Why We are Here

[Sally]

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things.

...Because it's not like breaking up is an option. A partner not wanting to compromise is not a form of abuse, it's a boundary which they're most comfortable with and the objections of the other does not change that, that just means they're incompatible if neither partner can or wants to budge. It's no an act of vindictiveness or abuse, and if it is then wouldn't you say that's a relationship worth ending? Making demands is just rattling the cage and making both of you more uncomfortable and if it reaches that point then it's safe to say it's the beginning of the end and you should split before shit completely hits the fan because it's a big, screaming neon sign with bold letters saying 'This just won't work!'.

That is one possibility. And I agree, people can have boundaries that make them incompatible, and that by itself is not abuse. When I refer to harmful situations, I'm not just talking about someone having a boundary, I'm talking about actual mistreatment.

However, there are numerous threads on here where people were able to reach a compromise that ended up making their relationships better -- but those compromises were only reached when one person was able to say "I've hit a wall. I can't deal with it anymore. I need something to change or I can't stay in this relationship," and the other person was only able to compromise when they realized that this was serious -- their partner would actually leave over the way they had been treated.

Relationships aren't a battle, they're a perpetual compromise. Either that means mutual sacrifice or coming to some middle ground. I'd certainly hope mixed sexuals aren't coming here for permission to seek revenge. That's... that's the worst thing imaginable.

I don't think the issue is revenge. I don't think anyone wants permission to seek revenge. It's more trying to find a way to get through to the other person and have them at least listen to you.

But what you seem to be saying, in various threads, is that you think the other person should not only listen but do something.

Not wanting to have sex is not "mistreatment". It's simply not wanting to have sex.

Look at it this way, if you can: an asexual could just as easily charge that their partner expecting sex is "mistreatment". Would that be logical?

The person wanting/expecting sex is not the more important person in the relationship. They should be equal. If they want conflicting things (i.e., sexual wants sex, asexuals wants no sex), then there's really no compromise. They are equal but different in a very important way.

[Lady Girl]

Blackrose, I am asking you to describe your own relationship, your life, your feelings and emotions about that relationship (past or present), and about your life in general. Just as we all do. I don't really remember anyone else coming onto this forum (sexuals/asexuals) without doing so. But all you have shared is your need to have a lot of sex. That isn't sharing. The other thing you have done is lecture us and make pronouncements about what people should and should not do. That isn't sharing.

So let's hear about your life. No weaseling away, no demands for people to stop being hostile. Share.

I also wish you would share a little bit about your relationship experience BlackRose.

I don't believe that it is appropriate to respond to every hurting sexual person posting in this forum as if they are being mistreated. I also don't think threats to leave are the way to get sex...that just seems really manipulative to me and ultimately would hurt both people, not help. If the asexual partner agrees out of fear, what good is that? It just seems like a losing proposition. I base these thoughts on what I've gone through with my husband as I have previously mentioned.

[BlackRose]

But what you seem to be saying, in various threads, is that you think the other person should not only listen but do something.

Not wanting to have sex is not "mistreatment". It's simply not wanting to have sex.

Look at it this way, if you can: an asexual could just as easily charge that their partner expecting sex is "mistreatment". Would that be logical?

The person wanting/expecting sex is not the more important person in the relationship. They should be equal. If they want conflicting things (i.e., sexual wants sex, asexuals wants no sex), then there's really no compromise. They are equal but different in a very important way.

I agree completely with the above, which is exactly why I wrote

people can have boundaries that make them incompatible, and that by itself is not abuse. When I refer to harmful situations, I'm not just talking about someone having a boundary, I'm talking about actual mistreatment.

If a partner says "I'm not interested in any sexual activity or physical contact, or any compromise. I'm sorry, and I know you're hurting, but I just can't do it, and if it means the relationship will end, I understand" ... that's perfectly acceptable and legitimate. That's all anyone needs to do. Everyone has the right to set boundaries.

Refusing to discuss it, blaming and criticizing your partner, emotional abuse, stalling and making excuses, making promises and breaking them, on the other hand... while that may be understandable due to someone not understanding asexuality, I don't think that is acceptable behavior in a relationship.

And THAT is what I'm criticizing, not sexual boundaries.

I also wish you would share a little bit about your relationship experience BlackRose.

I don't believe that it is appropriate to respond to every hurting sexual person posting in this forum as if they are being mistreated. I also don't think threats to leave are the way to get sex...that just seems really manipulative to me and ultimately would hurt both people, not help. If the asexual partner agrees out of fear, what good is that? It just seems like a losing proposition. I base these thoughts on what I've gone through with my husband as I have previously mentioned.

You are right, I should have more sympathy for both partners in an obviously painful situation. Mistreatment can go both ways, and sometimes there is no mistreatment.

It does happen that a sexual partner, after years of inertia, finally says "I'm sorry but I just can't handle this anymore," and the asexual partner takes this to heart, and genuinely wants to save the relationship, and agrees to work on it, not out of fear, but out of caring about the relationship and finally understanding the situation.

I wrote a post that talks a little about where I'm coming from: http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/96613-a-little-about-me/

[Guest]

You have suggested to several sexuals that their partners are either abusing them, or simply don't care about them, when very little information was given and few things could logically come to that conclusion. I can understand why it's offending some people, because honestly, declaring abuse is pretty harsh, especially when we only hear ONE side and we don't even have a clear idea from that side half the time. Declaring someone as heartless and/or uncaring is also pretty harsh.

By "not being willing to discuss it" the person could be saying "I don't like sex, I don't want to have it anymore. I am sorry, but what else can I say?" and the sexual partner being frustrated that is the end of the discussion. By "blaming" the asexual could say "Well, I have said go get a sex partner, but you refuse! Don't blame me for your sexual frustrations!" or "I have told you the only way I am comfortable having sex, you didn't want to do that, so don't blame me." Or, things could be taken out of context - my partner and I when we get in a fight, I am always like "What? No, I did not say that." He hears things in a way different way when he is angry than when he is calm, we can't have a discussion on any issue until HOURS after the initial conflict because there is just no way to get the actual words understood (and I admit, sometimes I take what he says wrong as well). So, if a partner is coming here and writing during a very low / stressful time in a relationship, it's also quite possible their feelings are coloring the view of their partners actions. We don't know the partner, we can't ask their intentions, or their feelings or even if they have a different take on how such conversations go. Often a sexual partner will say "They HAD to know they didn't want sex, why did they lie to me?" - when one can only wish things were that simple. It's important to remember, often people are speaking through years of bitterness and resentment, even if they love their partners. I know for me, it's taken years to work out the two year sexual conflict in my relationship, there was SO much negative feeling built up in that time. His resentment of my saying no, my resentment of his pressuring and I am sure our relationship would have sounded pretty bad at that point if either of us had typed up just the negative bits (since usually the sexual doesn't list the positive parts in their asking for advice).

Lack of open communication or lack of understanding of oneself I think are two very big problems in mixed relationships. Asexuality is so very new and still doesn't get much coverage, so many aces still don't even know they are such. We get told so often EVERYONE likes it and EVERYONE wants it, so we must just be broken and we keep going along with the status quo trying to fix ourselves, or casually brushing off that feeling as nerves or whatever. We can't blame a poly person who realizes they really can't be monogamous after being in their first monogamous relationship and not liking it. We can't blame a homosexual who doesn't realize they are homosexual until trying heterosexual relationships and not liking it. We can't blame asexuals for trying sexual relationships and not liking it. In many cases, they either didn't realize OTHER was an option or they did and discussed it with people who assured them that wasn't their case, or they simply were in denial and refused to let themselves even believe their own feelings. Very rarely is it done out of malicious intent. So, if a promise of sex was made BEFORE they realized their orientation is different, it's pretty hard to hold them to it, especially if that promise would hurt them to keep. It's easy for someone to say "we'll have sex every day once we're married" if they've never had sex before and don't realize it will impact them negatively to do so.

When divorce isn't an option for whatever reason, it does suck. But, I will agree with Skullery that your posts sometimes do make me shudder a bit. But, as we discovered in some threads, sometimes what you write comes off worse than it was meant - like with your comment of it being none of the asexuals business if their partner has sex outside of the relationship, it sounded a lot like saying "Go cheat, they don't deserve to know if they won't have sex with you" - when you meant they have no right to control their partner and if the sexual needs sex outside, they should declare it and let the ace decide if it's enough to end the relationship or not. So, some of it could be the wording sounds way worse than you mean it to. So, I will continue to try to ask for clarification, while hoping the harsher interpretation isn't what is meant. But, perhaps clarifying a bit more might help too, if so many people are reading it that way as well? :)

Another thing to remember for everyone is don't let your own personal viewpoint be the only one you can see. I know when I post something about my partner's sex needs being frustrating, a lot of aces will tell me how horrible he sounds because to them, sex isn't important and it's horrible to want something a person doesn't enjoy to them. On the flip side, a sexual may see not wanting to have sex as just as horrible, or just letting a guy have your body for five minutes, how is that a big deal? Well, it's important to look outside our own worlds and understand the other side and respect it. A difficult task, but something that is, in my opinion, vital. :)

[Sally]

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I wrote a post that talks a little about where I'm coming from: http://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/96613-a-little-about-me/

That's nicely self-disclosive. Since there are other threads where your comments could be augmented by that post, I'd suggest you add it to them. It gives people a much clearer picture of you.

[Guest]

Look at it this way, if you can: an asexual could just as easily charge that their partner expecting sex is "mistreatment". Would that be logical?

Exactly. That's what happened to me when my story hit Tumblr. I was a rapist because in some asexual communities, apparently, if an asexual "compromises", that's abuse.

It is the exact same perspective but in reverse. There's no room for such simplistic, black and white ideals in real-life relationships. People aren't all the same, so any blanket statements, even ones that seem "common sense", are always going to be wrong.

[Pandante]

If a partner says "I'm not interested in any sexual activity or physical contact, or any compromise. I'm sorry, and I know you're hurting, but I just can't do it, and if it means the relationship will end, I understand" ... that's perfectly acceptable and legitimate. That's all anyone needs to do. Everyone has the right to set boundaries.

Refusing to discuss it, blaming and criticizing your partner, emotional abuse, stalling and making excuses, making promises and breaking them, on the other hand... while that may be understandable due to someone not understanding asexuality, I don't think that is acceptable behavior in a relationship.

This is all true, but the thing is, I think most cases are not that extreme or one-sided, but are somewhere in between. Communicating about such far-reaching, emotional, and thorny subjects with your partner is not easy, and not everyone reacts well and chooses the right words and the right amount of assertiveness, especially in the beginning. It's important to be open-hearted as well as understanding, gentle yet clear-headed,.. and most of all patient. Then little by little the communication improves, mutual understanding improves, and it becomes clearer which route to take in the relationship.

[Guest]

Also, making and breaking promises, stalling, and making excuses is actually quite reasonable. My partner does all of those things, as I'm sure many of our partners do.

But you should see me with the vacuuming. I make all kinds of promises to vacuum... and we have 3 pets so vacuuming is important... but still, I will evade, make excuses (my favorite one: I won't vacuum until you clean the kitty litter out of it because gross).

People have a hard time performing chores. My partner is actually grey-a, so she does occasionally want sex, but as I've said many times before, if she promises me we'll have sex later that night, I know with 100% certainty that we won't.

That doesn't make her abusive. It's a pattern I noticed so I've adjusted my expectations. When you can solve a relationship problem simply by acknowledging your partner's behavior and modifying your expectations, then that's probably a better way to go than cheating on them.

[Guest]

Also, making and breaking promises, stalling, and making excuses is actually quite reasonable. My partner does all of those things, as I'm sure many of our partners do.

But you should see me with the vacuuming. I make all kinds of promises to vacuum... and we have 3 pets so vacuuming is important... but still, I will evade, make excuses (my favorite one: I won't vacuum until you clean the kitty litter out of it because gross).

People have a hard time performing chores. My partner is actually grey-a, so she does occasionally want sex, but as I've said many times before, if she promises me we'll have sex later that night, I know with 100% certainty that we won't.

That doesn't make her abusive. It's a pattern I noticed so I've adjusted my expectations. When you can solve a relationship problem simply by acknowledging your partner's behavior and modifying your expectations, then that's probably a better way to go than cheating on them.

My partner does that with chores too. Some things I have just given up on him doing altogether. Something that he finds unimportant that I want him to do is not something that is easy for him. No matter how much I would like him to do it.

[YeOldeToast]

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things.

...Because it's not like breaking up is an option. A partner not wanting to compromise is not a form of abuse, it's a boundary which they're most comfortable with and the objections of the other does not change that, that just means they're incompatible if neither partner can or wants to budge. It's no an act of vindictiveness or abuse, and if it is then wouldn't you say that's a relationship worth ending? Making demands is just rattling the cage and making both of you more uncomfortable and if it reaches that point then it's safe to say it's the beginning of the end and you should split before shit completely hits the fan because it's a big, screaming neon sign with bold letters saying 'This just won't work!'.

That is one possibility. And I agree, people can have boundaries that make them incompatible, and that by itself is not abuse. When I refer to harmful situations, I'm not just talking about someone having a boundary, I'm talking about actual mistreatment.

However, there are numerous threads on here where people were able to reach a compromise that ended up making their relationships better -- but those compromises were only reached when one person was able to say "I've hit a wall. I can't deal with it anymore. I need something to change or I can't stay in this relationship," and the other person was only able to compromise when they realized that this was serious -- their partner would actually leave over the way they had been treated.

Those compromises were reached by raising an issue and discussing it together, not making demands. A compromise is best reached when you say you're unhappy for X reasons and the couples reach a conclusion, not by saying 'I'm horny and unhappy, get your hand in my pants now or I'm going out and screwing someone else'. And how do you mean actual mistreatment? You mean a partner who deliberately restricts another for the sake of vindictiveness? Making demands won't do much there either because clearly they won't care enough about you to act on your demands and just enjoy getting a kick out of fucking with you. And even if it does work, it should be clear before then that they're not someone you'd want to be around.

[Sally]

I think as long as not having sex with your partner (for whatever reason) is defined as mistreatment/cruelty/disrespect, etc., there's really not much good in continuing this discussion. When things are cast in the context of "innocent and guilty", what understanding can be reached?

[Guest]

I think as long as not having sex with your partner (for whatever reason) is defined as mistreatment/cruelty/disrespect, etc., there's really not much good in continuing this discussion. When things are cast in the context of "innocent and guilty", what understanding can be reached?

There seems to be willful ignorance about what asexuality is. It's a natural state. Natural states are tough to defeat. It's not like simply choosing not to have sex because you think its a sin... its not as easy as just changing an asexual's opinion on sex.

Now, don't mistake me, I don't think its an illness at all, but it would be like my partner demanding I don't wear corrective lenses and then yelling at me because I can't see, or getting mad at a partner with, say, anorexia for not eating. It's not as simple as "eating is good for you, so eat!!!".

If that's all it took, just someone "demanding", there wouldn't be a gay person or anorexic people or people with OCD...

I'm sure if he could have, my high school boyfriend would have demanded the lesbian right out of me.

[Janus the Fox]

Look at it this way, if you can: an asexual could just as easily charge that their partner expecting sex is "mistreatment". Would that be logical?

Exactly. That's what happened to me when my story hit Tumblr. I was a rapist because in some asexual communities, apparently, if an asexual "compromises", that's abuse.

Le gasp... Best not make 'reverse rape' a thing, Tumblr would be all over that as another reason to avoid AVEN