Why We are Here

[BlackRose]

Alos, as far as "bad days" go: while I realize that this doesn't work in every relationship, these kind of bad days strike me as the perfect time to have sex outside the relationship... sex can have a healing power that can help with the hard days, in a way that's hard for many asexuals to understand. I'd strongly encourage people to consider having that type of release valve; it can save relationships.

What are you basing this on??? What is your evidence that "it can save relationships"?

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that any licensed therapist in their right mind would suggest the moment you're in the bathroom crying as the ideal moment to have an affair. Jesus Christ.

Ridicule and exaggerate all you want, but many people have said that it saved their sanity and relationship to have a sex partner to turn to when they're feeling especially low or depressed or rejected.

It's no different than having a loving and supportive friend to turn to, except that the friendship is extra accepting because it includes sex. Some people need a friend to turn to when they're in the bathroom crying, and a friend who wants sex can help you feel attractive and desirable.

Like Lady Girl says, it's not the right way to go for everyone, but for a lot of people, it's what keeps them going and it's what they need.

[Guest]

Who are all these people? Where are your stats? Again, I ask, who the hell are you, what's your story, and why should we give anything you say any credibility? I've not seen anything that suggests you give a fuck about the people in this forum. You very clearly have a bizarre vested interest in people cheating, and if you think you're somehow obscuring it, you're crazy.

I'm officially calling bullshit on Black Rose. You're obviously here for a reason that has nothing to do with giving people support.

By the way, I find it amusing that your suggestion for every single person is "cheat. your partner blows.", and yet you keep claiming to take an individual, personal interest in each poster. So, it's what, just coincidence that no matter what anyone says, your advice is exactly the same?

[BlackRose]

Skullery Maid, I just don't know what to make of your repeated hostility and inflammatory rhetoric in response to many of my comments. This is not the way to have a respectful or productive conversation. I don't owe you any kind of explanation and I have just as much right to be here and state my thoughts as you do.

I'm happy to discuss these topics further with you or anyone else, because I believe reasonable people can disagree and discuss their differences in a friendly and productive manner, but I don't need your insults.

[joesantus]

Ridicule and exaggerate all you want, but many people have said that it saved their sanity and relationship to have a sex partner to turn to when they're feeling especially low or depressed or rejected.

It's no different than having a loving and supportive friend to turn to, except that the friendship is extra accepting because it includes sex. Some people need a friend to turn to when they're in the bathroom crying, and a friend who wants sex can help you feel attractive and desirable.

Like Lady Girl says, it's not the right way to go for everyone, but for a lot of people, it's what keeps them going and it's what they need.

Rose, do you mean having extra-relational sex only after the possibilty for extra-relational sex has been thoroughly discussed between the partners in the relationship? If you do, then, I do agree that extra-relational sex can be positive in various ways for some (though proportionately not many and likely not most) Sexuals, both for themselves and for their relationship. Just as a partner is aware of one's loving and supportive friends, the partner would likewise be aware of one's loving and supportive friends-with-benefits.

But as far as undiscussed, undisclosed extra-relational sex...well, sure, I can believe it's what keeps some going and it's what they need IF their idea of relationships is "the dishonesty/lying involved in having extra-relational sex without discussing it with my partner can't possibly damage our relationship, and/or I really don't care enough whether my extra-marital sex hurts my partner or further damages our relationship anyway".

[BlackRose]

joesantus, clearly the ideal is to discuss and disclose extra-marital sex. I think in the situations where it's not discussed or disclosed, it's usually, as you suggest, that the relationship is already severely damaged and that neither partner really cares if they're hurting the other.

Especially for religious people, people without much money, or people with kids, if your partner says something like "no sex, no discussions about it, no compromise, if you have sex with anyone else I'll use it against you and screw you over, and if you try to get divorced I'll screw you over" then you don't really have any other recourse, and your partner has made it clear that they don't care about you at all anyway.

Put another way, denying sex can be as bad or worse as "cheating" and can be a type of emotional abuse, so if your partner isn't willing to talk or compromise, and you can't realistically get out of the relationship... essentially your partner has already broken the agreement and it seems silly to try to pretend there's an agreement worth keeping. But that's an extreme case.

[Lady Girl]

Put another way, denying sex can be as bad or worse as "cheating" and can be a type of emotional abuse, so if your partner isn't willing to talk or compromise, and you can't realistically get out of the relationship... essentially your partner has already broken the agreement and it seems silly to try to pretend there's an agreement worth keeping. But that's an extreme case.

I'm going to go so far as to say that many of the asexual partners in the relationships I've seen being discussed on this board don't fit into this "denying" sex category. I just don't think it's that simple. I also stand by what I've said a few times already...marriage is not an agreement to have sex, it's a promise to share the joy and heartaches we all experience, and support each other as best as we can in this life. In some cases, that life together may actually see an end to sexual relations but a continued effort to support and love each other.

[Sally]

BlackRose, on 22 Dec 2013 - 8:47 PM, said:BlackRose, on 22 Dec 2013 - 8:47 PM, said:

Especially for religious people, people without much money, or people with kids, if your partner says something like "no sex, no discussions about it, no compromise, if you have sex with anyone else I'll use it against you and screw you over, and if you try to get divorced I'll screw you over" then you don't really have any other recourse, and your partner has made it clear that they don't care about you at all anyway.

Put another way, denying sex can be as bad or worse as "cheating" and can be a type of emotional abuse, so if your partner isn't willing to talk or compromise, and you can't realistically get out of the relationship... essentially your partner has already broken the agreement and it seems silly to try to pretend there's an agreement worth keeping. But that's an extreme case.

Oh give me a break. "If you try to get divorced I'll screw you over"???!!!??? You live in California. You are aware, aren't you -- if not, you shouldn't be talking about this at all -- that no one can stop their partner from getting a divorce. File your damned papers; they are served, the divorce happens without fault of either party x number of months later.

Denying sex can be as bad or worse than cheating? That's crazy, because no one -- NO ONE -- owes anybody else sex. What you said is the standard excuse used by someone who simply is too cowardly to get out of a marriage that doesn't please them, and also too cowardly to tell their partner, flat out, that they intend to have sex with someone else.

You seem to think that your partner -- because I assume you're talking about yourself here; otherwise, why are you here? -- is some kind of vending machine and you can punch a button and get sex. Bullshit. If you don't like your marriage, then leave it. Grow some ba---um, get a backbone.

And stop acting like you're the therapist for all the unhappy sexuals on AVEN. Many, many of them don't agree with your attitude. As they have told you, repeatedly.

[BlackRose]

Put another way, denying sex can be as bad or worse as "cheating" and can be a type of emotional abuse, so if your partner isn't willing to talk or compromise, and you can't realistically get out of the relationship... essentially your partner has already broken the agreement and it seems silly to try to pretend there's an agreement worth keeping. But that's an extreme case.

I'm going to go so far as to say that many of the asexual partners in the relationships I've seen being discussed on this board don't fit into this "denying" sex category. I just don't think it's that simple. I also stand by what I've said a few times already...marriage is not an agreement to have sex, it's a promise to share the joy and heartaches we all experience, and support each other as best as we can in this life. In some cases, that life together may actually see an end to sexual relations but a continued effort to support and love each other.

I think the vast majority of mixed relationships are respectful and involve good compromises. However, there are a few discussed on here that don't seem like that, but seem more like abusive relationships where one partner is miserable and the other doesn't care. Hopefully we can all agree that most asexuals are not abusive or selfish people and I would hate for Skullery Maid or anyone else to think I thought that.

I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to make statements about mixed relationships in general.

As far as your statements about what marriage is, I think marriage is something different for every couple. I think sex and agreements around sex are often a very important part of a marriage, and two of the most commonly stated expectations and complaints revolve around cheating and denying sex. It's fair to say that most people going into a marriage either explicitly or implicitly agree to a) not cheat on each other and b) not deny each other sex on a regular basis. Some marriages have different rules or expectations though. But that all falls under "support each other as best we can."

As I see it, in a good relationship, both partners should always be asking "how are you doing? how am I doing? how are you generally feeling about life, sex, our relationship, and any other major areas of importance? how can we compromise or change things to make things better for us as a team?"

[Sally]

.

I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to make statements about mixed relationships in general.

That hasn't been clear at all to me.

[BlackRose]

Glad to clear that up, then! :)

You may want to go back and read through what I actually wrote, as you seem to have a habit of reading things into my posts that I didn't write.

[Sally]

Glad to clear that up, then! :)

You may want to go back and read through what I actually wrote, as you seem to have a habit of reading things into my posts that I didn't write.

I don't appear to be the only one, BlackRose who doesn't quite know what you're trying to do, and why you're making the comments you're making, and why instead of talking a bit about your own personal situation (as the rest of us do), you simply tell others what they should be doing.

[BlackRose]

STOP. Please just stop the hostility. I'm tired of it.

[Lady Girl]

Glad to clear that up, then! :)

You may want to go back and read through what I actually wrote, as you seem to have a habit of reading things into my posts that I didn't write.

I don't appear to be the only one, BlackRose who doesn't quite know what you're trying to do, and why you're making the comments you're making, and why instead of talking a bit about your own personal situation (as the rest of us do), you simply tell others what they should be doing.

I'm rather confused, I've read your posts numerous times. It's hard to say what it feels like to read your advice to us, but more often than not it makes some of us sound like doormats for having the types of relationships we do, and other times I feel like I'm hearing a drill sergeant, commanding us to demand our spouses step up to the plate.

I'm sorry if you feel we are hostile BlackRose. I have been feeling sort of pushed into a corner myself.

[BlackRose]

Not sure what to say to that, LG, nor do I really understand how or why this thread became a general attack on me or my posts. I've commented on a handful of descriptions people have written about their relationships, and described what I thought, just as many others here have. Nothing I said is out of line with what many other people on this site have said. I don't recall having said anything regarding your situation or given you advice, though I may be mistaken. I'm a bit confused at why you've taken things I've said personally when they weren't directed to you or your situation. I'm sorry you haven't found what I wrote helpful or clear.

[Guest]

Oh give me a break. "If you try to get divorced I'll screw you over"???!!!??? You live in California. You are aware, aren't you -- if not, you shouldn't be talking about this at all -- that no one can stop their partner from getting a divorce. File your damned papers; they are served, the divorce happens without fault of either party x number of months later.

Denying sex can be as bad or worse than cheating? That's crazy, because no one -- NO ONE -- owes anybody else sex. What you said is the standard excuse used by someone who simply is too cowardly to get out of a marriage that doesn't please them, and also too cowardly to tell their partner, flat out, that they intend to have sex with someone else.

You seem to think that your partner -- because I assume you're talking about yourself here; otherwise, why are you here? -- is some kind of vending machine and you can punch a button and get sex. Bullshit. If you don't like your marriage, then leave it. Grow some ba---um, get a backbone.

And stop acting like you're the therapist for all the unhappy sexuals on AVEN. Many, many of them don't agree with your attitude. As they have told you, repeatedly.

Cake!

I don't owe you any kind of explanation and I have just as much right to be here and state my thoughts as you do.

You do owe us an explanation. We are a group of people who put our lives, our hearts, and our heartbreak out there in hope of some genuine interaction. The absolute least you can do, when a bunch of people are engaging openly and honestly, is to do the same.

You're not. You seem to think you're being real sneaky, not sharing anything, but continually telling people to insult and abuse their partners. What right are you referring to when you say you have a right to approach a group who has intentionally made themselves vulnerable, and, rather than join in, you insult their spouses and relationships?

Please tell me where this "right" of yours comes from. Legal? Yes. But morally? No, definitely not.

[BlackRose]

I have never told anyone to insult or abuse their partners, nor have I insulted anyone's spouse or relationship. I am part of this forum and I am participating in conversations just like you are. I am engaging openly and honestly and I am happy to share details about my life.

I don't understand why you are being repeatedly hostile, I really don't. I feel repeatedly attacked and criticized out of nowhere and it's just starting to hurt.

[Lady Girl]

I'm starting this thread to accommodate several posts from the topic Good days and bad days as the thread became more than slightly derailed and we want to be able to continue to discuss the original topic there.

This topic is about why some of us are currently here (in this forum in particular) and how we feel we are helping the other sexual members with our advice. There is a bit of a disagreement as to how to help and what kind of tone or advice we should be giving one another.

I think it would be helpful if we could be open and honest with each other in this thread and remain civil at the same time.

All of the posts above have been split from Good days and bad days.

Lady Girl, Moderator

[BlackRose]

Thanks for moving that out of the other thread, Lady Girl.

I'm here on AVEN to participate in conversations about sexuality, asexuality, and relationships; to learn from other people's perspectives and experiences; and to share my own thoughts and opinions.

I realize some people disagree with many of my thoughts, which is fine... I have no problem with disagreement and debate. I do have a problem with being personally attacked, accused of things I didn't do, or having my honesty and integrity questioned. If someone disagrees with something I said, say so and post what you think: that's why we have many different perspectives here.

If people want to know about my personal life, I'm happy to answer questions, though I reserve the right to keep some details private.

[Guest]

If someone disagrees with something I said, say so and post what you think: that's why we have many different perspectives here.

If people want to know about my personal life, I'm happy to answer questions, though I reserve the right to keep some details private.

1. "Here" we have lots of perspectives, if by "here" you mean AVEN. But this isn't all of AVEN, this is a specific place for sexual partners to find support from people who can actually help them. You can't help them if you can't relate. This isn't the place for waxing philosophic about what appropriate marriage behavior is. You are more than welcome to start a thread about it and gather perspectives there, but no... not all perspectives are necessary every single time a sexual comes on here asking for help. Some perspectives, like telling people who love their partners to demand sex, may not be helpful, and may in fact make everyone feel much worse. If you can't relate your own experiences, then we can't even tell you WHY it's so hurtful. But maybe this will help... I love my wife, and if anyone treated her the way you suggest sexuals treat their partners, I would want to kill that person. If you care so little about your partner that you're actually OK blackmailing them for sex (which is rape IMO), then you're in the wrong place. We don't hate our partners. We love them, want to understand them, want to find a mutually beneficial outcome... but damn if your "advice" doesn't strike an immediate protective instinct in me to shield all asexuals from your messed up ideas.

2. I've asked you 3 times for your personal story and you've ignored my questions, so forgive me for being skeptical that you're "happy to share".

[BlackRose]

1. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I seriously don't know what your issue is but you have extreme reactions to small things I say and you have a habit of taking things out of context. If I say something to one particular individual, that does not generalize to "how sexuals should treat their partners." I didn't say anything to you about your relationship or your partner and would give you very different advice.

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things (and Pandante and others have said similar things). I said something like that only in reply to over-the-top situations where it seemed like nothing else had worked or would work. You are free to disagree with me but it is inaccurate to say that this is general advice I'm giving, or that I support "blackmailing" people.

Quite simply you do not appear to be conversing in good faith. If you want to have a conversation please start by assuming that I am a reasonable and respectful person and try to respond to what I said, not an exaggeration or distortion.

2. You said something like "What's your story" in the context of a post where you repeatedly accused me of things and attacked me, so forgive me for not responding with specific details about my life. Ask specific questions if you want answers. I don't know what you are actually asking.

[Pandante]

Yes, lets keep the hostility down. I understand BlackRose's views (and though i don't agree, i'm not offended by them) and i understand why ppl are a bit upset, but it just seems like we're talking past each other a bit.

I think there are two separate issues here, two main points of disagreement: abuse by the asexual of their position and getting sex outside a relationship. And the disagreements are fairly easily clarified, i think.

First, i think there are essentially no cases in which the asexual partner is consciously and strategically abusing the other. And there are only a few cases in which a form of unconscious abuse is happening, or in which the sexual feels abused. Either way, break up or divorce may be advised if communication leads nowhere. In all other cases, which apply to most of us, there is much hope, and much happiness to be gained i a mixed relationship, even though we may have tough times to go through. But life is full of tough times, not just regarding sex.

Whether sex outside marriage or a relationship is justified or will lead to an improvement of the situation will depend on both partners. Unless both agree to open up the relationship/marriage, this will only lead to break up/divorce. BlackRose argues that the asexual has no right to disagree with sex outside the relationship because this constitutes a form of abusive control, but i think most of us in don't feel that in our mixed relationship. Thus this argument (regardless of whether it is right or not) doesn not apply to most of us. And half us are reluctant pursuing extra-marital sex, even if our partners permitted it.

Anyway, i don't think BlackRose intends to offend or mislead us with their opinion, so let's be a bit more gentle in our responses. The cases their arguments apply to are, i believe, mainly more extreme cases where things are very one-sided and reconciliation is clearly not possible. In most of our relationship, there is no abuse, and there is enough hope to encourage finding solutions, compromises, tricks and trips, in order to retain all the other wonderful aspects of the relationship.

[Guest]

1. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I seriously don't know what your issue is but you have extreme reactions to small things I say and you have a habit of taking things out of context. If I say something to one particular individual, that does not generalize to "how sexuals should treat their partners." I didn't say anything to you about your relationship or your partner and would give you very different advice.

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things (and Pandante and others have said similar things). I said something like that only in reply to over-the-top situations where it seemed like nothing else had worked or would work. You are free to disagree with me but it is inaccurate to say that this is general advice I'm giving, or that I support "blackmailing" people.

Quite simply you do not appear to be conversing in good faith. If you want to have a conversation please start by assuming that I am a reasonable and respectful person and try to respond to what I said, not an exaggeration or distortion.

2. You said something like "What's your story" in the context of a post where you repeatedly accused me of things and attacked me, so forgive me for not responding with specific details about my life. Ask specific questions if you want answers. I don't know what you are actually asking.

Still haven't actually shared anything.

[BlackRose]

1. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I seriously don't know what your issue is but you have extreme reactions to small things I say and you have a habit of taking things out of context. If I say something to one particular individual, that does not generalize to "how sexuals should treat their partners." I didn't say anything to you about your relationship or your partner and would give you very different advice.

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things (and Pandante and others have said similar things). I said something like that only in reply to over-the-top situations where it seemed like nothing else had worked or would work. You are free to disagree with me but it is inaccurate to say that this is general advice I'm giving, or that I support "blackmailing" people.

Quite simply you do not appear to be conversing in good faith. If you want to have a conversation please start by assuming that I am a reasonable and respectful person and try to respond to what I said, not an exaggeration or distortion.

2. You said something like "What's your story" in the context of a post where you repeatedly accused me of things and attacked me, so forgive me for not responding with specific details about my life. Ask specific questions if you want answers. I don't know what you are actually asking.

Still haven't actually shared anything.

Still haven't asked anything.

[Guest]

And no, I don't think you're here in good faith, and I don't think you're being at all honest. My assumption is that you're a member of some other internet group, one that may encourage cheating, one that is looking for unhappy married people for some extra-curricular fun, but I do not believe you're here telling people to demand sex because you genuinely want to provide a human connection. Because you're actively not trying to make a connection, because your responses are notably inappropriate, because you refuse to share your personal story, because you keep trying to distance yourself from us ("oh, well that's the difference between us, I care about sex" or "normal people wouldn't put up with that").

Pandante, I think its great that you think we should all be bffs, but no... Black Rose says he doesn't owe us an explanation of who they are, and I strongly disagree, and the more time that goes by and we get more delightful explanations of how much Black Rose has sex and how bad Black Rose feels for all of us idiots who don't have enough sex.... the longer this pattern continues, the more skeptical I become.

But that's fine. You guys be best friends and I'll come back when Rose gets sick of picking on us.

[BlackRose]

Why do you dislike me so much? What did I ever do to you?

You come at me with all this hostility and hate, make these bizarre accusations that have no merit and are supported by no evidence, continue to say that I said things I didn't say, repeatedly. And you say I'm picking on you?

Look, if you don't actually want to have a productive dialog, just leave me alone. Please. Just ignore me. I can't deal with this fighting and abuse.

[Pandante]

I don't think we all need to be best friends, but we don't need to be enemies either. And of course, I like, respect, and am indebted to you a lot, Skullery Maid, for all the good advice and support you have given me and others. So i'd rather like to stay friends with you!

But, BlackRose, do you not realise why we doubt your opinions and advice, and why they don't carry much weight as it stands?

For example, I appreciated you replying to my post, but i couldn't consider your advice or opinions seriously because i don't know what they were based on. Your own experience, your philosophy, ... it was unclear, so all i could do was dismiss them. Not least, also, because the conditions under which your opinions and advice might be valid didn't apply to my relationship at all.

To improve the relevance of your posts, it might be useful to enlarge your understanding of the motivations we in mixed relationships have which keep us going. It's not always easy deducing the motivations from the threads (mainly because we come here for support with regard to the problems in our relationships), and the first reaction may be 'why are u even in this relationship?', but simply voicing that thought and adding that we should just seek sex outside just seems to imply that you haven't thought about the situation very long, and have not been in a similar situation. You have to assume that things are a bit deeper than that. It is your oversimplification of our problems - and this without reference to experience - that is angering some.

[YeOldeToast]

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things.

...Because it's not like breaking up is an option. A partner not wanting to compromise is not a form of abuse, it's a boundary which they're most comfortable with and the objections of the other does not change that, that just means they're incompatible if neither partner can or wants to budge. It's no an act of vindictiveness or abuse, and if it is then wouldn't you say that's a relationship worth ending? Making demands is just rattling the cage and making both of you more uncomfortable and if it reaches that point then it's safe to say it's the beginning of the end and you should split before shit completely hits the fan because it's a big, screaming neon sign with bold letters saying 'This just won't work!'.

[Harzel174]

Relationships aren't a battle, they're a perpetual compromise. Either that means mutual sacrifice or coming to some middle ground. I'd certainly hope mixed sexuals aren't coming here for permission to seek revenge. That's... that's the worst thing imaginable.

I first came here feeling hurt and vulnerable and filled with all sorts of intrusive thoughts. My very first post was just an emotional dump, and it's a little embarrassing to look back upon. But I've since felt like I'm no longer alone in dealing with this, and it's given me the strength to come back to my SO not clad for war, but with a deeper understanding of just what is going on and how to better arrive at an effective solution. I'm not in the mindset of "getting even," but rather "how can I make this work?" The topic seems to have drifted to open relationships, which I think can be perfectly viable, but there's a massive difference between starting an open relationship and cheating. If your partner is uncomfortable with an open relationship, it's your choice to deal with that or not, but that's on YOU. Not the other person.

[Sally]

Blackrose, I am asking you to describe your own relationship, your life, your feelings and emotions about that relationship (past or present), and about your life in general. Just as we all do. I don't really remember anyone else coming onto this forum (sexuals/asexuals) without doing so. But all you have shared is your need to have a lot of sex. That isn't sharing. The other thing you have done is lecture us and make pronouncements about what people should and should not do. That isn't sharing.

So let's hear about your life. No weaseling away, no demands for people to stop being hostile. Share.

[BlackRose]

I believe that in some extreme situations, where the sexual partner has been ignored, disrespected, and poorly treated, as a last resort, making demands can be a way of helping things.

...Because it's not like breaking up is an option. A partner not wanting to compromise is not a form of abuse, it's a boundary which they're most comfortable with and the objections of the other does not change that, that just means they're incompatible if neither partner can or wants to budge. It's no an act of vindictiveness or abuse, and if it is then wouldn't you say that's a relationship worth ending? Making demands is just rattling the cage and making both of you more uncomfortable and if it reaches that point then it's safe to say it's the beginning of the end and you should split before shit completely hits the fan because it's a big, screaming neon sign with bold letters saying 'This just won't work!'.

That is one possibility. And I agree, people can have boundaries that make them incompatible, and that by itself is not abuse. When I refer to harmful situations, I'm not just talking about someone having a boundary, I'm talking about actual mistreatment.

However, there are numerous threads on here where people were able to reach a compromise that ended up making their relationships better -- but those compromises were only reached when one person was able to say "I've hit a wall. I can't deal with it anymore. I need something to change or I can't stay in this relationship," and the other person was only able to compromise when they realized that this was serious -- their partner would actually leave over the way they had been treated.

Relationships aren't a battle, they're a perpetual compromise. Either that means mutual sacrifice or coming to some middle ground. I'd certainly hope mixed sexuals aren't coming here for permission to seek revenge. That's... that's the worst thing imaginable.

I don't think the issue is revenge. I don't think anyone wants permission to seek revenge. It's more trying to find a way to get through to the other person and have them at least listen to you.