"nice guys" -- found this online, what do you think?

[Rising Sun]

They aren't so common IRL, but on Internet, incel forums are full of "nice guys" and they're quite vocal on a lot of forums, ready to convert the world to their strange "animal-like" view of women. There are also a lot of incel women, but they just can't take part in incel forums, because "nice guys" hate them and don't want any female member there.

[Goober]

"nice guys" are guys who think they deserve the world and women to bow at their feet for doing a good thing/some good things.

nice guys are decent human beings who do good things without expecting a reward, especially not from another gender.

[blossombreeze]

I'm realizing my boyfriend is the self proclaimed "nice guy" and its starting to bother me.

He thinks feminism is stupid yet he's one of those "nice guys" that aren't "negatively affected by video games".

He doesn't see any of the problems i see in the world and when I point them out to him he thinks i'm "making it a bigger deal than it is" or i'm "being over sensitive" and should just accept the world for the intersectionally unequal & fundamentally flawed place that it is.

Rather than supporting me in dedicating my life & work (as a writer) to trying to bring attention to marginalized groups of people & their problems, i should just "have fun" and "not take the things he says too seriously".

He still gropes me randomly and talks about my body a piece of property he owns, no matter how many times i've told him to stop, no matter how i've phrased that it literally triggers me and sends me back to that place in my mind where i'm a little kid being molested.

This "nice guy" attitude is sooo engrained in his brain that he literally can't stop himself from these actions, because he believes my body is his deserved prize for his great service to this nation as being "one of the nice guys".

For driving to a taqueria and buying me a burrito, he expects a blow job and to grab up on me, cause thats "nice" right? but even bringing it up makes me out to be the ungrateful bitch.

[marki]

Dump that dick head !!!

[Guest]

They aren't so common IRL, but on Internet, incel forums are full of "nice guys" and they're quite vocal on a lot of forums, ready to convert the world to their strange "animal-like" view of women. There are also a lot of incel women, but they just can't take part in incel forums, because "nice guys" hate them and don't want any female member there.

I don't know, I mostly heard the ones I ran across at college. Not so much online.

[Hobbes!]

He still gropes me randomly and talks about my body a piece of property he owns, no matter how many times i've told him to stop, no matter how i've phrased that it literally triggers me and sends me back to that place in my mind where i'm a little kid being molested.

I've never been one to try and tell people what to do with their own relationships but that ... that worries me. Your body is your own and your boyfriend should respect that. It shouldn't even matter whether it triggers you or not, it's deeply dishonourable for him to treat you like that

[Sally]

This "nice guy" attitude is sooo engrained in his brain that he literally can't stop himself from these actions, because he believes my body is his deserved prize for his great service to this nation as being "one of the nice guys".

For driving to a taqueria and buying me a burrito, he expects a blow job and to grab up on me, cause thats "nice" right? but even bringing it up makes me out to be the ungrateful bitch.

And why is he still your boyfriend?

[Guest]

Heartless people deserve heartless people.

[JAKQ7111]

Heartless people deserve heartless people.

Though, in a strange twist of irony, it is often the heartless people who do not realize they are heartless, and the ones who think they are heartless have the biggest hearts of all.

[Guest]

Heartless people deserve heartless people.

Though, in a strange twist of irony, it is often the heartless people who do not realize they are heartless, and the ones who think they are heartless have the biggest hearts of all.

The same can be said for wisdom.

"The Foole doth thinke he is wise, but the wiseman knowes himselfe to be a Foole" - William Shakespeare

[Guest]

"The Foole doth thinke he is wise, but the wiseman knowes himselfe to be a Foole" - William Shakespeare

"Shakespeare overusese the lettere E manye timese." - Mysticuse Insanuse

(couldn't resist. sue me. :p)

[Sally]

Also, men are obligated to do things, like pay for dates. Is it really unreasonable that women should be obligated to do certain things too?

Men are not obligated to pay for dates. That may have been true 50 years ago, but not today. And it is unreasonable that either men or women should be obligated to do anything for their partners, except be kind to each other.

If you do not like what a woman looks like or does, then you do not need to date her.

[SorryNotSorry]

Heartless people deserve heartless people.

Though, in a strange twist of irony, it is often the heartless people who do not realize they are heartless, and the ones who think they are heartless have the biggest hearts of all.

I'm inclined to agree... I tout myself as being rude rather than nice, but one reason why I'm firm with others IRL when they're acting stupid is so they'll hopefully learn that getting themselves out of their own messes is a lesson nobody can put a price on.

[scarletlatitude]

He still gropes me randomly and talks about my body a piece of property he owns, no matter how many times i've told him to stop, no matter how i've phrased that it literally triggers me and sends me back to that place in my mind where i'm a little kid being molested.

I've never been one to try and tell people what to do with their own relationships but that ... that worries me. Your body is your own and your boyfriend should respect that. It shouldn't even matter whether it triggers you or not, it's deeply dishonourable for him to treat you like that

See this is why we say men from England are better... ;) (JOKING. CALM DOWN AMERICA.)

[Guest]

Also, I see some sexism and double standards in certain parts of that article. I can't help but notice that the first item on that flowchart is "Are women obligated to shave their legs?" and the second item is "Are women obligated to do anything?" Does having standards - not wanting to date a woman who doesn't take care of her appearance - automatically make someone a Nice Guy™? Also, men are obligated to do things, like pay for dates. Is it really unreasonable that women should be obligated to do certain things too? I am a Nice Guy™ apparently, despite the fact that I have no real interest in sex or dating and generally prefer the company of computers to that of women and I answered "No" to every other question on that flow chart.

Also I'd like to point out that I'm male and I shave my legs, or at least I did until I found I was getting horrible razor burn (apparently I have extremely sensitive skin). I'm now saving up for No! No! and will invest in it as soon as I can afford it. I think everyone should shave their legs and armpits, not just women. Body hair is just ugly and gross to look at, regardless of gender. I take care of my appearance, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect a potential romantic partner to do the same. Some guys expect their potential girlfriends to be 10s while they themselves are overweight, unkempt, don't shower, don't shave, etc. These guys are douchebags. But I'm not one of them.

There is a difference in a PREFERENCE and thinking someone is OBLIGATED to do something. You can PREFER that women shave their legs, that is your right to have an aesthetic preference. However, if you think I am obligated to follow your preference... uhm, well. I can tell people where to shove that idea. ;)

And no, men are not obligated to pay for dates. It's a gender role and some people prefer it, but it is also a societal thing and in some countries it's actually pretty common for each person to pay their own. And you are under no obligation whatsoever to follow a gender role and pay for every date.

[deleted_account]

I don't feel like fedoras are the end of the world; I had a guy friend once who wore a fedora with a suit while being my platonic date to an event. It was okay.

That said, I used to be a "nice guy" in female form. "WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME" was all I ever thought about. I got a wake-up call and learned to recognize these traits in myself and modify them, and from then I learned to detect their manifestation in other people. I don't hate nice guys, they can be useful if you need a favor done - you just have to be extremely clear about your boundaries, and avoid drinking around them.

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

[Hobbes!]

I own three. Suck it, you naysayers

[Nevyn]

[Hobbes!]

Colour me corrected. I own three trilbys

[Guest]

Colour me corrected. I own three trilbys

Is that make it tritrilbys? :P

[Zash]

Does it count if my operating system is Fedora Core?

[Hobbes!]

This question can be easily flipped around: Are men obligated to find fat, hairy women beautiful? Because that's the hidden agenda that's usually lurking behind that question, especially when asked by a body-positivity SJW or feminist SJW (which is most often the case). SJWs think that men are obligated to not only tolerate women who don't take care of themselves (which is a reasonable request by itself), but also find them aesthetically attractive.

That's cunning reasoning. The attitude you're describing I wouldn't have ascribed so much to Social Justice Warriors as frothy internet columnists, though

[thylacine]

Beware of men who say, "I'm a nice guy." This sentence is usually followed by, "I don't know why women don't like me." Guys who protest that they are nice are frequently stalkers or just trying to get you into bed. They will be nice and then act like a jerk if you don't fit into the small little box they try to fit you into. Watch out for any person who claims to be "nice."

[Zash]

This question can be easily flipped around: Are men obligated to find fat, hairy women beautiful? Because that's the hidden agenda that's usually lurking behind that question, especially when asked by a body-positivity SJW or feminist SJW (which is most often the case). SJWs think that men are obligated to not only tolerate women who don't take care of themselves (which is a reasonable request by itself), but also find them aesthetically attractive.

That's cunning reasoning. The attitude you're describing I wouldn't have ascribed so much to Social Justice Warriors as frothy internet columnists, though

Just putting this out there, but, fat used to be very attractive to men. It meant the girl was wealthy and well off enough to not die of consumption soon. It has only been recently that thin women became the social concept of beautiful.

[Guest]

Also, I see some sexism and double standards in certain parts of that article. I can't help but notice that the first item on that flowchart is "Are women obligated to shave their legs?" and the second item is "Are women obligated to do anything?" Does having standards - not wanting to date a woman who doesn't take care of her appearance - automatically make someone a Nice Guy™? Also, men are obligated to do things, like pay for dates. Is it really unreasonable that women should be obligated to do certain things too? I am a Nice Guy™ apparently, despite the fact that I have no real interest in sex or dating and generally prefer the company of computers to that of women and I answered "No" to every other question on that flow chart.

Also I'd like to point out that I'm male and I shave my legs, or at least I did until I found I was getting horrible razor burn (apparently I have extremely sensitive skin). I'm now saving up for No! No! and will invest in it as soon as I can afford it. I think everyone should shave their legs and armpits, not just women. Body hair is just ugly and gross to look at, regardless of gender. I take care of my appearance, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect a potential romantic partner to do the same. Some guys expect their potential girlfriends to be 10s while they themselves are overweight, unkempt, don't shower, don't shave, etc. These guys are douchebags. But I'm not one of them.

There is a difference in a PREFERENCE and thinking someone is OBLIGATED to do something. You can PREFER that women shave their legs, that is your right to have an aesthetic preference. However, if you think I am obligated to follow your preference... uhm, well. I can tell people where to shove that idea. ;)

And no, men are not obligated to pay for dates. It's a gender role and some people prefer it, but it is also a societal thing and in some countries it's actually pretty common for each person to pay their own. And you are under no obligation whatsoever to follow a gender role and pay for every date.

It depends on what you mean by "obligated". Do I think there should be government sanctions against women who don't shave their legs? Hell, no! Do I care whether random strangers I will never meet shave their legs or not? Hell, no! Do I think men are perfectly reasonable for rejecting a woman on the grounds that she doesn't shave, and would I reject a woman on these grounds? Hell, yes! Am I opposed to the SJW "body positivity" movement on Tumblr where men and women alike are deliberately neglecting to shave, do their hair, etc. and are deliberately stuffing their faces so they become morbidly obese, all while saying "I'm beautiful. Fuck you if you don't agree!"? Hell, yes!

This question can be easily flipped around: Are men obligated to find fat, hairy women beautiful? Because that's the hidden agenda that's usually lurking behind that question, especially when asked by a body-positivity SJW or feminist SJW (which is most often the case). SJWs think that men are obligated to not only tolerate women who don't take care of themselves (which is a reasonable request by itself), but also find them aesthetically attractive.

See, you're talking about PREFERENCE again. You can reject someone for any reason. You can reject someone because they are bald, too skinny, too fat, too tall, too short, because they have blonde hair, etc. That's all PREFERENCE. However, if you feel that a woman HAS to shave because YOU want her to that is feeling a woman is obligated to it. For example, Julia Roberts was photographed with hair armpits. The media and everyone went nuts insulting her and shaming her for not shaving. It's OK to say "I do not find that attractive" or "I would not date a woman who did not shave" that's your right and your preference. However, I for example, can do whatever I want with my legs... we're never going to date so your aesthetic preference has no control over me and I am not obligated in any way, shape, or form to conform to your wishes. See the difference?

ob·li·gate

verb

past tense: obligated; past participle: obligated

ˈäbləˌɡāt/

1. 1.

   bind or compel (someone), especially legally or morally.

As for SJW - I don't read tumblr or reddit. :P I have heard of fanatical extremists on those sites though about every issue. You won't find too many of those here though.

[Vector]

It depends on what you mean by "obligated". Do I think there should be government sanctions against women who don't shave their legs? Hell, no! Do I care whether random strangers I will never meet shave their legs or not? Hell, no! Do I think men are perfectly reasonable for rejecting a woman on the grounds that she doesn't shave, and would I reject a woman on these grounds? Hell, yes! Am I opposed to the SJW "body positivity" movement on Tumblr where men and women alike are deliberately neglecting to shave, do their hair, etc. and are deliberately stuffing their faces so they become morbidly obese, all while saying "I'm beautiful. Fuck you if you don't agree!"? Hell, yes!

This question can be easily flipped around: Are men obligated to find fat, hairy women beautiful? Because that's the hidden agenda that's usually lurking behind that question, especially when asked by a body-positivity SJW or feminist SJW (which is most often the case). SJWs think that men are obligated to not only tolerate women who don't take care of themselves (which is a reasonable request by itself), but also find them aesthetically attractive.

A couple of points to this:

- Like Zash said, standards of beauty change, have changed and will continue to do so. Shaving legs and pits for women wasn't even a thing until the early 20th century. The ideal body shape and size has changed something ridiculous over time (look at Renaissance paintings of naked ladies, for example. I wouldn't call many of those women skinny.) Even within the framework of our current western social standards of beauty, what people find or do not find aesthetically pleasing is subjective and there is variation. (I know plenty of guys who don't care about shaved pits, for example).

- Men (or women, or non-binary folk) aren't obligated to like anything. Nor are you obligated to date people you deem unattractive. I would submit, though, that people in general should feel obligated to not shame or bully others for making choices that don't fit perceived societal beauty standards (or their own personal ones).

- Body positivity generally isn't about making men feel like they should feel attracted to anything (and to assume so is a little bit sexist, imo). Body positivity is about learning that your body is primarily yours and you're the only person who has to like it. Body positivity is about making people feel good about themselves. The idea is to fight the anxiety and other negative feelings that come from trying to conform to a standard that you can't (or won't; because it's fine if people put other things they enjoy or care about above looking nice for other people; it really is) fit into. The idea is to reduce the amount of shaming and humiliation directed at people who don't conform to these standards because no one deserves to be made to feel worthless because of what they look like, and to discourage people from engaging in unhealthy or risky behaviour in order to meet these standards (which, say, fat people are often pressured to do).

[binary suns]

[FinallyReadyToBeHere]

Also, I see some sexism and double standards in certain parts of that article. I can't help but notice that the first item on that flowchart is "Are women obligated to shave their legs?" and the second item is "Are women obligated to do anything?" Does having standards - not wanting to date a woman who doesn't take care of her appearance - automatically make someone a Nice Guy™? Also, men are obligated to do things, like pay for dates. Is it really unreasonable that women should be obligated to do certain things too? I am a Nice Guy™ apparently, despite the fact that I have no real interest in sex or dating and generally prefer the company of computers to that of women and I answered "No" to every other question on that flow chart.

Also I'd like to point out that I'm male and I shave my legs, or at least I did until I found I was getting horrible razor burn (apparently I have extremely sensitive skin). I'm now saving up for No! No! and will invest in it as soon as I can afford it. I think everyone should shave their legs and armpits, not just women. Body hair is just ugly and gross to look at, regardless of gender. I take care of my appearance, so I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect a potential romantic partner to do the same. Some guys expect their potential girlfriends to be 10s while they themselves are overweight, unkempt, don't shower, don't shave, etc. These guys are douchebags. But I'm not one of them.

There is a difference in a PREFERENCE and thinking someone is OBLIGATED to do something. You can PREFER that women shave their legs, that is your right to have an aesthetic preference. However, if you think I am obligated to follow your preference... uhm, well. I can tell people where to shove that idea. ;)

And no, men are not obligated to pay for dates. It's a gender role and some people prefer it, but it is also a societal thing and in some countries it's actually pretty common for each person to pay their own. And you are under no obligation whatsoever to follow a gender role and pay for every date.

It depends on what you mean by "obligated". Do I think there should be government sanctions against women who don't shave their legs? Hell, no! Do I care whether random strangers I will never meet shave their legs or not? Hell, no! Do I think men are perfectly reasonable for rejecting a woman on the grounds that she doesn't shave, and would I reject a woman on these grounds? Hell, yes! Am I opposed to the SJW "body positivity" movement on Tumblr where men and women alike are deliberately neglecting to shave, do their hair, etc. and are deliberately stuffing their faces so they become morbidly obese, all while saying "I'm beautiful. Fuck you if you don't agree!"? Hell, yes!

This question can be easily flipped around: Are men obligated to find fat, hairy women beautiful? Because that's the hidden agenda that's usually lurking behind that question, especially when asked by a body-positivity SJW or feminist SJW (which is most often the case). SJWs think that men are obligated to not only tolerate women who don't take care of themselves (which is a reasonable request by itself), but also find them aesthetically attractive.

The thing is men are not obligated to do anything. Women are not obligated to do anything. They are both obligated, however, to treat each other like decent human beings and not put certain expectations on one another and expect every single person to follow those expectations. You may have preferences and you do have choices in those preferences

The Body Positivity movement is a movement that is supposed to promote people accepting who they are. Believe it or not those "fat, hairy" women you have a preference for not dating? Newsflash, there are some women who cannot help two of those things. There are women who have tried hard to change those things. There are women who have killed themselves because they are not thin and hairless. The same goes for men. Body Positivity not only promotes accepting your body and loving yourself but it also promotes taking care of yourself. It encourages you to take care of yourself in non-toxic ways and that what you choose to do with your body is what you choose to do with your body. If you want to put on weight-- you can do that and do it safely. If you want to lose weight-- you can do that and do it safely. If you know you cannot lose weight no matter how hard you try, you can still take care of your body without taking drastic measures to fit society's perceptions of what you SHOULD look like. Everyone has the right, though, to look in the mirror and be able to love themselves. They also have the right to say "I'm beautiful. F*ck off." especially to people who think that every human being should live up to their particular standards of beauty.

When your preferences supersede my right to feel good about myself, that is where the problems start.

Beauty is subjective and the least I can do is see myself as beautiful. If you don't find me beautiful, what the hell ever. I do not care what you think especially since you don't seem to understand that you have the right to act on your preferences--everyone does. You are also not getting the fact that there are entire videos and lists out there where dictating to others how and what they should be doing to be found attractive to one gender or another as a whole and those lists are entirely subjective. You are not understanding that the "obligation" anyone has here--man, woman, or non-binary-- is to treat someone else as if they are worthy of respect no matter how they look. Respect-- not "oh god, your so hot, please date me!"

"Nice guys" go beyond the aesthetic-- they feel that women are obligated to be with them just because they seemingly treat them like human beings. Even if the woman is not a 10 by conventional, heteronormative beauty standards, there are guys who feel that women are obliged to reward them for their acts of kindness and decency by dating them. This is where women can act on their preferences but are called out on it often. I've been scared to the point where I won't date anymore because I am afraid of what people will say about me acting on my preferences rather than on the fact that a guy was "good" to me. This is when you find out who your "Friends" are because they will not encourage you to choose what makes you happy--they will make you feel as if you slighted them. "How dare you date someone you actually want to be with over me! You b****, after all I've done for you!"

Those are the "nice guys".

[Rising Sun]

Allow me to point you to the Tumblr blog thisisthinprivilage: http://thisisthinprivilage.tumblr.com/

Just look through those posts and tell me what you think. This blog is one of the hubs of the body positivity movement, and it consists of fat people who are so bitter that they not only lash out at thin people, but also actively discourage anyone from doing anything about their weight, even when it becomes a health problem, and completely deny all scientific evidence that obesity has any negative health consequences whatsoever. A large segment of the body positivity movement is defined by hatred of thin people and hatred of conventionally beautiful people.

I didn't read the blog (I imagine what could be written there very well). But theissue you're talking about is the same as what is discussed in the topic about feminists, and especially extremists who ruin feminism.

Your argument supposes that body positivity is only made of extremists, and even though I know this movement only through an overweight women's forum (where I didn't see any extremist), I seriously doubt that body positivity is a genuinely extremist ideology to its core.