Laci Green's new video on Gender

[m4rble]

I like the fact that Laci Green is trying to understand why different groups think the way they do. (don't worry, the video isn't as scary as it looks)

 

[Confusion 0]

Animals do have genders though. How do you account for the differences in behaviour between males and females? They have different brains, AKA: different genders.

Every time someone says gender is a social construct, I just think of animals. Gender roles are socially constructed, but gender itself isn't. But that's just my two cents.

[m4rble]

33 minutes ago, Confusion 0 said:

Animals do have genders though. How do you account for the differences in behaviour between males and females? They have different brains, AKA: different genders.

Every time someone says gender is a social construct, I just think of animals. Gender roles are socially constructed, but gender itself isn't. But that's just my two cents.

Animals only have very limited cultures compared to human culture though, so they don't have culturally prescribed gender roles for the most part. 

[carbomb]

On 6/21/2017 at 3:41 PM, Confusion 0 said:

Animals do have genders though. How do you account for the differences in behaviour between males and females? They have different brains, AKA: different genders.

Every time someone says gender is a social construct, I just think of animals. Gender roles are socially constructed, but gender itself isn't. But that's just my two cents.

I feel like that sort of downplays the immense differences between animals and humans, though.

 

Also I can't believe I've reached the point in my life where I am agreeing with and defending Laci Green against some anti-feminists. 2017's whack, man.

[Confusion 0]

14 hours ago, yourcaptaiin said:

I feel like that sort of downplays the immense differences between animals and humans, though.

 

Also I can't believe I've reached the point in my life where I am agreeing with and defending Laci Green against some anti-feminists. 2017's whack, man.

Who ever said I was an anti-feminist?

[carbomb]

3 hours ago, Confusion 0 said:

Who ever said I was an anti-feminist?

I wasn't talking about you, I was referring to various discussions on other websites. Sorry for the confusion.

[Guest]

It's nice she's willing to discuss and say why she disagrees with some things. It's a good way to have a conversation.  And conversation leads to better understanding on all sides, despite whether one agrees with what is being said by any one side or not.

 

Though, the red scratch marks she gave herself in this video are kind of distracting. They look owwy.  

[m4rble]

Part two is out.

 

[ThaHoward]

On 2.7.2017 at 4:16 AM, Serran said:

It's nice she's willing to discuss and say why she disagrees with some things. It's a good way to have a conversation.  And conversation leads to better understanding on all sides, despite whether one agrees with what is being said by any one side or not.

 

Though, the red scratch marks she gave herself in this video are kind of distracting. They look owwy.  

Her glasses distracted me.. so huge.

[Finn.]

Like honestly, I feel like Laci is just making money off of the whole thing. She made a 360 degree turn and now uses transphobic sensationalizing rhethoric. She's messing up my twitter feed. She makes me feel horrible about myself and other (trans) people. She defends and spreads wrong facts, over-simplifies complex matters and defames innocent people. The whole thing is just super icky and seeing that this video is moving towards 1,5 million views makes it even worse. She creates this huge platform for transphobes, feminist or anti-feminist or whatever, it makes me want to throw up. And presenting herself as the only sane person is super annoying. Yay for putting women against each other. 

I won't rant anymore than this, I am just over it. She f*s the whole thing up, instead of actually creating a conversation, as she claims. We might as well create another generation of feminism over this, or abolish "feminism" and make a whole new word for it. I honestly see this happening, no joke.

[Yatogami]

I feel humans over complicate things, because it's what they are good at. Each shade of red still falls under the red spectrum. But humans gotta try and say each shade is its own color.

[ThaHoward]

1 hour ago, Finn. said:

Like honestly, I feel like Laci is just making money off of the whole thing. She made a 360 degree turn and now uses transphobic sensationalizing rhethoric. She's messing up my twitter feed. She makes me feel horrible about myself and other (trans) people. She defends and spreads wrong facts, over-simplifies complex matters and defames innocent people. The whole thing is just super icky and seeing that this video is moving towards 1,5 million views makes it even worse. She creates this huge platform for transphobes, feminist or anti-feminist or whatever, it makes me want to throw up. And presenting herself as the only sane person is super annoying. Yay for putting women against each other. 

I won't rant anymore than this, I am just over it. She f*s the whole thing up, instead of actually creating a conversation, as she claims. We might as well create another generation of feminism over this, or abolish "feminism" and make a whole new word for it. I honestly see this happening, no joke.

Is it the video(s) you speak of?

[Finn.]

the whole thing started with this: 

 

 

there's whole twitter and youtube feuds, with basically all trans creators I follow or used to follow. yes, feminism and trans issues were a problem even before that, but it's only getting worse. the harassers feel like she is on their side now. it's ridiculous, because for so long she got hate and death threats and now she wants to create reasonable discussions..

[m4rble]

4 hours ago, Finn. said:

Like honestly, I feel like Laci is just making money off of the whole thing. She made a 360 degree turn and now uses transphobic sensationalizing rhethoric. She's messing up my twitter feed. She makes me feel horrible about myself and other (trans) people. She defends and spreads wrong facts, over-simplifies complex matters and defames innocent people. The whole thing is just super icky and seeing that this video is moving towards 1,5 million views makes it even worse. She creates this huge platform for transphobes, feminist or anti-feminist or whatever, it makes me want to throw up. And presenting herself as the only sane person is super annoying. Yay for putting women against each other. 

I won't rant anymore than this, I am just over it. She f*s the whole thing up, instead of actually creating a conversation, as she claims. We might as well create another generation of feminism over this, or abolish "feminism" and make a whole new word for it. I honestly see this happening, no joke.

I'm sorry you feel bad about her videos. It seems to me she's not actually saying she agrees with the views she's presenting, she just wants to understand them better. I think it's good to understand different views even if you're strongly opposed to them. She may be doing it for attention, I can't really tell. I do think it's wrong to tell people it's transphobic to not have sex with trans people, that's basically sexual coercion. I radfems often don't seem to understand dysphoria. 

[m4rble]

3 hours ago, Yato God of Tofu said:

I feel humans over complicate things, because it's what they are good at. Each shade of red still falls under the red spectrum. But humans gotta try and say each shade is its own color.

It's exactly the opposite, people try to put a lot of distinct ideas or things into categories in order to understand an extremely complex world. Each shade of red is a distinct color but we categorize them all as red. 

[Finn.]

4 minutes ago, m4rble said:

I do think it's wrong to tell people it's transphobic to not have sex with trans people,

yeah, but nobody ever said that, it's just how their rhethoric goes. i won't discuss this here now, the whole (fruitless) discussion is dominating my online space enough, and has for the last two to three months at least. thanks to laci. it's a lot to take, and I am close to unfollowing people for it, people who are only trying to defend themselves when she puts words into their mouths. if you want more info on this, you can check out the following people (and their twitter accounts):

 

Spoiler

 

 

[m4rble]

1 minute ago, Finn. said:

yeah, but nobody ever said that, it's just how their rhethoric goes. i won't discuss this here now, the whole (fruitless) discussion is dominating my online space enough, and has for the last two to three months at least. thanks to laci. it's a lot to take, and I am close to unfollowing people for it, people who are only trying to defend themselves when she puts words into their mouths. if you want more info on this, you can check out the following people (and their twitter accounts):

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

But people do say that, almost exactly. It might not be the majority by any means, but I've seen Riley's video, and that's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Sexual boundaries should always come first, and shouldn't be treated in a suspicious way. If I don't want sex with someone, I find it disturbing that they might be able to speculate that it's due to transphobia. Accusing potential sexual partners of transphobia simply because they didn't want sex seems to be exactly what Chase is doing in this video. I like Chase as a content creator but this video creeped me out.

Spoiler

 

 

I did agree with most of Kat Black's video, but I don't think we have enough information to say Laci's motivation was money. I disagree with a lot of her recent statements though. 

[m4rble]

1 hour ago, m4rble said:

But people do say that, almost exactly. It might not be the majority by any means, but I've seen Riley's video, and that's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Sexual boundaries should always come first, and shouldn't be treated in a suspicious way. If I don't want sex with someone, I find it disturbing that they might be able to speculate that it's due to transphobia. Accusing potential sexual partners of transphobia simply because they didn't want sex seems to be exactly what Chase is doing in this video. I like Chase as a content creator but this video creeped me out.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

I did agree with most of Kat Black's video, but I don't think we have enough information to say Laci's motivation was money. I disagree with a lot of her recent statements though. 

Of course, I may just be particularly sensitive to that issue due to my own sexual disgust. 

[Finn.]

I'm not saying I agree with all statements in the videos. But in general, I'm on the side of these content creators. Especially because they suffer from a lot of transphobia and bullying that people like Laci and the people she surrounds herself with send their way. The problem starts in the whole of youtube (and internet) culture, and Laci plays right into it. She's smart, she knows exactly what she's doing.

[Confusion 0]

Just now, Finn. said:

I'm not saying I agree with all statements in the videos. But in general, I'm on the side of these content creators. Especially because they suffer from a lot of transphobia and bullying that people like Laci and the people she surrounds herself with send their way. The problem starts in the whole of youtube (and internet) culture, and Laci plays right into it. She's smart, she knows exactly what she's doing.

I'm on the side of the internet (specifically Youtube) Laci is having discussions with. "People like Laci" aren't transphobic. I'm not transphobic. The transphobes are the minority. Feminism has TERFs too.

All Laci is doing is opening up to outside ideas. A lot of feminists create echo chambers, and block out ideas they don't agree with. I guess Laci realized this, and is trying to change.

[Guest]

15 hours ago, m4rble said:

But people do say that, almost exactly. It might not be the majority by any means, but I've seen Riley's video, and that's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. 

See, after so many people said Riley's videos said that, I watched Riley's videos and would like to offer a different perspective on this one. 

 

In her videos, she basically says to examine your reasons for why you might not date a trans person. My take away from it was that some people are not willing, due to internal transphobic views they may not even be aware of themselves. Which, I can relate to, honestly. I am not transgender and, I used to basically not be willing to date anyone that was trans. Why? I honestly can't give you a reason, beyond I was cis and hetero, therefore I was looking for cis and hetero. Which is ridiculous, when I examined it. But, if I had never been challenged to examine this, would I have done it myself? Probably not. And it's fair to challenge people to examine the reasons why they may be saying they won't do something. Riley also goes into a bit of a rant about there being legitimate reasons for not dating certain people in one video. So, I never got the message "If you won't have sex with me, you're transphobic". I got the message, people like old me, challenge yourselves and examine if you have a legitimate reason, or if you're just doing it because of the taboo around trans issues and might not even have a natural aversion to it yourself, you might surprise yourselves. And, personally, I very much appreciate people who gave me a slap in the face to get over those taboos meaning anything to me, because they didn't match my actual feelings on the subject. 

 

Now, Riley is young and this is an emotional topic so I don't think they translate things perfectly by any means. But, that's how I take her videos on it that I saw, coming from the perspective of someone who used to be exactly the person she was talking about. 

[Finn.]

10 minutes ago, Confusion 0 said:

I'm on the side of the internet (specifically Youtube) Laci is having discussions with. "People like Laci" aren't transphobic. I'm not transphobic. The transphobes are the minority. Feminism has TERFs too.

Feminism isn't unproblematic. I am very aware of TERFs. I will not go into the "don't call me transphobic" debate now. Fact is, that a lot of the people watching her videos and siding with her, are the ones bullying trans creators. With great power comes great responsibility, and Laci is powerfully on trend right now.

[LenaLuthor]

I recognize more than two genders. However, if if one does not, I will not be upset with them if they recognize that a great deal of gender roles and restrictions are ridiculous. My biggest problem with the video is that nothing is really said. Yes, words come out. However, they have little meaning and seem to be little more than rambling.

[ThaHoward]

33 minutes ago, AliceAbernathy said:

I recognize more than two genders. However, if if one does not, I will not be upset with them if they recognize that a great deal of gender roles and restrictions are ridiculous. My biggest problem with the video is that nothing is really said. Yes, words come out. However, they have little meaning and seem to be little more than rambling.

I agree that not much was not said. But for many who really aren't that involved in gender studies and feminist ideology and the whole youtube drama that supposedly exist it is a nice introduction - like me who haven't heard of any of this until I saw this video. However I don't see how any of this is transphobic or anything. 

[m4rble]

2 hours ago, Serran said:

See, after so many people said Riley's videos said that, I watched Riley's videos and would like to offer a different perspective on this one. 

 

In her videos, she basically says to examine your reasons for why you might not date a trans person. My take away from it was that some people are not willing, due to internal transphobic views they may not even be aware of themselves. Which, I can relate to, honestly. I am not transgender and, I used to basically not be willing to date anyone that was trans. Why? I honestly can't give you a reason, beyond I was cis and hetero, therefore I was looking for cis and hetero. Which is ridiculous, when I examined it. But, if I had never been challenged to examine this, would I have done it myself? Probably not. And it's fair to challenge people to examine the reasons why they may be saying they won't do something. Riley also goes into a bit of a rant about there being legitimate reasons for not dating certain people in one video. So, I never got the message "If you won't have sex with me, you're transphobic". I got the message, people like old me, challenge yourselves and examine if you have a legitimate reason, or if you're just doing it because of the taboo around trans issues and might not even have a natural aversion to it yourself, you might surprise yourselves. And, personally, I very much appreciate people who gave me a slap in the face to get over those taboos meaning anything to me, because they didn't match my actual feelings on the subject. 

 

Now, Riley is young and this is an emotional topic so I don't think they translate things perfectly by any means. But, that's how I take her videos on it that I saw, coming from the perspective of someone who used to be exactly the person she was talking about. 

I don't have as much of a problem when they talk about dating, but it seems very wrong to tell people that saying no to sex, regardless of their reason for doing so, is wrong. It also feels different to have sex with different genitals, of course people can have sex in different ways and trans people can be pre-op or post-op, so it's not like it's irrelevant. I don't really feel differently about dating or having sex with cis people, but I don't have to constantly worry about my character being judged for that reason. 

 

I understand these people experience a lot of transphobia, in ways I probably can't really understand, but I'm just trying to explain why those statements made me feel uncomfortable. I can see how your view on this may be different due to having different experiences and maybe I was just reacting too strongly.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, m4rble said:

I don't have as much of a problem when they talk about dating, but it seems very wrong to tell people that saying no to sex, regardless of their reason for doing so, is wrong. It also feels different to have sex with different genitals, of course people can have sex in different ways and trans people can be pre-op or post-op, so it's not like it's irrelevant. I don't really feel differently about dating or having sex with cis people, but I don't have to constantly worry about my character being judged for that reason. 

 

I understand these people experience a lot of transphobia, in ways I probably can't really understand, but I'm just trying to explain why those statements made me feel uncomfortable. I can see how your view on this may be different due to having different experiences and maybe I was just reacting too strongly.

I think Riley could have worded what they were saying much better, for sure. But, if I say "I won't sleep with a trans person" and when asked "why?" I answer "cause... I dunno, cause trans", then there is probably a good reason to at least look at myself and maybe think more on it. For sexual people, dating and sex are closely tied, so I kind of see those two things as the same conversation, rather than separate ones. Of course one can and should always be allowed to say no, for any reasons, even "bad" ones, but that doesn't mean one shouldn't still take a look at their reasons, just because it's sex and consent should be clear and not cause distress to the person giving it. In one of Riley's videos, she says she isn't saying people are "bad people" for it, just that such bias can exist without the person even knowing it does. Which, is true, it can. 

 

*shrug* I mean, it's not always transphobic, but it can be based in transphobic taboos and opinions, so I think it's a good conversation to have. Though, I think it is one Riley and others get a bit too personally tied to (for obvious reasons) and it makes it hard to actually have a productive conversation with people who either hold such biases, or just have preferences but are likely to think you're talking about them if you don't word it just right. 

[ThaHoward]

Some simply don't want to have sex with trans people and we got to respect that and not call them transphobic etc. It's really not in our place to shame them for following their own needs. It remind me of the whole "but I'm a good guy" thing. Simply being good or a certain gender don't qualify you for getting what you want. 

[Mostly Peaceful Ryan]

@Serran People shouldn't need a reason to refuse having sex with someone. It's that basic, sure they could be doing it out of bigotry or they could be doing it out of the fact they aren't attracted to that person. whether it be based off of genitals or anything. It's wrong of Riley or anyone else to shame people for not wanting to have sex with a Transgender person, just like it would be wrong to shame an asexual for not having sex with anyone. At the end of the day it is that person's body and no one should dictate whom they sleep with. I'm sorry to say even if you or Riley worded this argument perfectly it would still be flat out wrong. There isn't a conversation here that needs to be had at all, if a person doesn't want to sleep with a Trans person that is the end of the conversation about it.

 

[ThaHoward]

3 minutes ago, ♣Ryan♣ said:

@Serran People shouldn't need a reason to refuse having sex with someone. It's that basic, sure they could be doing it out of bigotry or they could be doing it out of the fact they aren't attracted to that person. whether it be based off of genitals or anything. It's wrong of Riley or anyone else to shame people for not wanting to have sex with a Transgender person, just like it would be wrong to shame an asexual for not having sex with anyone. At the end of the day it is that person's body and no one should dictate whom they sleep with. I'm sorry to say even if you or Riley worded this argument perfectly it would still be flat out wrong. There isn't a conversation here that needs to be had at all, if a person doesn't want to sleep with a Trans person that is the end of the conversation about it.

 

I believe you shouldn't consent who to have sex with or want to do it..

[binary suns]

I look at Laci twitter since July and she just has random comments. I don't see much about transphobia there. or do you mean that saying 

 

holier-than-thou claims that sex "doesn't really exist" or that i'm female bc i "identify that way" is truly bizarre and backward leftism.

 

is transphobic? if so, how??? gender is not some simple lingual trick or there wouldn't be heated discussion over it. denying that a person's gender as interpreted by random strangers (read: checkout clerks seeing a person and being required by job description to say hello sir or hello madam) is a relevant identity is as short-sighted as denying that a person self-identifying their gender being relevant is. but focusing on either side of the discussion in lieu of the other just ain't phobia. it's nothing but opinion, caring too much about one thing to the point that you disregard another.

 

fuck, I don't even understand why there's an argument between those two sides at all, they're both blinding themselves to the possibility that people caring about something in and if itself makes that something meaningful, somehow trying to write off the other opinion as 100% wrong. what a silly thing, humanity!

 

 

 

if you want to claim that a person's self identity should inherently be respected then go ahead and make that argument. but your opponents to that argument aren't phobic. they just value the complexity of the discussion differently than you.