How much of a deal-breaker is sex?

[Guest]

it is not OK to demand, coerce, or pressure anyone at anytime for any kind of sex.

True or False?

This is a discussion question from a Sexual Harassment training program.

It's wonderful that you cherry-pick coercion from those three and base your following arguments on its definition, entirely ignoring how people demand things of and pressure others.

And Skullery anyway perhaps was using a more liberal understanding of coercion. Use your imagination, eh?

Not to mention that sexual harrassment training programs are targeted to people who are not in a mutually agreed upon sexual relationship. The way your boss interacts with you sexually and the way your husband interacts with you sexually are not and should not be the same.

[Lady Girl]

Yeah...he'll never love it, and I'm having a really hard time with that today. I wish I could be celibate and, well you know, just wish I could.

If it makes you feel any better, I got sad/upset last night and ended up sleeping on the couch. It wasn't that hole-in-my-soul sad though, thank god (you know you'd have gotten a text if it was), because I noticed it right away and distracted myself, but yeah. We work with what we got, that's all anyone can do!

Having you around makes me feel better. Thanks for being here.

I think we can all relate to that feeling that won't go away completely and is worse sometimes than others: "If only...". If only my partner whom I dearly love felt the same way I do, but because he/she doesn't, something will always be missing.

Thanks Sally, I was kinda down...it helps that people know why. It really helps to have friends here.

[The Bearded One]

Yes, eamonn and SkulleryMaid, you understand my thoughts and my life better than I do. Thank you for you insights. Silly of me to think my ideas had any merit. You are right and I am wrong. Does this meet your needs?

I didn't intend, eamonn, to present an argument in my previous post. I thought I was stating my thoughts about my life. I did ask SkulleryMaid for a source of information, since I am unaware that she knows me personally. I appreciate the correction.

SkulleryMaid, would you like me to correct my coworkers at our next training session? They're a pretty stubborn bunch, but I'll try if you want me to.

At least five couples have worked where I do. In one case, one person worked directly for the other.

[Vampyremage]

I think there might be something of a disconnect here between the idea of coercion and the idea of discussion and negotiation and when it comes to something sensitive like sex, that can be a fine line to walk. One partner expression that sex is one of their needs in a relationship is not coercion. Both partners working together to find a balance of the sexual needs of both partners is not coercion, even if those needs differ in a fairly radical way.

The line can be a delicate one because the sexual partner expression their sexual needs might feel like some manner of coercion to the asexual partner, depending on their relationship with sex and the dynamics of their relationship with their partner. Implicit in stating that sex is a need is the idea that if that need can't be met, they could leave the relationship. When strong feelings are involved, that can feel like something of an ultimatum and perhaps in some ways it is. One should not be expected to remain in a relationship in which their needs are not being met, and that includes sexual needs and also pertains to sexual and asexual partners alike.

I think its unfair, however, to label the expression of one's needs as coercion. Everyone, sexual and asexual alike, have their needs and it should not be considered coercive to express the fact that if their needs are not being met that they may end the relationship. If those needs were anything other than sexual in nature, would such be considered pressure and coercion? Most would say no, so why should sexual needs be any different?

[Kitty Spoon Train]

I think there might be something of a disconnect here between the idea of coercion and the idea of discussion and negotiation and when it comes to something sensitive like sex, that can be a fine line to walk. One partner expression that sex is one of their needs in a relationship is not coercion. Both partners working together to find a balance of the sexual needs of both partners is not coercion, even if those needs differ in a fairly radical way.

The line can be a delicate one because the sexual partner expression their sexual needs might feel like some manner of coercion to the asexual partner, depending on their relationship with sex and the dynamics of their relationship with their partner. Implicit in stating that sex is a need is the idea that if that need can't be met, they could leave the relationship. When strong feelings are involved, that can feel like something of an ultimatum and perhaps in some ways it is. One should not be expected to remain in a relationship in which their needs are not being met, and that includes sexual needs and also pertains to sexual and asexual partners alike.

I think its unfair, however, to label the expression of one's needs as coercion. Everyone, sexual and asexual alike, have their needs and it should not be considered coercive to express the fact that if their needs are not being met that they may end the relationship. If those needs were anything other than sexual in nature, would such be considered pressure and coercion? Most would say no, so why should sexual needs be any different?

Awesomely put! :)

[Sally]

I think there might be something of a disconnect here between the idea of coercion and the idea of discussion and negotiation and when it comes to something sensitive like sex, that can be a fine line to walk. One partner expression that sex is one of their needs in a relationship is not coercion. Both partners working together to find a balance of the sexual needs of both partners is not coercion, even if those needs differ in a fairly radical way.

The line can be a delicate one because the sexual partner expression their sexual needs might feel like some manner of coercion to the asexual partner, depending on their relationship with sex and the dynamics of their relationship with their partner. Implicit in stating that sex is a need is the idea that if that need can't be met, they could leave the relationship. When strong feelings are involved, that can feel like something of an ultimatum and perhaps in some ways it is. One should not be expected to remain in a relationship in which their needs are not being met, and that includes sexual needs and also pertains to sexual and asexual partners alike.

I think its unfair, however, to label the expression of one's needs as coercion. Everyone, sexual and asexual alike, have their needs and it should not be considered coercive to express the fact that if their needs are not being met that they may end the relationship. If those needs were anything other than sexual in nature, would such be considered pressure and coercion? Most would say no, so why should sexual needs be any different?

Awesomely put! :)

Indeed! , Vamp!

[The Bearded One]

I agree with vampyremage (possibly with minor reservations).

I think its unfair, however, to label the expression of one's needs as coercion.

I agree. I think it's ridiculous.

Everyone, sexual and asexual alike, have their needs and it should not be considered coercive to express the fact that if their needs are not being met that they may end the relationship.

I don't consider respectfully expressing needs and stating consequences coercive. Does anyone?

If those needs were anything other than sexual in nature, would such be considered pressure and coercion? Most would say no, so why should sexual needs be any different?

I don't support a double standard with respect to pressure and coercion. If they're not acceptable in general, I think they're not acceptable whether the issue is sex or taking out the trash. If sex is "special" it merely increases the intensity of the issue. I think the only person that can validly decide what is pressure or coercion is the person receiving it.

[eamonn]

Vampyremage is of course precisely correct (except about pressure, coercion and demands being solely sexual in nature). But Skullery explicitly mentioned coercion, demands and pressuring, and you just picked the first one and ran with it. No-one said that all negotiations in a relationship are coercive, but you stepped in to rebut it anyway.

Yes, eamonn and SkulleryMaid, you understand my thoughts and my life better than I do. Thank you for you insights. Silly of me to think my ideas had any merit. You are right and I am wrong. Does this meet your needs?

Snore. The point isn't that either one of us is right and can speak for the other's life experiences. The point is that what Skullery says is equally true for her (and possibly many others) as what you said is for you. The point is that you're failing to take your own advice and making an argument where there is none.

Wait, it turns out I was wrong. It was not Skullery who mentioned those things, it was you, in your question. So you ignored things that you yourself raised.

[The Bearded One]

I didn't define "demand" or "pressure" because I thought we were using the words to mean the same thing (more or less).

Will it make my posts more understandable for anyone if I define them?

Skullery said "we all" which I mistakenly thought included me?

Skullery used the word "you" 6 times which I mistakenly thought included me?

Skullery suggested something about "may not be the right way to consider sex"

which again I mistakenly thought was applied to my thoughts?

Skullery mentioned "most people". Out of the 7 billion on this planet?

Lastly, the original question was not mine. I gave a source. Am I mistaken about that too?

I appreciate your explanation that none of the things Skullery said actually apply to me.

I'm going to brush up on second person pronouns, now.

[eamonn]

You're right. I've been angry, and have let it cloud my judgement.

As for this, though:

I didn't define "demand" or "pressure" because I thought we were using the words to mean the same thing (more or less).

Will it make my posts more understandable for anyone if I define them?

Yes, it might. Again, I think more liberal understandings of "pressure," "demand," and "coercion" are called for. Strong coercion - actively threatening or forcing one's partner - is probably fairly uncommon (and I agree that it is not acceptable).

Skullery's point was, I think, that sex is one of the things in (most) relationships that requires negotiation between both partners; in any such thing, each person has certain interests that the other may not share - hence demands and pressures and so on.

These things can apply to things as trivial as leaving the toilet seat up.

[Vampyremage]

Vampyremage is of course precisely correct (except about pressure, coercion and demands being solely sexual in nature). But Skullery explicitly mentioned coercion, demands and pressuring, and you just picked the first one and ran with it. No-one said that all negotiations in a relationship are coercive, but you stepped in to rebut it anyway.

Oops. If I gave the impression that such was exclusively sexual in nature, that wasn't the impression I meant to give. I understand coercion can take many forms regarding many different things, I was simply focusing on the sexual aspect.

[eamonn]

Vampyremage is of course precisely correct (except about pressure, coercion and demands being solely sexual in nature). But Skullery explicitly mentioned coercion, demands and pressuring, and you just picked the first one and ran with it. No-one said that all negotiations in a relationship are coercive, but you stepped in to rebut it anyway.

Oops. If I gave the impression that such was exclusively sexual in nature, that wasn't the impression I meant to give. I understand coercion can take many forms regarding many different things, I was simply focusing on the sexual aspect.

Wait, wait, I misunderstood, actually. You weren't giving that impression, actually.

There must be something wrong with my head today...

[Guest]

I didn't define "demand" or "pressure" because I thought we were using the words to mean the same thing (more or less).

Will it make my posts more understandable for anyone if I define them?

Skullery said "we all" which I mistakenly thought included me?

Skullery used the word "you" 6 times which I mistakenly thought included me?

Skullery suggested something about "may not be the right way to consider sex"

which again I mistakenly thought was applied to my thoughts?

Skullery mentioned "most people". Out of the 7 billion on this planet?

Lastly, the original question was not mine. I gave a source. Am I mistaken about that too?

I appreciate your explanation that none of the things Skullery said actually apply to me.

I'm going to brush up on second person pronouns, now.

I stand by what I said.

[The Bearded One]

I'm angry about this issue, too. My reasons were previously posted.

Demand means to ask for urgently or peremptorily as if by right.

Pressure means to persuade or coerce someone into doing something.

These things can apply to things as trivial as leaving the toilet seat up.

Exactly so.

I stand by what I said.

As well you should. :)

[Lady Girl]

I'm angry about this issue, too. My reasons were previously posted.

Demand means to ask for urgently or peremptorily as if by right.

Pressure means to persuade or coerce someone into doing something.

These things can apply to things as trivial as leaving the toilet seat up.

Exactly so.

I stand by what I said.

As well you should. :)

I still say, if you don't think the person marrying you has a right to expect sex, you really better say so in the promises you make to each other, that is, in the vows you take.

I feel you are on a mission to make the sexual partners of asexuals just feel really awful.

[Guest]

I'm trying to figure out if we're using different definitions of the same words.

If you're using "pressure" to mean "persuade or coerce", then you and I are using it the same way. My argument is that if you're in an emotional relationship with someone, if they say "hey, I really want this to be happy", that is pressure, and I don't see any way around that. In fact, I think any healthy relationship contains a lot of that sort of pressure, because ideally both partners feel comfortable enough to be completely honest about their desires. However, the simple act of being honest and open does create pressure on the other person.

It is self-enforced pressure, I suppose... I want to make my partner happy for two reasons: 1) I love her and selflessly want her to be happy, and 2) I want her to stay with ne, so I selfishly want her to be happy so she keeps making me happy.

Either way, I feel pressure to do things that make her happy.

[The Bearded One]

I feel you are on a mission to make the sexual partners of asexuals just feel really awful.

You have told me a bit about your life. I am in awe of your capacity to love, and your loyalty to your husband. I would like to think of myself as a big enough person to live the life you are living, but I know I am not.

My comments were not intended as an attack on you, or to hurt you. I understand and agree with you if that's how they seem.

When it comes to the importance of willingness in relationships, we disagree. I think of people as individuals. I don't think of them as categories such as Girl and Guy, Black and White, Jews and Christians, or Sexuals and Asexuals.

Tell me that I should not try to speak for the people I know who have been raped or killed, and I will stop.

It's your call, Lady Girl.

Many and Wonderful are the Mysteries of the Gods.

...and the Greatest of these are people.

[Guest]

I'm sad that you didn't reply to me, Bearded. Do you agree or disagree with my post? Are you making any allowances or differentiating between internal and external pressures? I think this is a worthwhile topic because "pressure" is a big deal on both sides... sexuals don't (generally) like putting on pressure, and our asexuals don't like feeling pressure, which makes this highly relevant.

[Vampyremage]

Tell me that I should not try to speak for the people I know who have been raped or killed, and I will stop.

This comment right here tells me that there is still some sort of disconnect in terminology coming into play here. Neither Lady Girl nor Skullery nor the vast majority of sexual partners fall anywhere near this category and were I a sexual partner, I would be rather offended at the suggestion that the two are similar.

Pressure is something that is always going to be a part of any relationship, even if it is just the pressure to make one's partner happy and content. If one loves someone, there is going to be that pressure, implicit or explicit, to do what they can to make their partner happy. Contrary to popular belief, I think, there can be both positive and negative pressure but there is no way to eliminate that pressure entirely. If sex is something that is a need for one partner in a relationship, simply expressing that as a need is going to cause some pressure if only for the fact that the asexual partner (I'm assuming here) loves their sexual partner and wants them to be happy. Having an in depth conversation about sex and about the minimum amount or type that is going to fulfill that sexual need to the extent that the sexual partner is willing to remain in that relationship is going to cause pressure for the same reasons. For that matter, the asexual partner having the same conversation coming from the opposite perspective of having a need not to have sex as a part of the relationship is also going to cause pressure in a very similar manner.

I have been in sexual relationships before and I have experienced that pressure. Because I loved my partners and wanted them to be happy and knew sex was a need of theirs, that pressure was there to try and fulfill that need. Again, however, I think there is a difference between positive and negative pressure. The pressure to negotiate those things that need negotiating in order to make a loving relationship continue to work is largely positive pressure. When the loving aspect and the negotiation aspect involving both partners and the needs of both partners is removed, I think that's when the pressure turns negative. Negotiating sexual needs should not be equated to rape or murder unless there is something far more extreme and abnormal going on.

[Guest]

Tell me that I should not try to speak for the people I know who have been raped or killed, and I will stop.

I have been in sexual relationships before and I have experienced that pressure. Because I loved my partners and wanted them to be happy and knew sex was a need of theirs, that pressure was there to try and fulfill that need. Again, however, I think there is a difference between positive and negative pressure. The pressure to negotiate those things that need negotiating in order to make a loving relationship continue to work is largely positive pressure. When the loving aspect and the negotiation aspect involving both partners and the needs of both partners is removed, I think that's when the pressure turns negative. Negotiating sexual needs should not be equated to rape or murder unless there is something far more extreme and abnormal going on.

Good pressure vs. Bad pressure... thank you for stating outright what many posts have been dancing around. Yes, some pressure is good. Lord knows I'd get nothing done at work if I didn't have the pressure of time constraints and the need to earn enough money to live. That's good pressure because it encourages me to function (somewhat) efficiently. Thinking in terms of the relationship... I am a very quiet person IRL. I don't babble, I don't like small talk, and I sometimes get stuck in my chatty head and forget to chat out loud. I sometimes forget to communicate properly... one thing in particular that bugs my partner is that I'll make plans with someone a week ahead of time but forget to tell her until the moment before. I'm also really bad at relaying those "how was your day" stories. But I feel pressure to communicate this information that seems meaningless to me, because the communication really does improve our relationship and her mental health. It's good pressure because it encourages me to do something that benefits me, her, and our relationship.

[The Bearded One]

I agree with your 12:43 PM post, SkulleryMaid. I am pretty non-verbal, and it took me almost an hour to enter the post to Lady Girl. Yours came up while I was typing, and I missed it until a few minutes ago.

Pressure is definitely a worthwhile topic. Pressure can be very subtle. I am aware of the difference between internal and external pressure, but I haven't been taking it into consideration. Thanks for bringing it up. Inadvertent pressure is also possible. That is why I think that only the person receiving the pressure can decide that's what it is, and if they don't, or can't communicate that, no one else may ever know. So with people I am close to I tell them that if anything I do bothers, or pressures them, I want to know. This doesn't always work either, of course, because some things are very difficult to "talk" about (most of my talking is actually nonverbal).

Another thing I should say is I'm talking about standards, or ideals. Real people that are part of real couples can and should modify ideals to fit their circumstances, and what ideals (if any) they live by are their choice as well. Also, I am not perfect, and I have actually pressured a girlfriend a few times about sex, myself. It was something to do with holding hands (many people might say "only holding hands" or "that's not sex", but I'm not many people :) ) and I do regret it. I try not to do things I may regret later. ;)

{this post took 45 minutes}

[Guest]

I agree with your 12:43 PM post, SkulleryMaid. I am pretty non-verbal, and it took me almost an hour to enter the post to Lady Girl. Yours came up while I was typing, and I missed it until a few minutes ago.

Pressure is definitely a worthwhile topic. Pressure can be very subtle. I am aware of the difference between internal and external pressure, but I haven't been taking it into consideration. Thanks for bringing it up. Inadvertent pressure is also possible. That is why I think that only the person receiving the pressure can decide that's what it is, and if they don't, or can't communicate that, no one else may ever know. So with people I am close to I tell them that if anything I do bothers, or pressures them, I want to know. This doesn't always work either, of course, because some things are very difficult to "talk" about (most of my talking is actually nonverbal).

Another thing I should say is I'm talking about standards, or ideals. Real people that are part of real couples can and should modify ideals to fit their circumstances, and what ideals (if any) they live by are their choice as well. Also, I am not perfect, and I have actually pressured a girlfriend a few times about sex, myself. It was something to do with holding hands (many people might say "only holding hands" or "that's not sex", but I'm not many people :) ) and I do regret it. I try not to do things I may regret later. ;)

{this post took 45 minutes}

I have no disagreement here. The only thing I'd say is that I do think you're putting slightly too much responsibility on one half of the partnership. I've said many times on AVEN that my partner sometimes gets frustrated with me because I try so hard not to pressure her that I end up avoiding situations that would have been OK with her. She always says that she's a grown-ass woman and can stick up for herself, she doesn't need me to beat myself up over it. And you know what? She's totally right. If I were to say "i want to have sex now!" in a whiny, obnoxious voice (not that I ever would), she's totally willing and able to say NO all by herself. I think it's harmful to a relationship to put too much responsibility on any one partner in deciding how the other person feels.

tl;dr... if your partner tells you that saying x, y, or z makes them feel pressured, OK. Don't say those things. But barring extreme and obvious situations of abuse, I think its best to let each person represent their own interests rather than expect the first partner to guess about when the second partner may feel pressured.

[eamonn]

Tell me that I should not try to speak for the people I know who have been raped or killed, and I will stop.

This comment right here tells me that there is still some sort of disconnect in terminology coming into play here. Neither Lady Girl nor Skullery nor the vast majority of sexual partners fall anywhere near this category and were I a sexual partner, I would be rather offended at the suggestion that the two are similar.

Bullseye. I've had in mind a very different kind of pressure, like the one you go on to talk about, and agree with Skullery on it. It's part of every relationship.

[Lady Girl]

Tell me that I should not try to speak for the people I know who have been raped or killed, and I will stop.

This comment right here tells me that there is still some sort of disconnect in terminology coming into play here. Neither Lady Girl nor Skullery nor the vast majority of sexual partners fall anywhere near this category and were I a sexual partner, I would be rather offended at the suggestion that the two are similar.

Pressure is something that is always going to be a part of any relationship, even if it is just the pressure to make one's partner happy and content.

I have been in sexual relationships before and I have experienced that pressure. Because I loved my partners and wanted them to be happy and knew sex was a need of theirs, that pressure was there to try and fulfill that need. Again, however, I think there is a difference between positive and negative pressure. The pressure to negotiate those things that need negotiating in order to make a loving relationship continue to work is largely positive pressure. When the loving aspect and the negotiation aspect involving both partners and the needs of both partners is removed, I think that's when the pressure turns negative. Negotiating sexual needs should not be equated to rape or murder unless there is something far more extreme and abnormal going on.

There is some sort of disconnect because I would never tell you to not speak for the people who've been raped or killed. As Vamp expressed it is not the right comparison.

To be quite honest with you Bearded One, your comments over the past few days have contributed to a very distressed and sad feeling that overcame me. In fact, I could even say that you have been applying a fair amount of pressure to me concerning this issue. I in turn probably applied pressure to my husband to comfort me for my increasing sadness, just by being sad around him.

I see you have posted again and I appreciate what you've said, I actually appreciated what you said earlier as well. I think you realize that for me in my situation, my husband and I are both succumbing to some pressure from each other to be and make the other as comfortable and happy as we possibly can. I do believe Skulls and I both feel pressure, just as much as our asexual partners do. I don't know how to describe it except sometimes it feels like being asked not to smile when you're really happy and there's no reason not to. But yeah, please don't smile ok?

[The Bearded One]

The people I know were raped or killed because others felt or thought they had a right to sex or to a sexually exclusive relationship. This is an association in my mind I have been keeping to myself. There is no reason for anyone on AVEN to be offended by my opposition to unwilling sex or unwilling exclusive relationships unless those persons are willing to rape or kill for these reasons. I am not trying to convert others to my point of view (well, not much, anyway). I also see no reason to say I uphold the right of people to have sex with unwilling partners or keep significant others in exclusive relationships against their will when in fact I do not. I will drop the whole issue if Lady Girl asks, as I have said.

This issue is not an Asexual versus Sexual one. It is a people one. In one case it was a medium sex drive person in a couple with a high sex drive person. I don't know the actually sexual details in most of these cases, nor do I think they are relevant. Everyone is an individual.

This was written before your latest post, Lady Girl. I will drop it. I feel sad about the whole issue, too.

[Guest]

There is no reason for anyone on AVEN to be offended by my opposition to unwilling sex or unwilling exclusive relationships unless those persons are willing to rape or kill for these reasons.

With all due respect, there's also no reason for you to bring it up unless there seems evidence that someone here is willing to rape or kill for sex. And there is no evidence of that here, which makes the continued focus on rape and murder... well, suspect, to say the least.

This was written before your latest post, Lady Girl. I will drop it. I feel sad about the whole issue, too.

And... we're all posting at the same time and overlapping. Sorry. Subject dropped!

[Lady Girl]

Thank you Bearded One. I don't think we need to argue about this, as I think we all feel the same way actually.

[eamonn]

I feel that taking this to the level of rape is like taking a discussion about getting angry at people to the level of serial killing.

In that, I know people do it, and it's terrible, but I'm talking here about an altogether less extreme kind of pressure.

[The Bearded One]

Simply by way of explanation, my mind is highly associative. Quite often, I feel or see strong connections between things that for others are only slightly related, or not related at all. Of course, I usually don't grasp how others minds are organized (mine seldom has any organization) until they explain things to me, and then I often have to ask for short words and simply sentences. ;)

[test account]

Marriage vows frequently (not always) include "...in sickness and in heath...until death."

Does not sickness imply inability to provide sex?

I am recovering from a not good 5 year relationship with someone who told me they were a friend while they treated me like a lover. I'm pretty nonverbal, so sometimes I miss fine distinctions in what other people say. How do non-negotiable expectations differ from demands?

Oh you too huh? The old "we're just friends" while they want to drag you off to the bedroom every time you see them? I think that behaviour is unforgivable and selfish. How did you tolerate it for five years?

An expectation can mean two things.

1. A demand "I expect you to do your homework and clean your room."

2. An anticipation "I expect it will be a lovely day tomorrow so I'm going out."

I was using the second meaning regarding marriage and the expectation of sex. Marriage provides a secure relationship for ongoing sex besides other things. You need to tell a person if you don't plan to offer that because most people anticipate sex as part of the relationship.

If you're married and discover in time that you can't have sex, that's something you have to work out. I don't personally put much weight on the traditional vows because few people live up to them and I think they're a bit extreme. I would vow something like "I offer you my heart, my hands, my love, my support, to the exclusion of all other lovers for as long as we share a bond of mutual affection and trust. May it last my whole life long, as long as you are alive, that I may be your consolation in your final years, and you mine." That to me would underscore the importance of keeping the bond alive, because without it, we don't really have a marriage. So when it comes to one of us being unable to have sex anymore, it would depend on why. If we aren't attracted to each other that way, that could be ground to call it quits, or it might be enough to be loved in other ways. It all depends.

I broke up with my first boyfriend because I was repulsed by the thought of having sex with him. I'm not asexual, I just found him physically repulsive. I could hardly tell him that though, so I told him I loved him as a brother. We're still friends and he has a girlfriend (who I also find physically repulsive interestingly). I'm glad he's happy. I personally did not see how I could have a marriage without enjoying sex, if sex was anticipated. I also think it depends a lot on the person you're with as to whether you enjoy it. I loved sex with my ex-lover, even though he strung me along, because he was clean, compact, and sensual. It was a fantasy. I hope I've grown up a bit since then. Marriage has to provide something more substantial than a fantasy if it's going to be happy and lasting.