Did Esther Perel drop the ball? Where Do We Begin S6E29

[bjorngoodman]

This conversation is eerily familiar to me, except that I was blamed for my wife's asexuality much more directly, several times. Nobody ever asked her the one key question: have you ever experienced sexual desire for another person?

 

Maybe the woman in this story is not asexual, but the failure to ask about it is a problem for sex therapists. https://open.spotify.com/episode/3d6cSSwtMbEjQTf8j080iO?si=NZrjac2ORo-YHmYb_OFVSQ

[Sarah-Sylvia]

Thoughts as I'm listening:

 

1) The husband talks about sex being important rather than it being important 'to him'. I don't like that.

2) Esther assumes the wife is sexual because she's 'orgasmic', that obviously shows she doesn't even know much about asexuality.

3) She's possibly a little sex-averse, it feels like. Kind of a big thing that doesn't get addressed properly, but ok.

4) Esther's right that she doesnt have her own space for finding what she wants herself. Would be good to help that regardless of a/sexuality.

5)Developing autonomy and self-awareness is good to work on, at least, that Esther touched on.

6) I'm glad Esther picked up on the husband thinking of things 'working' in terms of non-sexual touch is to get it to work 'for' reaching sex. Esther's right that it's then not truly non-sexual.

7) I'm glad she's bringing up the need/urgency on the husband's side. For him to find ways to not depend on demanding sex from her.

8} I find at the end the wife kind of makes it clear enough that she'd enjoy non-sexual touch if it stayed in itself (and not be sexual). I very much relate to that. Esther did good to have that be brought up but then also after assumes it'll sometimes become invitation for sex, but really that might not be true if she were to 'really' be able to do what she wants for connection (if she's ace-spec).

 

 

So, the big thing here is that the sex therapist doesn't know or cater to asexuality. The wife could be ace-spec but that point isn't anywhere in this. Esther did a pretty good job of bringing up important parts, so that's good, but obviously there's something missing.

I wouldn't say Esther dropped the ball, because she didn't have the right ball to begin with, she probably doesn't know about asexuality. (or not enough)

 

 

[Ceebs]

That was a somewhat infuriating conversation to listen to. Nothing surprising at all, and Perel is good at her job for the most part, in getting people to talk. I felt bad for both of the partners though. And yes, she should've explored the question of whether the wife really ever felt desire for anyone. Although I suspect the answer would've been something like a hesitant 'Well yes, but I still don't think about actually wanting to have sex much'. Who knows, maybe I'd be surprised. It also felt a bit like she was trying to convince the husband to be someone he's just not and try to feel the same degree of emotional connection through other activities (which can be helpful to a degree, but there is no substitute for sex). But of course that's what he has to do unless they break up, because save for things that... er, should definitely not happen in a loving relationship (or ever, at all)... sex obviously depends on the willingness and consent of the partner with the lower level of interest. And no decent therapist is going to try to tell the LL partner to suck it up and have more sex. He sounds like someone who probably doesn't even want to have sex with someone who doesn't truly feel desire for him anyway, and certainly not with someone who isn't also experiencing pleasure.
 

Honestly my conclusion is they're incompatible, but of course that doesn't spell out the end of their marriage, especially after so long together. They'll probably stay together and neither of them  will get their needs met.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

7 minutes ago, Ceebs said:

That was a somewhat infuriating conversation to listen to. Nothing surprising at all, and Perel is good at her job for the most part, in getting people to talk. I felt bad for both of the partners though. And yes, she should've explored the question of whether the wife really ever felt desire for anyone. Although I suspect the answer would've been something like a hesitant 'Well yes, but I still don't think about actually wanting to have sex much'. Who knows, maybe I'd be surprised. It also felt a bit like she was trying to convince the husband to be someone he's just not and try to feel the same degree of emotional connection through other activities. But of course that's what he has to do unless they break up, because save for things that... er, should definitely not happen in a loving relationship (or ever, at all)... sex obviously depends on the willingness and consent of the partner with the lower level of interest. And no decent therapist is going to try to tell the LL partner to suck it up and have more sex.
 

Honestly my conclusion is they're incompatible, but of course that doesn't spell out the end of their marriage, especially after so long together. They'll probably stay together and neither of them  will get their needs met.

She could also be gray-ace or just less sexual, which would lead to similar or even the same degree of mismatch, considering how much he wants sex. But even if she were just 'less sexual', the husband would need to be able to let up and let her have her own space for her to find what she actually wants, and not just answering demands. I think it's a huge issue too if he's not even able to appreciate non-sexual touch in itself if that's what she appreciates more for for closeness. Whether or not she's asexual. Though they might easily be incompatible still even if she isn't ace.

 

Still it feels super weird to me that he says he wants her to feel good, and yet he can't see that what would feel good to her would be the non-sexual touch, that isn't meant to lead up to sex.

[Ceebs]

11 minutes ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

Still it feels super weird to me that he says he wants her to feel good, and yet he can't see that what would feel good to her would be the non-sexual touch, that isn't meant to lead up to sex.

That's where I see the problem, regardless of whether she's ace or not, yeah. 
 

He does need to understand that fully. I suspect he feels like he's being a bit demonised for something that is not actually wrong or bad. And I suppose just basing things on the way he speaks, I feel like he's probably someone who does actually value non-sexual physical touch as well... but under the circumstances is very fixated on sex in particular because that's the big looming thing here and that's what's missing for him (in the way he desires it, anyway). Sex has a tendency to do that when it's the one type of intimacy you're craving even though you like other types too. 

 

If it turns out that non-sexual touch is the only touch she truly wants, yeah they have a problem.

 

Also I'm not all that sold on the idea that she even wanted that too much. Her answer wasn't exactly enthusiastic, it sounded more like she was trying to be nice and at least acknowledge that it wasn't as unappealing as sex. Maybe that was just the influence of being put on the spot and being more reserved in a therapy session though, and one that's being recorded at that.

[Sarah-Sylvia]

7 minutes ago, Ceebs said:

That's where I see the problem, regardless of whether she's ace or not, yeah. 
 

He does need to understand that fully. I suspect he feels like he's being a bit demonised for something that is not actually wrong or bad. And I suppose just basing things on the way he speaks, I feel like he's probably someone who does actually value non-sexual physical touch as well... but under the circumstances is very fixated on sex in particular because that's the big looming thing here and that's what's missing for him (in the way he desires it, anyway).

 

If it turns out that non-sexual touch is the only touch she truly wants, yeah they have a problem.

 

Also I'm not all that sold on the idea that she even wanted that too much. Her answer wasn't exactly enthusiastic, it sounded more like she was trying to be nice and at least acknowledge that it wasn't as unappealing as sex. Maybe that was just the influence of being more reserved in a therapy session though, and one that's being recorded at that.

Sure you might be right I definitely felt that at first, that she didn't care much for touch either, but as it went on it felt like she could reveal that she does like it when there's no expectation for sex, but I can't rule out that she was just playing up the idea for the show or to make herself to be more normal romantically. I can't tell which it is but my leaning ended up being that she does like that level of touch/intimacy. Because also I do think there's something to her experiences (including childhood) affecting how she feels about touch, but even if I say that i don't give that much to the past unless there's trauma to deal with, and I'm not sure she does. (maybe more not having been given the right opportunity to connect well that way)

 

But yeah it wasn't well addressed.. but I guess it's true I wouldn't see a radio therapist suggest a couple is just incompatible and end it there xD.

[Ceebs]

1 minute ago, Sarah-Sylvia said:

But yeah it wasn't well addressed.. but I guess it's true I wouldn't see a radio therapist suggest a couple is just incompatible and end it there xD.

Yeah probably not. 😂

 

I also assume these people on her show attend multiple sessions, not just the one that's recorded.

[Ceebs]

Honestly listening to it made me quite grateful I'm not in any situation that resembles anything like that anymore. Makes me glad that the sex issue my relationship is dealing with is one average-to-high libido person (me) wanting slightly more spontaneous and frequent sex than the other average-to-high libido person (my partner). Not much to complain about in comparison...