Gender IS NOT Entirely A Social Construct

[Niko.]

Eh, I actually agree with the position that some mtf folks are motivated primarily by kink, not gender issues. It's sexual for them.

I've known people who transitioned, only to later regret it. Ok, I've known two. But they both also had horrific eating disorders, which I take to mean that have a generalized disconnect or hatred with their physical being, but no matter what changes they make, they're still unhappy.

None of that means trans people aren't real, though.

If someone is doing it for the "kink" I think there is some other DEEP problem involved, and should not only denied treatment, but should be followed closely by a therapist.

You risk your life transitioning (hormone dosage, eventually surgery) just for the "kink" stuff? Either you're completely blown off in the mind or you've also got other motivations pushing you to do it... that's scary to read, honestly.

[Lost247365]

Is anyone actually reading the article? What I'm seeing for responses are regurgitated copies of statements from previous threads (where I've seen the same stuff posted verbatim). Beyond that, I'm also not seeing any indication that the information was viewed in context beyond the quote I posted..

In 3+ years of being on here, this is the first thread I've ever started. It will also be the last.

I have always defaulted to male preferences and behavior, despite being AFAB. Being exposed to

societal expectations hasn't affected this one way or another.

Honestly, when I looked at your thread I didn't see the link and just saw the part that said:

Gender Mostly used for cultural behaviors such as dress, mannerisms, signs of deference, et cetera, that differentiate the sexes, gender itself is not entirely a social construct. As already mentioned, neuroscience research over the past few decades indicates through an overwhelming amount of evidence that gender is not a blank slate that is imparted entirely by civilization, but rather has some inherent characteristics that manifest regardless of upbringing or environment.

And responded to that. My apologies.

As for the actual article, my feelings are really mixed. It makes me statements that I agree with, and many that I strongly disagree with. For one, while I think listing the various types of chromosomal types is something that should be done more, As a person with a degree in biology that is gathering dust, I greatly dislike the author trying to claim these are different sexes in their own right. In biology, sex is not simply chromosomes. Rather, biology breaks things down into two parts genotype (what genes a person/animal/plant/etc has) and phenotype (how those genes are expressed). This is especially true when it comes to one's sex.

Two of the best examples of this is Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS) and de la Chapelle syndrome.

In the former you have a person with an XY genotype but a mostly female phenotype. In this condition the gene for androgen receptors has been disrupted somehow and the body can't react to testosterone. Because of this, and the fact that we all start off morphologically female, a person will be born who has is female in every way except that she has an XY chromosome, undeveloped testes in the place of ovaries, and (depending on whether another nearby gene is knocked out or not) no womb. These people have female genitalia and usually develop female gender identities. Saying that their sex is not female, because their chromosomes is XY, is laughable at best.

De la Chapelle syndrome can be somewhat considered the opposite condition. A biological male with an XX genotype. In this case the sry gene, or male determining gene, undergoes a process called crossing over and ends up on the X chromosome. This causes the embryo to develop a male phenotype. They have male genitals and also almost always have male gender identities. To call these people female because of their chromosomes is just as laughable as calling a CIAS woman a man.

Sex is ultimately a very nebulous concept, and gender more so. It can't be encapsulated in a simple single sentence definition, especially if you want to use biology to back you up.

Other areas of the article where I generally agree with the article is on Chimera syndrome, and David Reimer. But I every time I start feeling like I liked the article it kept on making claims that were distortions of the facts. It link about transgender regret was greatly exaggerated and made it seem like getting SRS is easy and tons of people are arbitrary going and getting it. Even when it does admit the truth that it take a large amount of counselling, multiple shrinks signing off on it, and 1-2 years of living as the other sex full time, it dismisses that like it is nothing. No, those are some pretty hard standards.

I really, really dislike had it got into trans-elitism. I literally cringed when it said "legitimate trangender individuals." Transgender is about identity, everyone who identifies with the other gender is transgender. Transsexual, on the other hand, refers to those who have transitioned or are in the process of transitioning to the other gender. You can have an illegitimate transsexual, but you can't have an "illegitimate" transgender individual unless you are saying that they are lying about identifying as the other gender. Not to mention, I don't see what makes one a "fringe activist" who discusses women with penises. Almost every mtf transsexual pre-op meets that definition. And I strongly disagree that different vocabularies are the result of most of the conflicts in this area. Transphobia is the main cause of conflict and it doesn't give a crap about definition.

But despite my critique sounding mostly negative, I do agree with the articles main assertion. Gender has a biological component and cannot be relegated to being purely social. Which goes back to my initial reply. Just, I couldn't help but being distracted by the things I listed.

[Lost247365]

Okay the kink thing.

I can see how it could be nothing more than a kink for someone like me. I am not transitioning and I try, and I try, and try to separate it from my own feelings but I just am not able to. I think it is something more because I often just imagine myself doing mundane chores as a female or when it is really strong the erotic feelings go away and I begin becoming more and more distressed. When it is really bad, even ... um ... reliev ...lets just say nothing I do get the feelings to go away.

When I am really caught up in the feeling I am so certain it is more than a kink, but when the feelings leave me I just feel hollow. During that time I start thinking I am losing my mind to this stupid thing. Cause, no matter how hard I try, I just can't say for sure.

Now for someone who had decided to transition, I think the situation is very different from my own. When a person transitions they start off on hormones, estrogen and anti-androgens. The latter, when taken by a cis-male is usually called Chemical castration. It greatly lowers libido, and often results in impotence. It is also a treatment for controling fetishes.

So, I would imagine, that the moment that a mtf person started taking hormones the kink would be shrunk to almost nothing, and if there wasn't something more than a fetish transition would lost almost all its appeal....much less SRS. So, I just find the idea that someone transitioned because of the kink hard to believe.

Personally, I think a better view of the whole issue with this is expressed by this blog:

http://transcendmovement.com/crossdreaming-as-a-symptom-of-being-transgender/

Especially the part where he talks about how not all transpeople know their trans from early childhood. I can't speak for others, but I have a very poor sense of gender. I suspect there are many people this; and I suspect that many cis-people that are like this and becomes what this other article calls cis-by-default (I think we call this cis-genderless here on AVEN).

https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2015/01/28/cis-by-default/

I suspect that a trans mtf kid with a weak sense of gender will say "well I have a male body and everyone tells me I am male so I must be male." And from that point on, they build a male identity until puberty hits. Then bam! Their sexuality develops.

While their sense of gender is weak, sexuality is a strong biological impulse and is felt much clearly. But instead of being the usual male sexuality associated with their orientation (hetero, homo, bi, or ace) it is a sexuality that revolves around them being female. In other words, the gender identity that they couldn't feel before comes roaring to life and begins asserting itself at that point. And slowly, all those years of socialization and coping mechanisms that have been suppressing their gender identity come crumbling down.

So to me, I feel that the so called kink, is in fact a very strong symptom of a trans identity. Of course, I also think that gender identity, and the degree of dysphoria lie on a spectrum and how this all plays out can vary. Maybe some people it never develops beyond a kink, while in others it will become more given enough time.

Of course this is only speculation on my part. Not even scientific speculation at that. Just random thoughts.

And since we are discussing the kink, I would like to post this comic I came across the other day and its explanation which i love <3

Click on the individual pics to make them bigger!

https://lifeofbria.com/

[Emery.]

I personally don't understand the concept of kink versus "legitimate" gender issues - someone wants SRS, is sure about this, is mentally healthy - what's the problem? They other way round - should all people "align" even if they don't want to?

The brain-body mismatch is a wierd thing to discover in yourself, but, seriously... It doesn't mean you have to "repair" anything either, as long as you're happy with yourself. See e.g. the concept of "stone butch".

There is nothing wrong with kinks, as long as all stuff is safe and consensual.

[butterflydreams]

I personally don't understand the concept of kink versus "legitimate" gender issues - someone wants SRS, is sure about this, is mentally healthy - what's the problem? They other way round - should all people "align" even if they don't want to?

Agreed, but the twist in this case is that trans people already have a really hard time accessing care and transition. The issue that many of them have (and it's easy to understand) is that if people who don't technically "need" to transition start to transition, it'll 1) make people less willing to accept that transition is something that should be covered by insurance and 2) it'll introduce many wild cards into a process that as of right now is very successful at helping people.

Say all these people just want to transition for kink reasons. I don't really have a problem with that, but if doing so dramatically increases the rate at which people de-transition, or have surgical regret, it might do harm to the perception of transition as a way of helping people. And like it or not, a lot of the system depends on enough people agreeing that transition is a way of helping people. Surgeons for example have careers that depend on their personal result numbers. If the numbers go bad, they might be unwilling to operate on anyone.

I mean there's one guy out there who runs a site called "sexchangeregret.com". I've seen countless detractors and people who hate trans people cite this one guy as if his word were an infallible representation of everyone. Imagine if there were a few hundred of him. Not saying him or the few hundred are right, but it's fuel to a fire we don't need.

It's a very touchy subject and I can certainly see the feelings of both sides. Obviously I'm kind of on the side that I'm transitioning because I needed to, and because it's dramatically helping me. But generally, as long as I feel respected, I'm fine with whatever others want to do.

[R_1]

Regarding transitioning, this is one of those times where I think it should be by case-to-case basis as transitioning is not for everyone. Would stimulations.... Oh wait, no such thing, but could it help discriminate who would be better off not transitioning vs those who are?

[ChillaKilla]

Regarding transitioning, this is one of those times where I think it should be by case-to-case basis as transitioning is not for everyone. Would stimulations.... Oh wait, no such thing, but could it help discriminate who would be better off not transitioning vs those who are?

Simulations, you mean? Man I wish those existed

[Niko.]

Regarding transitioning, this is one of those times where I think it should be by case-to-case basis as transitioning is not for everyone. Would stimulations.... Oh wait, no such thing, but could it help discriminate who would be better off not transitioning vs those who are?

Simulations, you mean? Man I wish those existed

Technically (and clinically) speaking, the whole process of living as "the opposite gender" (but is it a necessary step? Are we really serious that people need to switch pronouns, take a new name, and all that? Why are we trying a simulation of an extreme?) for a while is to simulate not only your reaction to that thing, but also to see what type of person you are: you go along with what others expect from you? Or you create your own image? Are you just confused about social roles or you really want to change sex?

---

I'll offer my POV, but I "know" (read: we're in the same facebook group) atleast 2 guys (1 girl and 1 guy) who are in a situation similar to mine: they're genderqueer, they HAD TO tell the therapist that they wanted to transition because OH MY GOD I SO WANT TO BE A GUY (or girl) AND BEING CALLED WITH A DIFFERENT NAME AND A DIFFERENT PRONOUN WHILE WEARING THESE FRILLY DRESSES AND LET MY BODY BE DEVASTATED BY HORMONES (or butchy trousers, in the guy case) but, infact, it was more like a being in the middle, just with this small but huge difference of being in the middle... but a little more on the other gender than the one they were born with.

This case is usually called, with a technicality, "the grey area", and it is so referred because it's a (dangerous) zone to investigate as you may come across different problems which then LEAD TO that feeling of gender dysphoria. You would think that a professionist, as in common logic, would get you treated as a POSSIBLE transgender, and your therapy will focus on finding it out... truth is, both of these guys found people who misinterpreted this and instead thought there were other problems, and took a lot of time finding them out, one by one, making them lose time and not investigating the right things.

The fact that one wants to change sex while mantaining a more prominent indifference to gender (or blindness?) is a rare case and it's also a case which may result in sexchangeregret.com .

The whole point of "kink" is, like this case - atleast in my experience and reading - a rare occurrence, mostly because of the treatment you go through (anti-androgens really kill libido, especially if you do not associate hormones near it, I can assure you, I had to take them alone, without an hormone treatment along it, and it was... well. It was crazy. Libido really drops below your shoes, and you find it again after months of stopping it.

Any "kink" you may get or develop would eventually just wilt away (and in my case, because I had unexpected hormone levels, a lot of crazy kinks really faded away... expect one, I think you can guess which one ) and I think that's something to account for when we're talking about a kink reason to do it.

[R_1]

Technically (and clinically) speaking, the whole process of living as "the opposite gender" (but is it a necessary step? Are we really serious that people need to switch pronouns, take a new name, and all that? Why are we trying a simulation of an extreme?) for a while is to simulate not only your reaction to that thing, but also to see what type of person you are: you go along with what others expect from you? Or you create your own image? Are you just confused about social roles or you really want to change sex?

---

That's the exact point of the hypothetical gender switch stimulation, and the idea behind it is patients can attempt to try to gather insights based on their experience with the hypothetical gender switch simulation before deciding to go for transitioning, and to tease out who actually needs transitioning and those who are better off without it. Really, there has to be a way to reduce a number of people making a mistake of deciding to transition, and those who actually are better off with one. Neutral therapists can only go so far. I'm not sure whether such a hypothetical thing would actually help.

The closest I can think of involves actually using chemicals to alter hormonal state and how your body feels, and perhaps cosmetic changes to make them more of the body they want. But, that can only go so far. For the chest part, I actually have some ideas for that, but of course there's issues with my cosmetic part, and for the bottom, well, there lies some issues.

[Lost247365]

Self-deleted

[Chardog]

Simulations- Real Life Experience is REQUIRED for bottom surgery. WPATH has relaxed this for hormones and top surgery somewhat and there are some doctors who approach those with the informed consent model. The whole transition for reasons other than being fully transgender thing is supposed to be caught through the safety net of real life experience and having psychological "gate keepers" that catch those people..

The kink thing- This is essentially what being a transvestite is (paraphilic transvestism). There are tons of people like that who quietly practice their cross dressing kink and in no way pursue transitioning (and you would never know IRL that these people do this because it's a behind closed doors thing). You don't hear about them!! The problem comes with the ones that do go through with transitioning and then you do hear about it...And people who have negative experiences tend to speak louder than those with positive ones (and people listen).

[ChillaKilla]

Ugh. I'm afraid I'll have to do my share of lying about my trans status just to get the medical procedures I need. I'm gonna have to spew a lot of "I was born in the wrong body and knew since I was born" bullcrap

[Emery.]

Ugh. I'm afraid I'll have to do my share of lying about my trans status just to get the medical procedures I need. I'm gonna have to spew a lot of "I was born in the wrong body and knew since I was born" bullcrap

I can give you my portion of "I was born in the wrong body and I knew since I could think". Take it. I want to be a female and bear kids now that I know that I was meant to be male.

I actually don't believe I'm so binary trans after all that "maybe I'm genderqueer?" and I don't belive that I actually say that I always knew I was born in the wrong body.

[Guest]

whether gender is a social construct or not, I think it doesn't really matter.

At the end of the day, people should be able to do what they want, so long as it doesn't hurt others.

And enforcing gender unto people in a society can't be justified by saying its "hardwired", by that logic rape shouldn't be illegal because it happens in the animal kingdom. Gender neutral parenting is a thing, and personally I think that there is a ton of pseudo science out there regarding this subject.

But that's just my two cents.

[just an owl]

Simulations- Real Life Experience is REQUIRED for bottom surgery. WPATH has relaxed this for hormones and top surgery somewhat and there are some doctors who approach those with the informed consent model. The whole transition for reasons other than being fully transgender thing is supposed to be caught through the safety net of real life experience and having psychological "gate keepers" that catch those people..

I guess this varies from place to place? In the UK, (on the NHS at least, not fully aware of everything about privately transitioning) you need some real life experience (with the "assessment period" in place it'll be about 6 months in total) to get hormones.

[Niko.]

Here the period isn't REQUIRED, you need only the certificate from a therapist... a lot of people even avoids this by going to private doctors. It's really dangerous.

I'm sure there is something to avoid this kind of problem, but it's also true that enforcing a binary choosing while transitioning is such an horrible thing that I don't get how it can be practitioned freely...

It's CRAZY to NEED to lie in front of the therapist to receive hormone treatment...

[JAKQ7111]

Okay the kink thing.

I can see how it could be nothing more than a kink for someone like me. I am not transitioning and I try, and I try, and try to separate it from my own feelings but I just am not able to. I think it is something more because I often just imagine myself doing mundane chores as a female or when it is really strong the erotic feelings go away and I begin becoming more and more distressed. When it is really bad, even ... um ... reliev ...lets just say nothing I do get the feelings to go away.

When I am really caught up in the feeling I am so certain it is more than a kink, but when the feelings leave me I just feel hollow. During that time I start thinking I am losing my mind to this stupid thing. Cause, no matter how hard I try, I just can't say for sure.

Now for someone who had decided to transition, I think the situation is very different from my own. When a person transitions they start off on hormones, estrogen and anti-androgens. The latter, when taken by a cis-male is usually called Chemical castration. It greatly lowers libido, and often results in impotence. It is also a treatment for controling fetishes.

So, I would imagine, that the moment that a mtf person started taking hormones the kink would be shrunk to almost nothing, and if there wasn't something more than a fetish transition would lost almost all its appeal....much less SRS. So, I just find the idea that someone transitioned because of the kink hard to believe.

Personally, I think a better view of the whole issue with this is expressed by this blog:

http://transcendmovement.com/crossdreaming-as-a-symptom-of-being-transgender/

Especially the part where he talks about how not all transpeople know their trans from early childhood. I can't speak for others, but I have a very poor sense of gender. I suspect there are many people this; and I suspect that many cis-people that are like this and becomes what this other article calls cis-by-default (I think we call this cis-genderless here on AVEN).

https://thingofthings.wordpress.com/2015/01/28/cis-by-default/

I suspect that a trans mtf kid with a weak sense of gender will say "well I have a male body and everyone tells me I am male so I must be male." And from that point on, they build a male identity until puberty hits. Then bam! Their sexuality develops.

While their sense of gender is weak, sexuality is a strong biological impulse and is felt much clearly. But instead of being the usual male sexuality associated with their orientation (hetero, homo, bi, or ace) it is a sexuality that revolves around them being female. In other words, the gender identity that they couldn't feel before comes roaring to life and begins asserting itself at that point. And slowly, all those years of socialization and coping mechanisms that have been suppressing their gender identity come crumbling down.

So to me, I feel that the so called kink, is in fact a very strong symptom of a trans identity. Of course, I also think that gender identity, and the degree of dysphoria lie on a spectrum and how this all plays out can vary. Maybe some people it never develops beyond a kink, while in others it will become more given enough time.

Of course this is only speculation on my part. Not even scientific speculation at that. Just random thoughts.

And since we are discussing the kink, I would like to post this comic I came across the other day and its explanation which i love <3

Click on the individual pics to make them bigger!

https://lifeofbria.com/

Eh, I actually agree with the position that some mtf folks are motivated primarily by kink, not gender issues. It's sexual for them.

I've known people who transitioned, only to later regret it. Ok, I've known two. But they both also had horrific eating disorders, which I take to mean that have a generalized disconnect or hatred with their physical being, but no matter what changes they make, they're still unhappy.

None of that means trans people aren't real, though.

If someone is doing it for the "kink" I think there is some other DEEP problem involved, and should not only denied treatment, but should be followed closely by a therapist.

You risk your life transitioning (hormone dosage, eventually surgery) just for the "kink" stuff? Either you're completely blown off in the mind or you've also got other motivations pushing you to do it... that's scary to read, honestly.

Re: All of this trans-feminine kink stuff: I have a question to ask of y'all. While yes, I am genderfluid, and feel myself swinging along a pendulum between masculinity and femininity, where I swing is often contextually dependent. The biggest example I can think of is that I am many times more confident in romantic situations when presenting femininely. I am almost positive that I could not be comfortable dating as a man, despite having a sometimes-masculine identity in other situations. I'm thinking part of that is due to past trauma with romantic rejections/being called "creepy" or "stalker" (the former term at least being much more gendered these days, against men)one too many times by people of romantic interest. Now, dating is not the only situation in which I feel more feminine than masculine, but it is the biggest one where I feel I can pretty much exclusively feel comfortable in a feminine identity/presentation. This is why I don't think I can date straight women anymore, and could never really date gay men.

Aaaaaaaanyway, do you think that "trans women motivated by kink" are actually like me, or am I one of them, or is it something else that I am missing?

[Lost247365]

Re: All of this trans-feminine kink stuff: I have a question to ask of y'all. While yes, I am genderfluid, and feel myself swinging along a pendulum between masculinity and femininity, where I swing is often contextually dependent. The biggest example I can think of is that I am many times more confident in romantic situations when presenting femininely. I am almost positive that I could not be comfortable dating as a man, despite having a sometimes-masculine identity in other situations. I'm thinking part of that is due to past trauma with romantic rejections/being called "creepy" or "stalker" (the former term at least being much more gendered these days, against men)one too many times by people of romantic interest. Now, dating is not the only situation in which I feel more feminine than masculine, but it is the biggest one where I feel I can pretty much exclusively feel comfortable in a feminine identity/presentation. This is why I don't think I can date straight women anymore, and could never really date gay men.

Aaaaaaaanyway, do you think that "trans women motivated by kink" are actually like me, or am I one of them, or is it something else that I am missing?

I think we are discussing something different.

What I am discussing is called the Blachard/Bailey/Lawerence theory of transexuality. This (debunked and unscientific) theory holds that there are two types of mtf transexuals.

• The theory calls the first group homosexual transexuals. According to the theory these are are homosexual men who want to become women to better attract other men.
• The second group are non-homosexual men who have the sexual fetish: autogynephilia. They want to become women to get off sexually.

So obviously, the kink, is referring to the latter group. Autogynephilia is the fetish where men get aroused by imagining themselves as women. Supposedly, over time, the fetish slowly get the better of these men and cause Gender Dysphoria. Eventually, the fetish gets the better of these men and they seek to transition.

According to this, transexualism is caused by a "kink." However, many transacrtivists feel this is a transphobic theory and that the "kink" is a symptom of being transgender rather than the cause.

For more information:

http://www.crossdreamers.com/2008/01/readers-guide-to-confessions-of.html

Nothing that you posted, as far as I can see, show me any sign of your gender fluidity being driven by the kink/autogynephilia. I mean, do you get physically aroused imagining yourself as the sex opposite of the one you were assigned at any time?

[Chardog]

Here the period isn't REQUIRED, you need only the certificate from a therapist... a lot of people even avoids this by going to private doctors. It's really dangerous.

I'm sure there is something to avoid this kind of problem, but it's also true that enforcing a binary choosing while transitioning is such an horrible thing that I don't get how it can be practitioned freely...

It's CRAZY to NEED to lie in front of the therapist to receive hormone treatment...

The lack of real life experience before getting hormones isn't dangerous.. Two things- 1. Many effects of hormones are reversible to some degree if you discontinue them. 2. Unless you're really androgynous in appearance and can pull some level of passing without ANY medical intervention, real life experience pre-hormones can be extremely awkward because you're not going to pass (which is the point of it in the first place, to understand the implications of passing as your target gender). That is why there are doctors who will do informed consent on the early stages of transition.

[Niko.]

Re: All of this trans-feminine kink stuff: I have a question to ask of y'all. While yes, I am genderfluid, and feel myself swinging along a pendulum between masculinity and femininity, where I swing is often contextually dependent. The biggest example I can think of is that I am many times more confident in romantic situations when presenting femininely. I am almost positive that I could not be comfortable dating as a man, despite having a sometimes-masculine identity in other situations. I'm thinking part of that is due to past trauma with romantic rejections/being called "creepy" or "stalker" (the former term at least being much more gendered these days, against men)one too many times by people of romantic interest. Now, dating is not the only situation in which I feel more feminine than masculine, but it is the biggest one where I feel I can pretty much exclusively feel comfortable in a feminine identity/presentation. This is why I don't think I can date straight women anymore, and could never really date gay men.

Aaaaaaaanyway, do you think that "trans women motivated by kink" are actually like me, or am I one of them, or is it something else that I am missing?

Actually, we're talking (atleast, I concluded) about people who get aroused (but are generically comfortable in a sexual situation SPECIFICALLY) while wearing other gender's dresses, or, more generically speaking, not having a reason to transition behind the "I want to have sex like this".

Honestly speaking, your situation sounds more like a problem with gender roles than something else, and I think you should de-stigmatize, in your mind, the picture someone else drew to you about "being a man". Being feminine, or less "rude" or even "creepy" does not make you less of a man, mostly 'cause "man" is a rather stupid definition and it's often used as a machistic way of expression. If you feel okay with your gender (body, mostly) I think you should work more toward getting to know if it's the definition of "man" that bugs you or it's just a genderqueer tendency.

EDIT:

The lack of real life experience before getting hormones isn't dangerous.. Two things- 1. Many effects of hormones are reversible to some degree if you discontinue them. 2. Unless you're really androgynous in appearance and can pull some level of passing without ANY medical intervention, real life experience pre-hormones can be extremely awkward because you're not going to pass (which is the point of it in the first place, to understand the implications of passing as your target gender). That is why there are doctors who will do informed consent on the early stages of transition.

I meant lacking the certificate of a therapist... it can be dangeorus both for the doctor and for the patient. For the patient mostly because it means he/she isn't properly followed and is taking hormones without a psychological course along it, which is the MAIN point.

[Emery.]

May I?

Actually, we're talking (atleast, I concluded) about people who get aroused (but are generically comfortable in a sexual situation SPECIFICALLY) while wearing other gender's dresses, or, more generically speaking, not having a reason to transition behind the "I want to have sex like this".

So what is a "valid" reason behind physically changing your gender? Is being an out-and-out tomboy or an effeminate man (or however those people identify) a reason to physically transition to the other sex? Of course not, but along this line of reasoning...

Honestly speaking, your situation sounds more like a problem with gender roles than something else, and I think you should de-stigmatize, in your mind, the picture someone else drew to you about "being a man". Being feminine, or less "rude" or even "creepy" does not make you less of a man, mostly 'cause "man" is a rather stupid definition and it's often used as a machistic way of expression. If you feel okay with your gender (body, mostly) I think you should work more toward getting to know if it's the definition of "man" that bugs you or it's just a genderqueer tendency.

So... how does gender non-conformity differ from genderqueer tendencies in your opinion? Why should we broaden the definition of "being a man" endlessly instead of acknowledging the differences and moving on with our lives?

[JAKQ7111]

Re: All of this trans-feminine kink stuff: I have a question to ask of y'all. While yes, I am genderfluid, and feel myself swinging along a pendulum between masculinity and femininity, where I swing is often contextually dependent. The biggest example I can think of is that I am many times more confident in romantic situations when presenting femininely. I am almost positive that I could not be comfortable dating as a man, despite having a sometimes-masculine identity in other situations. I'm thinking part of that is due to past trauma with romantic rejections/being called "creepy" or "stalker" (the former term at least being much more gendered these days, against men)one too many times by people of romantic interest. Now, dating is not the only situation in which I feel more feminine than masculine, but it is the biggest one where I feel I can pretty much exclusively feel comfortable in a feminine identity/presentation. This is why I don't think I can date straight women anymore, and could never really date gay men.

Aaaaaaaanyway, do you think that "trans women motivated by kink" are actually like me, or am I one of them, or is it something else that I am missing?

Actually, we're talking (atleast, I concluded) about people who get aroused (but are generically comfortable in a sexual situation SPECIFICALLY) while wearing other gender's dresses, or, more generically speaking, not having a reason to transition behind the "I want to have sex like this".

Honestly speaking, your situation sounds more like a problem with gender roles than something else, and I think you should de-stigmatize, in your mind, the picture someone else drew to you about "being a man". Being feminine, or less "rude" or even "creepy" does not make you less of a man, mostly 'cause "man" is a rather stupid definition and it's often used as a machistic way of expression. If you feel okay with your gender (body, mostly) I think you should work more toward getting to know if it's the definition of "man" that bugs you or it's just a genderqueer tendency.

That isn't what I meant. I meant that in romantic-type situations, because I am so incredibly awkward around new, attractive people, I have had several women avoid me or stop talking to me because they thought I was creepy. That left me with some...pretty serious mental scars that may or may not be PTSD, I'm not sure. I am aware that this word "creep" in this context is often directed at men by women, and for mostly good reason. Some people just can't take "no" for an answer, and that's not good, but being on the receiving end of that one too many times, especially when I was not always aware of what I was doing (or some folks say that some of these people were probably not so nice people in general anyway), has damaged me pretty badly, and even being in loving relationships has not made that anxiety go away.

Anyway, I got a bit tangential there, but that's my hangup with the word "creep" in a nutshell. As far as my gender in general goes, it is something that is very fluid independently of that particular trauma, and dating isn't the only time I like being/dressing/acting feminine. Sometimes, that's just what feels right, and I"m starting HRT soon to relieve some of my body dysphoria/to hopefully make my femme side more noticeable without me having to go through extensive effort to avoid being misgendered. However, in most situations, I can be masculine or feminine or something in between, and it won't be an issue. It's pretty much only dating and romance where I definitively feel much more confident in one presentation over another, and in that case, it is feminine.

[Niko.]

May I?

So... how does gender non-conformity differ from genderqueer tendencies in your opinion? Why should we broaden the definition of "being a man" endlessly instead of acknowledging the differences and moving on with our lives?

As far as my gender in general goes, it is something that is very fluid independently of that particular trauma, and dating isn't the only time I like being/dressing/acting feminine. Sometimes, that's just what feels right, and I"m starting HRT soon to relieve some of my body dysphoria/to hopefully make my femme side more noticeable without me having to go through extensive effort to avoid being misgendered. However, in most situations, I can be masculine or feminine or something in between, and it won't be an issue. It's pretty much only dating and romance where I definitively feel much more confident in one presentation over another, and in that case, it is feminine.

Well, this.

HRT should insert you into society and stop making you feeling awkard in most social situations (or, theoretically, it should be this, even if society then marginalize you because of transphobic reasons) and it should go along with:

So what is a "valid" reason behind physically changing your gender? Is being an out-and-out tomboy or an effeminate man (or however those people identify) a reason to physically transition to the other sex? Of course not, but along this line of reasoning...

Discovering what you actually want your life to be. It's not just a out-and-out tomboy, it should focus DEEPLY on how you want to be "PERCEIVED" by others. Dysphoria not only comes with feeling of unease/discomfort with the body (and that's, I think, the primary reason to begin HRT) but also with the perception of others VS your perception of yourself. That's what makes an "identity" exists in first place. Those are 2 sides of the dysphoria, the first is possible even on a desert island (as we discussed in another topic about dysphoria) and the second one is closely related to socialize with others.

Transitioning should be about both, but even one of these reasons is a good reason to have HRT, even though, if not done correctly and while enforcing a binary-decision, it can still leave a trans person unsatisfied because they're more varied on the gender spectrum.

P.S. broadening a definition, in this case, means: define BIOLOGIC differences between a man and a woman and then stop the definition right there. No one has to conform to any behaviour at all just because of gender, and that it can ben done, in society, with broadening the definition of a word, which can then standardize those behaviours uncommon before the broadening (sorry if i'm getting long-winded and confusing, it's a complex argument) and reduce the gap between sexes, thus avoiding "man-only" words (like creep) or "woman-only" words (like whore, chick, etcetc...) it's all part of a society routine: de-standardization -> single cases -> introduction of new cases -> re-standardization (think of it like pajamas: they were not always used, they were firstly scarcely used, then went public and are now common in society)

[Emery.]

P.S. (...)

Yeah yeah.

I don't understand this point of view. Don't try to convince me. believe me, I spent a fair amount of time reflecting on this, I simply don't agree and it doesn't hold.

Any reason to transition (or not) is valid, as long as it makes the person in question happier, in my opinion. Whatever floats their boat. I pretty much agree on the rest of what you've said.

Is "creep" a male only word? Maybe I hang out with wierdos, but I've heard it said about women. I've also heard some describe some men as whores.

[dissolved]

Finally got around to reading the article... pretty interesting.

My only criticism is that again people are conflating gender identity with biological sex, giving gender identity a biological reason for existing. I don't have a chromosomal disorder. Apart from a handful of genetic diseases (which frankly, are nothing to do with my gender or biological sex), I am genetically "perfect", and yet I am trans. I'm neurotypical; I've had plenty of MRI and CT scans etc to show that, unlike in that article, my brain doesn't respond differently than other "typical females" and I have no physiological differences. Yet I have the brain/body mismatch. So what's going on?

I know all my faculties are intact; there's nothing about transitioning that arouses me so I know it's nothing to do with a fetish; I'm not wanting to change as a coping mechanism because this has been something I've wanted to do since before I realised transition was A Thing You Can Do^TM.

So while some of the things the article mentions may be true for some transgender folk, it doesn't ring true for me as far as I know at this point.

Oh, and re: MtFs and fetishes, it definitely happens. See if you can find a tv programme online called "The Living Dolls" or something similar. It's about guys that can't/don't want to medically transition, and so wear these rubber suits (with female genitalia) while they're out and about. It was very interesting but also... I had no idea things like that happened

Re: valid reasons for transitioning. I've heard a lot of really weird reasons, and I do believe that many of these people who are transitioning will regret it later on in their lives and the medical professionals that allowed them to transition will bear the brunt of it. I know someone who is transitioning to male because they "don't enjoy sex as a woman so [they] want to try it as a guy instead". I don't agree that this is a valid - or rather sensible - reason to transition. It's not for me to decide, of course, and people can do whatever the fuck they want, but in ten, fifteen years when all these people are "de-transitioning" and someone gets wind that I myself am trans, I'm going to get ridiculed and grouped in with these morons who transitioned because it's the cool thing to do at the moment.

[butterflydreams]

Oh, and re: MtFs and fetishes, it definitely happens. See if you can find a tv programme online called "The Living Dolls" or something similar. It's about guys that can't/don't want to medically transition, and so wear these rubber suits (with female genitalia) while they're out and about. It was very interesting but also... I had no idea things like that happened

See, I don't even consider that kind of thing related to transgenderism at all. Don't ask me how I know about it, but "puppy play" is a thing too. Where people dress up like dogs with tails, masks, etc. Do they really want to be dogs? Who knows. I don't consider that related to being trans at all. Completely different.

Re: valid reasons for transitioning. I've heard a lot of really weird reasons, and I do believe that many of these people who are transitioning will regret it later on in their lives and the medical professionals that allowed them to transition will bear the brunt of it. I know someone who is transitioning to male because they "don't enjoy sex as a woman so [they] want to try it as a guy instead". I don't agree that this is a valid - or rather sensible - reason to transition. It's not for me to decide, of course, and people can do whatever the fuck they want, but in ten, fifteen years when all these people are "de-transitioning" and someone gets wind that I myself am trans, I'm going to get ridiculed and grouped in with these morons who transitioned because it's the cool thing to do at the moment.

I worry about this a lot as well. "Don't enjoy sex as a ____" is one thing. Feeling completely non sexual because of your body is something entirely different. That's certainly my experience. I just can't. In some ways, I hate that I finally figured all this out now, when being trans is a thing that's getting a lot more attention. It makes it a lot harder to justify to my mom who thinks I'm "jumping on the bandwagon". I say it all the time: I just want to transition, and get on with my life and be left alone. I want to love as the real me, I want to be loved as the real me, I want to live my life. That's it. My hope, with the people you describe, is that they will respect the situation they're getting themselves into. Because it might just be "want to try sex as a guy" for them, but (and I don't want to seem overly dramatic) it's a quality of life issue for me. The difference between living happily, smiling, being vibrant, and pointing my car at a bridge embankment and putting my foot down.

[dissolved]

I worry about this a lot as well. "Don't enjoy sex as a ____" is one thing. Feeling completely non sexual because of your body is something entirely different. That's certainly my experience. I just can't. In some ways, I hate that I finally figured all this out now, when being trans is a thing that's getting a lot more attention. It makes it a lot harder to justify to my mom who thinks I'm "jumping on the bandwagon". I say it all the time: I just want to transition, and get on with my life and be left alone. I want to love as the real me, I want to be loved as the real me, I want to live my life. That's it. My hope, with the people you describe, is that they will respect the situation they're getting themselves into. Because it might just be "want to try sex as a guy" for them, but (and I don't want to seem overly dramatic) it's a quality of life issue for me. The difference between living happily, smiling, being vibrant, and pointing my car at a bridge embankment and putting my foot down.

Exactly. People can transition for whatever reason they like, but they shouldn't expect everyone's experiences to be the same. If they want to transition because they think it's a good idea and maybe a bit of fun, fine, but for me it doesn't feel like a choice. It's transition or find a nice wall that looks like it'll squish up my car bonnet real good. There's no "I want to try this..." or "I don't want to wear [stereotypical birth sex piece of clothing] any more".

Slightly related... that also reminded me of some folks that I know who claim they don't experience dysphoria. I find this really interesting... because how do they know they're trans? I mean that as a legitimate question. I don't feel trapped in my body; I don't feel "male" (whatever that means). It's just that there's this mismatch. This chest isn't mine. My voice is too high. Where's my junk? Why don't I have facial hair? For those that feel no "wrongness", how do they know they're trans?

I saw a video recently of someone who identifies as FtM but has no dysphoria because their parents didn't impose a gender on them as they were growing up. They got to choose clothes, toys, names, pronouns etc etc so there's no dysphoria. Fair enough. But this makes it clear that are two types of dysphoria: physical and social. This person doesn't have the social side because they can, and always could, do whatever they wanted. But do they not feel odd in their own body? Apparently not. They have no desire to medically transition, which is fair enough. I know other people who don't want to or can't, but they still have that "what the fuck is this body" feeling that I thought was something that all trans people had in common. Apparently not...

[Emery.]

For those that feel no "wrongness", how do they know they're trans?

You mean like me? It was a long, meandring, complicated and draining thought process to come to this conclusion. I rather felt like ...

Just a whisper in my ghost... You can scroll to 6.00 or 10.00.or 17.00

[R_1]

Someone who identifies as FtM, but has no dysphoria (social or physical)... I don't get it. Yeah, I'm asking the same question as you, dissolved. How do they know if they're trans without something to indicate it? Do they just assume they act like the opposite gender/sex, and then identifies based on their perception of what they observe? Whisper, and ghost seem like a rather odd way of finding out, but I can see how is that theoretically possible.

[butterflydreams]

Exactly. People can transition for whatever reason they like, but they shouldn't expect everyone's experiences to be the same. If they want to transition because they think it's a good idea and maybe a bit of fun, fine, but for me it doesn't feel like a choice. It's transition or find a nice wall that looks like it'll squish up my car bonnet real good. There's no "I want to try this..." or "I don't want to wear [stereotypical birth sex piece of clothing] any more".

So I saw my oldest childhood friend this weekend and he confessed something to me he hadn't said before. He was telling me that I looked really good and seemed happy and vibrant (in contrast to how I used to be) and that he was very glad about that. Because apparently, over a year ago when I told him I was going to transition, he got extremely concerned because I live alone, I don't have many (any?) local friends, etc, etc. The point being, transition is incredibly difficult. You don't go through this because you're tired of wearing ____ piece of typically gendered clothing.

Slightly related... that also reminded me of some folks that I know who claim they don't experience dysphoria. I find this really interesting... because how do they know they're trans? I mean that as a legitimate question. I don't feel trapped in my body; I don't feel "male" (whatever that means). It's just that there's this mismatch. This chest isn't mine. My voice is too high. Where's my junk? Why don't I have facial hair? For those that feel no "wrongness", how do they know they're trans?

To take a stab at this myself, I denied having dysphoria for a long, long time. Even up until starting to transition, which I chose to do based on a series of long-held feelings of discomfort and a hunch. Maybe it's because I'm thick. Maybe it's because denying it was my only means of living a reasonable life. My suspicion is that many of those people who say they don't experience dysphoria are tied up in that denial. It's very powerful. I don't deny it anymore, because part of the transition/healing process is to see it and work to help it. But it's very much there now. When I see facial hair that hasn't been removed yet, my heart just sinks. I won't go into below-the-belt details, but despite what I believed, the dysphoria there hurts a lot too. I still have to deny it because there's less I can do about it right now.

I saw a video recently of someone who identifies as FtM but has no dysphoria because their parents didn't impose a gender on them as they were growing up. They got to choose clothes, toys, names, pronouns etc etc so there's no dysphoria. Fair enough. But this makes it clear that are two types of dysphoria: physical and social. This person doesn't have the social side because they can, and always could, do whatever they wanted. But do they not feel odd in their own body? Apparently not. They have no desire to medically transition, which is fair enough. I know other people who don't want to or can't, but they still have that "what the fuck is this body" feeling that I thought was something that all trans people had in common. Apparently not...

There are definitely different kinds of dysphoria, and because of things like denial and "just trying to survive" the end results can manifest in all kinds of different ways. We all have such individual lives and circumstances that the "what the fuck is this body" doesn't always result in the same behavior. And it isn't always easy to link to gender if you don't have that framework and self-awareness. To this day, I remember when I was very little, like 4-5, getting ready for church and feeling this horrible sickness just wash over me, because of my body. Because of how my parents had dressed me, because of what was in my pants, because of everything. That feeling popped up a lot in my young years. I didn't have a concept of "gender" in that way at that age, but I knew there was pain and I did whatever I could to get rid of it. Mostly it was shutting things down and tuning things out. It worked, but what was left was a shell of a person.