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Stopping the Blame Game


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Well Doctors and so on said I just needed to relax but that was really about the pain. I expect they thought I would enjoy it if it was pain free....i am a lot more relaxed now I have no partner or sex life.....and no desire for either.

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If you don't feel something yourself it is utterly confusing. I have said before that in general banter (and totally generalising here) men complain they aren't getting enough, and women that their partners expect too much. How would someone who doesn't desire know what's a joke or what is real.

 

Maybe it's a UK thing to downplay but very few people are so open that it is clear.  After I had my lightbulb moment I had terrible trouble getting other female friends tell me what they thought, and all said eventually yeah they enjoyed sex. I feel sorry for my ex but I don't blame myself because all I knew was the situation made us miserable. By the time I knew I was asexual I had already left.

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I think the case of someone not thinking women enjoy sex is really common.  It was especially common decades ago for parents to discourage girls from sex.  Remember the old Victorian "lie back and think of england" when you had sex to get pregnant.  

 

For people with typical sexual desire, they quickly learn that sex IS enjoyable - and something they want.  For people who are asexual,  their experiences match what they were told when they were growing up, so they don't realize that not everyone feels the same way. 

 

I'm pretty sure my wife sees passionate scenes in movies and TV as unrealistic.  It doesn't occur to her that a romantic evening out would typically lead to sex for most couples. 

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I hear conversations about sex completely differently now. But I still don't think it would be clear to any one who isn't sexual but doesn't know it. The real eye opener is going from being told there is something wrong with you (implying something can be fixed) to feeling ok with just being yourself as an individual. But it was a genuine surprise to me when I realised other women actively wanted sex instead of maybe not experiencing pain or just enjoying it but probably not as much as their male partner. 

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I think education for younger people is better so it is more likely that they have more information and more acceptance than when I was young. And as you say people are a bit more forthright these days.

 

And it is portrayed positively in the media, TV and film. I used to believe it wasn't true. Now I do even though I know they are acting.

 

And there are many sexuals for whom the experience has been warped or affected by issues in their past. They may still avoid sex but for completely different reasons to asexuals. It's not black and white. It's very cloudy.

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56 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

@uhtred

 

I can see your point, but that situation doesn't quite chime with the number of posts from asexuals complaining about sex being portrayed relentless positively in the media.

There are a lot of people with different attitudes.  Some asexuals may be anti-sex. Others may just not want sex themselves. Some may not want sex, but feel pressured by the media to change.   Its easy for a *group* of people to have inconsistant views with each other.

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On 1/29/2018 at 8:14 PM, Ilovecake said:

I’m not sure how you can not know that you didn’t want to have sex with your partner at the point you married them. If I was in a relationship and sex was an expectation, I would leave. 

It's kind of easy to not know, honestly. I always wanted to kiss/cuddle, etc. I knew that. But, until things happened, I didn't know how I felt about the sexual stuff. I'm not repulsed. When it happened, I knew "I don't like this..." but then there was always a suggestion to try something else. On and on, "we'll find what you like"..

 

And even after I tried everything I was willing to and had decided "NO SEX STUFF EVER AGAIN" ... I got with someone and suddenly I was OK with sex stuff sometimes. But, it doesn't feel like much different from romantic attraction. Just when things advance to a certain point when kissing, it's OK for it to go further. It's never "OMG I WANT YOU". 

 

It's easy to confuse things if you're neither strongly for nor against it.

 

Edit: Also, Telecaster, I was 19 before I met a woman that did sex for more than just a duty to their spouse/partner. :P All my family was like "Yeah, women hate it, but we do it cause men require it..." 

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14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

19 isn't 52. But I take your general point.

True... but, I went to college and was in theater, which exposes you to erm, very free spirits. As in, threesomes in front of everyone at a party and lap dances on every guy at the bar types of people. 

 

My actual (female) friends don't like sex much. My (female) family doesn't like sex much. They see it as a chore to keep your man from cheating. So, it would have been easy to not get exposed to those that do, if I hadn't been around college and the get-high-at-work crowd that gave details of their sexual experiences at work while stoned.

 

And, in the 60s, there were a lot more conservative type people who found sex very taboo (also the free love movements and stuff around that era, but I'm sure there were ways to avoid it and stick to the conservative types), so doesn't really surprise me that someone could avoid hearing sex discussed in the positive from women. 

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Oh I am sure I have met lots of women who do, but no one who has said anything so directly. In fact one of my friends who is sexual and always has been refused to have sex for the first five years of her marriage. I think her family had completely repressed her with religious and old fashioned values.  She didn't admit to that till I told her I was asexual and she didn't believe me!!! That was some thing like 15 years into our friendship.

 

And I was a young adult in the early 80s when sexual politics was gaining ground and AIDS was feared, but to be honest most of the presumably sexual friends I have ever had are presumably just enjoying it and not talking about it. I am not really interested in their sex lives anyway.

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On 31/01/2018 at 9:58 PM, Telecaster68 said:

@uhtred

 

I can see your point, but that situation doesn't quite chime with the number of posts from asexuals complaining about sex being portrayed relentless positively in the media.

Precisely. I keep reading that it’s difficult to avoid sex. It’s in songs, films, tv, conversations in the local cafeteria, school and this is one of the ‘complaints’ regularly made here.

How does one not know?

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52 minutes ago, James121 said:

Precisely. I keep reading that it’s difficult to avoid sex. It’s in songs, films, tv, conversations in the local cafeteria, school and this is one of the ‘complaints’ regularly made here.

How does one not know?

It wasn't  always that way.  Go back 20-30 years and it was very different.  

 

I'm  kind of dismayed by commenters continuing to say "But how could you not know?"  It seems to me that when someone says "I didn't know", you should accept what they say.  

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

If I said I had no idea some people really like sport, and it could be really enjoyable, wouldn't you think it was a little....odd?

If you told me that when you grew up sports were not talked about that much, certainly not around your family and friends, and the only evidence you saw now for people liking sport was various media, and you knew that the media was simply trying to sell stuff, I wouldn't.  

 

But mainly, I wouldn't keep questioning you about why you thought things like that.  Because it's rude.  

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5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

If I said I had no idea some people really like sport, and it could be really enjoyable, wouldn't you think it was a little....odd?

If you liked doing things leading up to sports - getting on the team, wearing the uniform, going to the game... but actually playing was throwing you off and you didn't really like that part, wouldn't it confuse you a bit? Especially if everyone around you constantly told you it was perfectly normal and to just give it time, you'll grow to like it, or find a position you really like to play if you just keep trying them all? 

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Tele, why are you complaining about what people are saying?  They're describing their own experience.  Who are you to dispute that?   This is another case, I think, of the necessity to not keep beating against what you don't understand, and just accept that they're being sincere.  Otherwise, it increasingly sounds like you want them to "admit" something that you think they're guilty of.  

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21 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

People aren't saying they're confused, they're saying they're oblivious that anyone likes sport.

Well, that would fall under being around a lot of people who are like "Yeah, don't really like it either, but it's a requirement to be around people I like so go with it" :P Which, I've been around enough people who do that to totally get why it would be something you're oblivious to. My grandmother and mom both honestly think no woman can enjoy sex, it's just an act they put on to please men. 

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It's one thing to think, ok these people (aren't/)are able to buy into (as much of the/)more of the (PR/)bullshit than I am, they must (dislike/)like some of it more than me, that's all, this doesn't sound as (sensible/)silly to them, it doesn't (motivate/)alienate them because they are just more affected in such and such way by the peer pressure or cultural expectations/media trauma etc.... to think, I'm a little off (or a little more sane, whatever)...

 

It's another thing to begin to imagine, other people really are thinking/feeling/seeing/experiencing sex differently than me, it's place in their life is qualitatively different, it's like another world... this has great meaning and feeling for this sexual person beyond a bit of afterglow in the sack.... this really provides no real motivating/life-organizing force for this asexual... Some of what I thought was exaggeration, downplaying, cultural distortion, jokes, rarities, or lies, was a reasonably honest and accurate expression of their ordinary inner reality.... to think, no, we're really different on this, more than had been imagined...

 

We can begin to grasp that our inner worlds are different, and then lose sight again, tending again to think of other people's experiences/interpretations as more like our own.

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I am ok for discussion. Of course I knew it was odd, but as a true sceptic I assumed that what I saw in the media or whatever was exaggerated. I assumed that every individual experience was different. I still think that.  I just know where my experience fits better now.

 

For the record I am not interested in most sport either, but I love music and singing especially in choirs so in fact the community spirit of supporting sport makes more sense.

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7 hours ago, Sally said:

It wasn't  always that way.  Go back 20-30 years and it was very different.  

 

I'm  kind of dismayed by commenters continuing to say "But how could you not know?"  It seems to me that when someone says "I didn't know", you should accept what they say.  

I am sorry that you are dismayed about this particular opionion. It’s not personal and it’s not a deliberate attempt to frustrate you nor upset you. It’s just a view. To me it is so hard to understand. Maybe this would be comparable.

2 people get together identifying as asexual. They spend 5 years together and as they committed and compatible they get married.

they have a child together by way of artificial insemination. Once the child is 2, once the couples finances and lives are totally entangled with one another’s, one of them shows signs of sexual attraction, embracing the idea of having lots of sex and thus begins initiating sex with the other. When this becomes a problem and affects the marriage sufficiently the question is asked “you never wanted this before and I married you thinking we were compatible”.

The reply given is that “I didn’t know I was sexual like this”.

I’m not sure that this transformation would be given any support due to how confusing the change is.

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All I knew/assumed is that I had a very low libido and thought sex was a fact of life.  And my ex knew that before we got married and presumably accepted that or thought it would get better.

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15 minutes ago, James121 said:

I am sorry that you are dismayed about this particular opionion. It’s not personal and it’s not a deliberate attempt to frustrate you nor upset you. It’s just a view.

 

James, I said "I'm  kind of dismayed by commenters continuing to say "But how could you not know?"  It seems to me that when someone says "I didn't know", you should accept what they say. "   I meant you should accept that they are sincere in what they said.  You may not agree,  you may not understand, but it's rude to tell them they couldn't possibly mean what they said.   

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37 minutes ago, Sally said:

James, I said "I'm  kind of dismayed by commenters continuing to say "But how could you not know?"  It seems to me that when someone says "I didn't know", you should accept what they say. "   I meant you should accept that they are sincere in what they said.  You may not agree,  you may not understand, but it's rude to tell them they couldn't possibly mean what they said.   

Hi sally, I really don’t want to offend you. I will try to be very careful with my words and explain where my opinion comes from so that you understand.

I have seen various threads where people have identified as asexual after marriage and it has ultimately destroyed the marriage or it most likely will. 

There is a common theme of ‘I didn’t know’ or when I have posed some questions people have argued on behalf of someone else that they ‘’most likely didn’t realise or know’. It’s very commonly used to rationalise the situation. I didn’t engage you directly in this thread, I put my view across to telecaster to avoid you feeling that it was personal.

Of course there may well be instances where someone genuinely didn’t know and you may be entirely sincere. I’m not saying you aren’t. I’m saying that on the whole, I don’t understand ‘I didn’t know’.

There is another thread on this forum (I think it’s called ‘the talk’) where someone was with their partner for 10 years, and then got married and 3 years later they discovered they were asexual. They have said that sex makes them “sick”. Now I don’t understand why, if sex makes you sick, you don’t stop the relationship in the 10 year period before the wedding as opposed to what is going to happen now which is most likely a divorce and one parent not seeing their child much. But simply saying I didn’t know doesn’t wash as the OP admits she knew she was sickened by sex it seems she chose to say nothing. Until now, 3 years after marriage when children have arrived.

You have to at some stage, question people’s motivations in some cases.

Thats all. It’s not personal and not aimed at frustrating any individuals.

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17 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Sally/Serran

 

What you're describing isn't being oblivious to sex being important. It's not understanding why people are so bothered about it, so logically, you can't be oblivious to it. 

My mom and grandmother are not cases of not understanding. It's being oblivious that the way they feel about sex isn't how all women do. My grandmother raised my mom to think of sex as something just for men, women don't want/like it. And my mom tried to raise me that way. And ... I do feel it's not important, to me. But, I happened to meet some women that dispelled that myth. Not everyone meets someone that can show them a different perspective from what they grew up with. 

 

16 hours ago, James121 said:

 But simply saying I didn’t know doesn’t wash as the OP admits she knew she was sickened by sex it seems she chose to say nothing. Until now, 3 years after marriage when children have arrived.

 

Sex didn't make me feel negatively until several years into having to have it, when I didn't want to. Eventually, it did develop into repulsion, because of having to have it. I started out neutral to curious, cause everyone told me it was great and that I needed to try this or that to experience the greatness. My ex-spouse included in the people who I told that I had never been able to stay interested in a sexual relationship and who told me that the problem was I just hadn't found what I liked yet. So, it's entirely possible sex didn't make the person sick until 3 years in when they eventually just couldn't take it anymore and began to figure out why sex was this hard for them. 

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6 hours ago, Serran said:

Sex didn't make me feel negatively until several years into having to have it, when I didn't want to. Eventually, it did develop into repulsion, because of having to have it. I started out neutral to curious, cause everyone told me it was great and that I needed to try this or that to experience the greatness. My ex-spouse included in the people who I told that I had never been able to stay interested in a sexual relationship and who told me that the problem was I just hadn't found what I liked yet. So, it's entirely possible sex didn't make the person sick until 3 years in when they eventually just couldn't take it anymore and began to figure out why sex was this hard for them. 

Ok....so this is really the first explanation that makes sense and I can now see how in some cases, someone may not know. I do believe in other instances, people have known or suspected before marriage takes place and not acted or disclosed the issue which is something that irritates me greatly.

In the various accounts that I have read Aven, everyone has omitted that particular detail which only leads me to conclude they they knew as it would seem very reasonable for it to have been included as part of their story. Maybe I am just a little cynical though.

 

So in your situation, I do have a question. I know that rape victims can completely shut off sexually after the tragic event.  I would imagine that their negative sexual experience and mental trauma has a massive mental impact but I can’t explain the exact science behind it.

Do you think, that given your initial curiosity, which led to repeated consensual but unwanted and therefore negative sex, your view/mindset on sex was adversely impacted? 

What I’m referring to is that your journey has been through curiosity to sexually active and eventually to repulsion.

 

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I didn't know there was such a thing as asexuality till 2 years ago. Sure I knew I wasn't particularly interested but that was something well known by every sexual partner from the early days of relationships. I didn't understand why.

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I've thought "ok, this is different for me, but maybe it's not that far off, maybe I'll grow into it, maybe it will change" -- it's not obvious whether something is long-standing issue or not, it's not obvious that something can't be worked through.  So by taking a positive can-do attitude, one figures things can work out.  The future isn't certain.  And sometimes we fine, well, the trend really is long-lasting, and over time it's just become clearer that I'm quite a bit different on this and there are incompatibilities I'd have with a lot of people.

 

Example, dating.  The first date might be scary.  Ok, but some people have anxiety issues.  Ok, so the second and third are just as bad.  Years later, no progress.  Eventually you just say, hey, I'm fighting other battles and seeming to make progress, but not on this one, beating head against wall here, it's not just some social anxiety to work through with motivation and some techniques and patience, I'm also aromantic so I lack a drive to want to date/find a partner in the first place, making it that much harder to act like a romantic person on a date or to remember to find time to identify/nurture budding possibilities.

 

Example, anxious sex in the back seat of a car, ok condom on backwards never finished.  Ok, girlfriend later has parents away and things ready, but piano lessons overlap, can't make it, later it's a relief to be done with the relationship.  Ok depression meds working ok and forcing self to look for sexual outlets, it's uncomfortable, but sexual release is happening some of it feels good, this is progress?  But then an equilibrium is found, and there is more peace and self-acceptance, and sex is being ignored.  And so what was once a problem of 'awkward guy learning to deal with sex' becomes 'stressed out guy deciding to reduce stress by not letting sex bring more stress into life' becomes 'who me, sexual?'

 

Yes years ago I understood my 'temperament' was a bit awkward with flirting/dating/sex/some social situations, but I also figured within my temperament I could make some progress and it would be worth it.  Get old and it get's old, though.  Maybe the 'temperament' is a bit more resistant to change than thought years ago when there were fears of not being like others.  Without the fears/peer pressures, it becomes clearer a LOT of time and energy could be spent on these projects to fit in with others, with very little dubiously positive result.

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On 2/6/2018 at 1:32 AM, James121 said:

Hi sally, I really don’t want to offend you. I will try to be very careful with my words and explain where my opinion comes from so that you understand.

I have seen various threads where people have identified as asexual after marriage and it has ultimately destroyed the marriage or it most likely will. 

There is a common theme of ‘I didn’t know’ or when I have posed some questions people have argued on behalf of someone else that they ‘’most likely didn’t realise or know’. It’s very commonly used to rationalise the situation. I didn’t engage you directly in this thread, I put my view across to telecaster to avoid you feeling that it was personal.

Of course there may well be instances where someone genuinely didn’t know and you may be entirely sincere. I’m not saying you aren’t. I’m saying that on the whole, I don’t understand ‘I didn’t know’.

There is another thread on this forum (I think it’s called ‘the talk’) where someone was with their partner for 10 years, and then got married and 3 years later they discovered they were asexual. They have said that sex makes them “sick”. Now I don’t understand why, if sex makes you sick, you don’t stop the relationship in the 10 year period before the wedding as opposed to what is going to happen now which is most likely a divorce and one parent not seeing their child much. But simply saying I didn’t know doesn’t wash as the OP admits she knew she was sickened by sex it seems she chose to say nothing. Until now, 3 years after marriage when children have arrived.

You have to at some stage, question people’s motivations in some cases.

Thats all. It’s not personal and not aimed at frustrating any individuals.

James, for the second (or third) time, I didn't take this personally. 

 

But I will say again:  when people tell you something -- ANYONE, not any specific person -- you may not understand what they're telling you, and you may not understand why they're saying it.  But you don't really need to understand it.  What you DO  need to do is respect that they are saying it about themselves and their lives.   Because you have no knowledge of them or their lives but what they say. 

 

I hope you got that, because I don't know  how many different ways I can say it.    

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

You don't however need to take it at face value of it seems at odds with common sense. It's perfectly fair to question what they're saying to try to understand it better.

Ask questions to understand it better, yes.  And then when you get answers, let it go.  Because continuing to question whether it's really the case is just rude.   

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