Car pooling

[michaeld]

I'd like to further discuss this very interesting suggestion by Wolf.star. Europeans like me tend to forget how massive the USA and Canada are, and that crossing the country by car or train isn't a matter of hours like it is for places such as the UK.

In the thread for those interested in coming, I saw there were a few people from the US (and of course quite a lot from Canada). This applies to everyone no matter the country, but I was thinking it would save people (who are further away) individual air/trainfare if we started driving from West to East, picking people up along the way, and split gas accordingly. People could stay at cheap motels or make it sort of a camping trip, where you stay at nature parks (they're either free or charge a very minimal fee. Somewhere between $10-20 per night. At least the ones I've been to). Five or six people splitting gas and accomodations would more than likely be cheaper than everyone paying their own way. I'm most likely the furthest NW in the US, and driving eight hours a day would make the trip about five and a half days. You could shorten that timespan if each group takes turns driving/sleeping and drives all through the night or drives most of the day and only stops a few hours. If a group took turns driving and sleeping, it would be (from here) slightly less than a two day trip.

Just an idea to bounce around. :)

EDIT:

I was looking at things because I like to do research. The average MPG is 25, and I couldn't find an average gas price for the US as a country, but by state the median price is $3.3. If there's five people, and you want somewhat better quality than dollar menu food, at three meals a day and $10 per meal, you're looking at about $150 for the whole group per day. If you're fine with cheaper food that's not the dollar menu kind, at $3.99 per meal it would be about $59.85 for the group per day. So food costs are pretty flexible. I couldn't find an average motel rate because it seems they factor in the fancier hotels, but $30-50 per night seems like a decent estimate.You could bypass this by not staying in motels/hotels and driving all night or staying at nature parks, which would be $20 at most (as far as I know). You'd need to bring tents and things, though. From here (2,552 miles from Toronto), without calculating motel/nature park costs on the plan of driving all night, with 2 days of $3.99 per meal costs, it would be $456.56 one way. Divided evenly between five people, that would be $91.32 per person one way. The best price for a non-stop flight to Toronto (one way) was a 4 hour flight at $336. The cheapest was $290 (10 hour flight with two stops). This was for Tues, June 24 (if you're planning on going to the conferences before the WorldPride). Prices go up to the cheapest being $345 on Friday, June 27.

I think this sounds like a great idea. It might save on costs, encourage more people to come who are put off by the distances, and also add to the experience. I can imagine some amazing discussions happening over those long trips.

OK so obvious questions are obvious:

(1) Who would be interested in taking part in such a scheme - doing part of the driving and/or making an appropriate cost to petrol and other expenses?

(2) What are the best routes to consider? North American geography, anyone...?

(3) Is it worth considering the possibility of renting out a mini-coach of some kind?

Feel free to discuss any other questions I missed out!

[Lia]

Take into consideration the following things:

More people and luggage = more weight, which will average a lower MPG.

Picking up people will detour the route so it will add time.

Your #3 question fully depends on the number of people willing to participate vs the price of the rental.

Bringing tents and such to sleep at camp sites, cool idea. Not so cool idea: where these tents etc. will be stored during Pride (hotel rooms can be small, as many of us know).

Cut down on food costs (because even cheap food adds up over time) and stock some insulated lunch bags with snacks and water (can we all tell Lia took her share of family road trips as a child?).

Those who want to carpool meet at a certain rendez-vous point (a central, larger city where transit (this might be more economical for those in places like NJ and meeting in NYC or something similar) is easy to navigate).

Routes depend on where you're going from, really. Some might find it cheaper to hop a quick flight to the nearest major city and get in on a carpool that way. Googling, from Dallas to Toronto it's a 21 hour trip and takes me through 5 or 6 different states. Coming from the northwest would, likely, put you into Canada early on so it's a straight shot over rather than having to dip low around some of the lakes. Coming from the northeastern US would probably put you into Canada early on in the trip, too.

Also consider this option of a local picking up a few who are coming into a nearby airport from abroad and carpooling that way (not sure how many are flying in from other countries).

[Kagon]

Assuming I do actually go, I would definitely be interested in finding ways to spit costs with people. Again, assuming I go I'm not sure yet if I'd drive or if I'd see how things would work by train, but I'm no where near as far as some are (Chicago area). I would prefer share accommodations with someone I'd at least *met* before as opposed to a near complete stranger, so I'd prefer to see if anyone I might have run across in my area's meetup group first (especially seeing as I have a car and would drive if I decided to). But, this would be another option.

[Guest]

For route, you'd have to figure out who wants to car pool and then plan a route from that. Every detour is going to add time and money to the trip though.

Honestly, it's going to be tough to get a lot of spread out people involved. But, you could group it up by area. Someone from Florida going and carpooling could easily pick up the people from the states they drive through if they could arrange a central meeting area, for example. It's not very economical to stop off at say, Texas if you start in say, Washington though. So, getting a list of where people are who want to do this is a good place to start.

Just remember driving cross-country is long, boring and can become frustrating. If you're going to carpool, I recommend bringing some entertainment. Tablets, portable DVD players, etc and lots of movies. Books are nice, but you'll need a reading light that isn't too bright (don't distract the driver at night with a bright light). Lia is right, bring a cooler with drinks and some food you can make by stopping at a rest area rather than stopping at a restaurant. That $6 grand slam seems cheap, but it can add up over a multi-day trip - not only in money, but also in time (you have to go in, sit down, order, get food, pay, leave). And not everyone is going to want mcdonalds every day, most likely (yuck). My family usually kept a cooler in the trunk full of sandwiches, sodas and other snacks we could just pull over, grab, eat, go to the restroom and get back on the road. Also, if you're doing cheap hotels, you may want to try to plan to book ahead of time, July has a lot of events going on and you don't want to run into no vacancies or have to go for the $30 a night room with blood on the sheets because it's all that is available (been there, done that, gross).

Ok, I may have been on some long road trips in my life. :lol:

[Wolf.star]

Oh, here's something I didn't think of in my 5-minute-quick-research post. We should probably have people group together not only on how close they are to each other based on the route, but also when they plan to be at World Pride. I'm sure some people only want to go for the weekend and others may want to go for the whole World Pride.

[Zash]

Another suggestion to minimize costs would be to fly to Buffalo and then carpool up to Toronto. International flights are significantly higher than domestic flights. (For trips in the US, I often drive down to Buffalo and fly out from there).

I don't know if that is any more feasible than carpooling in general, and I am not sure if you can rent a car to go up to the US, or how much that changes the price.

[The Evil Cashew]

There are several good borders for crossing into canada depending on which state your coming from and which province you want to enter with,(Detroit, Port Huron and Niagra falls are ones in southwestern ontario for example) though I will agree with Zash that its cheaper to fly to a close airport in the US and then drive from there instead of flying into canada from the US (other international arrivals are probably best just to fly into Toronto or a close airport) Detroit Airport is not far from 2 US/Can Borders

Camping is an option but that is of course extra gear you would have to carry and not always an option. You can rent vans.. not sure how cost effective that would be but its doable. I have friends who have rented a vehicle in florida, driven up to Ontario, visited and then drove home. Just remember that the Canada/US borders have gotten REALLY strict since 9/11 and there are a ton of rules for crossing.

In most case you NEED a passport. I know with the US there are passport cards and other things.. so make SURE you have the proper documentation for crossing into canada. Also, if you are packing a cooler, i know going from US to canada the rules are a bit more lenient.. but going back there is a list of things you cant bring... just to keep that in mind.

Another note in the camping department, for your stay in Toronto, there is the Glen Rouge conservation area. Its a nice campground and actually where i did my first meetup and met Hallucigenia and Sonofzeal and others. Its a nice campground and not too expensive if your one who likes the camping. I would suggest booking ahead of time. http://www.trca.on.ca/GlenRouge/

[The Evil Cashew]

Also just remembered this... if someone is looking for cheaper accommodations, there is also the possibility of Uni's and colleges renting out the dorms in the summer like a hotel does. I know i stayed in one in Toronto last July. They arent the cheapest option but they are cheaper than most hotels.

[Kagon]

Another note in the camping department, for your stay in Toronto, there is the Glen Rouge conservation area. Its a nice campground and actually where i did my first meetup and met Hallucigenia and Sonofzeal and others. Its a nice campground and not too expensive if your one who likes the camping. I would suggest booking ahead of time. http://www.trca.on.ca/GlenRouge/

Camping - I hadn't really thought of camping as I'm about an 8 hour drive and wouldn't need to camp *on* my way, but camping *while* there sounds awesome. If I'm able to go, hopefully some other people here will think likewise - camping is one of those activities best enjoyed in groups.

[Guest]

In most case you NEED a passport. I know with the US there are passport cards and other things.. so make SURE you have the proper documentation for crossing into canada. Also, if you are packing a cooler, i know going from US to canada the rules are a bit more lenient.. but going back there is a list of things you cant bring... just to keep that in mind.

I did the Niagra crossing in 2006? or 2005, forget which and it was pretty easy going. They asked us what we had to declare crossing into Canada, didn't check anything and looked at our passports. On the way back, they asked a few more questions since what we had to declare was a bit odd... ("A few thousand in trading cards. Yes, each of those cards is worth hundreds. Nope, that is all we bought while in the country. Yes, people actually pay that much for a card game.") There was no searching of the car or anything. Took around five minutes to cross on the way in, about ten on the way out. It was one of the least stressful checkpoints I have been across since 9/11. So, it's not too bad, as long as you remember to bring everything and cooperate with the border guards. They might ask some odd seeming questions, but just respond truthfully and respectfully and have your passports already out when you pull up and they try to make it as quick and painless as possible.

[Zash]

[

Another note in the camping department, for your stay in Toronto, there is the Glen Rouge conservation area. Its a nice campground and actually where i did my first meetup and met Hallucigenia and Sonofzeal and others. Its a nice campground and not too expensive if your one who likes the camping. I would suggest booking ahead of time. http://www.trca.on.ca/GlenRouge/

Glen rouge is near where I live. It is in the rouge valley, and a 5 minute drive to the go train station, which can get you downtown in about 30 minutes.

[Wolf.star]

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/admiss-eng.html this might help with verifying requirements to enter the border (note: this isn't listed on this particular page, but if you below 18, you cannot cross the border unless you are with your parents or have a consent letter from a parent (both if they are divorced). It's unclear what the requirements are if you are emancipated).
This part is really IMPORTANT: There is also a visitor's visa you may need to apply for ahead of time (they said processing time takes a couple weeks) depending on the country you're from. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/tourist.asp this has more information aspects the first site didn't cover, including the visa information.

[The Evil Cashew]

Good catch wolf. i sorta forgot about the international guests that are not from the US. Americans can cross with just a passport.

The only border I have had problems with is the Detroit/Windsor one. It is the busiest in all Canada but they can be downright jerks sometimes. I am not sure if your crossing would be near any major event/holiday/ day where the guards might be extra testy but there can always be delays. But yes be honest, declare what you have to adn follow the rules and generally you dont have a problem.

There is a website you can check crossing times at too if you want to check what the wait time is on a particular day: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/bwt-taf/menu-eng.html

[Kagon]

Biggest holiday I can think of that's even close enough that I think it *may* be a factor Independence Day in the US - which is July 4th. I've never crossed the border though, so I can't say how that might impact things.

[marki]

Canada Day is July 1st if you will be in the area. If you are going between canada and Michigan I suggest the car ferry just north of Detroit. It goes through the reservation and was really nice and easy.

[Kagon]

Can you post more information on this car ferry? The only ferry near Detroit I'm finding easy information on seems to be truck only.

[marki]

Algonac Michigan is the town. It is a 5$ us ferry ride across the St. Clair River. Basically it gets you about mid way between Sarnia and Windsor. I normally use the Windsor tunnel as it is busy and normally painless. I've been in line there for an hour and I've had times where I was the only car crossing in. The plus side of Windsor is it directly links up to the 401 freeway and Sarnia connects with a 400 series road too. The 400 roads are the fast ones in Ontario. The ferry is back country roads and is not as direct.

[Zash]

The 400 series are usually, unless you are there during rush hour. Also, try to avoid the don valley parkway / 401 interchange. I have seen that backed up at 3 am. It snt always backed up, but it can be backed up at any time.

[JJButterworth]

The 400 series are usually, unless you are there during rush hour. Also, try to avoid the don valley parkway / 401 interchange. I have seen that backed up at 3 am. It snt always backed up, but it can be backed up at any time.

To bulid on that if you arrive in the Toronto area between 8am and 10 am or 4pm and 6pm it might be best to get off and have a meal or rest.

[marki]

Also if you have to be on the highway in Toronto I know it sounds counterintuitive but stay in the collector lanes not the express ones. The reason being that collector lanes have all exits but if a wreck happens you can get off...if you are in an express lane and a wreck happens you are SOL and really stuck. Toronto drivers are not the best so the chances of wrecks are high.

Also Canada between Montreal and Toronto has a very good rail service with a train almost every hour in each direction. You can take a train to Sarnia or Windsor also but they aren't as frequent. Once you get in the US the rail options are somewhat limited to what area you are in. Chicago has radial lines that do run into Michigan if you don't want to drive.

[JJButterworth]

Toronto drivers are not the best so the chances of wrecks are high.

I heard that. lol

Also if you have to be on the highway in Toronto I know it sounds counterintuitive but stay in the collector lanes not the express ones. The reason being that collector lanes have all exits but if a wreck happens you can get off...if you are in an express lane and a wreck happens you are SOL and really stuck. Toronto drivers are not the best so the chances of wrecks are high.

If you are coming from the west as most people will be the collectors/express lanes will not be a major issue. I would not worry unless you are not staying downtown. the 401 goes thru mid-town not down town.

[marki]

The ETR toll road ( I think 407 or 417 something like that) is sort of in the northern part of the town which might be faster if traffic is bad...it has no toll booths and sends you a bill in the mail.

Avoid the QEW it is sloooow.

[JJButterworth]

The ETR toll road ( I think 407 or 417 something like that) is sort of in the northern part of the town which might be faster if traffic is bad...it has no toll booths and sends you a bill in the mail.

Avoid the QEW it is sloooow.

It is the 407 and it is north of the 401 so again no an issue. As for the QEW/Gardnier it is the only highway into the downtown.

About the 407 if you do not have Ontario plates they will bill you but the ETR has no recourse to go after if you do not pay.

[Kagon]

Also Canada between Montreal and Toronto has a very good rail service with a train almost every hour in each direction. You can take a train to Sarnia or Windsor also but they aren't as frequent. Once you get in the US the rail options are somewhat limited to what area you are in. Chicago has radial lines that do run into Michigan if you don't want to drive.

Yeah, I looked at the train as a possibility already - to be surprised to find out that I could fly round trip for about what it would cost to take the train one way. So....yeah, not so much. It'll be drive, fly, or nothing for me.

[sunmarsh]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, however I think that it would be much more productive if one were to create a Google form for people to fill out. It would collect info on your location, whether you have transportation (willing to drive) or need it, whether you're taking some other form of transportation to a destination and require carpooling from that location etc. This information would be collected in a Google spreadsheet where one could more easily identify users who are in close geographic proximity and begin route planning/exchanging contact information. Lastly, you could even take it a step further and put all the locations into a Google map or Google Earth.

I also see people exchanging helpful information regarding crossing into Canada, tips on routes to take etc. This is all very helpful however I think it could easily get lost here in the thread. I would recommend a site like Trello to help organize all of this (it's basically a list-creating/project managing system that is browser based & very user friendly). I would be more than willing to set all of this up, I just feel a bit unqualified to do so considering I'm a new member to the forum and not the topic creator. If there is any interest in this though let me know.

[michaeld]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, however I think that it would be much more productive if one were to create a Google form for people to fill out. It would collect info on your location, whether you have transportation (willing to drive) or need it, whether you're taking some other form of transportation to a destination and require carpooling from that location etc. This information would be collected in a Google spreadsheet where one could more easily identify users who are in close geographic proximity and begin route planning/exchanging contact information. Lastly, you could even take it a step further and put all the locations into a Google map or Google Earth.

I also see people exchanging helpful information regarding crossing into Canada, tips on routes to take etc. This is all very helpful however I think it could easily get lost here in the thread. I would recommend a site like Trello to help organize all of this (it's basically a list-creating/project managing system that is browser based & very user friendly). I would be more than willing to set all of this up, I just feel a bit unqualified to do so considering I'm a new member to the forum and not the topic creator. If there is any interest in this though let me know.

This thread is really for preliminary discussion. Setting up something more systematic is a very good idea. If you'd be willing to do this, that'd be great!

[sunmarsh]

Phew! Took a while but it's all set up!

I've set up a survey using Google forms that you can take here. If you would like editing privileges to the form, michaeld, let me know.

Anyone can check the results of the survey by checking this spreadsheet. The survey results will automatically populate in the spreadsheet in real time. If you would like, you can File>Make a copy of the spreadsheet if you want to be able to edit/organize it yourself (note that personal copies will not auto-populate any new survey results). You are also able to Insert>Comment on the spreadsheet if you would like.

The second thing I've done is set up AVEN a collection of Trello boards for WorldPride 2014. You can access them here. You don't have to have a Trello account in order to view the boards, but you do need one in order to edit or add to them. The boards are very bare bones at the moment, but if you would like to assist and don't already have a Trello account, I would appreciate if you signed up via this link. Signing up via the referral link will give us access to cool board backgrounds and pretty stickers, which we totally need! ;P

Again, michaeld if you would like admin access to the Trello organization please let me know your Trello contact info and I will add you. I think I may have to personally add anyone who wants editing privileges to the organization and/or board, so if you would like to assist (and I do encourage this, as I'm unable to add all the info myself!) please send me a message or reply here.

[The Evil Cashew]

Algonac Michigan is the town. It is a 5$ us ferry ride across the St. Clair River. Basically it gets you about mid way between Sarnia and Windsor. I normally use the Windsor tunnel as it is busy and normally painless. I've been in line there for an hour and I've had times where I was the only car crossing in. The plus side of Windsor is it directly links up to the 401 freeway and Sarnia connects with a 400 series road too. The 400 roads are the fast ones in Ontario. The ferry is back country roads and is not as direct.

You are speaking of the Ferry in Sombra?

I found as i have crossed in all three of those locations that SArnia can be the easiest... but again.. its coming to a big canada weekend and thus security maybe thighter no matter where you go (though the Sombra Ferry is usually not very busy) i am nto sure what the town is called on the Michigan side...

The 402 (from sarnia that connects to the 401 in london) is not bad. its just a long and boring stretch of road. more boring than the 401. Its generally not a bad drive in summer though (just winter.)

[marki]

Yeah Algonac Michigan! Oh I fail to mention Canada is always a breeze to deal with. Their customs are quite nice and efficient. The US is the one that really takes a long time to reenter.

[LeChat]

(Below is an official, green, mod message.)

 

Hi, everyone. This event has finished.

So, it's being locked.

 

LeChat,

Welcome Lounge, Announcements, and Alternate Language moderator