why don't crossdressers have a flag?

[AVEN #1 fan]

Crossdresser is valid as both a gender identity (how you see yourself) and a gender expression (how you behave).

As gender expression, a person can crossdress or get in drag and identify as whatever gender they feel like. Male crossdressers (in this case also referred as transvestites) who identify as a woman are Trans woman and female crossdressers (in this case also referred as transvestites) who identify as a man are Trans man. However, cisgender and non-binary crossdressers exist as well.

 

As a gender identity, one can identify as Crossdresser instead of trans or cis, bc it's not connected to being woman/man, it's a gender identity connected to femininity/masculinity without exclusively being a woman/man, it's like identifying with a "cultural costume".

 

Since crossdressers aren't the same as Transgender people, they should receive a flag for themselves just like androgynes (gender identity) and androgynous (gender expression) folks have their on.

 

Forgive me if I got any term wrong, crossdresser is a popular gender identity in my country and isn't the same thing as a binary Transgender.

 

 

Anyone identifies as crossdresser or crossdress? Anyone has any design ideas?

[ChillaKilla]

https://austindragfest.org/official-drag-queen-flag/

 

Trans women are NOT "Male transvestites who think they're women".

Trans men are NOT "Female transvestites who think they're men". 

I don't know if this is a language barrier but that is extremely wrong and insulting.

[AVEN #1 fan]

12 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

https://austindragfest.org/official-drag-queen-flag/

 

Trans women are NOT "Male transvestites who think they're women".

Trans men are NOT "Female transvestites who think they're men". 

I don't know if this is a language barrier but that is extremely wrong and insulting.

Indeed,  in Latin American cultures transvestite is a synonymous for crossdresser and so Trans people are referred as such. What's the difference BTW crossdress and transvestite? Ik people who use Trans woman, transvestite and crossdresser interchangeably.

 

Ain't this a drag exclusive flag?

[ChillaKilla]

Transvestite and/or cross dresser means a cis person who wears traditionally "opposite gender" clothes for fun or performance. They don't identify as another gender. They're doing nothing but playacting. In fact, the fact that people used to use them interchangeably prevented transgender people from getting rights because since trans people and cross dressers were considered the same, they were treated like their identities were just for fun and not serious conditions that needed medical treatment and social recognition.

[AVEN #1 fan]

14 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

Transvestite and/or cross dresser means a cis person who wears traditionally "opposite gender" clothes for fun or performance. They don't identify as another gender. They're doing nothing but playacting. In fact, the fact that people used to use them interchangeably prevented transgender people from getting rights because since trans people and cross dressers were considered the same, they were treated like their identities were just for fun and not serious conditions that needed medical treatment and social recognition.

Oh, well here in Latin America "Travesti" is seen as a gender identity other than binary Transgender and is how crossdressers/transvestites/drags are called in Brazil, they receive medical care like most Trans persons. Not all travestis identifies as cisman or ciswoman, they identify as travesti. Trans women and Trans men also refer to themselves as travestis if they like the term.

[ChillaKilla]

... You know tr*nny is a banned word on AVEN? It's against the ToS and putting it in your member title is like putting f*ggot.

[AVEN #1 fan]

33 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

... You know tr*nny is a banned word on AVEN? It's against the ToS and putting it in your member title is like putting f*ggot.

Depends on who uses and for what, it's like the n word for persons of color.

It's ok for Trans persons to call each other tr#nny just like lesbians can call themselves d#kes.

Gay was a slur in the past as well, now it's just by homo people to call themselves.

Cissy is not a slur, why can't tranny change? Tr#nny was an endearing term used by Trans folks to call Trans folks originally.

the word "we#boo" is against the ToS.

[Busrider]

Excuse me, why should "crossdresser" be a gender identity? And if it was one, when will we list bird-nerd, cook & soccer-fan as further genders? Crossdressing is fun, a hobby maybe a kink / fetish, but by politically correct definition it can be only done by people who don't identify themselves with the clothing inspiring gender.

[daveb]

I'm a crossdresser. In the US the term transvestite is frowned on because of a long history of pathologizing crossdressing through the use of that term. It is true that both basically mean the same thing in their roots/etymology. But the usage affects the meaning, too. Crossdressing is also different from dressing in drag for performance reasons. I would say drag queens/kings wear a costume. Whereas for crossdressers like me it's more a form of self-expression, and the clothes (and wigs, makeup, breast forms, etc.) are just as much our clothes as any clothes anyone else wears.

 

Of course, none of these categories are absolutes, and don't have to be mutually exclusive. There can be crossover and mix and match of various reasons for dressing various ways, in addition to the aspect of gender identity. Sometimes crossdressing can also be gender expression. In my case, for example, I'm not saying I am female, even when I crossdress, but I am expressing a feminine aspect of my gender identity. I know some people who wear the clothes of the "opposite" gender (for lack of a better phrase) do it because they do identify with that gender, whether only some of the time or all of the time, but may not want to transition full time for a variety of reasons.

 

Trying to not make this a long ramble, so excuse me  if I don't cover all the bases. Suffice it to say, as my mom likes to put it, it's all good. As for me, I don't care much about flags. (Although I enjoy Eddie Izzard's take on flags)

[Chardog]

19 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Depends on who uses and for what, it's like the n word for persons of color.

It's ok for Trans persons to call each other tr#nny just like lesbians can call themselves d#kes.

Gay was a slur in the past as well, now it's just by homo people to call themselves.

Cissy is not a slur, why can't tranny change? Tr#nny was an endearing term used by Trans folks to call Trans folks originally.

the word "we#boo" is against the ToS.

 

The "T" word is not a "term of endearment" in any way, shape or form! No self respecting trans person would ever use it toward themselves or anyone else.

 

I understand that the culture surrounding gender is different where you're from. You're culture is well known for being extremely transphobic, so the culture reflects a lack of respect- which you believe is a "correct" way of relating to trans people. It is not..

 

For the records transvestites/cross dressers are generally sexually fetishists. They are cis. They do not transition. They are not trans. If they are receiving "medical care" it is probably under the guise of correcting what is seen as deviant behavior. Drag is a performance art. People who do drag are also cis.

 

When you are told that what you are saying is offensive here, you need to STOP IMMEDIATELY and not try to justify your behavior because it is okay in your known transphobic culture. It is NOT OKAY here or in other venues that are safe spaces for trans people. Your insistence on continuing to state your case as being "right" is extremely disrespectful of the rest of us here. 

[AVEN #1 fan]

16 minutes ago, Busrider said:

Excuse me, why should "crossdresser" be a gender identity? And if it was one, when will we list bird-nerd, cook & soccer-fan as further genders? Crossdressing is fun, a hobby maybe a kink / fetish, but by politically correct definition it can be only done by people who don't identify themselves with the clothing inspiring gender.

Bc it's a culture based identity, it's considered a gender identity in Latin America, it's identifying with manliness/womanliness without being born a woman/man respectively and without identifying with other genders.

Pls,  don't make fun of nb identities, it's offensive.

[AVEN #1 fan]

21 minutes ago, Chardog said:

 

The "T" word is not a "term of endearment" in any way, shape or form! No self respecting trans person would ever use it toward themselves or anyone else.

 

I understand that the culture surrounding gender is different where you're from. You're culture is well known for being extremely transphobic, so the culture reflects a lack of respect- which you believe is a "correct" way of relating to trans people. It is not..

 

For the records transvestites/cross dressers are generally sexually fetishists. They are cis. They do not transition. They are not trans. If they are receiving "medical care" it is probably under the guise of correcting what is seen as deviant behavior. Drag is a performance art. People who do drag are also cis.

 

When you are told that what you are saying is offensive here, you need to STOP IMMEDIATELY and not try to justify your behavior because it is okay in your known transphobic culture. It is NOT OKAY here or in other venues that are safe spaces for trans people. Your insistence on continuing to state your case as being "right" is extremely disrespectful of the rest of us here. 

Oh well, I'm sorry but in my culture they're perceived as a "nb gender identity" and as a gender expression for Transgender and cisgender  people, not all of them are fetishists and yeah they receive the same assistance as other Transgenders, and may desire a full transition.

 

 

I've to admit you're right, I was raised in a highly transphobic culture, Latin American countries murder a lot of Trans persons indeed, and I'm sorry but because this difference BTW cultures we should stop debating.

[daveb]

I respect what everyone is saying here, but I disagree with some of the comments. Crossdressing isn't necessarily done just for fun or as a fetish by cis-gendered people. For some it's their way of expressing a gender identity, which may be a transgender identity (although I can see the argument that in that case it's not crossdressing), or it may be a a gender identity that is neither cis nor trans or both or neither. I think it's a bit dismissive to basically say it's just for fun (or to say that most crossdressers do it for sexual gratification).

There do seem to be some language and cultural differences we should take into account as well.

 

That said, I wouldn't say crossdresser is a gender identity in itself. There are too many different reasons why people crossdress, including some of the various ones mentioned by various posters here, but they don't all apply to everyone who crossdresses.

[Sally]

In relation to crossdressing and just about everything else, actually, I feel that it's condescending/patronizing for person A to speculate on why person B is doing something.  It's person A's right to determine why they're doing something.  If they don't do that publicly, leave it alone.  

[ChillaKilla]

10 hours ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

Depends on who uses and for what, it's like the n word for persons of color.

It's ok for Trans persons to call each other tr#nny just like lesbians can call themselves d#kes.

Gay was a slur in the past as well, now it's just by homo people to call themselves.

Cissy is not a slur, why can't tranny change? Tr#nny was an endearing term used by Trans folks to call Trans folks originally.

the word "we#boo" is against the ToS.

   Hide contents

Banned words on AVEN:

r*tard / r*tarded, c*nt, n*gger, ch*nk, f*g, f*ggot, h*rmaphrodite, j*p, n*glet,

tr*nny, tr*p, w*tback

[/spoiler

Quoted from the ToS thread.

[ChillaKilla]

Just because YOU think it's okay to call another trans person doesn't mean it is. And the vast majority of people on here say it is NOT OKAY.

[Guest]

I'd like to ask everyone to remain CIVIL when discussing  this topic.Please refrain from ANY personal attacks.I'd like to advice everyone in the strongest terms to either use the ignore button should a member have said or done something you disagree with or to report said members post so the Admod Team can deal with it.Also refrain from using transphobic terms while discussing this subject. Please try to be respectful towards eachother when discussing certain terms with your fellow members of this forum.

 

Failure to adhere will result in me locking this thread.

 

Thank you,

 

Jayce, temporary Gender Discussion moderator.

[AVEN #1 fan]

20 minutes ago, The Wobb said:

Maybe they don't have a flag, because they're not even real.

 

Bow to your God, The Wobb 

 

"If it aint silver, it aint steel. and if it aint steel, it aint real. No gays"

- Hawk Willian 

Sureeee,   a lot of orientations doesn't have a flag yet, it doesn't make them any less valid.

[AVEN #1 fan]

12 hours ago, daveb said:

I respect what everyone is saying here, but I disagree with some of the comments. Crossdressing isn't necessarily done just for fun or as a fetish by cis-gendered people. For some it's their way of expressing a gender identity, which may be a transgender identity (although I can see the argument that in that case it's not crossdressing), or it may be a a gender identity that is neither cis nor trans or both or neither. I think it's a bit dismissive to basically say it's just for fun (or to say that most crossdressers do it for sexual gratification).

There do seem to be some language and cultural differences we should take into account as well.

 

That said, I wouldn't say crossdresser is a gender identity in itself. There are too many different reasons why people crossdress, including some of the various ones mentioned by various posters here, but they don't all apply to everyone who crossdresses.

In my culture, crossdressing works like a gender identity just like androgyne. Crossdressers refer to themselves as Crossdressers for a gender identity when they don't believe any other gender identity fits them, like a lot of nb persons specially the ones who identify as maverique or "third gender", apart from that, they can identify as cisgender ,  Transgender or nb.

It's not weird for one who crossdress to not identify as man or woman or any nb gender, the LGBT+ community validated away more "complicated" gender identities in the past.

[dissolved]

Wait wait wait....

 

Not everyone who crossdresses identifies as something other than what they were assigned, so why does it make sense to have a flag? If for example they were trans but didn't want to/couldn't transition, but chose to crossdress to ease their dysphoria or whatever, why would they need to use something other than the bog standard trans flag?

 

I dunno if that makes sense.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Yeah, if crossdressers are identifying as trans/nb/whatever then why don't they just use their flag? Crossdressing (we call it drag queen/king) here just means someone dressing up for entertainment.

[AVEN #1 fan]

53 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Yeah, if crossdressers are identifying as trans/nb/whatever then why don't they just use their flag? Crossdressing (we call it drag queen/king) here just means someone dressing up for entertainment.

The point is not all of them do it for entertainment, only cis crossdressers does such, crossdressers who identify their gender as crossdresser live full-time and may desire to transition, they just don't view themselves as Trans men/women/nb.

Androgyne/androgynous pride flag exist for people who identify as Androgyne and to who has an androgynous gender expression.

A crossdresser one for those who idnetify as such or express their gender as such would make sense.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

So what's the difference between crossdresser and trans where you are? They're completely different things here and calling a trans person a crossdresser would be incredibly offensive.

[AVEN #1 fan]

16 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

So what's the difference between crossdresser and trans where you are? They're completely different things here and calling a trans person a crossdresser would be incredibly offensive.

The difference is very small just like the difference btw a Cis butch lesbian and a hetero Trans man. So it's hard for people from outside these communities to understand.

The difference is just how they feel, let's use AFAB people as example, an AFAB crossdresser identifies with masculinity however they don't desire to be a "real man", but they live crossdressed while a Trans man identifies with masculinity and being a man, they want to be  "real men". It's not that hard to explain when we take demigenders into consideration.

the crossdressers that aren't full time are cisgender and usually are fetishist or do it for fun.

Crossdressers doesn't like to be called transexuals either.

 

[AVEN #1 fan]

4 hours ago, dissolved said:

Wait wait wait....

 

Not everyone who crossdresses identifies as something other than what they were assigned, so why does it make sense to have a flag? If for example they were trans but didn't want to/couldn't transition, but chose to crossdress to ease their dysphoria or whatever, why would they need to use something other than the bog standard trans flag?

 

I dunno if that makes sense.

If crossdressers actually had a flag, they wouldn't drive Trans folk angry by appropriating their flag and creating misunderstandings.

If you identify as Trans, you still Trans no matter if you can't transition.

Even less common genders have pride flags.

[Janus the Fox]

Cross-dressing or transvestitism isn't neceserly a gender thing, a lot we could assume are non-lgbt are cross-dressers/transvestites and do so for any personal reasons.

 

Depending on where you get info on such a topic, there's sub topics an transvestism such as the like of Fetishistic Transvestism, Transvestic Disorder under (DSM-5) or be such of a range of delusions under any number psychotic conditions, care must be given onto the subject, give that I can be a completely normal thing within certain cultures.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism

 

Take wiki or any source with a pinch of salt generally.

[ChillaKilla]

51 minutes ago, AVEN #1 fan said:

If crossdressers actually had a flag, they wouldn't drive Trans folk angry by appropriating their flag and creating misunderstandings.

If you identify as Trans, you still Trans no matter if you can't transition.

Even less common genders have pride flags.

I don't see crossdressers appropriating trans flags. Additionally, it's cis people confusing the two, not crossdressers' fault.

[AVEN #1 fan]

30 minutes ago, ChillaKilla said:

I don't see crossdressers appropriating trans flags. Additionally, it's cis people confusing the two, not crossdressers' fault.

They do need a flag for them anyway, back to the topic, anyone has any design ideas?

[daveb]

To the best of my knowledge and understanding crossdressing and drag queens/kings are 2 different things. And then there are female impersonators (and possibly male impersonators?). The differences are both in the way they dress and present themselves and in how they identify and in the reasons and motivations for why they do these things.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't do it to entertain anyone. I don't do it just for fun (even though I do it for fun sometimes). It goes deeper than that. I don't do it for fetish reasons (not that there's anything wrong with that and it shouldn't be pathologized). I do it because sometimes I like to feel "pretty". I do it because it expresses some part of me that has absorbed and identifies with societal definitions of the feminine. In other words, there is some gender expression in it for me. And I do it because I like to.

 

I have no ideas for flag designs, but I have no need or desire for flags myself. Good luck to you @AVEN #1 fan in your flag quest!

[AVEN #1 fan]

22 minutes ago, daveb said:

To the best of my knowledge and understanding crossdressing and drag queens/kings are 2 different things. And then there are female impersonators (and possibly male impersonators?). The differences are both in the way they dress and present themselves and in how they identify and in the reasons and motivations for why they do these things.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't do it to entertain anyone. I don't do it just for fun (even though I do it for fun sometimes). It goes deeper than that. I don't do it for fetish reasons (not that there's anything wrong with that and it shouldn't be pathologized). I do it because sometimes I like to feel "pretty". I do it because it expresses some part of me that has absorbed and identifies with societal definitions of the feminine. In other words, there is some gender expression in it for me. And I do it because I like to.

 

I have no ideas for flag designs, but I have no need or desire for flags myself. Good luck to you @AVEN #1 fan in your flag quest!

I always thought crossdresser,  drag king/queen and transvestite were under the same umbrella.  anyway, in my culture they're perceived as gender expressions unless one identifies with crossdresser (travesti), there's even a non-binary gender symbol for them bc it's it's a valid nb identity:

http://img06.deviantart.net/7135/i/2014/276/4/0/gender_symbols_by_caaloba-d81ds6u.png

It's in the under right corner as "travesti n-b" and this gender chart isn't very unpopular.

Drags have a flag already, as ChillaKilla shew me on their first post.

Thx you though.

I don't see why crossdressing people must be pathologized, they're just wearing costumes, expressing their identities, it's not like they're sociopaths or perverts.