Neanderthals walk among us!

[sonofzeal]

....and one of them could be YOU!!!

(I thought I posted this to AVEN ages ago, but the search function tells me otherwise. Well, here it is now!)

Modern science is pretty darn certain that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons (our more direct ancestors) interbred in Europe. The two weren't even all that different to begin with - both had tools, language, and culture. Both had very similar builds. Both were "human" in a way we'd recognize, even if the difference between them was far greater than any two current ethnicities. Really, Neanderthals were just more cold-adapted. They were build a little slower and more compact, because they lose less heat that way. We can observe similar builds among ethnic groups from arctic climates as well, to a lesser degree. Neanderthal skulls were also shaped a little differently and were a little thicker, providing better insulation against the cold.

It's the skull point that's relevant here.

I want you to put your hand on the back of your head. Imagine you're protecting yourself from a fall, that'll help get the position right. Now, move your hand maybe a centimeter down. Your skull should now be sloping inwards to meet your neck. Without moving your hand off this position, check for a bump in the middle, a part of your skull that doesn't follow the smooth flowing curve down to your neck. Don't worry if you can't find it, not everyone has one.

For those of you who found it - congratulations, that's an "occipital bun" (or "occipital ridge" depending on the shape, but mine's a bun). It's also a distinctly Neanderthal trait. This is no guarantee that you've got some Neanderthal in you, but it's likely. Odds go up if you are European, and if you find yourself comfortable in cooler temperatures than your peers.

For those of who didn't find it, well, no guarantee again. But it's entirely possible you're pure Cro-Magnon stock, or as close to it as anyone cares about. This puts you more on the winning team. Cro-Magnon won the battle for pre-historic Europe, partially through intermarriage and being better adapted to the warmer temperatures as the ice age ended, but mostly through violence and warfare. It's disturbing to think that our species rose to where it is on the back of genocide, but it seems likely.

I'll end with a couple caveats. Do be aware that the occipital bun test is by no means scientifically rigorous; there are DNA tests if you really want to know for sure, but they cost money. And, assuming you were born within the last few thousand years, the percentage of neanderthal blood in you is almost guaranteed to be quite small. All of us have all sorts of Cro-Magnon traits, and the occipital bun is one of only a few identifiable Neanderthal traits that still persist in a minority of humans.

[Qutenkuddly]

I like the theory that the reasons why Cro-magnon won out is because they were the 'economy model' in comparison to the robust 'sport utility model' Neanderthals, who were stronger and more heavily built. When they were repeatedly forced into narrow bands of cohabitated regions with meager resources to compete for, Cro-magnon won out because they simply needed to eat less.

[sonofzeal]

I like the theory that the reasons why Cro-magnon won out is because they were the 'economy model' in comparison to the robust 'sport utility model' Neanderthals, who were stronger and more heavily built. When they were repeatedly forced into narrow bands of cohabitated regions with meager resources to compete for, Cro-magnon won out because they simply needed to eat less.

Well, from what I've heard the ending ice age was certainly a factor. As temperatures rose, more of Europe drifted closer to climates that Cro-Magnon preferred, and where they could out-compete Neanderthals. Humans are endurance hunters by nature, with a lot of our physiology determined by the need for heat regulation in sustained exercise, so a shift in climate patterns could have thrown off the whole equation. Neanderthals could (likely) cope with lower temperatures, but in hotter weather they'd tire more quickly, and weren't as fast even at the best of times. Cro-Magnon by contrast were leaner and faster and better at shedding heat, if not as good at retaining it, so when heat retention became less of an issue they started winning out.

[daveb]

It's a bit of a stretch to say "Neanderthals walk among us". At most you can only say that there is a little Neanderthal dna in some modern humans (which the body of your post implies in contrast to the title - like a lot of popular science articles in general, the title is an attention grabber and often inaccurate or even incorrect. Always good to read the "fine print". :P ).

(also, some people have dna from Denisovans, another group of prehistoric humans, different from modern humans, and whose remains were found in Siberia)

[sonofzeal]

It's a bit of a stretch to say "Neanderthals walk among us". At most you can only say that there is a little Neanderthal dna in some modern humans (which the body of your post implies in contrast to the title - like a lot of popular science articles in general, the title is an attention grabber and often inaccurate or even incorrect. Always good to read the "fine print". :P ).

I do try to entertain every now and then. And it's a stretch, but not quite a total fabrication - no pure-bread Neanderthals could possibly still be around, but there's certainly people who have notably Neanderthalian traits and, presumably, a substantially higher genotypal correlation in that direction than the bulk of humanity. I'd change it if I thought people might mistake my meaning, but I've found I can usually trust AVENites to have a solid reading level. ;)

(also, some people have dna from Denisovans, another group of prehistoric humans, different from modern humans, and whose remains were found in Siberia)

Interesting, I'd never heard of that! Are there any phenotypal markers for thhat which still persist?

[SorryNotSorry]

Strange how those evolution illustrations always depict Cro-Magnon man looking like my late boss with a spear...

[gotchamate]

very interesting. we're all primates, so it is quite possible that most of us have kept some genes from our ancestors.

[daveb]

That's the thing, it's not most of us - only some people have Neanderthal and/or Denisovan dna.

I don't know about any phenotypal markers. I think the remains of Denisovans they have found so far are very limited.

Fascinating stuff all the same. :)

[5_♦♣]

Yep, I'm a neanderthal. Though I don't really like cold weather, I like mild weather. I am of European ancestry though.

[Bye Bye Birdy]

x

[cleuchtturm]

I'm guessing mine is a ridge, since it goes in. I am of European ancestry (fairly strong too) and I love cold weather. I wear shorts in 50 degree F weather and those around me are in jackets. :lol:

EDIT: I have no freaking clue. Thanks Kaillem. :lol:

[Qutenkuddly]

I like the theory that the reasons why Cro-magnon won out is because they were the 'economy model' in comparison to the robust 'sport utility model' Neanderthals, who were stronger and more heavily built. When they were repeatedly forced into narrow bands of cohabitated regions with meager resources to compete for, Cro-magnon won out because they simply needed to eat less.

Well, from what I've heard the ending ice age was certainly a factor. As temperatures rose, more of Europe drifted closer to climates that Cro-Magnon preferred, and where they could out-compete Neanderthals. Humans are endurance hunters by nature, with a lot of our physiology determined by the need for heat regulation in sustained exercise, so a shift in climate patterns could have thrown off the whole equation. Neanderthals could (likely) cope with lower temperatures, but in hotter weather they'd tire more quickly, and weren't as fast even at the best of times. Cro-Magnon by contrast were leaner and faster and better at shedding heat, if not as good at retaining it, so when heat retention became less of an issue they started winning out.

Well, that's the thing; Cro-Magnon really couldn't outcompete Neanderthals, at least not in terms of physical performance. Now, granted, yes Neanderthal was better adapted for colder climes and Cro-Magnon for warmer, but you wouldn't really see it get warm enough in Europe to make it a disadvantage for Neanderthals. Furthermore, if I remember the info from the tour of the Neanderthal Museum in Neander Valley, Germany, correctly, Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons generally kept to their preferred climes save when severe glacial freezing shrank both sets of ranges sufficiently to force them into competition for what meagre food sources were available. While Neanderthals, in general, were simply a lot stronger and more robust, they paid for those advantages metabolically, needing more food to get by than Cro-Magnon. When times are lean, guess who wins.

[Kelly]

Cro-Magnons were homo sapiens.

But the fact that, after sequencing Neanderthal DNA, it was found that a few percent of Eurasian DNA came from Neanderthal, meaning that the two species interbred, and that Eurasians (including myself) are descended from Neandertals (as well as homo sapiens, of course) is fascinating.

Also interesting to know that Neanderthals had our version of the FOXP2 gene, which is required for normal speech. It is believed that they spoke. Their voice boxes were different, and they could not enunciate the complex vowel sounds that we can, and we slightly change volwels to change verb tenses, so their language might not have been as complex. But perhaps some of the interbreeding Neanderthals and homo sapiens could hold some form of verbal communication.

A few years ago, some skeletons were found that were half Neanderthal and half human. That would have to have occured in order for us to have some Neanderthal DNA, so that is not surprising. But there was more breeding among ourselves, of course.

Still, if we have 4% Neanderthal DNA, that is like having a g-g-g-g-grandparent who was Neanderthal.

Also fascinating is, as daveb mentioned, Melanesians are also descended from Denisovans.

[Kaillem]

A couple notes for people feeling for "the bump"

An occipital bun isn't just a small bony protuberance on your skull. It's more like a part of the skull that "pooches" backwards. This wikipedia article actually has some decent photos/drawings of an occipital bun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_bun

If you feel a bony protuberance, which may vary in size, what you're probably feeling is your external occipital protuberance, an attachment for the trapezius muscle and several other neck muscles. Further, if you feel a ridge projecting from both sides, those are called nuchal lines or nuchal ridges. They're also muscle attachments, and are completely normal.

Example of what's NOT an occipital bun (found the first two pics on a forum where the op was very confused about what it was, so if you decide to go look at the forum where I got this image from, just know that they're wrong)

Note that this is a fairly muscular male. Males typically have well-defined external occipital protuberances, and being buff generally helps things develop even more clearly. You can even see the nuchal crests extending out from his EOP.

Just keep that in mind while you're feeling yourselves up :lol:

(BTW - In case you're wondering, I'm in grad school for biological anthropology/bioarchaeology and have been studying human osteology for about 5 years.)

[daveb]

Just keep that in mind while you're feeling yourselves up :lol:

(BTW - In case you're wondering, I'm in grad school for biological anthropology/bioarchaeology and have been studying human osteology for about 5 years.)

:lol:

(cool!)

Thanks for the info, too! :)

[sonofzeal]

A couple notes for people feeling for "the bump"

An occipital bun isn't just a small bony protuberance on your skull. It's more like a part of the skull that "pooches" backwards. This wikipedia article actually has some decent photos/drawings of an occipital bun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_bun

If you feel a bony protuberance, which may vary in size, what you're probably feeling is your external occipital protuberance, an attachment for the trapezius muscle and several other neck muscles. Further, if you feel a ridge projecting from both sides, those are called nuchal lines or nuchal ridges. They're also muscle attachments, and are completely normal.

Example of what's NOT an occipital bun (found the first two pics on a forum where the op was very confused about what it was, so if you decide to go look at the forum where I got this image from, just know that they're wrong)

{snip}

Note that this is a fairly muscular male. Males typically have well-defined external occipital protuberances, and being buff generally helps things develop even more clearly. You can even see the nuchal crests extending out from his EOP.

Just keep that in mind while you're feeling yourselves up :lol:

(BTW - In case you're wondering, I'm in grad school for biological anthropology/bioarchaeology and have been studying human osteology for about 5 years.)

Fascinating! Now I'm wondering how I can tell which one I have. What I'm feeling seems rather like the pictures you just posted, though I expect I haven't got a quarter of his muscle mass. Or is it something you'd have to see in person to tell?

[Qutenkuddly]

A couple notes for people feeling for "the bump"

An occipital bun isn't just a small bony protuberance on your skull. It's more like a part of the skull that "pooches" backwards. This wikipedia article actually has some decent photos/drawings of an occipital bun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_bun

If you feel a bony protuberance, which may vary in size, what you're probably feeling is your external occipital protuberance, an attachment for the trapezius muscle and several other neck muscles. Further, if you feel a ridge projecting from both sides, those are called nuchal lines or nuchal ridges. They're also muscle attachments, and are completely normal.

Example of what's NOT an occipital bun (found the first two pics on a forum where the op was very confused about what it was, so if you decide to go look at the forum where I got this image from, just know that they're wrong)

Thanks for that! With the clarification it provided, I have to say that, no, I do not have an occipital bun. I'm still a hardy, cold weather freak, though. :P

[Kaillem]

Fascinating! Now I'm wondering how I can tell which one I have. What I'm feeling seems rather like the pictures you just posted, though I expect I haven't got a quarter of his muscle mass. Or is it something you'd have to see in person to tell?

I suspect it would make it easier to see in person, but I don't know that it's completely necessary.

You're looking for something that feels more like where the big arrow in the picture below is pointing (putting in spoilers so it doesn't take up the entire screen like my last post)

It's almost certainly not going to feel that pronounced, though, unless you're like, 95% Neanderthal. :)

If it feels more like this:

It's probably an EOP. (The guy whose pics I posted before just happens to have a //massive// EOP. They're not always that pronounced.)

So, basically, that you're looking for is a broad "lump" on the back of your head... almost as if someone took a few oval-shaped pancakes and layered them just above the point where your neck meets your head. The bun should be "above" the relatively little bump for the EOP. I think. I'll double check on some casts on campus tomorrow.

[sonofzeal]

So, basically, that you're looking for is a broad "lump" on the back of your head... almost as if someone took a few oval-shaped pancakes and layered them just above the point where your neck meets your head. The bun should be "above" the relatively little bump for the EOP. I think. I'll double check on some casts on campus tomorrow.

Ah - I think mine's just an EOP then, and nearly as pronounced as that muscular fellow's! Drat, and I kind of fancied the idea of that being a bun. Ah well.

:(

[cleuchtturm]

Having thick hair really isn't helping here...

[Kelly]

Neanderthals (and other early hominids) were known for having noticeable brow ridges (both men and women). Here is a reconstruction of a Neanderthal woman:

Many humans, especially adult Eurasian males, also have brow ridges. Here are two comparisons of skulls of men and women, showing the brow ridge on the male in both examples:

Something for readers to check—do you have brow ridges? I wonder if humans who have Neanderthal DNA have brow ridges and not those without Neanderthal DNA?

Just wondering.

*is still fascinated by all of this*

Also, were a Neanderthal to walk down the street dressed in 21st Century clothes, likely, they would not stick out. They would likely be taken for another modern human (homo sapiens). Their voices would be different (as previously mentioned) but they did not look much different from us.

[Tanwen]

Definitely a throw back...explains a lot! :D

[Qutenkuddly]

Neanderthals (and other early hominids) were known for having noticeable brow ridges (both men and women). Here is a reconstruction of a Neanderthal woman:

Many humans, especially adult Eurasian males, also have brow ridges. Here are two comparisons of skulls of men and women, showing the brow ridge on the male in both examples:

Something for readers to check—do you have brow ridges? I wonder if humans who have Neanderthal DNA have brow ridges and not those without Neanderthal DNA?

Just wondering.

*is still fascinated by all of this*

Also, were a Neanderthal to walk down the street dressed in 21st Century clothes, likely, they would not stick out. They would likely be taken for another modern human (homo sapiens). Their voices would be different (as previously mentioned) but they did not look much different from us.

Most, if not all, male skulls have brow ridges; it's one of the ways forensics can determine if it's a male or female skull (if I recall correctly). Neanderthal skulls had pronounced brow ridges, but I don't think that having more prominent than average brow ridges would necessarily be indicative of Neanderthal stock.

[5_♦♣]

Having thick hair really isn't helping here...

Having hair, period doesn't help.

[seneca]

I could cite examples of Neanderthals walking among us, but that would be getting into politics...

[sonofzeal]

I could cite examples of Neanderthals walking among us, but that would be getting into politics...

Hey now! The best evidence I've heard (others may know better) suggests Neanderthals were the cognitive equals of anyone else around at the time (evidence of language, culture, and symbolic reasoning), and had a larger brain capacity than most. I'd bet money on a Neanderthal being roughly the intellectual equal of a modern human, if given the benefits of modern food and toys and socializations. Let's have no more slurs against my (possible) ancestors!

[Jadelinne]

I've heard in an anthropology lesson that all males share 1% of DNA with Neanderthals - apparently it's all inthe Y chromosome :)

[Zadok]

Cool. I've had it all my life and never knew what it meant.

I heard there was quite some interbreeding between Cro-Magnon and Neanderthals:)

I've heard in an anthropology lesson that all males share 1% of DNA with Neanderthals - apparently it's all inthe Y chromosome :)

1% seems a bit low. Didn't we already share half our DNA with a banana? I guess it would be more like ~90% of our DNA, but I do remember hearing men have more NeanderthalerDNA than women.

[Næt.]

I've just spent the last ten minutes poking the back of my head.

If you want my, entirely uneducated, opinion on the Neanderthals, I reckon we murdered, enslaved and/or ran them out of their territory. It does rather seem to be our modus operandi.

[Sally]

I've just spent the last ten minutes poking the back of my head.

If you want my, entirely uneducated, opinion on the Neanderthals, I reckon we murdered, enslaved and/or ran them out of their territory. It does rather seem to be our modus operandi.

And while enslaving them, we bred with them, probably against their wishes, as in the US South.