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Kurage

One of these days I'm going to cut my dick off ... [Trigger Warning/ TMI]

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Kurage

I'm a male (Further detail is on my profile if I remember to update it) who severely wants to get rid of his genitals because they frequently anger and/or disgust me.

After and inordinate amount of research I have discovered it's not only something a doctor won't even dignify with a response, unless you're transitioning (or thinking about it), but it's straight up illegal in most first world countries.

Surely if you can stick large ring and industrial spikes through all sorts of bits of your body of your own accord or getting your appendix removed without appendicitis, as long as you're willing to pay for it, there should be few objections to letting someone snip off a few bits they don't use.

Any thoughts on the matter? ^_^

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LadyWallflower

I agree with you. You should be able to get it removed if you want to.

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Titus Oates

Well, in general that kind of thinking is regarded as a kind of illness - if somebody hated their legs, or their nose, and wanted them to be cut off, do you think doctors should comply?

We can't all have what we want - sometimes we don't want what's good for us. People get preventative treatment to remove certain organs that may be prone to disease, but even that is often seen as extreme.

Rather, you should try to understand why you have those kind of urges and only then can you begin to look for a solution.

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chair jockey

You do realize that this thread might earn you a warning point or even a ban, don't you?

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The Joker

Well, in general that kind of thinking is regarded as a kind of illness - if somebody hated their legs, or their nose, and wanted them to be cut off, do you think doctors should comply?

We can't all have what we want - sometimes we don't want what's good for us. People get preventative treatment to remove certain organs that may be prone to disease, but even that is often seen as extreme.

Rather, you should try to understand why you have those kind of urges and only then can you begin to look for a solution.

I find that to be very wise and well thought out advice, Titus.

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Steph Ace

You do realize that this thread might earn you a warning point or even a ban, don't you?

For the moment, discussion about nullification surgery is permitted. This thread appears to be a discussion and a ranting (of some form).

However I may be moving this thread in the future based upon the direction the topic goes.

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Zapstileon

Well, as far as arms and legs go - if someone wants a prosthetic leg, let them. It should absolutely not be a doctors decision. The doctor can advice against it, but should not actively prevent it, is what I think. On the grounds of freedom to decide over ones own body, at any rate. Of course, a doctor can say he or she personally does not want to perform such a surgery... which is different.

Meanwhile, I have a very similar problem with my chest, but it is far more gender related, so I could probably get through the psych. evals and the medical evals to get that done.

That said, there are people who do only one kind of surgery and not another when transitioning... so you could probably get clever about it with some gender therapist.

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RK800

Ooo....ow, ow, ow.

Anyway I can see where it might cause some health issues but I think it should be your choice. The doctor (*cough cough* government regulation crap *cough*) shouldn't be the one to make such decisions for you.

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Perseus

You should have the right to do it, but don't. There is a reason for everything and if you have one it is not a mistake. Just love yourself for who you are.

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Light02

You should have the right to do it, but don't. There is a reason for everything and if you have one it is not a mistake. Just love yourself for who you are.

What if you have gender and more specifically body dysphoria, though?

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Steph Ace

This discussion has gone in the direction I was suspecting.

Moving this thread from Asexual Musings and Rantings to Gender Discussion.

Steph

Asexual Musings and Ratings Moderator.

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Kelly

This desire is actually not that rare. And it is often discussed in this forum:

http://forums.eunuch.org/forum.php

It should absolutely not be a doctors decision. The doctor can advice against it, but should not actively prevent it, is what I think. On the grounds of freedom to decide over ones own body, at any rate. Of course, a doctor can say he or she personally does not want to perform such a surgery... which is different.

There actually are laws against some surgeries. For genital surgeries of this type, many follow these guidelines:

These are the newest standards of care (version 7), released in 2011 by WPATH. Most jurisdictions follow these (including Thailand now, whereas they used to be more lenient in allowing surgeons to perform such surgeries).

These new guidelines to not adequately discuss this type of surgery. However:

That said, there are people who do only one kind of surgery and not another when transitioning... so you could probably get clever about it with some gender therapist.

During the 2011 WPATH symposium in which the new Standard of Care (SoC) were released (meaning that the standards were already written), there was much discussion on people who do not want to transition completely, and who desire some part of it, such as removal of some genitalia or breasts or to look more androgynous. I know because I was there (I am a member of WPATH). The new version does recognize that people are not all gender binary, and indeed, even the new title of the SoC uses the term Gender-Nonconforming People.

Many caregivers at the symposium mentioned that they had patients that went part way and then disappeared. We know now that they portrayed themselves as MtF or FtM so that they can get part of the treatment (those that they wanted) because being honest could hurt them. We know that now. Often, some surgeries are refused due to the "first, do no harm" philosophy. But we did discuss the idea of "do least harm". If someone wishes to remove part of their body, and you refuse, then they do so anyway and have life-threatening effects, then which would be "least harm", providing the service and performing it safely, or the possible alternative?

One presentation, which was given by four separate presenters, discussed the male-to-not-male patient. I made sure to attend that. One of my main purposes in attending the symposium was to discuss non-binary people, and this was devoted to a part of the "gender-nonconforming" part of the gender spectrum about which I aim to educate people at conferences and elsewhere.

One presenter gave data to show that the male-to-not-male or MtN is actually not as rare as one might think, and nor is it new. He gave a history of such from ancient times to the present, and then gave an estimate to the present frequency. Another present had the main point that the present SoC do not adequately address MtN people, but that it should.

Another discussed a patient of his that wanted nullification (sometimes known as "the Ken effect"), but he could not write a letter for it under the older guidelines (version 6).

The newer version does not adequately address the issue, but there might possibly be treatment under it as GID-NOS, or Gender Identity Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified, rather than BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder, which is not covered in the SoC).

If and when the "letters" are written, there was a surgeon who does this type of surgery ("cosmetic SRS"). He was James Bellringer of Charing Cross in London. He resigned last year. There was also a doctor that performed castration on demand in the USA. He was Felix Spector. He is no longer alive (he was born about a century ago). I did have a chance to talk with him many years ago. He felt that this decision should be up to the patient.

I am not sure who does these nowadays. The Eunuch Archive forum that I linked above may have newer information. There may be a replacement for Bellringer by now. Be safe and see if there is. There were and likely still are surgeons who do this in Thailand, too.

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Cheerful

I'm going to impart some wisdom, having lived many many many years. Parchment skin, age spots, wrinkles and old sparkling blue eyes - Well, you get the idea.

Your privates are there for a number of reasons, and only one of those is sexual. Your other organs depend on those parts for several reasons.

You will find as you go through life that more things piss you off than make you happy. Most things are just crap you have to put up with, and having functioning genitalia as an asexual is one of those.

( 45 years of periods followed by menopause - don't get me started. )

My advice is; see to their health and manage their quirks but don't focus on that part of you. As you age, it will call for your attention less often.

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Titus Oates

You should have the right to do it, but don't. There is a reason for everything and if you have one it is not a mistake. Just love yourself for who you are.

What if you have gender and more specifically body dysphoria, though?

But the thing is, body dysphoria is not just a normal thing. I think doctors are right to treat it as an abnormality of mind.

In that case, doctors would be irresponsible in just consenting to someone's choice, as it is not freely given.

For example, somebody with anorexia might think they are very fat and want liposuction. Obviously, it's distressing for them that they think they're fat. But a good doctor wouldn't perform such a procedure - instead he would refer this person to a mental health clinic where they would be able to work through their dysphoria issues.

Some people might want to cut off their genitals for all kinds of reasons - perhaps they were taught as a child that they were the origins of all their sinful thoughts and that rather than suffer from temptation it's better to just cut it off. Should a doctor comply in that case? Or should she go deeper and use her professional judgement about what is best for the patient?

Or people who are depressed and want to harm themselves. Should that be allowed? Should a doctor try to facilitate this, because it's what the patient wants? Or would a good doctor try to provide therapy so that the patient no longer felt this way? Many people who self harm feel that it gives them a great relief from suffering at the time, but the real cure is in the mind. They look back on the time they self harmed as a dark time in their lives, when they weren't thinking straight.

It's always political drawing a line under mental illness. Of course, in the past certain things were looked on as "illness" which are now not considered that way. Of course there's no such thing as a truly "normal" person - but I think there is still something to be said for doctors objectively assessing a patient's choices. Dysphoric thoughts are not rational, and they cause suffering to the person experiencing them. It's the thoughts that are the problem, not the body part. People should be cared for, not pandered to.

All this is leaving aside the consideration of cost - if there's a public health service like here in the UK, there is even less justification for carrying out unnecessary procedures.

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Phaetion

I don't think it's worth chopping your privates off:

A. It would be very awkward trying to go to the bathroom.

B. I don't see it as the problem (though I can imagine why others would).

Libido, however, is the REAL threat. That should be eliminated if you don't want sexual urges clawing at your sanity.

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Kelly

True. Libido can be reduced by certain medications, such as cyproterone acetate, which may help in the MtN case. But there are side effects. Something like that is generally prescribed before such a surgery. Again, be safe.

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Phaetion

I guess it depends on the side effects of the medication though. If it's too severe, then there's a problem.

Some musings of mine: If doctors see eliminating privates parts badly, then I'm guessing that they'd be indifferent about reducing libido.

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Heart

This desire is actually not that rare. And it is often discussed in this forum:

http://forums.eunuch.org/forum.php

[snip]

Every once in a while I am reminded how awesome a person you are, Kelly. Truly a gift to all non-gender-conforming individuals on this planet, whether they know about your work or not.

I fully agree with Kelly's advice here. Your body is your own, and in an ideal world you would be able to make it into what fits you best with minimal hassle. However, the traps and trappings of society can make these things difficult. If you truly want to remove your penis, then starting at websites like the forum Kelly linked is a good thing to do. They will have members with more experience with the whole process who can guide you and give advice. Researching where the best doctors are, how much it will cost you, and side effects are all good things to do. It depends a LOT on where in the world you are, and if you are capable of moving to a place where there is someone who can meet your needs in terms of doctors, surgeons and caretakers in general.

Then, I wish you luck on your journey, wherever that takes you!

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Light02

You should have the right to do it, but don't. There is a reason for everything and if you have one it is not a mistake. Just love yourself for who you are.

What if you have gender and more specifically body dysphoria, though?

But the thing is, body dysphoria is not just a normal thing. I think doctors are right to treat it as an abnormality of mind.

In that case, doctors would be irresponsible in just consenting to someone's choice, as it is not freely given.

For example, somebody with anorexia might think they are very fat and want liposuction. Obviously, it's distressing for them that they think they're fat. But a good doctor wouldn't perform such a procedure - instead he would refer this person to a mental health clinic where they would be able to work through their dysphoria issues.

Some people might want to cut off their genitals for all kinds of reasons - perhaps they were taught as a child that they were the origins of all their sinful thoughts and that rather than suffer from temptation it's better to just cut it off. Should a doctor comply in that case? Or should she go deeper and use her professional judgement about what is best for the patient?

Or people who are depressed and want to harm themselves. Should that be allowed? Should a doctor try to facilitate this, because it's what the patient wants? Or would a good doctor try to provide therapy so that the patient no longer felt this way? Many people who self harm feel that it gives them a great relief from suffering at the time, but the real cure is in the mind. They look back on the time they self harmed as a dark time in their lives, when they weren't thinking straight.

It's always political drawing a line under mental illness. Of course, in the past certain things were looked on as "illness" which are now not considered that way. Of course there's no such thing as a truly "normal" person - but I think there is still something to be said for doctors objectively assessing a patient's choices. Dysphoric thoughts are not rational, and they cause suffering to the person experiencing them. It's the thoughts that are the problem, not the body part. People should be cared for, not pandered to.

All this is leaving aside the consideration of cost - if there's a public health service like here in the UK, there is even less justification for carrying out unnecessary procedures.

So you're saying that transgender people shouldn't be allowed to transition and should learn how to get rid of their dysphoric thoughts instead?

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Chardog

Here's an opposite wish... You don't want your penis.. I'm AFAB (quite obvi Don't identify as female) and want a penis (but don't want what you can currently get via surgery or the changes that come with hormones). You have what I want, our blood types match... Transplant!!!

In a perfect world..

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Jordan...

I am in the school of thought that if first world countries say "you are free people" then you should be able to get whatever surgery you want done (assuming you can pay for it, and the doctors will do it) legally.

Personally I don't want my penis. Maybe a small pair of boobs, something so if I wanted to I could pass as a woman, but nothing major. But I can't get that done, because I don't want a vagina. I am never gonna be using the sex organs for their intended use, so why keep them?

If sex organ transplants were a thing, I am SURE doctors would probably love DMAB agenders, because from what I have heard, grating a penis is hard, so if they could get one from someone who didn't want it, then they'd be making 2 people happy. But alas, it is not :/

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Kurage

Here's an opposite wish... You don't want your penis.. I'm AFAB (quite obvi Don't identify as female) and want a penis (but don't want what you can currently get via surgery or the changes that come with hormones). You have what I want, our blood types match... Transplant!!!

In a perfect world..

Genuinely that was the first thing I looked up when I first considered the idea. My google search history was a mess of variations of the phrase "Can I donate my genitals?"

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Kurage

I am in the school of thought that if first world countries say "you are free people" then you should be able to get whatever surgery you want done (assuming you can pay for it, and the doctors will do it) legally.

Personally I don't want my penis. Maybe a small pair of boobs, something so if I wanted to I could pass as a woman, but nothing major. But I can't get that done, because I don't want a vagina. I am never gonna be using the sex organs for their intended use, so why keep them?

If sex organ transplants were a thing, I am SURE doctors would probably love DMAB agenders, because from what I have heard, grating a penis is hard, so if they could get one from someone who didn't want it, then they'd be making 2 people happy. But alas, it is not :/

There have been male to male penis transplants before but as is a risk with most donor surgeries often they've resulted in the recieving party's body rejecting the transplanted bits and bobs.

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dash

You do realize that this thread might earn you a warning point or even a ban, don't you?

What the heck?

Someone's not going to be warned or banned for talking about their own experience of gender dysphoria. AVEN would have to be hella transphobic a place to dictate what gender dysphoria experiences are considered "acceptable" to talk about on this site. Describing one's own experience of gender dysphoria doesn't violate AVEN's TOS.

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dash

You should have the right to do it, but don't. There is a reason for everything and if you have one it is not a mistake. Just love yourself for who you are.

I get the feeling you don't understand the experience of gender dysphoria here. "Love yourself for who you are" doesn't magically solve gender dysphoria. Surgery does.

Also, the WPATH standards of care now includes nonbinary people. This should also include AMAB people who do not wish to have a penis/testicles.

"Another major change, Bockting explained, is that the standards “allow for a broader spectrum of identities – they are no longer so binary.”

“There is no one way of being transgender and it doesn’t have to mirror the idea of a change of their sex,” Bockting explained.

“These standards allow for a gender queer person to have breasts removed without ever taking hormones,” he said."

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Calligraphette_Coe
If and when the "letters" are written, there was a surgeon who does this type of surgery ("cosmetic SRS"). He was James Bellringer of Charing Cross in London. He resigned last year. There was also a doctor that performed castration on demand in the USA. He was Felix Spector. He is no longer alive (he was born about a century ago). I did have a chance to talk with him many years ago. He felt that this decision should be up to the patient.

I had serious thoughts of going to see Dr. Spector myself. Sadly, people from our own community filed complaints against him and tried to have him defrocked. :(

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Kurage

I'm fine with penises in general usually but mine just causes me oodles of discomfort both physical and mental to the point of affecting my daily life, from sudden violent shudders to fearful anxiety that someone may see it/think about it/try to touch it which is a big no go when it comes to my wonky psyche. This may was exacerbated by a sleepover that went horribly wrong with a friend who figured the guise of a trust excercise (Yes I know I'm gullible) would be a good time to stop finally stop pestering me about my lack of a sex life and incorporate me into their own whether I agreed or not.

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Guest

Why don't you go into science an do lots of biology , and learn about amputation and saftey , and get all the right thread , then maby you can DIY , sorry you feel this way . Hugs and cake :)

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Titus Oates

So you're saying that transgender people shouldn't be allowed to transition and should learn how to get rid of their dysphoric thoughts instead?

I'm not a doctor, and I'll admit don't know much about transgenderism, so I won't say people shouldn't be allowed to transition. But I think a doctor should think very carefully about advising any kind of non-essential surgery for a patient.

However, I would also stress that I spoke about irrationality of dysphoria. Wanting to have sex reassignment surgery is not irrational. The reason is so the patient can be perceived as the opposite sex. The The OP's case is different, as he has no pressing *reason* to receive the surgery he desires. It seems to be irrational.

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