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Puttin your asexuality where your mouth is???


bard of aven

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bard of aven

OK, so this has come up in a couple of threads lately, so I am giving it its own thread.

What is the relationship between being an asexual and giving or receiving oral sex? Until reading these recent posts, it seemed blatantly obvious to me that the answer to this question is "Nonexistent". To me, being an asexual means having no desire for any form genital interaction with another. And to me, oral-genital interaction is a genital interaction.

But I have read posts tonight on a couple of threads from community members who seem to feel, if I read them correctly, that giving and/or receiving oral sex is not incompatible with being asexual.

I suppose in a way it's all a matter of definition. It does not matter so much what your definition o f "is" is (and I have always admired the accidental metaphysical profundity of the former US President for raising that issue in public), as what your definition of "sex" is.

I am not raising this issue because I think I am right and someone else is wrong, or because I think I am asexual and someone else is not. My definition is just that: my definition. I would like to read what others think on this topic.

boa

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that former US president is a retard; if someone put the word "sex" after the word "oral," then it's sex. oral sex is one of the many [disgusting] sexual acts.

& anyone who has the balls to contest that belongs in the same group as clinton.

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VivreEstEsperer

I haven't seen any of those posts...and I read most of them...but then again I usually stay out of asexual relationships...but yeah...I think that if you have oral sex then you're definitely not asexual...

but then again it's also something I don't spend a lot of time thinking about...

Kate

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For me, asexuality is this:

No putting your genitals next to someone else's genitals.

Not putting your mouth around someone else's genitals (and vice verca).

Not touching anyone else's genitals or surrounding area (and vice verca).

No french kissing.

Okay, I suppose the last one could have exceptions, like when someone bumps into you accidentally and touches your butt, or if some assbag at a club tries things without your consent.

. . . If you're french and you kiss, does that mean you're frenchkissing? If so, then I've been frenchkissing my cats since I was 4 :lol:

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Well, there's more to sex than just reproduction; namely, there's the pleasure-at-a-biological-level aspect. It is possible for one to achieve orgasm via oral stimulation. Hence, I don't see much of a difference between all the different ways one can stimulate one's genitals. The end result is always the same; that is, it's all *related* to the "pleasure of sex."

I don't want to speak for any one else. But I have read threads here where people claim to be asexual; but, at the same time, they claim to be in a relationship where sex is important to their partner. Hence, they may perform sexual acts just for the sake of the other person.

Alas, I'm a virgin myself, so there's only so much I can say :)

Sean

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Moose-Alini

Uh nasty. Asexuality means no sex or sex related things. Including intercourse, oral or other genetal stmulation, or passionate kissing, or groping and whatnot. Goes both ways.

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assbag... LOL!!! :lol:

seriously, though. anyone who partakes in a sexual act is NOT asexual, i don't care what anyone says. this does NOT include rape, however, seeing as how that's done by force.

eh, you know what i mean.

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Eta Carinae
anyone who partakes in a sexual act is NOT asexual

I must disagree: anyone who partakes in a sexual act because of sexual desire is not (very) asexual. Asexuality is an orientation, it's rooted in sexual attraction -- or lack thereof -- and not actual actions. There are, after all, reasons for having sex aside from sexual desire: desire to please one's partner, desire for money or material things given in exchange for sex, curiosity, etc.

And the whole "oral sex isn't sex" business? Drives me up a frickin' wall. Oral sex (usually) involves sexual pleasure, sexual desire, and the genitals. Furthermore, in the case of, say, lesbians, oral sex is often the sex act. I don't see anybody claiming that two women who go down on each other aren't having sex, and I see no reason why the standard should change based on the gender of the participants. By any good definition of sex, oral sex is sex.

Rant off.

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guardianoftheblind
I must disagree: anyone who partakes in a sexual act because of sexual desire is not (very) asexual. Asexuality is an orientation, it's rooted in sexual attraction -- or lack thereof -- and not actual actions. There are, after all, reasons for having sex aside from sexual desire: desire to please one's partner, desire for money or material things given in exchange for sex, curiosity, etc.

I agree with this, and probably couldn't have said it better.

I consider mouth/genital contact the same as genital/genital contact. It may not be sex in the essence of the sexual activity that also involves procreation, but generally it results in similar sexual satisfaction that people experience from intercourse.

I apologize in advance for the following overgeneralization and possibly unflattering remarks, but this is an observation of mine regarding opinions on oral sex. I've found that many sexual people who argue that oral sex is not sex are doing so because they want sexual pleasure and satisfaction without some of the negative repercussions that come from sex. An example would be someone who has oral sex but still values virginity, they may use the arguement to defend that they are still a virgin because oral sex is not real sex (probably why oral sex is said to be popular among teens). Another example would be someone who has oral sex while they are in a relationship with another person, they may use the arguement to defend that they are not really cheating on their significant other. This doesn't make the arguement itself valid or invalid, it's just interesting to look at some people's motives.

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orderinchaos
Uh nasty. Asexuality means no sex or sex related things. Including intercourse, oral or other genetal stmulation, or passionate kissing, or groping and whatnot. Goes both ways.

isn't the latter end of that list going a *bit* far? we're not a religion...yet :)

guardian: I agree with your comments, esp re teens...

and general response: by and large I agree, but people do different things for different reasons.

(content warning applies) I've actually been in the situation myself of using a head job as part of intimate play, because it gets *them* off, although it is basically a neutral activity for me. I only do it for a few seconds though (any more than that *does* test my limits of repulsion) - I don't see it as any different to nipple-sucking or anything else really.

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Hmmm now this is interesting. I see 2 sides. i see an asexual stuck in a relationship with a sexual person and they do these sexual acts for them cause they love them. They do not enjoy doing it but it makes the person they love happy. That asexual is lying to themselves by living that life in my honest opinion.

The other side is that if you are asexual you do not do these things period. No french kissing and no sex and no oral sex and no touching etc because u DO NOT FEEL THE NEED. Nobody can force you to do these things (well outside rape anyway) and u coudl not possibly even see yourself ever doing such things.

An asexual does not feel the need to have sex yes but that is not all we are repelled by other sexual acts as well. We don't do it the catholc way (no offence to catholics but man they are like "Sorry can't have sex with you god will smite me down" "ok so how about a blowjob?" "oh yeah sure"). If you won't have sex but are doing other sexual acts then you cannot fit the description of an asexual. We don't do it ALL.

Masturbation is different. Some do it to relieve stress or to feel good. I think of it like free drugs for one. Other asexuals on this site masturbate but we woudl never engage in any sexual activities with another person. Giving a person oral sex is quite different.

Alex

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orderinchaos

while not taking away from the fact that many people do not feel the need to do these things, why would touching or kissing be seen as sexual? maybe it's the whole bipolar thing in my case, but *that* side of things comes totally naturally to me. it's the sex itself and the stuff immediately leading to it that makes me feel like I'm speaking a foreign language from a phrasebook and just accidentally ended up with some item of the local cuisine I really don't appreciate. I describe myself as asexual because I do not have a biological need for sexual acts ... but hugging, touching, wrestling, kissing etc is more comfortable for me than even some sexual people - maybe because there is no sexual/performance anxiety attached to it for me?

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(Damn, I just lost my whole post! I'm sure it's happened to everyone at some point, so you can all feel sympathy for me :))

I tend towards intimacy as well - it's natural for me, and like OIC and a few other people, I define intimacy a bit differently to just hugging.

What I'm seeing here, and had noticed before in my lurking days but it's very stark here, is that there does seem to be two very different views of what asexual and sexual behaviour is from people who identify as asexual. People draw the lines differently, based on their own experience and also their own biology. What is natural and normal for one person could be repulsive and positively heathen for the next.

Some people here view basically any further intimacy than hugging or hand-holding as sexual. Some people draw the line at a much more intimate point, partly due to their own experiences prior to identifying as asexual. While I've never had sex, I have enjoyed and chosen to do a number of things that some people here would find pretty weird.

I guess we've got to be careful not to become judgemental about others. I might think your views and practices and realities strange. You might find mine strange. But I agree with whoever said this isn't a religion. Our biology and psychology brought us here, not a conviction that sex and anything related to it is inherently evil. And while a discussion of this nature is excellent, a person not inclined to have sex who identifies as asexual should be taken as asexual for the purposes of the community. Some people identify as celibate because of their own experience, and that's fine too.

Sorry if I seem like I'm labouring the point, but I just get a tad uncomfy when people start talking about sexuality in terms of things which seem quite far removed from sex to me. I don't think anyone yet understands the theory as it's never been subjected to full scientific investigation, but maybe there are different "levels" of asexuality as well as simply types ...

(I should stress this was in reply to replies to the original post - I think the original post was a fair point and I'm in agreement with it.)

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Guys I am not against hugging and kissing I said "FRENCH KISSING" that i find is a sexual act and also Feeling Somebody Up that is also sexual. Huggign is not sexual neither is kissing. Hell i kiss my mother and my sister. But theris is no way in hell one can say to me that giving somebody a handjob or head is NOT a sexual act.

Alex

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Eta Carinae
Some people here view basically any further intimacy than hugging or hand-holding as sexual.

Yes. Some of us are doing that because those things are sexual acts. Anybody who says that there isn't a sexual component to heavy petting is off their flipping rocker. (Anyone who denies that there's a sexual component to making out is probably similarly divorced from reality, but since it's theoretically possible to inherently get no sexual pleasure out of the activity, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)

I guess we've got to be careful not to become judgemental about others.

While I agree that uberstrict guidelines for asexuality are a bad idea (though how I twitch when I encounter people who are mildly sexually attracted to others and take the label), you do have to draw a line somewhere. If you don't create some kind of limiting definition for the label "asexual," or create one and don't stick to it, the word loses its meaning. And then we're back where we started, with no name for ourselves, and no label to group behind.

So, yes, I may become unapologetically judgemental.

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bard of aven
But theris is no way in hell one can say to me that giving somebody a handjob or head is NOT a sexual act.

Well, they can say it, or in this case type it. But it really is largely a matter of definition and aculturation. Let's say asexuals are people who feel no desire to engage in sexual acts. What is a sexual act? An act that involves a sexual organ? Then what is a sexual organ? We need not name the usual candidates that we probably all agree on. Is the mouth a sexual organ? Is the hand? Does it depend on who is doing what to whom and why?

I'm a type 3 in Avenguys four-fold catagorization of asexuals. I find other guys stimulating, and I get aroused by them, always have and probably always will, but I have no desire whatever to do anything with them about that arousal. I am perfectly happy to handle that (sorry) myself. Some here would say that that puts me outside the definition of "asexual". If it's a behavior, probably so. But if, as Inkburrow points out, asexuality is an orientation, then I am certainly one, regardless of the effect others have on me and what I do about it with myself.

In the culture and age which I come from, oral/genital contact is an extremely sexual act. I could not consider myself an asexual if I felt an attraction to engaging in it, even if I never did. Others here probably feel the same way about masturbation, and would not consider themselves asexual if they felt attracted to doing that. Does that give them the right to say I am not an asexual? They may think so. I do not. So perhaps my feeling the way I do about oral sex does not give me the right to say that someone from a different time/place/culture/class/race/whatever nexus who gives or receives head but claims to be an asexual has no right to make such a claim. (Parse that!)

Perhaps sexualityand sexual acts and orientation, like gender, are not fixed concepts across all societies, ages, and classes of people. To me, oral sex is sex. Me wanting it or having it would make me something other than asexual. We each draw that line for ourselves and we draw it in many different places. Some exclude masturbation. Others, we find out lately, are ok with any activity that does not involve genital/genital contact, and as long as they are not attracted to/doing that, consider themselves asexual.

You do not get to tell me who I am (though you can try, and good luck to you). That's my job. I don't get to tell you who you are (though I have tried, and probably will again). That's your job. At some point, though, we are probably going to all start telling each other who does and does not get to use the term "asexual" in regard to themselves. Maybe we are already there. There are probably already more people in this community than there were in the early Christian church before they started doing it. What I want to suggest here is that we wait as long as we possibly can before, like good amoebas, we start subdividing and evolving into different, hostile groups.

And yes, my own thinking has evolved considerably in the few days since the posts that sparked this thread first appeared on the forum.

boa

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I agree with Inkburrow; the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Freedom of opinion can be a bit of a problem in this case. It is necessary (or else we would all be pretty closed minded :P) but as the site grows larger, it could start some massive flame wars of the more-asexual-than-thou kind.

I have to say this though, I love you guys! Never in my 6 years on the Internet have I seen a forum as civilized as this one. Congradulations :D

Coming up with the limits of asexuality is like cleaning a really dirty room. You don't want to do it, but you have to. If not, then come 1000+ members, there will be some big differences.

I have no idea what to do about it. I really do not like the idea of throwing people off the site because they don't fit the description :? I mean these forums can be for questionning, curious and friendly people too, right?

for starters, I think the asexuality types (the A B C D ones) should be official. I mean they are the ones everyone go by.

. . . Type D is the best :lol:

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bard of aven
I have no idea what to do about it. I really do not like the idea of throwing people off the site because they don't fit the description

Let's let AvenGuy decide. He's paying the bills.

boa

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Moose-Alini

Okay. Clarification on my stance. I agree with what everyone from Inkburrows last post on is saying. Asexuality is hard to defie surrently, as there seems to be a wide range. Some of this range I disagree with being asexual, bt thats just my oppinion. We are in no place to tell people what their orientation are. I think about what is and isn't asexual this way: I am a male. If I hug another guy, that isn't homosexual, if I hold his hand, still not homosexual, if I kiss him, its getting close to the border, if I french kiss him that is homosexual, if I give him a blowjob, that also is very homosexual. Take of the root 'homo' and you have my feelings on proper sexual/asexual behavior.

Im sorry to take a stand, but you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I'd also like to say, that this has been the most thoughtful, caring group of people on the internet. We have had disagreements before, but we always manage to keep it civil and keep the forum of discussion open. I hope it can always remain so.

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As to the original question: I agree with what others have said. Oral sex is sex.

As to the discussion about who is or isn't asexual: I understand asexuality as an orientation, not a behaviour. I've discussed this at length already in the thread "Who has had sex?" in the Asexual Relationships forum.

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I decided to jump on the little roller coaster here. But before I get into it, I have to agree with everyone on how great it is that there can be diff opinions and all that, and yet it continues to be civil. I've been on the internet for almost 9 years, and I've seen nothing but flame posts for anyone that even slightly disagrees. I was on a lesbian coming out board once and one girl just about wrote a porno story, and I thought I was rather polite in reminding her that the board was for helping people with their problems and that there were other boards that may have been more approperate for that sort of post. She got super pissed and flamed me every change she got, and a number of people backed her up and flamed me cause they liked all the sexual details. :evil:

Anyway, I also agree that oral sex is sex. The only people I think that seem to, perhaps, disagree with that are some heterosexuals, going with the excuses that someone else posted.

Down to business, let's see. I suppose I could see an asexual engaging in sexual acts, not because they are really that interested, but because they want to see their partner happy. Yeah, it's sexual, but the person still doesn't have an interest in the sexual componets, that's like an after thought. The goal and focus is their partner's happiness. Though, in my own personal opinion, the sexual stuff shouldn't be pushed because while the asexual is willing to compromise, the sexual partner should too.

That above wouldn't be from my case, I'm just trying to say that I can see it as a point of view. I believe that asexuality is an orientation, just like homo, hetero, bi, and pan-sexuals. It's not really an act thing (you can be sexual and yet a virgin, I think we can agree), but biology and a mind from (not a virgin and yet wasn't interested in the sex).

I think I may be a bit strange as to my asexuality. I can't quite figure out which catagory I fall under, so if anyone could help me out on that, please do. It makes it easier when trying to explain it to others. But I refer to myself as a Predominately Asexual Lesbian. What I mean by this is that I feel that romantic and sexual desires are linked (in regards to myself. I know others feel differently and I can see how that works for them). Meaning I have absolutely no sexual desire at all, no "horniness" in response to others or anything else, no wanted to "get laid" just for the sake of it. Yet when I feel a strong, romantic connect to someone (and it has to be really strong), I feel a sexual desire to be with them. Not really sex for the sake of sex, but more for another expression of love. Still, however, I wouldn't suddenly be like, "Wow, hormones!" all the time, on occassion maybe, but the other person would probably be the more usual instigator. That last part is in theory, however. Now on top of all that, since I think I am capable of some sort of sexual level, I have to throw in my romantic/attraction level, since they are bound (with me). I am almost never attracted to anyone, at all. I'm 21 and I've only had that strong emotional attraction to one person. Meaning that I've really only had that sexual attraction to one person. Which is why I consider myself predominately asexual. Sexual relations is an option, but so very rarely (00.01% of the time), it's almost non-existant. So, therefore, I relate much more to the people of this board then I do sexuals (whom I can't, for the life of me, understand :roll: , and whom I don't really want to understand).

A bit off topic from the first post, but I think still in there in regards to all it's little branches everyone went on. :wink:

Xendara~

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Xendara, what you've just described sounds like me!!

I have hormones and urges which will probably end me up in a relationship with another guy of an intimate but non sexual character. I know I'm capable of having sex, and probably could have it and enjoy it, but it's not something I need to do, and if I went my whole life without the full experience, I don't feel I'd be missing out on a lot.

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  • 1 month later...
Cate Perfect

I'm a cross between Boa and Xendara on this one in respect to the way my asexuality exhibits itself: I am very rarely drawn to another woman, but in those few and far between instances I deal with the feelings on my own, and know that any actual physical contact would put me off that woman permanently.

I also agree with the statement that there must be a line drawn somewhere, as one cannot say one is asexual and then run the gamut of physical expression with other people. A person cannot be too very indifferent to the idea and still participate. I do believe a person can experiment and then discover that he or she is truly not interested in physical contact, I also believe that a person can simply know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he or she has no interest in sex. Rather like the way some people are certain of their hetero or homo-sexuality before having any contact with either gender, whereas other people experiment with one or the other and realise their true nature.

Asexuality IS a sexuality, after all, and has it's guidelines, just like any other sexuality. If a woman called herself a lesbian, but primarily slept with men, wouldn't be a very good lesbian, now would she? And if she did it chiefly because she valued the guy as a friend, then that's almost worse, because it's not coming from a place of truth. So an asexual who says she is sleeping with her partner (or having any sort of genital contact) because she loves the person is really rather living a lie, not unlike a homosexual who pretends to be straight. They may not loathe doing something they have no interest in, but it's also not the complete truth, is it? Pardon my mixed metaphors, it's rather late here.

Cate

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  • 4 weeks later...

what an interesting topic... thought i'd throw in two cents... i loved xendara's post... very similar to me.

i would never EVER see a guy on the street and be like, wow, i gotta get in his pants. but because i am in love, if were to get married, afterwards i would most likely agree to sleep with my husband because he would want to, and it would make him happy. and if i marry who i plan on marrying, he has made me so happy to this point in time that i wouldn't mind that sacrifice for him.

at this point in time, i often explain to him that i would rather not have him do things to me. but because i want to see him happy, i do not mind, every once in a great while, making him happy.

and back to the very original topic, this is not refering to oral sex. i think that is disgusting and could not imagine myself doing that at this juncture in my life.

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To my mind oral sex is MORE intimate than genital intercourse. I mean, you can disconnect from what's going on below the waist, but my MOUTH, hey I eat with that! And I can't imagine allowing someone else to do that, either. It just seems unsanitary.

Cate

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eehh...I guess one could be asexual and physically have oral sex just like you can physically have sex..you could physically do it but whether or not it is something you want to do or something you would enjoy is another question...

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As a sexualy active asexual I have to say somthing here right?

Well here goes...Oral is not for me. I gave in to intercoiarse but when she brought up the whole oral thing, no way. It seems kinda nasty to me, not to mention I think I'd get board with it. I can compromise on the whole sex thing, no problem, but I have to have a say in what does and does not go on. I'll admit that I agreed to some things that I never thought I'd do, but oral, no thanks. I don't want to recieve and I sure don't want to give. And maybe some day down the road I may give in, to the giving ened, no point for me to receive, but if that ever happens, it's my problem and I'll have to deal with it. As for who's asexual and who's not because of their actions, I still have no sexual urgs, and I don't find sex pleasing in the lest bit, so don't be judging it if you're not a part of it. I know for an absolut fact that I'm asexual, even if it took Hetro actions to prove it to myself. All I can say is that if you're going to be involved witha sexual person, eventualy you will try it at least once, but does that make you sexual? I don't think so. So I have sex, yes, but do I want to? No. Do I enjoy the very act of sex? No. For me it's all about the person I'm with when I do it, if she's happy, so am I, even if I have to give into somthing that I'd rather not do because just spending that time with her makes it worth it.

So tell me everyone, am I sudden;y not asexual? Am I sexual because I am willing to give in? Should I leave AVEN since I pretty much betrayed you all? Well come on, tell me.

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Like our fellow sailor, you yam what you yam.

If a perosn identifies as straight but has a long affair with a person of their own gender, does that make them gay? Does it mean they weren't straight to begin with but bi or deluded? If a presurgical MTF is in love with a self-identified dyke boy who is bio-female, do the questions of gender and orientation mean anything at all? And if they don't there, do they anywhere? I say again: the language with which we traditionally discuss these maters is inadequate to the complexity of the reality it attempts to manipulate and symbolize.

It's up to you to determine and articualte who you are, and how you situate that self in the society in which you find yourself, and how you accoommadate the needs of those you love and let them accommodate your needs.

I don't imagine it is a lot of fun to be around a bunch of sailors and marines all the time to whom you have identified yourself as asexual if they now know you are behaving sexually with someone, regardless of your identity, reasons, or motives. I imagine you could get a lot of crap about that. But none from me.

If you decide to leave AVEN, many of us will miss you more so than we did during your long boot camp silence. It would be a less violent and less interesting place. And I hope you would always remember this place and these people fondly as a place that helped make you who you are. But again, you have to decide. And if you stay, I think you would not be the only self-identifed asexual in a sexual relationship. And that could be a valuable perspective for at least some of us too.

So eat yer damn spinach, and do what's right for you.

boa

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