Sexual Compromise & Support

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mountain House said:

You know that you need to support your claim with evidence.  Seems quite a claim.

 

Stds and the elderly

https://health.bracknell-forest.gov.uk/jsna/ageing-well-2/keeping-well/sexual-health-oa/

This data is dated 2016 it was given to me by a therapist who insisted that beyond a certain age sex was dormant, not very satisfactory etc and that's why she didn't take people on when they were past a certain age. Make what you will of it.

I'm no statistician and I think you got the gist of what I was saying.

[ryn2]

I’d have to guess what happens over time in longstanding relationships depends on the people (their health, their libidos, their feelings about aging) and the relationships (compatibility, feelings for one another, why they’re there)… and therefore varies pretty widely.  I’d be surprised if either end of the scale (as much sex as ever, no sex at all) represented the majority.  No real science behind that, though.

[Mountain House]

1 hour ago, Astutusdomina said:

I'm no statistician and I think you got the gist of what I was saying.

I get the gist of what you were trying to say and I get why you might want to believe it.  The document doesn't support your assertion.  The first two paragraphs set that tone.

 

1 hour ago, Astutusdomina said:

Make what you will of it.

Okay, I will.  I think this is where the idea was planted for you.  I think that this therapist did you a disservice by exposing their bias.  "Stop thinking about sex. Don't worry about sex. Couples eventually quit. You're just going to end up celibate anyway," doesn't seem like a great message to me.

 

But none of this is actually relevant.  We aren't talking about "the average". We are individuals. Adult human individuals, and we get to make up our own minds.

 

Here's a book suggestion for you: Sex by Design by Betty Dodson

 

Imagine how we put ourselves in boxes just by what we believe to be true, whether it is or not.

 

You claimed, "You know most couples stop having sex at a certain age."

 

That's a pretty big claim and an idea that I think is detrimental.  "most" ???  "certain age" ???

 

Oh, and it ruffles my feathers when someone makes a claim like this and start with "You know...".  Triggers my inner science guy.

[Guest]

Ah wise one, comments to encourage ongoing discourse. Well done.

 

It's irrelevant what I believe and I don't want to convince you otherwise re my or your ideas on how much sex or not people are having age by age.

What qualifies as sex and what doesn't.

Why there are so many sex pills, sex therapists etc.

What really nags me on this point is my reading of other material which I won't mention as I don't have the list at hand.

 

As to my wording : point taken you're right. Leave aside the box theory please. 

 

As to the therapist. Seeing we have nothing to fix I'm not sure she did a diservice, unfortunately we've had many (actually 4 - thought you'd appreciate the numbers) of those. Completely useless. That is why it's paramount that asexuality becomes Visible. I'd be interested in any  ongoing discourse on this particular point.

 

Thanks for the book suggestion. I'm currently reading What is Sex by Alenka Zupancic

[Sally]

On 2/11/2022 at 8:01 AM, Ceebs. said:

Do most (not some, but genuinely most) couples completely stop having sex? Like before they've reached a state where it's genuinely not possible due to being Really Properly Old And Infirm? Can't fathom why one would want to stop entirely.

No, they don't.  And it's not a matter of being to old to perform; the male hormone tends to diminish as men grow older, just as estrogen does in women; thus men may have less urge to have sex.  But sex does not stop happening simply because of age; that's a stereotype held by young people (because they don't really want to think about their parents/grandparents having sex).  

[Ceebs]

9 minutes ago, Sally said:

No, they don't.  And it's not a matter of being to old to perform; the male hormone tends to diminish as men grow older, just as estrogen does; thus men may have less urge to have sex.  But sex does not simply stop happening simply because of age; that's a stereotype held by young people (because they don't really want to think about their parents/grandparents having sex).  

Ha yeah, my mum and dad are going to be 78 and 82 later this year, respectively (together since 1967, married since '76)... and nope, I sure don't want to think about them doing the deed. But if they do, I hope they're doing it happily. 😅

 

But yeah, I've always assumed many people keep having sex as long as they can and as long as they want it and still desire and love each other. It's a way to feel close. Why wouldn't they?

[Guest]

https://www.aarp.org/relationships/love-sex/info-05-2010/2009-aarp-sex-survey.html

Sorry guys/gals for misleading you. Hope the article helps.

[Ceebs]

Damn, 64% of Americans aged 45 and older have never discussed their sexual fantasies with their partners? Jeez. Like... how... what?! I can't imagine not talking about that unless the relationship was crap. And I assume a full 64% don't think their relationships are crap.

[ryn2]

My sexual fantasies were never about my partner so discussing them would have been hella awkward.

[Sally]

3 hours ago, Ceebs. said:

Damn, 64% of Americans aged 45 and older have never discussed their sexual fantasies with their partners? Jeez. Like... how... what?! I can't imagine not talking about that unless the relationship was crap. And I assume a full 64% don't think their relationships are crap.

Gee, no one's ever asked me and I'm over 45.   Just perhaps that 64% figure is not believable?  Maybe it's actually 64% of Americans aged 45 and older who were surveyed?  In which case that's a different thing entirely.  

[Ceebs]

4 hours ago, Sally said:

Just perhaps that 64% figure is not believable?

Yeah that's the bit that surprises me. Nearly two thirds don't talk about that with their partner...? Seems like a high percentage.

 

Then again, it doesn't say how they're defining sexual fantasies for the purposes of that survey. I'm assuming it means something along the lines of 'Here are things that turn me on, some or all of which I might like to incorporate into our sex life if they're things you'd be into as well'.

 

That just seems like an important part of communication about sex to me. I've been in a relationship where that wasn't talked about, so I know that happens, but the 64% is surprising.

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Ceebs. said:

Then again, it doesn't say how they're defining sexual fantasies for the purposes of that survey. I'm assuming it means something along the lines of 'Here are things that turn me on, some or all of which I might like to incorporate into our sex life if they're things you'd be into as well'.

Ah, okay.  For my comment above I took it to mean “things you fantasize about while, e.g., masturbating,” so more like sex daydreams?  Not so much “this would be fun to try.”

[ryn2]

Like wiki says:  “A sexual fantasy or erotic fantasy is a mental image or pattern of thought that stirs a person's sexuality and can create or enhance sexual arousal.”

[Ceebs]

Just now, ryn2 said:

Ah, okay.  For my comment above I took it to mean “things you fantasize about while, e.g., masturbating,” so more like sex daydreams?  Not so much “this would be fun to try.”

I literally just saw your comment a few mins ago haha, somehow missed it.

 

Yeah, if you're not thinking about anything that might be relevant to the actual connection with your partner, I can see not sharing it. Although... depending on how open a couple was about that sort of stuff, some might for sure.

 

Personally I don't really have any fantasies that are particularly detached from reality, so there's that. It's all stuff that I'd want to discuss and do. I can't think of a single thing I wouldn't share, but then talking about sex for us is about as loaded or uncomfortable as discussing the weather (which is obviously to say it's neither loaded nor uncomfortable lol) and we do it all the time. I never in a million years would've talked openly about anything sexual much at all with my ex-husband, though. Acknowledging my sexuality with him made just me feel deeply embarrassed and gross. 

[Ceebs]

@ryn2 This reminds me of the multiple previous exchanges we've had about the general concept of, like... imaginary/fictional stuff vs. more reality based things. As you know, I'm not a person who daydreams about things that are too far removed from reality. I'm a near-constant overthinker for sure, and intensely emotional, so I'm always kind of lost in my head thinking or feeling one thing or another, but I don't really like things that aren't real or couldn't be real. It's like my brain doesn't see a point in getting emotionally invested. So I don't like sci-fi and fantasy books/films, I don't care about fanfic because the only thing that matters to me is what the original author has written, I don't fantasise about worlds or concepts that don't exist, etc. (Fictional stories are fine, but they have to be stories that could totally be real.) Somehow it feels tied to my need for everything to be Very Very Authentic? 
 

I am rambling now. 🙃

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Ceebs. said:

the general concept of, like... imaginary/fictional stuff vs. more reality based

Yes, when I was reading your explanation I thought about that too.  

 

For me it’s more that… a lot of my sexual fantasies are NOT things I would want to do or experience in real life (not because of the acts themselves, but more the circumstances) and, to the extent they featured real people I knew in some other way, those people were not my partner.  I’m sure there are partners out there who might enjoy hearing things like that but the impression I got from my then-partner was that he was expecting to hear things I fantasized about doing with him.

 

In the broader fiction sense I’m good with elements that don’t necessarily exist in our reality - types of magic, different planets, races, cultures - as long as the world-building is internally consistent.  So, I’m more concerned about realistic than real?  Something like that. 

[Mountain House]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:33 PM, Astutusdomina said:

Leave aside the box theory please. 

I don't know.  I believe it to be a wonderful analog for discussion here.  For example, it is normal and common for newbies here to look at their situation, their box, and look for the key on the outside.  Ex. my partner is asexual and I am unhappy.

 

I used a box for years in my conversation with my wife.  I blamed her for keeping my sexuality locked up and if she would just ... I don't even know ... I would be happier.  I remember when I realized that the box was my own construct.  She had nothing to do with it and really could do nothing to free me.  I had to do that for myself.

 

You have to open your box for yourself.  You know everything you need to know about your husband; he loves you, he doesn't want sex.  Putting a label on that won't change it.  Reading books about it won't change it.  It's seems pretty solid.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 11:33 PM, Astutusdomina said:

I'm currently reading What is Sex by Alenka Zupancic

Oh no no no.  Sure that can help with increasing one's sexual intelligence but it isn't even close to what Betty writes about.  LOL  Read it, you'll see.

And hey, here's a book titled Sexual intelligence.  It's okay.  Basically, sex is whatever a couple says it is.

 

 And those crazy old people...

[Guest]

Thanks will read. I hope it's not along the same lines as all those 5 types of intelligence: visual, emotional and so on....

As to the box, I wonder if I can be so easily contained. I agree with the analog of feeling trapped, but believe me when I say finding out about asexuality has already broken the chains.

Oh as to oldies I'm one of those myself although in many romance languages we're all just girls and boys till we've got one foot in the grave.

[Mountain House]

1 hour ago, Astutusdomina said:

Thanks will read. I hope it's not along the same lines as all those 5 types of intelligence: visual, emotional and so on....

Nah, not worth the read.  I gave you the gist:  sex is whatever a couple says it is.

 

Read Betty's book.  😉 Sex by Design

 

1 hour ago, Astutusdomina said:

but believe me when I say finding out about asexuality has already broken the chains.

Been there.  No it hasn't.  You are still in it.  It's your box.

 

You've said no to polyamory.  Does that include all ENM, or even just NM?  If so, you have celibacy and divorce left.  If you imagine the stages of grief, you leave your box when you accept and move forward.

[BloodyBlood]

well for me , an allosexual and the person who really need to do sex rps { like in chat not in real life } and my girlfriend is asexual , i took open relationship , i have never had any sex texts/rp with my girlfriend but instead do those stuff with my another partner , and they both aware that i have 1 girlfriend and 2 boy friend, { 1 girlfriend bestie that is asexual and two boyfriend that are allosexual :I } and everything is goes well, tbh im happy i have all of them, i just took open relationship { i have high libido so i had to let it out somehow since i cant have sex in real life i do it with rp chat online 😛 } thats all thx for readding have lovely day ❤️ 

[Zman419]

I read through pretty much this entire thread and wasnt able to find anything to help deal with the sex disparity in my relationship. Now everything feels as hopeless as ever :(.

[SusannaC]

@Zman419 sorry you’re despairing.  
Are you having trouble accepting the reality of your situation or is your struggle more so that no options you’ve seen here sound agreeable?  
I have experienced despair as well over the years and am sorry for anyone in a mixed orientation relationship who feels the loss.  
Perhaps finding a trusted friend or therapist will help?  Talking to an outside party can be helpful….In my experience.  

You aren’t alone 
 

[SusannaC]

@Zman419

I was reading some of your recent posts and see you’ve lived thru years of celibate relationship.  Obviously, this isn’t working- as it hasn’t for so many of us- and there is no magic available to make it otherwise.  
This needs to be about you- your peace of mind, your existence, your life.  Options can and should be evaluated.  I tell myself I MUST face them- because existence in a celibate state isn’t doable anymore.  I fail…..I accept that I fail as a celibate and thus, there is no choice left but to face those other options.

I guess what I’m trying to suggest to you is that this isn’t all about the “we” in your relationship now; it’s about what YOU will do going forward for your own emotional well being.

[Traveler40]

12 hours ago, Zman419 said:

I read through pretty much this entire thread and wasnt able to find anything to help deal with the sex disparity in my relationship. Now everything feels as hopeless as ever :(.

At this rate, you’ll still be looking for the magic answer in 20 years. That’s ok and a choice. 
 

You have all the answers you need, but refuse to accept them. It sucks. Been there. You are with a woman who has a different orientation than yourself. Live it or leave it.
 

It will never get easier than now, but only increasingly harder. Make good choices.

[Zman419]

20 hours ago, SusannaC said:

Are you having trouble accepting the reality of your situation or is your struggle more so that no options you’ve seen here sound agreeable?

Definitely the latter. It would be amazing if we could find a way to work out a sexual compromise, but if being touched that way leads to anxiety that doesnt really leave a whole lot of compromise options on the table. We've discussed thinking about an open relationship but she says that me being with other people like that would be extremely hard for her. I so desprately want there to be a solution for us, i spend so much time reading thread after thread on this issue, hoping i find someone who weighs in with some kind of super specific solution that worked for them that would work for us.

 

20 hours ago, SusannaC said:

Perhaps finding a trusted friend or therapist will help?

Im very open with this with some of my friends. They arent really sure what to do either, other than hope we figure something out.

 

Im just so taken by this person that not finding a way to bridge this gap feels just as unbearable as living with celibacy

[SusannaC]

1 hour ago, Zman419 said:

Definitely the latter. It would be amazing if we could find a way to work out a sexual compromise, but if being touched that way leads to anxiety that doesnt really leave a whole lot of compromise options on the table. We've discussed thinking about an open relationship but she says that me being with other people like that would be extremely hard for her. I so desprately want there to be a solution for us, i spend so much time reading thread after thread on this issue, hoping i find someone who weighs in with some kind of super specific solution that worked for them that would work for us.

 

Im very open with this with some of my friends. They arent really sure what to do either, other than hope we figure something out.

 

Im just so taken by this person that not finding a way to bridge this gap feels just as unbearable as living with celibacy

You just answered part of it.  Celibacy is unbearable.  Not finding a way is unbearable.  These are facts that  you know.   
ENM would “be extremely hard for her”…… okay……. The situation as it exists now is “hard” for you and has been for….. how many years? Has celibacy been a LITTLE bit hard or “extremely hard”?   Change from the way it stands now will not occur on its own..YOU should be your OWN ADVOCATE.  You need a workable real solution.    You know the possible choices available to you -yet guilt, fear, maybe even complacency, stand in the way?

Talking to friends may help- but so many people don’t really understand the total picture of a sexually mismatched marriage and are afraid to offer advice.  You will not find another solution that hasn’t already been discussed in your readings here.  
Best wishes and stay strong
 

[ryn2]

18 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

You will not find another solution that hasn’t already been discussed in your readings here.

This.  You certainly will find people on here who are happy enough with the arrangements they’ve made (although, arguably, happy folks are probably less likely to be posting here at all, so they may be underrepresented), but that’s not because they have found some innovative approach; it’s because one or more of the short list of options works for them and their partner(s).

[Zman419]

23 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

ENM would “be extremely hard for her”…… okay……. The situation as it exists now is “hard” for you and has been for….. how many years

If we tried ENM wouldnt all we really be doing is switching up who feels uncomfortable with aspects of the realtionship? Some people just arent built for open relationships 

 

25 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

Has celibacy been a LITTLE bit hard or “extremely hard”?

Definitely extremely hard.

 

26 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

Change from the way it stands now will not occur on its own..YOU should be your OWN ADVOCATE.

I need to be better at this. That being said, if shes uncomfortable with sexual touch shes uncomfortable with sexual touch. If shes uncomfortable with ENM then shes uncomfortable with ENM. Theres no amount of advocating for myself that will lead to her feeling more comfortable with these thing. All that could happen is shed let these things happen dispite her discomfort with it, which isnt good.

[Zman419]

8 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

This.  You certainly will find people on here who are happy enough with the arrangements they’ve made (although, arguably, happy folks are probably less likely to be posting here at all, so they may be underrepresented), but that’s not because they have found some innovative approach; it’s because one or more of the short list of options works for them and their partner(s).

Thats true. All the solutions possible boil down to Celibacy, compromise, open relationship or break up. I guess when i say im hoping for some kind of creative solution i mean im hoping for a form of comprpmise i just havent thought up yet.

[ryn2]

Compromise (or whatever you prefer to call it; I know some folks here don’t like that term) boils down to… is there an acceptable amount of discomfort you can both tolerate in order to preserve the relationship?  E.g., is the discomfort of celibacy for you equal to the discomfort of ENM for her?  If the former is major and the second is moderate or minor, some form of ENM might be a workable compromise.  And so on.  Just using that as an example, not specifically suggesting it.

 

Regarding sexual activities within the original relationship, a situation where one person either a) only wants sex with someone who desires them and/or b) is uncomfortable accepting sex from someone they know is doing it as a duty, and the other person does not desire anyone and would prefer a life free of partnered sex, does not really have any space for compromise in this particular area.  There’s no way for the second person to provide any sort of sexual engagement that circumvents a or b.  They might (or might not) be willing to have sex to avoid breaking up, or because they want to see their partner happier, but there is no compromise that’s going to somehow change their perspective or orientation.