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Sexual Compromise & Support


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45 minutes ago, Serran said:

That sounds to me more like you "broke up" and changed the marriage to friendship without changing title or living arrangements?

 

Which isnt exactly the same as poly - multiple loves in the romantic / sexual sense, which is more what ryn was referencing doesnt work for monos. 

*nods*

 

Friendship and/or co-parenting arrangement, in this case.

 

Which is fine if it works for everyone involved.

 

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Traveler40
2 hours ago, Serran said:

That sounds to me more like you "broke up" and changed the marriage to friendship without changing title or living arrangements?

Not exactly - I suppose you could say that due to his orientation and the resulting complete lack of care for my needs (incompatibility) we grew into this partnership across time.  

 

It was a long and very drawn out adjustment of sorts I suppose.  The marriage naturally morphed and is contrary to what either of us imagined or hoped for at the outset  We are true partners in life in ways that make a family a unit.  He would like things to be different (me back in the box and celibate), but that’s no longer possible.

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I am not sure I can deal with a "side" relationship. Can you imagine TWO guys with a cold :D ? I just want to have "all-in-one". When I start loving somebody else, I stop caring for the first one. That is not a route I would like to go. I am afraid even my feelings for my husband are shattered by the fact I feel uber neglected. I noticed I am trying to avoid doing things together. I would call us roommates on this level. 

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1 hour ago, Traveler40 said:

Not exactly - I suppose you could say that due to his orientation and the resulting complete lack of care for my needs (incompatibility) we grew into this partnership across time.  

 

It was a long and very drawn out adjustment of sorts I suppose.  The marriage naturally morphed and is contrary to what either of us imagined or hoped for at the outset  We are true partners in life in ways that make a family a unit.  He would like things to be different (me back in the box and celibate), but that’s no longer possible.

From the outside this sounds like a very, very slow breakup (that won’t be complete until the kids are grown, and maybe not then if things change) but maybe it feels different from within it.

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1 hour ago, Sparkly said:

When I start loving somebody else, I stop caring for the first one.

This sounds like you are naturally mono, rather than naturally poly.

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14 hours ago, Sparkly said:

@uhtred yes, that is my worry that we will try to compromise again and it will turn into solely my compromise again. As always. I understand he does not miss anything in our relationship, he has it all (according to his words) but is not able to see things from my perspective. And also I don’t have any desire of mechanical sex when I feel he wants to be done with it. It has zero benefit for me, it feels humiliating. 

@anisotrophic I need deeper connection with somebody I would sleep with. I just can’t hop on anybody and feel satisfied. So open marriage will either give me zero satisfaction or I will develop feelings for the other man. 

@Sparkly Sadly I know exactly how you feel. 

 

After 35 years things have gotten a little better in the last few months, but I'm very aware that sex is something that always happens on our "chore" day, after other chores are done.   It also sounds like my wife is less asexual than your husband.   A lot of what is good about sex is not the physical act itself, but the feeling of being desired.  That is something you can never have with an asexual partner. 

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@uhtred yup, that is exactly what it is. I want to feel like a woman, not only like a mother of his kids. If I am not wanted and I am just another chore on the list, I just simply have no more desire to try. My hope died about 3 years ago. That was a breaking point when I realized we have a bigger problem than we thought, even though we were trying to solve this topic since forever. Although my husband was not honest about his sexuality for years. He was always blaming things on everything but his libido. He worked night shifts, he had some health issues, school, busy at work, kids too small etc. With our last child, more than 7 years ago, he completely left our bedroom and returned only for one or two nights a month. If even that... When I wanted to have intimacy, I had to initiate but after being refused a few times, I just felt like poop. I know this has nothing to go with general attractivity, but I was blaming myself for not being pretty enough for him. Well, I was absolutely wrong and now I know that even Cindy Crawford would not have a change. And I also know that I am attractive, I get compliments all the time. It still took a toll on my confidence though. I am slowly putting it back together. Of course, he is a good guy, friend and father but I just can't accept the fact that I have to compromise to celibacy. I DON'T WANT TO! I've done a lot of it without volunteering and all I wanna do is just scream and cry :( . I am so full of emotions after our last talk (=my monologue) last week and I really don't know what to do. Three kids, no job, being always "mom". My plan is to get a job after the Summer break, somebody has to take care of the kids but I just feel so strong urge to do something now.

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8 minutes ago, Sparkly said:

@uhtred yup, that is exactly what it is. I want to feel like a woman, not only like a mother of his kids. If I am not wanted and I am just another chore on the list, I just simply have no more desire to try. My hope died about 3 years ago. That was a breaking point when I realized we have a bigger problem than we thought, even though we were trying to solve this topic since forever. Although my husband was not honest about his sexuality for years. He was always blaming things on everything but his libido. He worked night shifts, he had some health issues, school, busy at work, kids too small etc. With our last child, more than 7 years ago, he completely left our bedroom and returned only for one or two nights a month. If even that... When I wanted to have intimacy, I had to initiate but after being refused a few times, I just felt like poop. I know this has nothing to go with general attractivity, but I was blaming myself for not being pretty enough for him. Well, I was absolutely wrong and now I know that even Cindy Crawford would not have a change. And I also know that I am attractive, I get compliments all the time. It still took a toll on my confidence though. I am slowly putting it back together. Of course, he is a good guy, friend and father but I just can't accept the fact that I have to compromise to celibacy. I DON'T WANT TO! I've done a lot of it without volunteering and all I wanna do is just scream and cry :( . I am so full of emotions after our last talk (=my monologue) last week and I really don't know what to do. Three kids, no job, being always "mom". My plan is to get a job after the Summer break, somebody has to take care of the kids but I just feel so strong urge to do something now.

I've lived with this for 35 years.  I love my wife, and she loves me.  She tries, she really does, but she can't choose to desire me.   Not her fault, its just the way she is wired.

 

I think its better to find someone compatible.   No fault, no blame - but you and your husband have a basic incompatibility, every bit as bad as if one of you discovered that you were gay. 

 

For many people a good sex life is vital to feeling love.   It can't be separated 

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18 minutes ago, Sparkly said:

Although my husband was not honest about his sexuality for years.

Has he admitted this to you?  I’m asking because it’s not uncommon for ace people - especially those who reached adulthood before asexuality was a part of sex ed and general media discussion, and/or who grew up in families/communities/cultures where sex before marriage is frowned upon - to not realize they are asexual (or even “different,” as opposed to just having issues with sex in a particular relationship) until they’ve been in relationships for some time.

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@ryn2 Since we met, he was always looking for excuses why not to have sex (busy, night shifts, sick etc.). We started therapies about 4 years ago and that was the moment when he said sex was never anything he was interested in, even as an adolescent. That was the first time when he basically said something. It wasn't to me, he said it to the therapist but of course, I was present. Whenever I asked him (before), he was always blaming the lack of sexual appetite on "life", as I call it. 

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Was he intentionally misleading you or did he not realize (at the time) what was going on?

 

E.g., as I look back at my life in hindsight I can see indicators I was ace all the way back to my teens but at the time I had no idea... I didn’t realize it was even a possibility until I was in my early 50’s.  Prior to that (and even for a while afterwards) I thought I hadn’t found the right person, one or both of us was “doing it wrong,” life stress was interfering, etc.

 

It doesn’t help with sexual compatibility but a shared issue that’s no one’s fault is a lot different emotionally than a willful deception.

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@ryn2 I have no idea. I just wonder why he said that to the therapist and never to me. I really don't know how he feels, he does not communicate much either. I am just about to write him to write me if it makes sense... It could avoid some of the emotions and we both will be more rational than talking face-to-face.

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@Telecaster68 I agree... It is hard to believe he did not have a clue. I do not like playing football, I know it and that is why I do not play football. Without telling somebody I like football. Maybe I see it all too simplified but your example is great and I just have to agree. 

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10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I honestly find it hard to believe that someone doesn't join the dots about never liking sex and conclude that 30 years of thinking it's a set of discrete reasons like stress, time, illness, feeling full, tired, lacking privacy may not be entirely accurate.

 

It's like me coming up with a series of unrelated reasons why this week I don't want to go to a football match, while maintaining in general, I do like football. For thirty years... I'm fairly certain I'd start concluding I can't actually like football matches or I'd find a way to actually go to one.

 

ETA: add to that, if I had a bunch of friends who kept urging me to come to the match with them every week, I can absolutely see I might claim tiredness, being busy, etc. rather than 'fess up. In which case I'd be lying.

 

I think this line of thinking is why a lot of sexual are very suspicious about the 'I just didn't know I didn't like sex' defence.

As you often say, though, (and, yes, I am paraphrasing) a person who has actually experienced something is more qualified to speak to what it’s like than someone who has only studied it.

 

So, it may be unfathomable to you, but it’s my actual, lived experience.  Enough other aces have said the same that I don’t think my situation is unique.

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12 minutes ago, Sparkly said:

I am just about to write him to write me if it makes sense... It could avoid some of the emotions and we both will be more rational than talking face-to-face.

It does make sense and for some people it’s definitely helpful.

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Just now, Telecaster68 said:

I honestly find that lack of self-insight staggering.

Which it may appear to you to be, given how you experience sex and sexuality.

 

Given how I experience sex and sexuality, it seems very normal and understandable to me when another ace person talks about similar experiences... or when an ace person’s partner describes similar-sounding behaviors.

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Just now, Telecaster68 said:

It's not particularly about sex, it's about noticing your own actions and thoughts.

Not really.  Everyone interprets their own actions and thoughts within the framework of their society, upbringing, friend group, interests, etc.

 

It seems to be changing some but up until fairly recently when someone said “I don’t really enjoy sex with [person] as much as I thought I would” the list of suggestions and considerations didn’t include “could you maybe be ace?” or even “could you just not be into sex in general?”

 

Also, relationship issues often don’t exist in a clean vacuum.  As I look back over time sex was an issue in all my relationships but one (and that one involved lots of what would be considered foreplay but almost no PIV sex).  However, there were also money issues, “with this person for such bad reasons” issues, health issues (mine and theirs), infidelity, porn, substance abuse, unemployment, mental health challenges, family conflicts, etc.  All of those things  are considered normal/understandable causes for problems in the bedroom.

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I think you’re talking about a pattern within each relationship, not a pattern from relationship to relationship (which - the latter - is what I meant).

 

Sure, within each relationship I (gradually, in some cases) noticed that all sex with the person was not as enjoyable as I expected, and that it became less so over time.  Many times there was a plausible explanation (see the list above).  When I asked people about it, or researched it, though... none of the pointers I got were ever “maybe you’re just not into sex.”  They were all about how to make sex better, how women tend not to feel desire if they are stressed about other responsibilities, how when you’re angry with someone they are often less appealing, how someone with issue XYZ is emotionally unavailable and women need emotional intimacy to enjoy sex, etc.

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But when you do notice you’re unhappy about something, or it’s causing your partner distress, isn’t that what most people do?  Ask their friends, ask their doctor, read up, etc.?

 

When you do that, you get suggestions.  You try them.  They don’t help, or they change the problem rather than fixing it.  You ask again.  Each time (at least if you are female, although I saw similar things with my ex’s unexplained ED) you get told it’s normal.  You just need to relax/wear cute lingerie/make time for romance/remember that it’s normal to struggle when your emotional needs aren’t met/etc.

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11 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You might've concluded that it was vanishingly unlikely you'd been more tired, stressed, etc than everyone who did like sex, for thirty years, and therefore it might be you just didn't like sex.

I didn’t conclude either of those things.  As above I concluded the problem was a combo of all the things I’ve listed (plus, for my most recent ex, his ED).

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Just now, Telecaster68 said:

How on earth would other people know my motives? The only person who could know that would be me. I just have to think harder.

Huh?

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anisotrophic
2 hours ago, Sparkly said:

I want to feel like a woman, not only like a mother of his kids.

whoops, I think I may have taken a very weird solution to this... (given up the "feel like a woman" part) 😂

But @Sparkly it does sound like you're ready to fall in love again, and that it means you're likely ready to move on.

Regarding me, in case it helps: I think I can only fall in love with one person at a time. But my current partner is someone I trust deeply, a long term love at this point (married over a decade). It seems that didn't disappear even when I "fell in love" with a new person. I was surprised; if you asked me five years ago I would have said I'm naturally monogamous. I was -- but I guess it's different when it was someone I've been together with for a long time.

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58 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

But when you do notice you’re unhappy about something, or it’s causing your partner distress, isn’t that what most people do?  Ask their friends, ask their doctor, read up, etc.?

 

When you do that, you get suggestions.  You try them.  They don’t help, or they change the problem rather than fixing it.  You ask again.  Each time (at least if you are female, although I saw similar things with my ex’s unexplained ED) you get told it’s normal.  You just need to relax/wear cute lingerie/make time for romance/remember that it’s normal to struggle when your emotional needs aren’t met/etc.

Oh yeah. I hated the suggestions. It confused me so much more. "Its normal to not like it"... then why do it ? "For men, duh. They wont stay without it" to "You just need to experiment to find what works for you" had me having sex I didnt like for 15 years until 30 years old ... trying to find what I liked. *sigh* And partners were offering the same junk as friends and family !

 

I might have found out how to like sexual activities for me earlier if I had not asked other people for advice. That was an annoyingly confusing rabbit hole

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

If I was trying to work out why I didn't like sex, I'd look deeper internally, rather than asking other people.

That’s the problem, though.  I didn’t know I “didn’t like sex.”  Within my frame of reference, I had some sexual experiences that were fine or even enjoyable, and others that were less so.  What it looked like I had was relationship problems that were making me not want to have sex with [specific person].

 

Sex never lived up to all the hype, but that’s kind of par for the course for a lot of “adult” things that sound amazing when you are slightly too young to have them.

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anisotrophic
30 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

that’s kind of par for the course for a lot of “adult” things that sound amazing when you are slightly too young to have them

Gets me thinking about what goes the other way.... coffee always sounded boring as a kid, but now I'm convinced caffeine is a-m-a-z-i-n-g

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2 minutes ago, anisotrophic said:

Gets me thinking about what goes the other way.... coffee always sounded boring as a kid, but now I'm convinced caffeine is a-m-a-z-i-n-g

Hah, that one didn’t for me.  My parents were huge coffee drinkers, to the point they boiled water on the propane grill in the driveway during power outages.  When I reached adulthood... it was fine.  I have minimal to no reaction to caffeine (but decaf often triggers a migraine) and the taste is... fine.  Not great, not awful.  Definitely didn’t measure up to the hype.

 

People often react the same way when I say that as they do about sex - “oh, you just haven’t had the right kind!”

 

I’ve tried the works...  the good brands, the craft roasts, the popular drinks.  Turkish.  Greek.  French Press.  Boozy.

 

Yeah, it’s fine.  If someone wants me to drink it, I will.  I don’t ever think of it on my own and if I never have another sip... whatever.

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anisotrophic
26 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

if I never have another sip... whatever

Haha, like sex for you!

 

Let's now speculate a broad, poorly supported inference about the relationship between caffeine and sexuality, AVEN style. 😄

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2 hours ago, anisotrophic said:

Haha, like sex for you!

 

Let's now speculate a broad, poorly supported inference about the relationship between caffeine and sexuality, AVEN style. 😄

Exactly.  Sex = coffee = yeah, whatever.  :)

 

Therefore, lack of caffeine sensitivity must cause...

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40 minutes ago, Sparkly said:

I like it both - sex and coffee :D . Probably equally...

There, for our small sample of three people, one ace and two sexuals, the theory holds!  :)

 

Not trying to make light of your situation, @Sparkly...

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