Sexual Compromise & Support

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

Oh, that seems so sad that you feel all these ways. My heart goes out to you. You are valid, sex has no bearing on how valid you are. It's easy for me to say this as an asexual because I'm outside the box of sexuality, but I'm sure love is love, whether you have sex or not. I think the problem is that society has blended these things too closely, so that 'they don't want to have sex with me ' is seen as 'they don't love me'. I wish you all the best.

[ryn2]

I’m the asexual in my longstanding relationship (married 20 years later this year, if we make it; almost 22 years together total); my SO is apparently the allosexual.  I say “apparently” because he has had ED all along, but (and?) he says he finds discussing anything about sex very uncomfortable so we haven’t talked about it nearly as much as we should have.

 

Earlier this year he indicated he wanted to break our relationship off because it’s become sexless.  Subsequently he admitted he didn’t really know what he wanted and has agreed to joint counseling (we last went many years ago, for something else, and while I think it helped in some areas both of us were uncomfortable discussing sex with that particular therapist).  Our first appt. is in a few weeks.  I’m not sure how it will go - sometimes I’m hopeful, other times very sad - but I think communication is our #1 issue so it may help there regardless of the broader outcome.

 

I first realized I was ace in 2012 (from fandom - I saw someone earlier in this thread said much the same).  I read some of this (much shorter then!) thread early on, but at that point it scared me (how could he not leave?).  This time around I read the entire thing - and then joined - and wanted to thank everyone for helping me understand some things he’s not been able to explain for me.

[ryn2]

Re:  relationships and marriage

 

This may sound impossibly naive to the allosexuals reading this thread but - until I read it here earlier this week - it had literally never dawned on me (in my 50’s, now on my second marriage, with numerous other short- and long-term relationships before/in between) that “entering into a relationship” is actually shorthand for “entering into a sexual relationship.”

 

Now that I *have* read it I can understand how others feel that way, and some of the difference stem from my only-vaguely-Judeo-Christian, pretty-non-religious upbringing, but - I’m a reasonably smart person and - it honestly never hit me before.

 

I’m not aro, so to me a relationship means committing to be - as someone here put it previously - each other’s “My Person.”  It’s also an acknowledgement of wanting to share a life.  I seem to be monogamous by nature (which I guess may be unfortunate because it seems like being ace in a poly household could be easier in some ways) so for me it’s a commitment to not entertain the same level of intimacy with people who are not my partner.

 

I’m sharing this because I’ve seen several people comment on how their ace partners entered into a [sexual] relationship under false pretenses.  Maybe those partners were actually a bit clueless like me?

 

I didn’t even realize I was ace and I still missed it!  I guess in some ways ace and allo folks really (use the same words but) speak a different language.

[ryn2]

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well, it's not just a sexual relationship but the relationship is assumed to include sex, because they almost always do. 

Yep, I see that now.  I just never understood it that way before.  I do get that people in relationships (often) have sex (me included, sometimes), but - partly because people not in relationships have sex too - I never connected the two/understood some might think of it as a requirement.

[everywhere and nowhere]

2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Yep, I see that now.  I just never understood it that way before.  I do get that people in relationships (often) have sex (me included, sometimes), but - partly because people not in relationships have sex too - I never connected the two/understood some might think of it as a requirement.

I understand that people think of it as a requirement, but it hurts me. Because I think that not wanting to have sex should be as acceptable as wanting to have sex.

[ryn2]

35 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You make it sound like a moral criteria, or a necessary skill set. It's neither of those things, it's about two people having compatible needs in a relationship. 

Wasn’t intending to debate the nature of it; I was just offering up a possible alternative explanation for those expressing concerns/ frustrations along the lines of “they entered into a sexual relationship - what did they expect would happen?”:  maybe they (the aces) didn’t really equate “relationship” with “in (varying) part for sex.”

 

Nowadays I’m sure I can’t adequately speak to how allosexuals feel about the role of sex in relationships, since I’m not one.  That’s where your/others’ posts here have been very enlightening.

[ryn2]

44 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

I understand that people think of it as a requirement, but it hurts me. Because I think that not wanting to have sex should be as acceptable as wanting to have sex.

It sounds like the key there is finding a partner (or partners) who deep-down feels the same way about it.  Those of us in mixed relationships, for a variety of reasons, didn’t succeed in so doing.

[NapoliGirl]

On 3/17/2018 at 6:27 PM, CherrySoul said:

I can truly relate to this. I am at a point where cluelessness has taken over almost completely and it's quite frightening. When he is with me, I fear my arousal and desire to the point that I try not to feel and not to move (it hurts less like that I suppose? Besides I tend to swallow my feelings when I get overwhelmed). I don't know where to put my desire, what to do with it, what to tell him and what to do. It feels like a break-up would perhaps be the least painful solution, but then again I don't think I want that. I keep thinking of the future though - the idea of a sexless honeymoon kind of ruins my mood every time.

 

Somehow I feel obsessed, as well. I simply want to experience sex with the person I love and it seems like it's too much to ask. Well, it isn't 'meant to be', and I'm hoping I can make do with what he is comfortable with. Knowing that I'll likely never have that sort of relationship with him - passionate and sexy, involving our entire bodies and intercourse - truly gives me nasty feelings of all sorts. When I'm not sad, feeling lonely or unattractive, I feel angry or misunderstood.

 

My solution for now is to explore my own needs and wants - sexual but also physical, emotional and social. I will try to transform my daily life into a more pleasant and more fulfilling one and I'm hoping to shift away the focus from this rather unhealthy obsession of what is lacking in my life. As you correctly pointed out, King Coco, it all comes down to feeling desired. What would I give if I could know that I am desireable and attractive, at least to others if not to him. I would like to have that confirmed - it still somehow feels like it's my fault in a way (although I know it's not). If I can manage to raise my self-esteem and not need validation from others, perhaps I could manage to be happy in this relationship.

You may feel like you are obsessed but that is only because of the lack of something so very important to you.  For me it's also not just about the physical, but the sadness of knowing that my husband has no feelings of desire or attraction towards me; that he never did, and that he never will.

Your feelings of a sexless honeymoon; let me say this, it's a sad thing indeed.  My own was 27 years ago and those feelings are still so raw, even after all these years.  

 

As far as raising your self-esteem and redirecting your focus, just a few points to consider.  Yes, this can work, but perhaps only temporarily  You may decide to get married, and if you bring kids into the world (yes, it does happen!!)  you may channel a huge chunk of your energies into them.  You may also have a great career to devote your energies into as well.  A great circle of friends, charitable or civic organizations to get involved with, whatever, the more the better.  It can work.  It worked for me, for 25 years.  But bear in mind, after you have managed, sublimated, turned off, redirected, etc., invested a lifetime into your relationship, making it "work", these things may make you "happy" and sustain you for quite some time. but it just may all come to a point where you say, hey, I've lived this life for x number of years, and I honestly do not want to live the next x number of years like this anymore.  Believe me, it is so agonizing emotionally when you've spent a lifetime with someone and come to this realization.  You are fortunate in that you know the reality of your significant other's sexual orientation right now.  For many of us, on the other hand, it comes to light after we have heavily invested ourselves into a relationship where there is going to be a lot of fallout should we walk away...divorce, kids, custody, financial security, being older, etc...

 

Think about this a bit.  You are not bound by anything legal yet.  Think carefully.  

 

And, one last thing to think about.  Listen to your inner voice, trust it.  You are deserving.

 

 

[ryn2]

I think most (all?) relationships involve compromise... in the end it’s a case of where you’re willing/able to compromise and where you’re just not.

 

As @NapoliGirl said above, though, it’s a bit different facing the decision early on in a relationship than it is after you’ve invested years or decades of work, money, shared experiences, etc., in a life together.

 

I don’t regret my mixed relationship but I would have at minimum handled many things differently had I known pre-marriage about my partner’s and my sexuality differences.

[MrDane]

4 hours ago, Nowhere Girl said:

I understand that people think of it as a requirement, but it hurts me. Because I think that not wanting to have sex should be as acceptable as wanting to have sex.

You are perfectly allowed to not want the relationship to include sex, but as most people see sex as a natural part of a loving relationship, it should be adressed and very clearly so. 

[everywhere and nowhere]

2 minutes ago, MrDane said:

You are perfectly allowed to not want the relationship to include sex, but as most people see sex as a natural part of a loving relationship, it should be adressed and very clearly so. 

I never said it shouldn't. People should talk about their expectations. Actually, the current state of things - where compulsory sexuality prevails and nonsexuality is marginalized - is the one which doesn't promote such communication because people take it for granted that everyone must desire sex.

[MrDane]

1 minute ago, Nowhere Girl said:

I never said it shouldn't. People should talk about their expectations. Actually, the current state of things - where compulsory sexuality prevails and nonsexuality is marginalized - is the one which doesn't promote such communication because people take it for granted that everyone must desire sex...

I think I agree with you. I just want to say that nonsexuality or asexuality is marginalized because it exist in the margin. Only very few are asexual. Most have sexual desire, though quite a huge range from the hypersexual nympho with sex on the mind 24-7 to the very low libido, almost only for procreation, could be celibate without much stress.

...therefore, yes they should talk about expectations before marriage. 

[vega57]

4 minutes ago, MrDane said:

...therefore, yes they should talk about expectations before marriage. 

That would be great IF couples knew what to talk about and their expectations were consistent.  For example, how many couples would talk about what to do if she becomes pregnant, gives birth and has absolutely NO desire for sex several months (at a minimum) after the birth?  I'm sure that many couples would eagerly say, "Sure!  I could handle a few months!"

 

...until they actually go through it.  Also, a woman (for example) can still be sexual, yet have a low libido, when suddenly, she hits menopause, and her libido goes through the roof.  Meanwhile, her husband may also have a low libido, so there was no real 'issue' with sex for the first 25 years.  

 

Maybe there should be a requirement that all couples have pre-marital counseling that involves these possible differences...?

[MrDane]

2 minutes ago, vega57 said:

That would be great IF couples knew what to talk about and their expectations were consistent.  For example, how many couples would talk about what to do if she becomes pregnant, gives birth and has absolutely NO desire for sex several months (at a minimum) after the birth?  I'm sure that many couples would eagerly say, "Sure!  I could handle a few months!"

 

...until they actually go through it.  Also, a woman (for example) can still be sexual, yet have a low libido, when suddenly, she hits menopause, and her libido goes through the roof.  Meanwhile, her husband may also have a low libido, so there was no real 'issue' with sex for the first 25 years.  

 

Maybe there should be a requirement that all couples have pre-marital counseling that involves these possible differences...?

There are, of course, things you cannot know or control how they turn out. It is a natural part of life. I did expect/worry that having kids would change a lot about our sex life. It sure did. But what we both thougth was a long period of not wanting/desiring sex turned out to be the beginning of realizing that was how it had always been.  I do still worry about the comming menopause and when the children grow up and move away. Will she then realize that she needs more “alone time” or is there more room for me? I have experienced being constantly moved down on the list of priorities.

There should always be room for change or developing or finding new aspects of yourself. 

[ryn2]

That’s both very true and where it gets sticky, as sometimes that growing and changing is in

a direction the other person just can’t adjust to.

 

Maybe raised awareness and recommended counseling could help ferret out issues... but in a society where something is the norm people may just say what they expect is true before realizing it isn’t.

[vega57]

3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Maybe raised awareness and recommended counseling could help ferret out issues... but in a society where something is the norm people may just say what they expect is true before realizing it isn’t.

Exactly, which is part of what the pre-marital "education" would provide.  As much as 'society' says that something is "the norm", the education could sort of pick up where our sex ed in school left off.  

[ryn2]

I feel like this should be a college course!

 

Of course, it probably is part of things like Human Sexuality nowadays.  I went to college an awfully long time ago.

[vega57]

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Well especially church marriages tend to have something like that for everything other than sex, so it would be better if sex was added to the list. 

The Roman Catholic church does require couples to go through Pre-Cana and intimacy is discussed.  But it's discussed in the context of the underlying attitude that says, "You're going to have sex, whether you want to or not, whether you like it or not and it's not only going to be for procreation."  

 

Quote

Obviously some changes are more likely than others: most couples with young kids are just too knackered and busy for sex to be so important (and the hormones produced during breastfeeding also tend to reduce libido apparently); every woman goes through menopause and that can change her sex drive drastically; illnesson either side can effect libido. The reactions can't be preset but at least current attitudes and expectations can be discussed and it's food for thought, rather than uncovering a whole set of new discoveries when whatever whatever crisis hits. 

Well, perhaps some of the myths of sex can be dissolved, such as, that having a libido automatically means that your body wants sex.  As you know being here on AVEN,, there are a number of asexuals who DO have a fairly strong libido, yet have NO DESIRE for sex.  I'm only using this as an example because I've read that some husband's get rather upset when they haven't have sex with their wives in months/years, only to find their wife 'pleasuring herself'.  

 

Quote

Other things are a lot less likely - such as one partner realising they're asexual after a couple of years - so they're going to be harder to anticipate. But at least having that conversation might uncover hidden assumptions early on, about, say, the importance of sex and its emotional role in a relationship. 

Yes.  I also believe that perhaps it would be to everyone's benefit if the emotional role of sex is more delved into.  I understand that many people use sex as a form of 'validation of their desirability'.  Maybe that notion could be...challenged...a bit more...?

 

Another possibility is that our attitudes about masturbation can be discussed and discovered that masturbation within a marriage is perfect o.k.  

[vega57]

7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I feel like this should be a college course!

 

Of course, it probably is part of things like Human Sexuality nowadays.  I went to college an awfully long time ago.

Yeah, I've thought about that, too.  Just when would it be a good time to offer this course?  Maybe as a requirement throughout high school?  Maybe as a 'refresher' course in college?  

 

And it wouldn't simply be another course about reproduction.  It would include discussions about The Elusive Female Orgasm...Erectile Dysfunction...We Had A Baby and Lost A Sex Life!...premature ejaculation...retroactive jealousy...responsive desire...

 

...and so on.

[MrDane]

2 minutes ago, vega57 said:

The Roman Catholic church does require couples to go through Pre-Cana and intimacy is discussed.  But it's discussed in the context of the underlying attitude that says, "You're going to have sex, whether you want to or not, whether you like it or not and it's not only going to be for procreation."  

 

Well, perhaps some of the myths of sex can be dissolved, such as, that having a libido automatically means that your body wants sex.  As you know being here on AVEN,, there are a number of asexuals who DO have a fairly strong libido, yet have NO DESIRE for sex.  I'm only using this as an example because I've read that some husband's get rather upset when they haven't have sex with their wives in months/years, only to find their wife 'pleasuring herself'.  

 

Yes.  I also believe that perhaps it would be to everyone's benefit if the emotional role of sex is more delved into.  I understand that many people use sex as a form of 'validation of their desirability'.  Maybe that notion could be...challenged...a bit more...?

 

Another possibility is that our attitudes about masturbation can be discussed and discovered that masturbation within a marriage is perfect o.k.  

I would be quite okay with it, if my wife masturbated to get a sexual release that she could not have with partnered sex. I just cant get my sexual need met by only masturbating, and to most sexuals the partnered sex or at least shared experience is what does the job. I would be really upset if she didnt consider whether I could be participating in her joyful touching herself-thing.

[NapoliGirl]

3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I think most (all?) relationships involve compromise... in the end it’s a case of where you’re willing/able to compromise and where you’re just not.

 

As @NapoliGirl said above, though, it’s a bit different facing the decision early on in a relationship than it is after you’ve invested years or decades of work, money, shared experiences, etc., in a life together.

 

I don’t regret my mixed relationship but I would have at minimum handled many things differently had I known pre-marriage about my partner’s and my sexuality differences.

Absolutely, knowledge can be power before you commit!

[vega57]

1 minute ago, MrDane said:

I would be quite okay with it, if my wife masturbated to get a sexual release that she could not have with partnered sex. I just cant get my sexual need met by only masturbating, and to most sexuals the partnered sex or at least shared experience is what does the job. I would be really upset if she didnt consider whether I could be participating in her joyful touching herself-thing.

Whether or not one is sexual or asexual, sometimes, you just want to 'get it done'.  It's like scratching an itch.  If I invited a partner to scratch my itch, my partner may want to do MORE than simply scratch my itch.  

 

Meanwhile, I just want to get rid of that damn ticklish feeling as quickly as possible!  I've literally 'gotten rid of that itch' in less than 30 seconds.  There is NO WAY that my partner could do that for me in 30 seconds, especially if he's not home.  

[MrDane]

1 minute ago, vega57 said:

Whether or not one is sexual or asexual, sometimes, you just want to 'get it done'.  It's like scratching an itch.  If I invited a partner to scratch my itch, my partner may want to do MORE than simply scratch my itch.  

 

Meanwhile, I just want to get rid of that damn ticklish feeling as quickly as possible!  I've literally 'gotten rid of that itch' in less than 30 seconds.  There is NO WAY that my partner could do that for me in 30 seconds, especially if he's not home.  

Good point! The first couple of days after we have had sex, then I can also scratch my itch. I would rather have her giving me some help, though. Or even better, wanting to scratch my itch. 

[vega57]

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think all churches have those sessions in the UK, and what gets said will depend on the church's wider views. I'm sure there is an assumption that sex will be had, because it mostly is, and mostly both partners want it but there's no reason that assumption couldn't be questioned. 

Right, and that's exactly my point.  

Quote

 

Libido equals 'wanting to have sex' isn't so much a myth as 'sometimes not true'. For most sexuals, it is generally the case. Masturbation might be a substitute for them, but only in the sense that decaff is better than no coffee if there's no real coffee around. 

 

The point is, that there are people 'out there' who believe that once they're married, they "shouldn't" have to masturbate.  Masturbation is seen as 'inferior' to sex, and even if the sexual simply wanted to 'get off', that 'getting off' with a partner is preferred to 'getting off' by themselves.  

 

Having a partner doesn't mean that one gets to take liberties simply because a partner is available to "take care of them" if they have the ability to take care of themselves. 

 

Quote

 

What's the argument that someone wanting to have sex with you *doesn't* validate your desirability then? Or that your spouse not wanting to have sex with you doesn't make you feel less desirable? 

 

Perhaps not depending on someone else for your own sense of self-esteem...I suppose...?  

[vega57]

6 minutes ago, MrDane said:

Good point! The first couple of days after we have had sex, then I can also scratch my itch. I would rather have her giving me some help, though. Or even better, wanting to scratch my itch. 

Serious question.  If you have the ability to do it yourself, why would you "need" her "help"?  

 

That attitude used to drive me NUTS about my late husband, lol!  It was as if once we got married, he suddenly "needed help" making his own coffee!  Reminds me of housewives of the 1950s who were told to make their husbands feel "needed" by asking him to change a light bulb for her, that she had the ability to change on her own.  

[vega57]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well in an ideal world, yes, maybe everybody would be completely independent of everyone else's attitude to them. But if every time you opened your mouth, your spouse told you to shut up, inevitably you'd question whether you were in fact worth talking to.  

No.  If my spouse told me to "shut up" TWICE in our marriage, I would question if HE, in fact was worth talking to...

 

...and quickly exit the marriage!  

 

That wouldn't take me umpteen years to figure out.  

[vega57]

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But you see the analogy, I assume. 

 

The sexual version would be that the sexual partner - with their healthy boundaries and self image - would decide the other partner wasn't worth keeping if they kept refusing sex. 

If my partner told  me to "shut up", my partner is being verbally abusive.  Turing my partner down for sex is not being "abusive".  Abused women face that 'tactic' many times in their marriages/relationships, and they learn that it's their body and only they have a right to decide what to do with it.  

[MrDane]

1 minute ago, vega57 said:

Serious question.  If you have the ability to do it yourself, why would you "need" her "help"?  

 

That attitude used to drive me NUTS about my late husband, lol!  It was as if once we got married, he suddenly "needed help" making his own coffee!  Reminds me of housewives of the 1950s who were told to make their husbands feel "needed" by asking him to change a light bulb for her, that she had the ability to change on her own.  

Serious answer! No need to put my need in quotation marks to show they are not really needs. Without partnered sex, I drift slowly off into a mild state of depression. I dont need a depression, thanks. After my partner, without stress or threats, has maturely and lovingly agreed to help me with my sexuality in a way that she does not feel violated by, and sometimes enjoys a lot herself, othertimes is just okay with, after she has made my body shiver in cosmic happiness. After that, I have a window of opportunity open for masturbating. Perhaps the next three days. I dont do it that often though. And it will just feel like a nice scratch. No cosmic yahoo galore. But nice. (I would still prefer comitted partnered sex, but that would be stressful to my loved one and I want her to relax and be happy and stressfree)

when I was young and alone, I masturbated and felt alone and dreamed about getting a girlfriend who would love me and want me.

[vega57]

Just now, MrDane said:

Serious answer! No need to put my need in quotation marks to show they are not really needs. Without partnered sex, I drift slowly off into a mild state of depression. I dont need a depression, thanks. After my partner, without stress or threats, has maturely and lovingly agreed to help me with my sexuality in a way that she does not feel violated by, and sometimes enjoys a lot herself, othertimes is just okay with, after she has made my body shiver in cosmic happiness. After that, I have a window of opportunity open for masturbating. Perhaps the next three days. I dont do it that often though. And it will just feel like a nice scratch. No cosmic yahoo galore. But nice. (I would still prefer comitted partnered sex, but that would be stressful to my loved one and I want her to relax and be happy and stressfree)

when I was young and alone, I masturbated and felt alone and dreamed about getting a girlfriend who would love me and want me.

But you already said elsewhere on this forum that sex was kind of an 'addiction' for you (and for a lot of sexuals, I suppose).  Aren't you then looking toward your spouse to feed your addiction?  

[Sally]

On 2/7/2018 at 2:34 AM, Telecaster68 said:

The same reasons as asexuals stay, I imagine.

 

Personally, apart from the positives that are still there, a combination of financial reasons and inertia at the thought of upending 18 years of shared life.

I don't think so.  Asexuals may stay because there are positives, but also because they have no realistic hope of finding another relationship that doesn't have the same sexual mismatch.   Sexuals do.