Asexuality in New Testament (Bible)

[Rabger]

That is an argument I have used more than once when discussing reasons for supporting civil unions. I'm not sure there is any case in history where gays have been legally married - or recognized. Do you know what the instances are of societies where two equal same gendered partners were in a life long committed relationship? I did some mild research on it a while ago but couldn't find too much. Mostly it seemed gay relationships were just about sex, or they were between two very unequal partners... usually an older man/scholar/warrior and a young man or boy/student/page. I didn't find much on lesbians in history though...

Well, it's not marriage, but in the ancient Greek city of Sparta, which happened to have one of the strongest armies of the time, encouraged it's soldiers to have sex. It was considered a way to bond them together, and it was thought that the bond of love between them would create a stronger fighting force. Also, other Greek men (all concenting adults) believed that the love between 2 men was far superior to that of a man and a woman, since they believed women to be inferior. Still, the purpose of marriage itself even in this pro-homo society was purely for reproductive's sake. At times the men would only come home for sex, and then leave. So, in this instance, hetero-marriage was only about sex, not homo.

On to marriage, shall we? It's not marriage persay, but its a start: The Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten and his lover Smenkhkare were the first historically documented male couple in history

"There are at least 33 different cultures in Africa (From the Yoruba in Northern Nigeria and the Barenda of the Northern Transvaal, to the Kamba of East Africa) where marriages between women are recognized. Academics are quick to deny that lesbianism has any role in such arrangements despite considerable evidence to the contrary.

One study on homosexuality in Africa indicates that of 78 cultures, with little contact with Western values, 49 approved of or at least tolerated homosexuality. This may indicate that homophobia (NOT homosexuality) is a Western colonial import." --Out in the World: Gay and Lesbian Life From Buenos Aires to Bangkok by Neil Miller

“A judge in the state of Swaziland (South Africa) has ruled that a marriage between two women is valid. According to Swazi tradition, two women can lawfully contract a marriage as long as the parents of both women consent, and the woman who pays the “bride-price” (lobola) can delegate a man to father children on her behalf. The judgment confirming the legality of this ancient practice was issued following a trial in which Thalita Mngomezulu accused a man of defrauding her of four cows. She gave evidence that the cattle had been given as lobola for the woman she wished to marry.” -- Lesbian Connection, May 1993

“Nothing is truly intimate outside of ritual”, says Sobanfu Somé. Sexuality, including woman-to-woman sexuality, is so integrated into the spiritual life of the Dagarat that her people have no word to specify “lesbian” or even “sex”....Like many other Africans, the women of Dagara do not sleep with their men. “Women need to sleep together, to be together to empower each other...then if they meet with men, there is no imbalance.”

Tribal women not only sleep and live together, they join together for group rituals. “We go to a cave or bush and do rituals to build male energy. We have a female father who gives us male energy. She looks like a male. Anything we feel or experience that we haven't dealt with is expressed.” This women's group ritual balances their male/female energy. “It is so we are not completely male or female.”

Dagarat women believe that once you've made love with your life partner in this circle, it is extremely dangerous for her to be intimate with another woman. If you break the circle, you bring in alien energy. Your partner will die. The diviner in our village comes in and says “You murdered her”...Sobanfu also says women must look at sex as a journey. “You are traveling to a place not known by you or your partner. Only your ancestors know. When two people merge, your genealogy becomes a participant in what's going on.” -- “ The Lesbian Spirit”, Girlfriends Magazine, July 1994

Also, there was a common thing concerning Native American tribes, especially among those in the Plains. It concerns a "man/women" (usually biologically male, though I can't remember the correct term), and this person would marry a male member of the tribe. While it wasn't seen as homosexual, it wasn't seen as heterosexual either. While the "man/woman" often lived and acted in the female role, s/he was seen as neither sex and was thought to have great spiritual power. These unions between the "man/woman" and a male were recognized. This also happened, though to a lesser extent, with biological female "man/woman," who would take a wife.

Just a little history lesson. I'm sure there is more out there, but that's all I know off the top of my head. :)

[Orbit]

That was just off the top of your head?? Awesome memory. Thanks for the info! when I looked things up, I had found a bit about the Greek relationships, but it sounded at that point that they were mainly the older teachers with their students.

I really enjoyed "Alexander" and was curious about the philosophy he was taught as a boy... just as you said - the love between two men is better than relationships between men and women. Not sure I agree that is the case in every situation... but I can understand how a culture might function that way.

hawke

[Rabger]

That was just off the top of your head?? Awesome memory.

Okay, so I exaggerated a bit. The native american thing was off the top of my head, which is why I couldn't remember the word. The rest, I meant I knew a website that had all that on it, off the top of my head. You know, without looking more info up :) I'm lazy. My memory is actually quite terrible. But when you get kicked in the head a half dozen times, what do you expect?

[CollegeGut]

just thought i'd chime in here, as i'm about to start my M.A. in Biblical Studies

1 Corinthians 7: 1-9 -

Now, to the unmarried and to the widows I say that it would be better for you to continue to live alone as I do.

Actually, most biblical scholars say that paul's statement here reflects an acclerated apocalyptic, i.e., he was expecting the end of the world to come within his lifetime, and so why bother getting married.

Paul wrote in the 50s-60s AD, a time when many of Jesus' original first-hand followers were still alive. they were waiting for his second coming to happen within their lifetime. when a large number of these followers started dying without any second coming, many christian communities began to chronicle the life and teachings of christ so as to have a permanent record of Jesus to be passed on after they died. these chronicles are the gospels which we find in the new testament, starting with Mark (ca. 65 AD) through to John (ca. 100 AD). to this end, the later the writing, the less immediate the apocalyptic message.

thus, christians marry today despite paul's advice, as (for the most part) they no longer believe in an imminent second coming.

sex, on the other hand, is a hangup for catholics thanks in large part to augustine, who adopted a greek dualistic philosophy of matter-evil and spirit-good. this philosophy became entrenched in catholic doctrine to the present day.

as for whether paul is asexual...maybe at the time of his writing he was celibate, but prior to his conversion, he was a self-proclaimed sinner, which most scholars would conclude probably included sexual activity.

[C. J.]

Paul was orignally a sinner who zealously persecuted Jesus and his followers. It is better to not make up things we cannot see here or assume Paul bedded with harlots, because we simply dont know. The substance of his letter is the focus. Paul lived the rest of his days serving Christ as a slave. He lived in fear of God, for he experienced first hand what God can do. He was blinded for 3 days and made to humble himself before those he sought to put in prison and kill in order to regain his sight. Jesus game him comands to follow, which Paul did the rest of his life out of fear. Whether he was celibate, asexual or whatever is a moot point. We simply dont know and shouldnt assume. Also in response to another post... the bible says - there is nothing new under the sun. Which means... anything you think is new today, isnt. Things happening now were happening way back when as well.

[winter]

the bible says - there is nothing new under the sun. Which means... anything you think is new today, isnt. Things happening now were happening way back when as well.

that makes me think of einstein's [i think it was einstein, at least] theory of time, a concept revisited in vonnegut's slaughterhouse five. the basic idea being that everything that is happening has already happened, has always happened, and will continue to happen eternally (there being no end to time, thus what will happen to us in this particular ripple has already happened and always will happen, etc.)