictory to the rest of the article, which suggests that merely looking an asexual directly in the eye is so coercive that they may fuck you because they just can't say no... and that they're so nonsexual that they don't even understand how to turn down sex or what flirting looks like.

Except for those asexuals who love sex, obviously.

[Autumn Season]

I agree that the article could have been better written. (It does make sexuals sound bad and aces dumb.) All in all though, I agree with the points the author made. Especially these two:

- NEVER rely solely on non-verbal communication.

- If your partner physically removes your hand from somewhere, DO NOT PUT IT BACK.

My experience tells me that a lot of people should learn this.

[Telecaster68]

In the context of a longstanding relationship, living together etc, verbally gaining enthusiastic consent when there's been ongoing sex would seem very odd.

[Guest]

That "enthusiastic" bit actually was the one thing I stumbled over when I read it. But as she said something directly afterwards which I wholeheartedly agree with, and which I have repeatedly criticized in discussions about consent, myself:

(although using enthusiasm as the only indicator of good consent is problematic for asexuals)

...I had been ready to basically go "huh, well, okay I guess?" and read on.

Because, really... screw the "enthusiastic consent" dogma. Sex-negative BS, in my not so humble opinion.

[Autumn Season]

In the context of a longstanding relationship, living together etc, verbally gaining enthusiastic consent when there's been ongoing sex would seem very odd.

Agreed. I guess I don't see the article as talking about longstanding relationships.

[Philip027]

I remember seeing that before, and I pretty much had the same reaction to it that Skullery did, although maybe a bit less extreme. I also got the vibe that it's painting aces as delicate victim flowers and sexuals as mindless rape machines, whether that was its intention or not.

I don't ever ask myself "Would it be rude / immoral to say / do such and such?". I ask myself whether it would be a genuine expression of myself.

The former is something that I've had issue with throughout my life, possibly due to my Asperger's (at least, I'm told that this is something that Aspies can have trouble with). While I am thankful to mostly have the guts to say whatever it is I think, it still would sure be nice to at least have a better idea of when I'd be stepping on toes, because I'm not always aware of that and it's led to some very confusing moments.

[HighDrive]

First: Wrong title as it assumes there is a secret way to get an ace to have sex with you.

Second: I would sumarize as 2 step process

1) Don't ever assume you will

2) Have a healthy relationship with proper communication

[Tarfeather]

I don't ever ask myself "Would it be rude / immoral to say / do such and such?". I ask myself whether it would be a genuine expression of myself.

The former is something that I've had issue with throughout my life, possibly due to my Asperger's (at least, I'm told that this is something that Aspies can have trouble with). While I am thankful to mostly have the guts to say whatever it is I think, it still would sure be nice to at least have a better idea of when I'd be stepping on toes, because I'm not always aware of that and it's led to some very confusing moments.

I honestly think it's the "normal" people who are batshit insane. People I've met who claimed to have "Aspergers", usually are just people who are honest and direct about their feelings, and don't coat what they say in ten layers of indirection and hidden meaning. I'm probably actually criminally incompatible with people who don't have "Aspergers".

[Guest]

First: Wrong title as it assumes there is a secret way to get an ace to have sex with you.

Second: I would sumarize as 2 step process

1) Don't ever assume you will

2) Have a healthy relationship with proper communication

I could agree with that just fine, and (apparently mis)read the article as doing excatly that, just with a far longer string of words (something which I'm very liable to do myself, so I guess like and like enjoyed company :D ).

Seeing as many folks by now have pointed out major flaws of it in this thread, I'm also fine with correcting my perception on that first impresion.

[Tarfeather]

Yes, the person writing that article was really confused, almost in a way that may seem malicious to us sexuals in a mixed relationship situation. Like, they seem to fail to realize, that with all the assumptions and requirements they're putting up, a lot of people, myself included, aren't going to be interested in sex anymore anyway.

Like, you expect me to not be interested in sex, except once in a blue moon when you're enthusiastic about it, and then I'm also suddenly supposed to be enthusiastic? **** that. I'd rather have no sex at all.

Sure am glad that's not how it works in my relationship..

[Guest]

Yes, the person writing that article was really confused, almost in a way that may seem malicious to us sexuals in a mixed relationship situation.

I love how you used "almost" and "may seem" here. No, honestly, I do.

You folks have more or less convinced me this article is nowhere as good as I thought on first reading, but I don't see any reason to believe it wasn't written with the best, sincerest, and most un-malicious of intentions.

[Tarfeather]

Yes, the person writing that article was really confused, almost in a way that may seem malicious to us sexuals in a mixed relationship situation.

I love how you used "almost" and "may seem" here. No, honestly, I do.

You folks have more or less convinced me this article is nowhere as good as I thought on first reading, but I don't see any reason to believe it wasn't written with the best, sincerest, and most un-malicious of intentions.

Me neither, which is why I used that exact phrasing. Hanlon's razor still applies.

[PeterPanForever]

I would say,

Step 1: Ask yourself what's the point?

Step 2: If it is intimacy and sensuality then let's take a bubble bath instead, order up some Chinese, and watch a little British romance

Step 3: Climb into bed butt-ass naked, one on top, one on bottom, the person on the bottom lightly rubs and scratches the back of the person on top while the person on top tells their partner what they would want to do next week if money weren't an object and the sky was the limit, and after a half hour or so switch places. Upper back, shoulders, sides, lower back, light touches, as she speaks to you of her wishes, dreams, and desires, respond with a soft, tender caress, being fully in the moment....

Step 4: If you're anything like me, you'll be praising God that you got to share an intimate moment with another loving soul, skin on skin, and without the presumption that the only way to make love to your lover is through penetration

[Telecaster68]

Step 5: Ask yourself again, what was the point of all that?

[PeterPanForever]

Intimacy.

It's kind of ironic, unfortunate, that the shift towards sexual freedom has also led to our collective culture ab-using it by turning sex into something extremely egocentric, about me and my needs. It's ironic, the extreme fluctuations between sexual repression and sexual saturation, within a cultural context.

A person can say well sexuality is about intimacy as well, and I guess that it can be, but it can also be about dominance, compulsiveness, and a myriad of other things that have next to nothing to do with the "toy" you are using to amuse yourself. I do believe in an "innocent" and loving sexuality, no doubt, but I am also aware of the other side, and the internal, archaic, power struggle. That's what we have concluded regarding rape in the first place, that it has very little to do with sexual desire, and very much to do with power and dominance.

[Tarfeather]

Even with me being sympathetic with anti-sexual views for the most part, the way you put that kind of bothers me..

[Telecaster68]

I guess that it can be

Not just can be. Mostly is. Intimacy is not an edge-case for sex, outside of AVEN.

You know my previous post was ironic, don't you?

[PeterPanForever]

I hope that you don't see me as anti-sexual. I don't think I'm anti-sexual.

[PeterPanForever]

I guess that it can be

Not just can be. Mostly is. Intimacy is not an edge-case for sex, outside of AVEN.

You know my previous post was ironic, don't you?

What do you mean that intimacy is not an edge-case outside of AVEN? Are you saying that within the sexual realm sex itself IS a pure expression of intimacy, and intimacy is only a problem within the asexual community? Your reply went over my head because I don't understand the concept of the edge-case. I do believe though that within the realm of asexuality many people hunger for intimacy, and they may not find it in sexuality, and maybe even before sex is introduced at all the asexual person should become comfortable with intimacy itself, with closeness to another human being, and with the naked flesh, without sex even being on the table at all. I strongly believe that intimacy should not be used synonymously with sexuality. My own solution to the asexual-sexual dilemma is compatibility. I do have a bias though, I will say that, and my bias is this, why can't an asexual person just have an asexual yet intimate and sensual relationship with someone without it having to lead to sex? This isn't anti-sexual sentiment, it's compatibility. Sexual individuals can have sex til the cows come home, I could care less, but why can't the asexual personality experience intimacy and sensuality, without having to compromise to sexuality?

[PeterPanForever]

The article was just a difficult read for me is all. The only way I can read it is hypothetically. Why is this person wanting to have sex with this other person who doesn't fully want to engage in it. Why does this person feel like they need to resort to manipulation, like a lock and key. Why can't there be a space where the asexual can experience intimacy and sensuality without having to compromise themselves. The entire article reeked of a power structure. Just another one for the team.

[PeterPanForever]

Even with me being sympathetic with anti-sexual views for the most part, the way you put that kind of bothers me..

Tell me what bothered you. I would genuinely like to know. Was it that I sounded anti-sexual, or was it my personal idea and I guess interpretation of what companionate intimacy could be for the asexual personality?

[Guest]

Why is this person wanting to have sex with this other person who doesn't fully want to engage in it.

Why not? if they're sexuals, it's only natural for them to want sex with someone they are in a close, intimate relationship with.

Why does this person feel like they need to resort to manipulation, like a lock and key. Why can't there be a space where the asexual can experience intimacy and sensuality without having to compromise themselves. The entire article reeked of a power structure. Just another one for the team.

I read it as a guide how to avoid such a power structure, and keep a loving relationship with or without sex ensuing.

I have to say one thing, though... there was a link in it to another blog describing power structures and privilege in mixed 'ships, which insinuated that the sexual is always in the privileged situation. As someone who was the ace partner in a mixed 'ship, I find that claim ridiculous. You bet that I was in the better/"privileged" situation, not R.. I got just about everything I want out of the relationship; R. had to settle for some of her desires going unfulfilled. I had the full right to exercise my "right of no", which R. would never, ever, ever, in a million years, have contested; she knew that her hope for a yes was a merely theoretical thing that would simply not happen in actuality.

There is no freaking doubt who was the "privileged" person there, and it wasn't the "horny respectless sexual" (there was no such person, and if anyone insinuates R. would fit that description, I'll rip'em a new one - you don't get to talk about the gal I loved, and still love, in such a way. Not to my face, at least.). The "privileged" person is the one profiting from the guaranteed and inalienable right to veto acces to their body; and while both of us had that right, I was the one who consistently made use of it.

[PeterPanForever]

I really like that term 'mixed-ships'. I also liked your post, but I must say, I can't do it. I will not let myself get close to a sexual person ever again, and I feel like it would be enormously irresponsible of me, and extremely unfair to them. I avoided the opposite sex for nearly twenty years for those two reasons, and I am only now coming back out into the world of relationships, but this time with ideals of compatibility as the new golden rule. One of the very first things I do when I meet someone that I believe is going to stick around for awhile, is get into self-disclosure over my asexual orientation. It used to be embarrassing for me, but now it's just a relief. I know what I want, and that is where compatibility comes into play. I am aware of the games that teens play when they are just discovering themselves, but I am 42 years old, if a woman acted towards me the way the person in the article was acting, I would be upset. She's knows I'm asexual, wtf??? What are you even doing here with me??? There's 7 billion people in this world, and I'm sorry, but I'm not the one. That would be the point in which I would have to fess up and say this just isn't going to work out.

As for the power structure of sexuality, I only bring it up not because I read it somewhere, but because I have seen it within myself, early on, in my younger years when getting laid had very little to do with the sacred expression of intimacy towards the one you loved. It was about me, period. I remember how difficult it was to take no for an answer. I remember the manipulative counter-moves, I remember the feeling of victory immediately afterward, and I remember the thoughts of so what, life goes on, I hope she doesn't call me, the next day. I remember being in a five year relationship with the most amazing young woman, and I remember caring about her, but caring more about myself. I remember that she had the power, and I remember that even in a deeper cultural sense she didn't have the power, I had the power. I remember many of the times when she did something for me that she didn't want to do, but did it out of her "obligation". I remember the toxic personality that comes with alcoholism. And there are not too many days that go by in which I wish that I could go back and show her ultimate respect, for the beautiful, sensitive, delicate person she was. I needed to be more sensitive to where she was at. I didn't respect her. And so that is what I saw when I read that article. I saw "him" disrespecting "her" not caring one bit about where she was at in her journey, but only about going balls deep.

So it's very much subjective, but thank you for sharing your experience :)

[Guest]

I also liked your post, but I must say, I can't do it. I will not let myself get close to a sexual person ever again, and I feel like it would be enormously irresponsible of me, and extremely unfair to them.

Perfectly valid choice to make! I sure won't try to talk you out of that choice.

Only thing that I'm saying, as long as all participants are honest and realistic about it, and respect each other, it's okay to try a mixed 'ship. Yes, it's probably unlikely to work out in the long run, and most tries will fail. But it's not guaranteed to fail... and either way, people can do it, both in success and in failure, without actively harming themselves or the other partner(s).

[PeterPanForever]

And one more thing, I read through these posts, and every single statement is a valid statement to me so long as I fully understood the terminology. When talking about the power structure, rape is the extreme. There is more than likely going to be a power struggle between an asexual and a sexual and it is going to be a struggle over wills, my will versus your will. You saying no to me is not going to change the fact that I still want what I want, and I am going to get it either through manipulation, various levels and uses of force, micro-aggression, or I'm going to have a relationship on the side, and this doesn't go for the mature person as much as it does the younger immature person. The more mature person is either going to be wise enough to commingle with a compatible partner, or they will at least have the ability to compromise. If they are the more submissive, and yes, this could be the male, then he's just going to cry about it, and maybe make you feel bad about yourself, but either way, he or she, will give in. No, not all sexual people are monsters, but they all have a will, and they all want their way, and again, they all might not be at higher levels of maturity in which they can transcend the "beast" within which is paradoxically just the evolutionary urge to getter done...lust, the urge to procreate, I don't care what you want to call it, but it's obviously there, and it's obviously a part of who we are as creatures, it's something that we want even when we ironically don't want it, and the asexual is the extreme exception to the rule in that only 1% of the population deems themselves asexual. Our will to have sex or not have sex creates a very real power struggle, and that's why it's bullshit to insinuate that sex and intimacy are the same thing. So yeah, we don't want to paint all sexual people as monsters, but at the same time, lets not be naive about it either. Date rape on college campuses across the U.S. is not just a liberal conspiracy to feminize the world. Statistics show that 1 in 5 women will experience date rape during their freshman year. That's a pretty big fucking deal. Big enough to integrate it into the big picture, but without painting all sexual people as rapists. We just have to acknowledge the power structure, and the power struggle.

[PeterPanForever]

...would it be wrong of me to say the best way to have sex with an asexual is to just get with an asexual? They want sex like anyone else right? They lack *attraction* but they're still human and want sex... according to plenty of asexuals anyway...

*sigh*

I read the article and the bit that got me was how the author was saying some asexuals can enthusiastically want sex because I felt that was giving sexuals false hope... then I remembered that yeah apparently lots of asexuals *do* enthusiastically want sex so..whatever. meh.

I was stuck in my own bias when I read the article. If the scenario was that the asexual person actually wanted to have a sexual experience, then this changes everything. It wasn't what I saw when I read the article. What I saw, again, probably due to my own bias, was how can I score on this chick who doesn't really want to have sex with me. We were drinking a little, and then by some act of God I got her into my bedroom, now what is the magic word...

If it was an established relationship between an asexual and a sexual (of which my first response would be Oh dear God this is going to be a disaster) and the asexual person had decided that s/he just wanted to try it out (in this scenario s/he is like 17 or something, and not 42), then I think that it is a very interesting topic of discussion, and like others had mentioned, Step 1 is definitely don't be an asshole. I would still take my route though. I lost my virginity under the covers, and it was like huh. The article talks a bit about expectations, and that's kinda what I'm getting at when the asexual asks themselves "What's the point?" What is it that I really want? Do I want to be touched, do I want to experience a moment of intimacy, or do I just want to have sex already, stop bugging me about it with all your damn questions. I think that it would be nice for these two people in the article to take a bubble bath, get comfortable being naked with each other, learn to be sensitive to one another's touch, and when the asexual reaches a level of arousal and wants to take it a step further, then maybe it's time. I think this way because if I ever again experience a sexual relationship then this is how I want to go about it. I want us to feel comfortable being naked with each other, and I want us to be able to touch each other, but in a nonsexual way, I'm not talking about foreplay, and I want to go slow enough to where time is almost standing still, allowing arousal to transform into receptive desire. But again, my subjective experience says dear lord this isn't going to end well. And once upon a time I would say poor sexual person who now has to deal with "blue balls" but in my old age I say poor asexual person for having to put up with this bullshit just to experience a moment of intimacy.

Another big question right up there with what's the point, is we had sex, now what? What about next week? Has it just become routine? What do the expectations look like? This is where it is going to get ugly. I feel sorry for both of these people. Two asexuals having sex with one another, whole other story...they'll be able to laugh about it later. And maybe next year throw down again.