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Welcome to Heavy Bananarama, a place to connect with other 1980s-inspired people for serious chat on serious topics. This is an offshoot of the 30-something thread found in the Older forum, a light-hearted chat style thread. Got something to say about family issues, philosophy, religion, life experiences? Then this thread is for you.

While the topics are serious and may at times be controversial, please note that this is not a Hot Box thread. This is a place for sharing and understanding.

Get typing people!

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Beachwalker

Oh for fucks sake can't anyone come up with anything heavy? How's this I am tired and need a break but to have a break I have to send my foster children to stay with people they don't know. I have requested a week of but feel sick at the thought but also know I really need a breather. I hate myself at times like this.

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Perhaps this was addressed prior to foster care, but I can't help but wonder why none of the extended family didn't step up to the plate?

You have so much on your plate with the extension of the foster care plus decisions regarding your work. That's pretty heavy duty. What visions do you have for 5 years from now?

Lucinda

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Here's a thought-provoking discussion pulled from the 30-something thread:

I shall leave you with a quote I have been thinking about from a book I'm reading.We have some budding psychologists on this thread,so it may be something for them.

Conscience is the window of our spirit,evil is the curtain.

That quote sounds like we have a curtain of evil over our conscience which conceals our spirit. So I guess its saying we can't let people see our precious and wonderful spirit because evil thoughts and actions get in the way of how we exercise our conscience?

The Woman who came up with the quote is the author of the book I'm reading "The Sociopath next door".Her belief and mine also,as it is a subject close to my heart,is that a sociopath doesn't have a conscience.His sole purpose in life is to do everything he can for himself.Wether he is a bullying P.E. teacher getting his kicks out of humiliating the not-so-in-shape shy kid,or the powerfull head of a global multi-billion company,who screws every one over to get to the top,they just don't care about anybody.No guilt,no remorse.Capable of anything and everything.The people in their lives are just their possessions.T own and piss on.They like it.Most people have a conscience,no matter what,they will feel all sorts of compassion,guilt,remorse or grief,multiple times throughout there lives.They have a conscience.They value human life.

The evil pulls the curtain over our conscience?

Further comments?

Lucinda

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Beachy, this does seem rather unfortunate, and quite a difficult decision to make...it certainly shows that you have a conscience. I do hope you get your much needed break, as everyone needs one from the duties of caregiving.

I find the topic of conscience fascinating. One of my initial thoughts about it is in the construction of the word. I think it's interesting that we have a conscience (and almost everyone seems to acknowledge it and what it stands for...the inner sense of what's right or wrong in one's own conduct or motives), but not a proscience.

Does this really mean that something in us is against (con) science...or that science does not acknowledge this sense in us because it cannot be measured, weighed, or studied in the scientist's typical observable manner?

I realize that the prefix may also mean with or together with...however not typically in our minds I suppose.

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I was told that con-science means 'with knowledge', because 'science' means 'knowledge'. I never bothered to check for references though. In church we had this drilled into us. We were told that if we have knowledge of God's commandments, then we are under obligation to behave 'with knowledge'. That was what it meant to exercise a good conscience. Because people talk of having a bad conscience too--which was explained to me as behaving contrary to the knowledge you have.

In real terms, it does kind of work that way I think. We have knowledge of how things should be if everything is working 'right'. If we don't act in harmony with that knowledge, we feel bad. Our conscience, our 'with knowledge' mechanism, prods us.

One of my biggest issues over the years has been overhauling my knowledge base so that my conscience has a rule book that makes sense to me. It's not always appropriate to follow your conscience I've found, because it can base its judgments on unhealthy rules.

This makes a good deal of sense. I like the way you think, and I have merely forgotten some of those initial definitions even though they drilled me too. The reality of examining my daily conduct never slipped away though. I like the activity involved in an active conscience, even if it makes me feel personally sad because I behaved in an unloving manner.

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I was told that con-science means 'with knowledge', because 'science' means 'knowledge'. I never bothered to check for references though. In church we had this drilled into us. We were told that if we have knowledge of God's commandments, then we are under obligation to behave 'with knowledge'. That was what it meant to exercise a good conscience. Because people talk of having a bad conscience too--which was explained to me as behaving contrary to the knowledge you have.

Your church was/is right. Science does mean knowledge, I just looked it up in the dictionary. The full definition: A branch of knowledge conducted on objective principles involving the systematized observation of and experiments with phenomena, especially concerned with the material and functions of the physical universe.

(Which makes the PPS forum rather redundant, since knowledge is covered under the second branch of philosophy: Epistemology).

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Sociopaths, eh? My dad is a sociopath in the technical sense. You can more or less round it up to not having a conscience. He is 100% internally controlled. he is easily the smartest person I've ever met but there are certain things he really doesn't understand. Like emotions. It boggles his mind when people get their feelings hurt. He literally has no basis for understanding.

He was a very tough dad. He was emotionally and verbally abusive and he was sexually abusive to my mom. He cheated on her a lot too... I remember one time he picked up a girl hitchhiker on the side of the road and dropped me off so he could bang her. Another time he had his mistress stay at our house when my mom was on a business trip. He demanded excellence from me because I outperformed my brother, but when I hit puberty all hell started to break loose. I ended up not speaking to him for years. We're close now... his current wife (wife # 5) is good for him. She makes him understand that he has to behave in a certain way... even if it doesn't make sense to him, she is teaching him to accept at face value other people's emotions. I really think he's always thought it was nothing more than manipulation to claim hurt feelings or depression.

Anyway. Sociopath isn't the same thing as criminal and it isn't the same thing as serial killer. We use them interchangeably, but just because someone is sociopathic doesn't mean they're ever going to do anything bad. My dad wasn't the greatest guy in the world (although he really is now)... but he wasn't particularly worse than a lot of other people's dads. He has a very strong sense of morality, it's just that his idea of right and wrong aren't in any way contingent on the rest of the world's beliefs... or at least, it wasn't... but there's nothing about being sociopathic that precludes someone from learning the proper ways to behave. It's kind of like asexuality... you may be missing that sexual attraction element but that doesn't mean you can't learn to love "that's what she said" jokes.

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Midnight Lady

Well, there is another book our prof talked about (I didn't read it though). Snakes in suits. Something like that. A very metaphorical name.

But sociopaths also have their use. Can you imagine what it is like to be the head of the battalion, for example, at war. (today there are so many war zones). And every day they have to send their people sometimes to death. Sensitive and empathetic people would die there right away (or go crazy). Only those who can switch off all humane traits can survive in those conditions. Or being the head of a huge corporation. How will they sleep at night when they know that they have just laid off 10000 of people who don't have jobs anymore? And such things do happen every day - the worlds of business, politics, military are extra cruel. If someone wants to survive there, they need to forget their kindness, because these things are unavoidable (firing people, sending them to death, depriving them of housing and other privileges).

Or lawyers... We talked about them... How can they sleep at night after they have defended someone like Ted Bandi?... It must be really hard for them... But it is their duty: they have to protect even someone like Ted Bandi.

So, the lack of empathy can be beneficial for survival. Another thing is that some people, like me, know that they will never even want to approach those worlds... But someone should do those jobs... So, controversial...

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Midnight Lady

Agreed, they're not necessarily serial killers. My father is also a sociopath. He wouldn't have the guts to do anything like that. And while I've seen him learn, by force really, to conduct himself in more socially acceptible ways, it is never due to his desire to please people in my opinion, because he'll drop the act as soon as it becomes inconvenient to him. We all necessarily put ourselves first, but for most of us, part of what matters to us is that we support and protect the emotional security of other people. Not so with sociopaths, so they don't have that impetus to moderate their behaviour. If they aren't pretty much bullied into behaving themselves, they won't care what they do to anyone, even their own kids, which is counter-intuitive to most people. It makes no sense to tear up your own children. People could say mine was no worse than other dads, I disagree. He terrorized me with his confusing lack of empathy, his impenetrable heartless lack of concern for my well-being. When you depend on someone for your life, you need to know they don't hate you for it, or you start to hate yourself for being a burden on them. When you're a kid, that's a terrible way to feel. Its not like you can just go and get a job when you're seven. My father thought it was funny to tell me at that age to go sell myself on the street so he wouldn't have to support me. He may be a sociopath but that's no excuse for being an asshole in my book. :mellow:

Hm... are you sure it was more sociopathology than emotional/psychological sadism? One thing is to do things which you think are right for the well-being of someone/something (like business people or politicians - they do those things because they believe that they are good in the long run). But another thing is to torture someone just for the pleasure of doing that. Saying to a child to sell their body in the street reminds me of sadism (in MY books, of course...).

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Well, there is another book our prof talked about (I didn't read it though). Snakes in suits. Something like that. A very metaphorical name.

But sociopaths also have their use. Can you imagine what it is like to be the head of the battalion, for example, at war. (today there are so many war zones). And every day they have to send their people sometimes to death. Sensitive and empathetic people would die there right away (or go crazy). Only those who can switch off all humane traits can survive in those conditions. Or being the head of a huge corporation. How will they sleep at night when they know that they have just laid off 10000 of people who don't have jobs anymore? And such things do happen every day - the worlds of business, politics, military are extra cruel. If someone wants to survive there, they need to forget their kindness, because these things are unavoidable (firing people, sending them to death, depriving them of housing and other privileges).

Or lawyers... We talked about them... How can they sleep at night after they have defended someone like Ted Bandi?... It must be really hard for them... But it is their duty: they have to protect even someone like Ted Bandi.

So, the lack of empathy can be beneficial for survival. Another thing is that some people, like me, know that they will never even want to approach those worlds... But someone should do those jobs... So, controversial...

My guess is that commanders in wars feel similarly as lawyers. You try your best to cloak yourself in the philosophy of the job. In law, if you really, truly believe in the justice system... specifically that checks and balances work, and that everyone is entitled to a proper defense... it makes it easier to do your job. I have an intern (or did, she just graduated!) who was talking about practicing criminal law. She said she wasn't sure she could do it. I said I'd probably be fine with it, and she laughed and said "you sure would! You are a 'just the facts' kinda person." I'm sure I always was to an extent, but a lot of that is just learning what it takes to do your job. Law school is partially about learning the law, but it's at least as much about learning a new way to think and look at the world. My impression of the military is that it's similar... they entrench you in it for so long that it replaces your own morality/ philosophy.

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Midnight Lady

Well, there is another book our prof talked about (I didn't read it though). Snakes in suits. Something like that. A very metaphorical name.

But sociopaths also have their use. Can you imagine what it is like to be the head of the battalion, for example, at war. (today there are so many war zones). And every day they have to send their people sometimes to death. Sensitive and empathetic people would die there right away (or go crazy). Only those who can switch off all humane traits can survive in those conditions. Or being the head of a huge corporation. How will they sleep at night when they know that they have just laid off 10000 of people who don't have jobs anymore? And such things do happen every day - the worlds of business, politics, military are extra cruel. If someone wants to survive there, they need to forget their kindness, because these things are unavoidable (firing people, sending them to death, depriving them of housing and other privileges).

Or lawyers... We talked about them... How can they sleep at night after they have defended someone like Ted Bandi?... It must be really hard for them... But it is their duty: they have to protect even someone like Ted Bandi.

So, the lack of empathy can be beneficial for survival. Another thing is that some people, like me, know that they will never even want to approach those worlds... But someone should do those jobs... So, controversial...

My guess is that commanders in wars feel similarly as lawyers. You try your best to cloak yourself in the philosophy of the job. In law, if you really, truly believe in the justice system... specifically that checks and balances work, and that everyone is entitled to a proper defense... it makes it easier to do your job. I have an intern (or did, she just graduated!) who was talking about practicing criminal law. She said she wasn't sure she could do it. I said I'd probably be fine with it, and she laughed and said "you sure would! You are a 'just the facts' kinda person." I'm sure I always was to an extent, but a lot of that is just learning what it takes to do your job. Law school is partially about learning the law, but it's at least as much about learning a new way to think and look at the world. My impression of the military is that it's similar... they entrench you in it for so long that it replaces your own morality/ philosophy.

Yes, a good metaphor: they replace your own morality/philosophy. I guess for the corporations the same rule works. We talked also about those corporations which do harm to people (like experiments with toxic stuff, polluting the environment, and so on). Anything can go, as long as the person is able to find a good excuse for themselves. Then maybe, sociopaths are just very skilled in finding self-excuses.

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Midnight Lady

Well, there is another book our prof talked about (I didn't read it though). Snakes in suits. Something like that. A very metaphorical name.

But sociopaths also have their use. Can you imagine what it is like to be the head of the battalion, for example, at war. (today there are so many war zones). And every day they have to send their people sometimes to death. Sensitive and empathetic people would die there right away (or go crazy). Only those who can switch off all humane traits can survive in those conditions. Or being the head of a huge corporation. How will they sleep at night when they know that they have just laid off 10000 of people who don't have jobs anymore? And such things do happen every day - the worlds of business, politics, military are extra cruel. If someone wants to survive there, they need to forget their kindness, because these things are unavoidable (firing people, sending them to death, depriving them of housing and other privileges).

Or lawyers... We talked about them... How can they sleep at night after they have defended someone like Ted Bandi?... It must be really hard for them... But it is their duty: they have to protect even someone like Ted Bandi.

So, the lack of empathy can be beneficial for survival. Another thing is that some people, like me, know that they will never even want to approach those worlds... But someone should do those jobs... So, controversial...

Actually I don't think a person needs to be a sociopath to do those things. There is cognition of the greater good for someone who has that at heart. Laying off 100,000 workers today may mean that the business survives and so protects the jobs of the other 200,000 that remain. And in war, sending 10,000 soldiers to their deaths may mean saving the lives of 20,000 civilians. A person who isn't a sociopath will look for less costly ways to achieve the same things, I think, whereas a sociopath will stick to the old ways as long as he or she isn't personally affected by it.

Edit: Just thinking about it a bit more, it seems to me that it's the reason for the decision that makes a difference. Is the person playing for their own strategic advantage, or for the advantage of the majority? And when I say doing things for the good of the majority, I mean making the tough decisions which do require sacrifice, because there's more going on than first appears. That requires a lot of self-discipline to achieve I think.

But the person who is not a sociopath will suffer, no matter how good the decision was for the rest of the group. And it can actually be quite beneficial not to have empathy in these situations.

But of course, sociopaths are loaded with other characteristics, not just the lack of empathy.

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Midnight Lady

I see the suffering as a good thing. If we stop feeling the pain of others, are we really fit to lead them?

Well, do we want to lead them?

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Midnight Lady

There are always leaders. I'd rather they were compassionate people than sociopaths :)

That's why I don't want to be a leader. :) I am too soft for that. I can't see myself firing even a single person, even for the best of the whole company. I guess it is up to the leaders/managers now to say how they do it.

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CompassRose

Well, I wanted to put my two cents in, back about an hour ago. Then my browser crashed, and I got sidetracked. Now when I come back, I find that SweetEx has already made all my points. So I'll say goodnight, instead. :D

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Beachwalker

Perhaps this was addressed prior to foster care, but I can't help but wonder why none of the extended family didn't step up to the plate?

You have so much on your plate with the extension of the foster care plus decisions regarding your work. That's pretty heavy duty. What visions do you have for 5 years from now?

Lucinda

At this stage with these little boys it's hard to plan 5 minutes in advance. I would hope they are in my care still and that they never have to go back to where they came from and I would also hope access visits stop as much as I used to feel it was really important I have seen them suffer with nightmares and behavior regressions that now I don't feel the benefit outweighs the burdens. Their extended family sees them when it suits them, they were meant to be going to their nan for Easter but she advised the department yesterday she couldn't have them after all.

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There are always leaders. I'd rather they were compassionate people than sociopaths :)

Agreed on that. I make a bad leader because I'm... to quote Portishead... always so unsure. I could never lead troops to battle and be able to say "yes, this was the right decision and I have no doubt about it." I would doubt, regret, and worry myself to death.

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Midnight Lady

There are always leaders. I'd rather they were compassionate people than sociopaths :)

Agreed on that. I make a bad leader because I'm... to quote Portishead... always so unsure. I could never lead troops to battle and be able to say "yes, this was the right decision and I have no doubt about it." I would doubt, regret, and worry myself to death.

Well, let's hope they will have other candidates for those positions than you and me... ;)

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