Can AVEN endorse transgender equality?

[AVENguy]

As some of you may know, there's some big stuff going on here in the states around trans rights. The Employment Non-Descrimination Act, or ENDA, is a bill that would prohibit workplace discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity. Recently members of congress changes the proposed law to take gender identity out, essentially saying that it's ok to descriminate against trans people.

Gay and trans rights groups across the US are screaming out in protest. Most major gay rights groups have pulled their support for the bill, saying that excluding trans people is unacceptable. There's a bunch of information and petitions here:

http://www.unitedenda.org/

There's also a big list of organizations supporting the United EDNA. I'd like to see AVEN on that list. This is an extremely important issue , and I think it's high time that queer activists started seeing the our name show up in stuff like this.

[Kelly]

As a member (and admin) of AVEN, and a member of WPATH (formerly HBIGDA), and as a human being, I support equal rights for TS people.

[roddy9uk]

I voted "no" because, as I see it, it is irrelevant to what Aven is, could be, would be, or should be.

It is not a judgement on the rights or wrongs of the circumstances as described. I simply do not agree with one "pressure group" endorsing the aims of another group as it implies support that may not in fact be there.

roddy

[JokeyFairbobbin]

I support AVEN supporting ENDA, but I also think it's very important that we're sure AVEN does support ENDA before supporting it... if that makes sense.

What I mean is, I think AVEN is in a position to have a position on ENDA, but it's we should be sure that it's a position that a vast majority of AVENites share.

[endplusone]

I support this, not only as an asexual who has an understanding of struggles within other orientations and lifestyles, but as a human who advocates the rights of people.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but can't people who identify as asexual in orientation also be transgendered as well? Sexuality is a combination of many factors... your biological sex, your actual sexual behaviour, the gender you identify with, and so on. I think in this situation we can't rule out the fact that an individual may identify as a gender that does not coincide with their biological sex, but in addition to this experience a different sexual attraction/behaviour... no sexual desire at all.

[mackat5]

Yes, we should. They are just as important to life as anybody else.

[Mad Larkin]

i am in agreemant with supporting ENDA

[spinneret]

Hell yes!

Good idea, DJ.

[ily]

I'd support AVEN's support.

I think it's kind of terrifying that some politicians are against NON-discrimination. I mean, what could possibly be wrong with NOT discriminating against people? It's like banning cake-- gosh folks, not so hard.

But, I think we'll need to get some more (overwhelmingly positive) responses to this poll.

[Coleslaw]

I think we should definitely support ENDA.

I voted "no" because, as I see it, it is irrelevant to what Aven is, could be, would be, or should be.

It is not a judgement on the rights or wrongs of the circumstances as described. I simply do not agree with one "pressure group" endorsing the aims of another group as it implies support that may not in fact be there.

roddy

Roddy, you make a good point, but at the same time, we wouldn't be just giving support for the sake of giving support. Considering the amount of gender-deviants on AVEN, I think it makes complete sense to do this, regardless of what AVEN was originally founded for. It's not just ENDA we'd be supporting, but the rights of our own members.

For me, I guess it's more about the broader queer community than just individual groups...

[AndAPickle?]

Why on earth would it be wrong to support something to try and help protect the rights of others?

[echidna]

I think this is an interesting question - not whether the ENDA is right or wrong, but whether it is appropriate for AVEN to be involved in something that isn't directly to do with asexuality. If AVEN is involved this time, where would the line be drawn on other occasions? How many people have to participate in the poll to make it valid? Is there a role for the Project Team here? Or is this such a 'one-off' important event that the situation wouldn't arise again?

Irrespective of what happens re ENDA, perhaps it would be worthwhile some people thinking through a policy on what AVEN should and shouldn't support in general, and how such decisions are to be made for specific cases?

Not living in the US, I don't know anything about this bill but if it really lists the reasons for which people should not suffer discrimination, I think something's wrong. Shouldn't everything except your ability to do the job be irrelevant?

[PollyB]

I voted that we should support this for similar reasons to Cole, about the number of AVEN members that are in the transgender community, and about being placed in the wider queer community; however some of Echidna's points about making a policy for these kinds of situations are interesting as well.

Specifically there's something buzzing around the edges of this for me about national versus international - whether it's actually more effective if campaigns about US law are conducted by US-based organisations, and how we as a community who don't all vote in the US fit into that. I don't want to use that as a cop-out, just have us think about our identity a bit.

[Hallucigenia]

What a tricky question!

Of course as an individual I think it's a very good idea, and perhaps even a moral necessity, to not discriminate against transgendered people. But it isn't AVEN's job to promote everything that we think is a very good idea, or even everything that we think is a moral necessity. AVEN's job is to create visibility and education around the issue of asexuality.

"We have so many transgendered people here" isn't a good enough argument. I'm sorry, I know that sounds harsh, but we have all kinds of people here. For instance, we have a lot of people with Asperger's Syndrome here. But it would make no sense for us to endorse something politically to do with Asperger's Syndrome because that's not what we, as a site, are about. And we have a lot of people who live on the planet Earth, but it would make no sense for us to start campaigning about global warming, because that's not what we are here for.

Generalized "queer" groups support transgender rights because they are umbrella groups that have intentionally taken on the cause of everyone who doesn't fit into sex or gender norms. That is fine. We are not a generalized "queer" group: we are an Asexual Visibility and Education Network.

The only way that this would make sense is if we adopted an official viewpoint that transgender issues are, inherently, asexual issues - either because asexuality and non-gender conformity are inherently linked, or because we are adopting a wide-ranging political stance on sexuality and gender that goes far beyond the mere acceptance of asexuality. And I dunno, guys - it's quite possible that there's a case to be made for that viewpoint. But if there is, we need to really consider if we want it as an official thing, rather than blindly jumping in to an endorsement that implies such because it happens to tug at our heartstrings.

Irrespective of what happens re ENDA, perhaps it would be worthwhile some people thinking through a policy on what AVEN should and shouldn't support in general, and how such decisions are to be made for specific cases?

Yes. That would be a good idea.

[AVENguy]

We've never done support like this before, and I think it's good that we start to raise some of these questions. To your point Hallu- I think that this is strategic for us from a visibility standpoint as well as being politically cool. As a community we have everything to gain by forging strong relationships with queer and GLBT organizations. They are leading a discussion about sexuality that we want to be a part of, they have an international infrastructure built up around visibility and education that beats anything we've got, and it's likely that they could use that infrastructure to help with our work.

Having our name listed somewhere like unitedenda.org sends the message that we're open to those sorts of alliances, and I think that that's a good thing. This vote also isn't a carte blanche for us to make trans issues part of our core platform. I'd move that we consider these sorts of endorsements and alliances on a case-by-case basis either in the PT or the general membership.

[Hallucigenia]

'S a good point, AVENguy.

I guess I should've looked more carefully at the EDNA web page before I posted. There are a lot of organizations like "Bisexual Resource Center" and "Freedom to Marry" that, if you took them literally at their titles, would have as little to do with workplace transgender discrimination as we do. We certainly wouldn't look as out of place on that list as I was picturing.

I must admit that I'm not active in the queer community as such, and perhaps I've been underestimating the extent to which we are expected to be all in this together.

And in any case, if more than 10 to 1 of voting members are for it (at this count) that probably should tell us something.

Question: It says "Coalition Members". What exactly is the coalition doing, besides saying "you know, guys, EDNA is good"? What, if anything, will be expected of us if we get put on the list? Or is it just a generic statement of "we think you are right"?

[FISH']

I think AVEN should support ENDA. Transgenders may not be asexual, but they face the same sort of challenges as asexuals, and obviously to a much more significant degree. I'd say asexuals have it pretty easy compared to transgendered folk.

I'm not much of a activist, but I do know that the decision to step back and allow discrimination is an absolute piss-take of everything the law is supposed to stand for.

And what would AVEN be doing? I hope there's more to it than just adding our logo to the list.

EDIT: But I'm not entirely confident that AVEN, or ENDA, can make any difference at all. I say we should only add support if there's chance of success.

Maybe I'm just adding a contribution of carelessly chosen words because this is happening in a far-off country. I say we should only add support if there's chance of success.

[vikingo]

Endorsement is OK with me seen isolated (which is what I believe was asked :)). Nonetheless - roddy9uk raises some good points. It would be political in its nature requiring (IMO) a visible and formal definition of AVEN as a political group. This transition from (what I experience as) a personal support group/discussion forum to a more politically based group could, could ... I don't know, but its a question of importance.

Like essentially politics is a brain thing and friendship is a heart thing. Damn! I always get sentimental when things are about to change :roll:.

[kbrd143]

I know what you mean, Vikingo. However, this is a transition that I have felt coming for quite some time. Once the Project Team became a reality, with a emphasis on making our little online community a visible place in the real world, it was only a matter of time before something like this came along. And, once one comes along, another will come along and then another. . . .

Will that really change what the website is about? No, not really. It will still be here, as a safe place for the asexuals. The real-world face of AVEN will go through something of a transition, though. And that might mean that our general demographic around here will change. Still, if we are all about standing up for what is right when it directly relates to ourselves, I think that we should be willing to stand up for what is right no matter who it benefits. . . .

Besides which, a constantly recurring theme in the discussions that happen on this board is a general and definate dissatisfaction with the way that sex is portrayed in the general public. The only way that we are ever going to be able to affect any kind of change in this area is to stop griping about it on our own private, little forum and get out there into the real world and say something about it.

And, the way sex and sexuality is portrayed is a direct reflection on how sexuality is experienced and percieved. To get out there and point out that it isn't acceptable to make one, particular group legally inferior might go a long way to changing perceptions in this and other countries. And that is what we are trying to do: change the way that people think about sex and sexuality.

Obviously, there would be a limit. I wouldn't want to see the AVEN name associated with absolutely every group or cause -- NAMBLA fairly leaps to mind -- no AVEN support for them, please -- but causes which support the freedom of all people to live the lives that they have been given without fear of discrimination or reprisal are, as I see it, a part of our charter.

The first question when considering these causes would need to be, "Hey, are these people hurting anybody else?" The answer, here, would be that, no, transgedered people aren't hurting anyone. Whereas, the answer for NAMBLA would be, yes, they are hurting someone. We couldn't, therefore, support something like that. . . . Or, for that matter, some theoretical "Up With Bestiality" group, or somesuch. . . .

[vikingo]

Thanks for explaining KBRD143. My brain understands pretty well what you are saying, and that is why I gave my vote. *Sighs sentimentally*. Brain will be thinking of aspects relating to fora in other languages. Starts thread in AVENes.

[AVENguy]

I signed on and right away got a reply from the Executive Director of the National Center for Transgender Equality:

I am honored to hear that AVEN is signing on to the United ENDA coalition. It really means a lot to the effort and to me personally.

In a few weeks when things calm down on ENDA, I'd love a chance to talk about your work and where we have common interest.

Mara

Mara Keisling

Executive Director

National Center for Transgender Equality

From my handheld

How do ya like that? The NTCE is a very together, very cool org, one that's great for me to be connecting with.

[AVENguy]

Also we got a shout-out in a Salon article on this issue:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/10/08/lgbt/

[SpirallingSnowy]

Im very much a believer in human rights. Im glad that we supporting this :) Transgender issues dont seem to make news over here, atleast not that ive seen .

[Kelly]

*splits thread*

The posts that became a thread on honesty on the 'net has been split and moved here:

http://www.asexuality.org/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=26604

Please continue that discussion in the new thread, and continue the TS equality discussion here.

Thanks, :)

Kelly, Admin

[vikingo]

So far the discussions over this point at AVENes has been very quiet. If nonetheless discussions touching interactions between the AVEN fora are coming up I am interested.

[Revenge of Rain]

This sounds like it would only make the Equal Rights Amendment even less likely, and that's way way more important. Am I totally off in this suspicion?

[roddy9uk]

The real-world face of AVEN will go through something of a transition, though. And that might mean that our general demographic around here will change. Still, if we are all about standing up for what is right when it directly relates to ourselves, I think that we should be willing to stand up for what is right no matter who it benefits. . . .

. .

A transition that I, for one, would not wish to be associated with.

I make my own mind up on issues and will not countenance a "group" doing it for me, however well-intentioned. This is , I stress again, nothing whatsoever to do with the rights or wrongs of any particular "issue". Publicise the issue by all means. That is what a web group is for after all. Argue the cause for (or against). That is what a web group is for. But claim support "on behalf of" anyone? No, that is wholly wrong in my view.

Once a group starts "acting" , as a group, for its members then you inevitably have just a handful of people making the decisions and the actions become those that suit just those handful. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of the issues you have absolutely NO authority to do so. I you support an issue then suport it as an individual. If you are against the issue then oppose it as an individual.

If Aven had been started with the declared aim of joining with such pressure groups then that would be a different circumstance. But it did not start with that aim nor does it declare it to be an aim. The fact that the aims of individual Aven members might overlap with the aims of others does not change this.

You do not even know how many "members" there are in Aven. You know how many have at one time joined but not how many of those that have left. On this poll alone some 665 people have "viewed" it but only some 45 voted. Does that indicate that the poll suggests the broad feeling of the "membership"? To me it simply says that many hundred mebers simply are not interested (and why should they be?). Yet for "Aven" as a body to suport this or any motion would be to imply that those viewing were perfectly happy for that support.

If Avenguy (or whoever) contacted these ENDA people and sid "Out of a total membership of several thousand some 45 people actually support your aims" that would be honest (to a degree) but I cannot see that happening. How many of those who voted "yes" (only 43 to date I would remind you) actually knoiw what they are saying "yes" to? How many of them simply want to see Aven up in lights somehwere and don't really care why?

If I wwere involved in ENDA I am not at all sure I would even want that kind of luke-warm support in the first place.

This is an issue that, in any case, does not relate to Europe or the UK as legislation is in place here and has been for many years countering sex-discimination of any form. ENDA would be better placed using that as a basis for its arguments than simply getting the opinions of stray bodies.

Aven members problems are wholly and totally related to inter-personal issues that cannot be legislated for or against. No asexual has to my knowledge ever suffered any form of "official" discrimination by virtue of their LACK of interest or desire for sex. Aven therefore cannot achieve anything in repsect of "discrimination" as there is nothing to achieve. Aven CAN educate the general world as to the existence of those who are not interested in sex. This might help the inter-personal relationships of those that need that help.

Aven now has "subscribing members", however few and however voluntary. Can you be totally sure that those who have paid agree to their funds being used in this way? No "transition" was mooted when Avenguy asked for the money. To the contrary in fact. He stated quite categorically that no change was intended. In my country (UK) chariities have to be able to supply a clear statement of the aims and intents of the charity (I would assume the same applies in the US) so that just such a conflict can be avoided. Trustees of such charities have been sued in court for failing to restrict themselves to these declared aims. Aven may not be at that stage but hould it not bind itself by similar rules?

I repeat, there is nothing to stop individual members of Aven from supporting ENDA (or any other group) if that is what they wish to do nor should what I have written be read in any way as an implication that they should NOT support ENDA or anything else.

.

roddy

[Kelly]

I signed on and right away got a reply from the Executive Director of the National Center for Transgender Equality:

I repeat' date=' there is nothing to stop individual members of Aven from supporting ENDA[/quote']

True. Whereas the previously mentioned:

http://www.unitedenda.org/

is a place to go for organizations that wish to support inclusive civil rights and equality' date=' [b']individuals[/b] who support trans inclusion in ENDA can sign on here:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/transge...inclusive_ENDA/

About 4,300 individuals have signed so far. :)

*signs*

[xaida]

Does that indicate that the poll suggests the broad feeling of the "membership"? To me it simply says that many hundred mebers simply are not interested (and why should they be?). Yet for "Aven" as a body to suport this or any motion would be to imply that those viewing were perfectly happy for that support.

Thats a good point. I could imagine that people not participating in this poll also just havent seen it, as in parallel there are other threads about this topic started. Maybe one could announce it on the start page and make it more visible. Every voter would have to know that there is an election going on.

If, however, still 99% of the members would not participate, because they simply are not interested lets see what would happen in a political election in this case: the remaining 1% would decide about what the government would look like. Abstentions are maybe an alarming headline, but would not make a change about a government representing *all* people - 99% non-voters included.

I voted with yes, not because it would benefit AVEN on a long- or short-term scale, but because it is just fair. Im grateful to the work the Ls, Gs, Bs and Ts have done so far, also for us. By fighting for their rights long before the first asexual popped up on scene they have created a powerful discourse we can now use to "validate" asexuality as an orientation, not a temporary stage or suppressed, underdeveloped or destroyed original heterosexuality. We can use the same arguments they found to counter similar prejudices to what they had to face and when we run out of arguments draw parallels to their history, which they had worked hard to create in the first place. I think we go pretty much the same way they did, just that our way is already nicely and smoothly trodden down. Can you imaging what had happened if we had had to go first? I think its just fair to back them up now.