The End of the United Kingdom?

[Tanwen]

!8th September Scotland will be going to the polls to determine whether the United Kingdom will continue. Scotland could break away, leaving England, N Ireland and Wales. The flag will change as the Scottish Saltire may no longer be part of it.

No-one is sure what their currency will be; the English Govt have stated that they will not be allowed to keep the £, they will not be part of the EU so how will it affect their trade?

[Kelly]

I am not sure. Perhaps the Bank of Scotland will keep issuing banknotes?

It will be very interesting to see how this goes. The final epside of BBC's The Celts anticipates the breakup of Great Britain with not just Scotland leaving but Wales, The Isle of Man, etc., leaving (an "avalanche" was used to describe the breakup). They even showed the Queen speaking in Wales of these new times of independance.

[Chewy]

That's interesting, my sister was born in Scotland. She and my parents have UK passports. I wonder how this will impact them.

[LaMaestra]

I hate the expression 'United Kingdom' and never use it unless I have to like now. It is a divided land.

[Lynxe]

At the moment, I feel like the swing is towards a no vote anyway.

[Marshmallow Tree]

60% of our trades come from the EU. I suspect it won't be good, but I don't think those in favour of breaking away care much about it anyway.

[Sebastian Grace]

I personally hope that Scotland stays. It would be beneficial for both regions if they did, not least becuase if Scotland left, England, Wales, and Northern Ireland would end up with a conservative (and maybe even further right) government because Scotland is traditionally a leftward-leaning stronghold. There are a whole bunch of other issues with it, my main interests being the funding of social programs, international relations, and the economy, so I really hope the vote does not result in the favour of independence. However, if it does, then that's democracy, and I respect the democratic process.

[Kanenas]

I love England and it's people, but I could laugh in anybody's face who has a "British" identity. Like LaMaestra said, it is very divided land. After having met many English people, also Irishmen from both the North and the Republic, I understand the verbal petty wars. England is better than the rest of the UK, but some parts of England are better than others. When in doubt, the UK is always better than Europe. If someone calls "British" people Europeans, they're in trouble. If someone says "British" people aren't Europeans, they're in trouble again. I have no incredibly strong feelings about Scottish independence, but I personally think it's time. At the end of the day I would be very glad if the people of Scotland make the decision which benefits them the most.

On a related note, the independence of Catalonia (also voted for this September!) and of Sicily are what I truly wish to see in my lifetime. I think it's much more interesting to see what will happen in Spain than in the UK. If Catalonia finally (and hopefully) gains it's independence, we will have to see what will happen with the països catalans and how strong the internal struggles with, say the Valenican blavas, are truly going to be. And, concerning leftover Spain, the Basque might follow. And then the Asturians. And then the Andalusians... Yada, yada, until only Madrid is left? ;)

[SorryNotSorry]

Uhh, it would be kind of cool if Scotland revived its own indigenous make of car...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrol_Johnston

[Marshmallow Tree]

I love England and it's people, but I could laugh in anybody's face who has a "British" identity. Like LaMaestra said, it is very divided land. After having met many English people, also Irishmen from both the North and the Republic, I understand the verbal petty wars. England is better than the rest of the UK, but some parts of England are better than others. When in doubt, the UK is always better than Europe. If someone calls "British" people Europeans, they're in trouble. If someone says "British" people aren't Europeans, they're in trouble again. I have no incredibly strong feelings about Scottish independence, but I personally think it's time. At the end of the day I would be very glad if the people of Scotland make the decision which benefits them the most.

On a related note, the independence of Catalonia (also voted for this September!) and of Sicily are what I truly wish to see in my lifetime. I think it's much more interesting to see what will happen in Spain than in the UK. If Catalonia finally (and hopefully) gains it's independence, we will have to see what will happen with the països catalans and how strong the internal struggles with, say the Valenican blavas, are truly going to be. And, concerning leftover Spain, the Basque might follow. And then the Asturians. And then the Andalusians... Yada, yada, until only Madrid is left? ;)

I have no idea where you've gotten your views. I identify as British and I've never met anyone in my entire life with those views. Meeting a few people does not generalise the views of the people as a whole. Also, Britain is a part of Europe. I would think that's simple enough to understand. You seem bitter in some way or another. Whatever the case, I'm not gonna delve into it because I see no point.

Scotland partly wants to stay because of the healthcare. I have a feeling the people that want to seperate only wish to because of their pride. We shall see though.

[Hobbes!]

Britain has the same kind of diversity as the United States has. It's a melting pot with lumps in, and you'll find that if you actually live here most people are just fine saying that they are British. In my experience even most Scots and Welsh are happy with the idea of being British and part of the UK. The biggest lump is of course Ireland (Between silly riots over flags and solemn speeches about putting the past behind us who the hell knows what the majority opinion is there)

It's been very interesting for me as English to watch this referendum (So far) play out. I'm actually surprised at how sober the debate has been. Apart from some silly vague patriotism around Burn's Day and the anniversary of Bannockburn, the debate has been built around the idea that Scotland will/won't be practically better off as an independent country. To my mind, Alex Salmond has simply ignored any arguments against independence that are inconvenient (His insistence that the Scot currency will be GBP, for example, despite the fact that it's not his decision to make), and it's admirable that he's managed to get away with it.

Do I think Scotland will be better off independent? No, not really. The whole idea is predicated on oil revenues fuelling the economy, which is in itself an educated guess. I certainly think that Scots will soon find that there all kinds of services that they get for free now - subsidised by the rest of the UK - which will disappear once they have to pay for them themselves.

The most remarkable thing about this has gone unnoticed, weirdly enough. If the result is YES, and Scotland becomes independent, I think it'll be the first time EVER that a country has gained independence democratically through sober debate. In other words, sensibly. And I think it says a lot for both Scotland and the rest of the UK that this is possible

[Kanenas]

I have no idea where you've gotten your views. I identify as British and I've never met anyone in my entire life with those views. Meeting a few people does not generalise the views of the people as a whole. Also, Britain is a part of Europe. I would think that's simple enough to understand. You seem bitter in some way or another. Whatever the case, I'm not gonna delve into it because I see no point.

Scotland partly wants to stay because of the healthcare. I have a feeling the people that want to seperate only wish to because of their pride. We shall see though.

Chill your beans. Those are far from being my views and I really don't see why you would resort to calling me bitter. I was quoting things a select few residents of the UK my age (20s, not 60+, surprisingly) told me. Their thoughts on their neighbors, British identity, pending independence, borders, currency, continental Europe, etc.. It all came across as so conservative and limited that I was shocked. Especially after meeting very liberal and humorous people from those countries for years on end. So I asked my best friend (English) and she explained the petty revenge mentality, all the bantering and teasing to me and we both had a good laugh. I know them from the Balkans all too well, trust me.

Whenever I refer to the UK as Europe, I am told to fuck off by multiple English people. And actually, just a week ago, an Irish woman also told me that the UK is the UK and not Europe. It's a mentality and mentalities differ from person to person. Not a matter of geographics. For example, Cyprus is in Asia, but counted as Europe. Imagine people saying "the Balkans are not Europe! Maybe they are in Europe, but we're not Europeans, were Balkanese!". Or the Baltics doing that. Or the Scandinavians. Or some creepy neo-Soviet stunt. Etc, etc. Might be silly to either or both of us, but doesn't change the fact that some people are seriously insulted by being referred to as (not) European.

So long story short, I thought I was actually being decent by not being the asshole to say "You're not even real Europeans!" like so many people from continental Europe like to say to UK folks.

[Hobbes!]

The main reason people here get so annoyed about being referred to as European is down to the tendency of Americans to refer to Europe as if it's all one country. It is an overreaction since the UK is part of the continent of Europe. There is also a political dimension to it for some people - there's a perception that the EU is an undemocratic body of foreigners meddling in British affairs, and in that context the EU is often referred to as "Europe"

Either way, it's a silly overreaction

[Kanenas]

While I wholeheartedly agree with what you said, I believe you just committed the same offense. You referred to US-Americans as "Americans", which is synechdoche ;)

[Hobbes!]

In my defence, the US is part of the Americas. And there are two of those ;) Haha, in all honesty, yes, "US Americans" would have been more accurate. "Some US Americans" would have been more accurate, though I think that was implied in the context of my comment

[Hooded_Crow]

I don't think people who want Scotland's independance want it solely because of a pride thing. I personally do root for them as a separate country, both for political and cultural reasons. It indeed does not bode well for left-winged UK if Scotland leaves, but it bodes well for left-wing Scotland. That's a whole group of people who basically never get the government they want.

Plus I've lived in Scotland for two years and I've been in England quite a lot, and they're just not the same place. They don't have the same culture, the same people, the same vibe. I love them both, mind, and I wish they could be friendly neighbours without anyone being petty about the separation.

Also, the arguments I've heard from people against independance are mostly negative and threats. Stuff like - paraphrasing here - 'you can't make it without us', which I don't think is true at all, based on what - granted, relatively little - I've read about Scottish economy. People referring to it as a 'divorce'. Let's not forget this was a forced marriage in the first place. Playing on the heart-strings is a bit ridiculous. So is stuff like 'I hope they get independance because then they'll come crawling back to us.' (yes, I've read that somewhere).

Where did you read or hear that Scotland wouldn't be part of the European Union? Genuinely interested as I'd been led to believe they would stay in the Union. Hmm, maybe I need to read more stuff, this is quite interesting.

That being said, I'm biased because I'm French Canadian - read Québecoise - and I've seen them struggle for independance since childhood. I believe culture, language, political views are important things to be taken into account when discussing a country's identity.

:) Whatever they decide on the day, of course, I'll be happy to accept. It might even not be any of my business. XD

I just hope that fear doesn't come into the decision too much.

[Hobbes!]

Let's not forget this was a forced marriage in the first place.

Although, unlike Wales and Ireland, not down to and English invasion but a failed attempt at imperialism. I actually have no special stake in this at all, but I'm still sceptical about the logic of it. If I was Scottish I think I would be on the side of "No". I'd get to vote in the general election and still have a devolved parliament - despite the problem with the damn London-centric political establishment that's still a better deal than you'd get if you lived in Manchester, or worse still, Birmingham

[Rare Aztec Whstling Chickn]

I wonder if Scotland going independant, and the Union Jack is changed, if it will affect the countries outside of the UK that have the Jack as part of the flag. 'Tis a wonder

[5_♦♣]

Where did you read or hear that Scotland wouldn't be part of the European Union? Genuinely interested as I'd been led to believe they would stay in the Union. Hmm, maybe I need to read more stuff, this is quite interesting.

If Scotland were to separate from the UK, they would need to be approved by EU countries to become a member.

[Xavy]

I don't think Scotland will vote to leave the U.K.

[Quintus Crinis]

What's really got me about the whole Scottish independence debate is how little Salmond etc. actually want to change.

The SNP (under current policy) seems to want to retain everything (including the money Wesminster gives them to cover things not yet paid out of Holyrood's purse) but somehow claim that independence is the way to get this. At the very least Scotland would have to change its currency and relationship with the EU.

[canudigit]

I'm Scottish and will be voting Yes. We certainly do have the money to go it alone thanks, I refer you to the McCrone report buried by the UK government in the 1970s which said that, if independent, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest countries in the world on a par with Switzerland. That oil is still there and will be so for another 50 years at least, while also have a huge chunk of renewal energy resources with all that wind and water. Then there's the huge whisky (which has a market worth billions in China and Japan) and fish industries, not to mention we've been a net contributor fiscally over the last few years, disregarding the stuff you read in the Daily Mail and spouted by someone in this thread that we're reliant on subsidies. If that were the case, why are the Tories so eager to keep us given that if we leave they'll probably get a free run on government?

This is the most important election in my life and the chance to deliver a much fairer and more progressive society than the reactionary, ruling class United Kingdom. I hope to god we take it.

[Hobbes!]

I'm Scottish and will be voting Yes. We certainly do have the money to go it alone thanks, I refer you to the McCrone report buried by the UK government in the 1970s which said that, if independent, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest countries in the world on a par with Switzerland. That oil is still there and will be so for another 50 years at least, while also have a huge chunk of renewal energy resources with all that wind and water. Then there's the huge whisky (which has a market worth billions in China and Japan) and fish industries, not to mention we've been a net contributor fiscally over the last few years, disregarding the stuff you read in the Daily Mail and spouted by someone in this thread that we're reliant on subsidies. If that were the case, why are the Tories so eager to keep us given that if we leave they'll probably get a free run on government?

This is the most important election in my life and the chance to deliver a much fairer and more progressive society than the reactionary, ruling class United Kingdom. I hope to god we take it.

I think you're overestimating the difference between the Scottish and Westminster-based political establishments. It's possible that Scotland could become self-sufficient and get on very well economically - but far from certain. Even the best economists can only make educated guesses as to what the Scottish economy might look like ten years down the line, let alone a generation. If the past few years have taught us anything, it's that money is far from predictable.

Oh, and it's not just a Tory-led movement in the "No" campaign.

[Asterion Orestes]

In my defence, the US is part of the Americas. And there are two of those ;) Haha, in all honesty, yes, "US Americans" would have been more accurate. "Some US Americans" would have been more accurate, though I think that was implied in the context of my comment

Frank Wright proposed the term "Usonian" to refer to the USA, & I tend to favor this. If the UK survives, the equivalent adjective could be "Ukanian,"

[canudigit]

I'm Scottish and will be voting Yes. We certainly do have the money to go it alone thanks, I refer you to the McCrone report buried by the UK government in the 1970s which said that, if independent, Scotland would be one of the wealthiest countries in the world on a par with Switzerland. That oil is still there and will be so for another 50 years at least, while also have a huge chunk of renewal energy resources with all that wind and water. Then there's the huge whisky (which has a market worth billions in China and Japan) and fish industries, not to mention we've been a net contributor fiscally over the last few years, disregarding the stuff you read in the Daily Mail and spouted by someone in this thread that we're reliant on subsidies. If that were the case, why are the Tories so eager to keep us given that if we leave they'll probably get a free run on government?

This is the most important election in my life and the chance to deliver a much fairer and more progressive society than the reactionary, ruling class United Kingdom. I hope to god we take it.

I think you're overestimating the difference between the Scottish and Westminster-based political establishments. It's possible that Scotland could become self-sufficient and get on very well economically - but far from certain. Even the best economists can only make educated guesses as to what the Scottish economy might look like ten years down the line, let alone a generation. If the past few years have taught us anything, it's that money is far from predictable.

Oh, and it's not just a Tory-led movement in the "No" campaign.

I'm not overestimating the difference in electorates. One is centre right and entertaining parties like UKIP while the other is centre left and has entertained socialist parties before in the Scottish Parliament. If independence is achieved it's fairly obvious which political direction each will go.

No, but that wasn't my point. Why are Cameron and co so desperate to keep us if we actively undermine the prospects of a Conservative UK government. The answer is that the UK is overly reliant on a morally bankrupt financial services sector, selling arms to human rights abusing regimes and our oil for its revenue.

And anyway, Labour in Scotland are finished after this. They've finally started to lose the working class vote as people see them for the desperate careerists and tory lite policymakers they are.

[Hobbes!]

I'm not referring to the electorate, I'm referring to the politicians themselves. I've no doubt that on some issues Scotland is likely to become fairer than the rest of Britain. As I recall - correct me if I'm wrong on this - the idea of gay marriages is generally better received in Scotland. Despite this, politics is politics, and you don't make your way up in the ranks of a major party by sticking to your principles. I'll be interested to see what effect independence has on the socialist side of Scottish politics

I'm not disagreeing with a lot of what you say, or trying to convince you otherwise, just to be clear. All I'm saying is that even short term predictions, whether about Scottish politics or the economy, are educated guesses at best. How you vote is your business, and makes no difference to me. Yes or No, the West Midlands will still continue to be roundly ignored until the next terrorist threat rolls round

[Quintus Crinis]

In my defence, the US is part of the Americas. And there are two of those ;) Haha, in all honesty, yes, "US Americans" would have been more accurate. "Some US Americans" would have been more accurate, though I think that was implied in the context of my comment

Frank Wright proposed the term "Usonian" to refer to the USA, & I tend to favor this. If the UK survives, the equivalent adjective could be "Ukanian,"

Only problem with using "Ukanian" would be the ongoing disputes in Northern Ireland - having the distinction of British, Northern Irish and Irish allows separatists to consider themselves Irish Northern Irish, while allowing unionists to consider themselves British Northern Irish.

This ability to let people there associate with whichever country they want has helped to keep the peace and so changing this set-up could be problematic.

[LaMaestra]

I actually have dual Irish/British nationality but any loyalty I have is to Ireland.

[Tanwen]

Not all of the oil fields will be in Scottish territorial waters.

International convention is that a border continues at the same angle as it was when leaving land and NOT at right angles to the land mass.

[Quintus Crinis]

Not all of the oil fields will be in Scottish territorial waters.

International convention is that a border continues at the same angle as it was when leaving land and NOT at right angles to the land mass.

that map makes very bad reading for the SNP - actually ends with Scotland's present income from oil/gas being much less than they're claiming. Especially bad if you consider these reserves aren't going to last forever.