Yaoi and Heteronormativity - possible TMI

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

Yes, I read yaoi. It's kinda trashy sometimes (being fair, most romance novel-style material written for women by women is), but other times it can be cute, sweet, sexy and overall real fun to read. However, I've noticed something quite...creepy about it. Mainly, that despite the stories being about the (often forbidden/melodramatic) love between two guys, the stories, relationship dynamics and even the LOOK of the whole thing is staggeringly heteronormative. And quite disturbing, too.

Firstly, there's how the characters look and act. Way more often than not, the Uke (bottom) is going to look or act like a woman or a young girl. He'll have large, cute eyes, a slim and delicate body and a more passive, shy or "cute" personality. Literally, they're usually so pretty that even IN STORY he's mistaken for a cute girl. This contrasts with the Seme (top), who'll often look like your average (albeit quite handsome) guy. Maybe a little more serious than most guys, but still recognisable as a guy. This is creepy, since it shows that even in gay male relationships, there MUST be a man and a woman. Unfortunately, this trait does cross over into shipping, with some people feminising whoever they think the Uke would be.

One other thing that's heteronormative - the fact that there are specific roles that aren't deviated from. The feminine one is always passive during sex, while the masculine one is always aggressive. The fact that these roles have specific terms with their specific meanings (Seme and Uke) shows how deeply ingrained this is into the genre. You never get switches, or couples who like to switch roles every now and again - once you're deemed to be the passive one, you're expected to be passive in all areas of the relationship, whether you like it or not. This isn't just heteronormative (with the idea that the "woman" is always sexually passive), but it actually reduces sex into something that's DONE to someone by someone else - it's not something that two people do together.

Speaking of "whether you like it or not"...I picked up a yaoi book recently, with four short stories and one side story involving the pair from an earlier story. Each story had a brief sex scene. Of these scenes, only ONE scene in the entire book DID NOT include the word "No" in the dialogue. You think real hard about that for a second. Out of five sex scenes, only ONE appeared to be completely, 100% consensual. All the others had either requests to stop (which were ignored) general indecision and/or nerves, or full-on non-consent. And let me tell you that that's NOT a trait exclusive to teh crappy book that I just bought - it's something that comes up A LOT in this genre. That's actually VERY disturbing, and what makes it even moreso is the fact that this relationship dynamic is inherent in the terms that are used - Seme means "attack" while uke means "defend". This is not only really creepy and wtf-inducing, but it demeans what rape actually IS. I know that marital rape didn't become a crime in Japan until fairly recently, but it's still a crime and it's not something that you do in any healthy relationship.

I DO like yaoi, but this is still enough to make me take a step back and think "what the hell am I reading?". But here's the thing, too - all yaoi stories are explicitly a fantasy only. They're not meant to reflect real life or real relationships, merely what the audience want and dream about. Does this, then, make the content within "okay"? Am I somehow betraying my own morals and views on heteronormativity (and how much I dislike it) by reading and liking these stories? And even if it is okay, why is it that this is the kind of thing that women are writing for other women? Why is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre? And does anyone else read and like yaoi, despite the above points?

[Nogitsune]

Yup, yaoi can be extremely creepy. Though there are stories that don't fall into the stereotype trap - or at least not completely. The last m/m anime I watched was No. 6, I think, and while one of the guys seems like the stereotypical "uke" at first glance, it turns out you really can't fit either of the two into such a restricting role at all. Also, they were adorable together and their relationship was actually a healthy one despite the screwed up circumstances - yay. And in some yaoi animes/mangas, there are unhealthy relationships that are in fact (mostly) treated as such. Yay for that, too.

I also agree that yaoi tends to be heteronormative, definitely because of the stereotypes, but also because the characters rarely even identify as gay or bi or pan. That's not always a problem in my eyes, but a "I'm a big strong seme and I like women but you are such a cute little damsel that I'll make an exception for you" vibe/line is just not awesome.

As for betraying one's morals by enoying problematic stuff... I don't feel that way, except if it's likely to affect someone else negatively. I probably wouldn't buy anything that contains a "no means yes" scenario, except maybe it was so over the top that I'd conclude that no one could ever internalize the stuff. I don't want to support that sort of culture. However, I've bought tons of non-yaoi fantasy books and computer games that I find deeply problematic, either by accident or because of the fact that if I only bought unproblematic things, I wouldn't get to buy much at all. At least with yaoi, I can ignore the underlying sexism, since there are usually so few women in it and it is actually aimed at me. It acknowledges women exist. It acknowledges we can like porn. That shouldn't be a big deal, but sadly, it is.

How "is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre", though? I don't think hentai or yuri (especially hentai) that is aimed at a male audience generally comes with more healthy relationships.

[The Honey Bear]

The whole seme/uke dynamic is definitely a modern thing. I remember reading Kaze to ki no uta, which is one of the earliest yaoi mangas from the 70's, and both of the boys were quite petite.

Serge and Gilbert

Though Gibert (blond) is the more feminine looking, he's definitely more sexually agressive. I was on a discussion forum and there were several people trying to figure out who was the seme and who was the uke- no decision was made, because, ultimately, those terms are ones we've made up recently.

Yaoi's found something that works for it and has stuck with it, but I have to say it's pretty boring. Why don't they try and mix things up a bit?

[Sennkestra]

Even as a pretty hardcore yaoi fan, I have to day, the genre as a whole has a LOT of really messed-up and problematic tropes - the whole "rape is love" thing, and the strict seme/uke roles, anal sex being the only real form of love, misogyny, not "really" being gay, and a lot of other nasty stuff. It gets on my nerves sometimes. But still, with that said, there are a lot of really good bl works that transcend these - and there are also some that have these problems, but are still really good. For what it's worth, a lot of fiction has problematic content, but being problematic doesn't make it any less engaging or interesting or well written. And there's a lot of things that I would not put up with in real life that I will be fine with in fiction - because in the end it is fiction, so no one in real life actually gets hurt. And as long as people realize that fiction≠real life, that's fine. It's like how people can be into rape fantasies but not actually want to be raped - fiction is different from reality.

But still, it is a problem that these tropes are SO prevalent, and that they get taken for granted by so many people. Like, when I find works that transcend the uke-seme dynamic, or that have uke's who aren't just girls with penises, or where characters have consensual, enjoyable sex without crying or pleading or dubcon....it's suprising and wonderful. But it's a lot rarer than it should be.

But still, I like it. And there are reasons for a lot of these tropes, which can get really interesting when you delve into them.

But yeah, bottom line for me is: Yes, I like yaoi, but I do have to acknowledge that it can be pretty messed-up a lot of the time. But so are a lot of things. And as long as you acknowledge that it can be problematic, I think it's still fine to enjoy it.

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

Yup, yaoi can be extremely creepy. Though there are stories that don't fall into the stereotype trap - or at least not completely. The last m/m anime I watched was No. 6, I think, and while one of the guys seems like the stereotypical "uke" at first glance, it turns out you really can't fit either of the two into such a restricting role at all. Also, they were adorable together and their relationship was actually a healthy one despite the screwed up circumstances - yay. And in some yaoi animes/mangas, there are unhealthy relationships that are in fact (mostly) treated as such. Yay for that, too.

I also agree that yaoi tends to be heteronormative, definitely because of the stereotypes, but also because the characters rarely even identify as gay or bi or pan. That's not always a problem in my eyes, but a "I'm a big strong seme and I like women but you are such a cute little damsel that I'll make an exception for you" vibe/line is just not awesome.

As for betraying one's morals by enoying problematic stuff... I don't feel that way, except if it's likely to affect someone else negatively. I probably wouldn't buy anything that contains a "no means yes" scenario, except maybe it was so over the top that I'd conclude that no one could ever internalize the stuff. I don't want to support that sort of culture. However, I've bought tons of non-yaoi fantasy books and computer games that I find deeply problematic, either by accident or because of the fact that if I only bought unproblematic things, I wouldn't get to buy much at all. At least with yaoi, I can ignore the underlying sexism, since there are usually so few women in it and it is actually aimed at me. It acknowledges women exist. It acknowledges we can like porn. That shouldn't be a big deal, but sadly, it is.

How "is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre", though? I don't think hentai or yuri (especially hentai) that is aimed at a male audience generally comes with more healthy relationships.

Thing is, it's always somehow of a surprise to me when I come across it - like, really? This is actually what you dream about as part of your ideal relationship? Because that's where the heteronormativity comes from - the women are meant to put themselves in place of the Uke, with the Seme being a stereotypical Twilight-style dream boy. Urgh.

What series was that? Sounds interesting. I generally prefer pairings that have more of a Seme/Seme dynamic, just because it's more believable and usually less creepy than the standard (I use FAKE as a good example of this). Hell, even yaoi stories that have Bara elements are more palatable for me, just because it's like they're both MEN, you know? Nothing wrong with feminine boys, of course, but not when they're just placeholders for the female audience.

I TOTALLY forgot about that usual "I'm not gay but you're just so cute" thing! Another thing - the whole "But we CAN'T, we're both guys!" excuse which is used for drama briefly before they fall into bed with each other. Like, the Uke (it's usually the uke, since the Seme is the one normally steam-rolling ahead with this) has been totally straight up to this point and is NOW attracted to this new guy...and despite how confusing and emotional it is, it either drags on FOREVER or is only an issue for five minutes before he gets swept away by the seme's advances.

The non-consent stuff is usually excused with either one of two reasons - the first being that they can't help it because they're that passionately in love with the Uke (which I would call bullshit on, because if you love someone even a LITTLE bit, you wouldn't be able to even THINK of doing that to them), and the second being that even if it's non-consensual, it's not rape because the Uke usually enjoys it anyway (again, bullshit - I've heard this used as a real-life excuse as to why a rape wasn't rape). Thing is, it's usually when these excuses are used that I get mad - I had to stop reading Gravitation when Shuichi was basically raped by Yuki and was effectively told "What are you complaining about? You still liked it." Although I see what you mean about how it's good that it's a medium targeted at us women - however, the treatment that I know yaoi fans get in geek fandom is pretty disdainful, because we're apparently only there for the yaoi and not the actual fandom itself - because when guys like lesbians it's normal, but you'd have to be pretty sick in teh head to be a woman who likes gay guys.

I think the "male equivalent" of this would be the Bara genre, which is written (usually) by gay/bisexual men FOR gay/bisexual men. Think big manly muscled men instead of pretty boys, and you've got the gist of it. I guess they're different in that yaoi is really similar to a lot of the bodice-ripper romances that have been made over the years, while bara is pretty close to your usual porn fare (except instead of a normal guy and girl, you have MANLY BEARS). I wonder, though, why there's such a big difference in what should be the same material (two gay guys having a romance) when it's presented to different genres.

[Nogitsune]

Thing is, it's always somehow of a surprise to me when I come across it - like, really? This is actually what you dream about as part of your ideal relationship? Because that's where the heteronormativity comes from - the women are meant to put themselves in place of the Uke, with the Seme being a stereotypical Twilight-style dream boy. Urgh.

Yeah, I often stare at it in disbelief, too. Though I don't think it's quite as simple as women wanting to be in the place of the Uke - I mean, some of the really creepy yaoi is extremely hardcore and I doubt most viewers would really want to be in that situation, but it still has a lot of fans because as just a fantasy, it's safe, and perhaps also because the Uke is not a girl. Unlike with Twilight, the same scenario portrayed as a man-woman relationship would probably be a huge turn-off for quite a few of the fans; possibly because it would feel too real. Not to say many of the fans don't have a really screwed up idea of how consent works.

What series was that? Sounds interesting. I generally prefer pairings that have more of a Seme/Seme dynamic, just because it's more believable and usually less creepy than the standard (I use FAKE as a good example of this). Hell, even yaoi stories that have Bara elements are more palatable for me, just because it's like they're both MEN, you know? Nothing wrong with feminine boys, of course, but not when they're just placeholders for the female audience.

I don't usually see the Uke as a "woman", because, eh, I don't know (m)any people in general who are that... stereotypically... uke, if you know what I mean. The Uke is a female fantasy to me, which can mean a placehoder, or something else entirely. I also enjoy the "Seme/Seme" dynamic more than the "Uke/Uke" one, though I prefer not being able to put characters into those roles at all. Some traditionally feminine qualities in a "Seme" character are a definite yay in my book.

Regarding that series, if you mean the one I mentioned at the beginning of the post, it's called simply "No. 6". It's about a pseudo-utopia where people with a high IQ (tested as children) enjoy great privileges and the best education, and one of the main characters (Sion) is a genius. The other (Nezumi) is on the run from the government and ends up in his house when they're both still kids, threatening him, only Sion does not feel very threatened and causes Nezumi to go "wtf" with his random niceness quite a few times. Basically, Sion is the kind and gentle type, while Nezumi is more aggressive, but Sion does have a badass side and Nezumi is the one who gets described as "pretty" all the time and who- oh, wait, that would be a spoiler. Anyway, Sion even says at one point that he wants to be Nezumi's equal and backs his words up with his behavior, and they go against the government together. I suck at giving these kinds of summaries, but I really enjoyed the show - I'd recommend watching the first episode, and if you like the plot and dynamic between the two as children, you'll probably like the rest of the show and them as adults, as well.

Although I see what you mean about how it's good that it's a medium targeted at us women - however, the treatment that I know yaoi fans get in geek fandom is pretty disdainful, because we're apparently only there for the yaoi and not the actual fandom itself - because when guys like lesbians it's normal, but you'd have to be pretty sick in the head to be a woman who likes gay guys.

Ugh, yeah. Recently, I even see a lot of people finding all kinds of random faults with animes that have a mostly female cast, while stereotypical stuff full of sexism gets praised by those same people as the most awesome thing since chocolate. I'm beginning to sense a theme here.

I think the "male equivalent" of this would be the Bara genre, which is written (usually) by gay/bisexual men FOR gay/bisexual men. Think big manly muscled men instead of pretty boys, and you've got the gist of it. I guess they're different in that yaoi is really similar to a lot of the bodice-ripper romances that have been made over the years, while bara is pretty close to your usual porn fare (except instead of a normal guy and girl, you have MANLY BEARS). I wonder, though, why there's such a big difference in what should be the same material (two gay guys having a romance) when it's presented to different genres.

Ah! I see what you mean. Maybe the huge difference has something to do with Japanese society specifically? In that case, I could probably guess forever and not hit the mark... I guess I'll try to read up on this some time. Though I know I personally would rather watch an anime with pretty guys than one with muscled bears. xD

[Menschenfeind]

the genre as a whole has a LOT of really messed-up and problematic tropes - the whole "rape is love" thing, and the strict seme/uke roles, anal sex being the only real form of love, misogyny, not "really" being gay, and a lot of other nasty stuff.

"I'm a big strong seme and I like women but you are such a cute little damsel that I'll make an exception for you" vibe/line is just not awesome.

The above is primarily the reasoning behind which I avoid yaoi, or hardcore yaoi for that matter, and instead read "shonen-ai" (which is a term that has been westernized to represent yaoi without sex, essentially, but is literally boy-love, or the love of a boy, which refers to pederastic relationships in Japan; so acceptable usage in western countries, not so much in Japan which instead uses the all-encompassing "Boy's Love" title). I believe the entire idea behind yaoi is to externalize the sexuality of the characters from the reader, which is usually female as that is the yaoi demographic, or something to that effect but can obviously be appealing for a number of reasons. The annoying misogynistic characters, rape, and forcefulness of the seme, that are pervasive elements of the yaoi genre caused me to specifically search for softer novels, that usually do not even depict sexual intercourse, but may over the course of the manga insinuate that such a thing has occurred. If you find those parts of the yaoi genre disturbing, or have found that those elements of themselves have no appeal, then I suggest searching specifically for boy's love mangas that lessen the sexual interactions between the main characters, given that a lot of the problems you describe are intrinsic to the sexuality delineated in the manga, as opposed to other facets of their relationships. Nevertheless, even with shonen-ai, there may be the same sort of character construction, where one must be dominant over the other, but it is more likely that you will find uke/uke pairings.

But still, with that said, there are a lot of really good bl works that transcend these - and there are also some that have these problems, but are still really good. For what it's worth, a lot of fiction has problematic content, but being problematic doesn't make it any less engaging or interesting or well written.

If the overall appeal to the manga is greater than the disdain derived in the blatant heteronormativism of these works, then I would think it is worthwhile to read them regardless. Sometimes the annoying, or rage invoking elements of a work can have a positive effect on the intrigue level of the read as a whole, irrespective of how infuriating certain segments of it are.

Yeah, I often stare at it in disbelief, too. Though I don't think it's quite as simple as women wanting to be in the place of the Uke - I mean, some of the really creepy yaoi is extremely hardcore and I doubt most viewers would really want to be in that situation

Being a male, I definitely would not fit into this category (female wanting to be the uke that is), and I suppose the most basic reasoning behind why I read BL is that I am drawn to males (and people in general) who do not fit into typical male gender norms and do not reflect general ideas of masculinity. That typically leads to me enjoying uke/uke pairings the most, because that is the opposite extreme of gender expectation; nonetheless, the idea is essentially that uke characters are "women with penises" which is a description I personally dislike; while the artists and writer's rendition of these characters might be based off of this "idea," I do not refer to the characters as being intrinsically female, and anatomically male. This is because my idea of "masculinity" and "femininity" is merely a reflection of the actions of males and females, a masculine quality is merely a characteristic expressed by a male; though, stereotypical masculinity is different altogether.

I DO like yaoi, but this is still enough to make me take a step back and think "what the hell am I reading?". But here's the thing, too - all yaoi stories are explicitly a fantasy only. They're not meant to reflect real life or real relationships, merely what the audience want and dream about. Does this, then, make the content within "okay"? Am I somehow betraying my own morals and views on heteronormativity (and how much I dislike it) by reading and liking these stories?

I would not presume so, no. As you, and many others, have stated, it is fantasy and not intended to be a reflection of reality, the fantastic elements in any given piece of work intended to play on the appeal to unrealistic aspects are usually not considered to reflect the actual characteristics of the readers. For instance, I play video games that involve the gratuitous slaughtering of innocent civilians, and other universally "uncivil or immoral" acts and derive some type of satisfaction from doing so. Given this type of entertainment, active as opposed to passive (where reading yaoi is passive), one might expect, given this concept of superseding or compromising views based off of derived satisfaction, that I would be compromising my moral standard by partaking in these acts in a video game. Though, quite to the contrary, I am not often considered to expunge my moral values because I am enjoying something "immoral" in a game, where I would not derive any satisfaction from it in real life. Much to the same, I do not believe it should be considered a compromise of moral code, or views to enjoy aspects of any given form of entertainment that might conflict with your perception of the real world. The parts of fantasy must not necessarily be applicable to that of real life (even though it often is and must in some way be a reflection of it).

And even if it is okay, why is it that this is the kind of thing that women are writing for other women?

This would be disturbing if the writers actually, advertently agreed with the type of heteronormativity depicted in their works; however, just because they use these character archetypes does not necessarily mean they would state that the relationships are correct, or all relationships must have that structure to be correct. Yaoi is a demographic that has the sort of misogynistic, strict seme-uke structure set as a precedence, that has thus far yielded the results intended by creating yaoi manga. There certainly are yaoi mangas that deviate from the normal structure; however, that is usually not the case, given that the commonality between most yaoi works have already proven successful. This monotony (the repeated character structures not only in yaoi, but all types of mangas and animes) is one of the reasons why I am less inclined to read manga or watch anime strictly for the plot, where most characters are cookie-cutter, and themes are constantly repeated over and over again, with little variation and merely introducing a change of scenery. Though my contention with monotonous structures extends beyond manga and anime, into literature and cinema as well.

Although I see what you mean about how it's good that it's a medium targeted at us women - however, the treatment that I know yaoi fans get in geek fandom is pretty disdainful, because we're apparently only there for the yaoi and not the actual fandom itself - because when guys like lesbians it's normal, but you'd have to be pretty sick in the head to be a woman who likes gay guys.

That is fairly idiotic in my opinion, first and foremost, there is a double standard which has already been addressed. Furthermore, even if yaoi fans are "only there for the yaoi and not the fandom itself," that is to say that being there for the "fandom itself" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean) is defined. The qualities in stories that attract viewers and create fans can be anything, so what if a specific relationship between characters is the main appeal? What makes that appeal any lesser than, say, the appeal of a dystopian society, or the appeal to other facets of the story. Who decides what attracting qualities are better in a story; there are no inherent, objective, means by which to assert that "coming just for the yaoi" is worse than being a fan for any other reason. What a completely unsound, bullshit assertion: "my appeal to the story is better than yours, because its mine."

I think the "male equivalent" of this would be the Bara genre, which is written (usually) by gay/bisexual men FOR gay/bisexual men. Think big manly muscled men instead of pretty boys, and you've got the gist of it.

I am not a fan of bara myself; but then again, I do not fit under some normal demographics by sex, and derive different types of satisfaction from reading boy's love manga and the like than perhaps was intended. I definitely like the "pretty boys" better, and find bara annoying because it is primarily hypersexual (as well as that I am not attracted to the general superficial qualities of bara characters), and focused on sexual aspects over other aspects, and therefore does not appeal to me, whereas, there are subsections of yaoi (like shonen-ai) that are less sexual and focus on elements I find more enjoyable or fantastic if you will. Bara is typically considered more realistic, and therefore, is considered a better reflection of real homosexual relationships. However, as has already been discussed, a lot of manga, literature, what have you, is not meant to reflect reality. The heternormativity itself is perhaps another major reason why homosexual men may not find any appeal to yaoi, it usually does not exactly depict homosexual relationships as healthy, stable, sustainable, or anything else expected of normal, functioning relationships.

How "is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre", though? I don't think hentai or yuri (especially hentai) that is aimed at a male audience generally comes with more healthy relationships.

I really do not think it is, especially given the type of structures prevalent in both. The startling similarities between the two gives rise to statements like "ukes are females with penises," and reveals the heteronormativity of both hentai and yaoi.

I don't usually see the Uke as a "woman", because, eh, I don't know (m)any people in general who are that... stereotypically... uke, if you know what I mean.

I definitely do not either, given my previously stated interpretation of masculinity and femininity. Though there is an obvious appeal to me in that the uke males are stereotypically feminine, that does not make me consider them to be females, so to speak, they are just males who have traits particularly common in females, and not necessarily restricted to females. To say that they are internally female and externally male is a bit odd to me, and further reinforces gender roles and expectations. (This is the same problem I have with people who state that they are a male trapped in a female's body or vice versa, in the literal context, to me that is like stating you have a metaphysical penis or vagina in your head, it is baffling that it cannot merely be accepted that males or females may don physical or mental characteristics typical of the opposite sex and still maintain the sexual identity based on their chromosomal traits. Perhaps I am being too cold, or rigid in my determination, and I certainly have no problem with people wanting to be the opposite sex, or wanting to associate with them, but to me this is just another reflection of normativism, and how, for some reason, sex extends beyond the physical characteristics and into the mental. Certainly the endocrine system yields some mental variation between the two but it does not assuredly suggest that there are inherent, non-physical differences as a result of sex. To call oneself a male (while being a female), only as a result of having stereotypically masculine qualities, seems absurd to me; perhaps only on the premise of desiring to be male in and of itself, to me, would that become logical. Though, I have embarked on a tangential rant perhaps unsuited to the topic at hand and excuse my insensitivity, if anyone would like to offer an alternative opinion on the subject please feel free to. It is merely my interpretation that a male who has strong associations with females need not then state that they are a female, mentally; they are just males with a strong association with females, I do not see why one must justify these associations by stating they are somehow transcendentally female. This just bolsters the idea that males and females must act and be a certain way, yet I see many people who oppose heterosexism, patriarchical structures, and what have you, stating that this is an acceptable means of interpretation, while they inadvertently oppose their own overarching principles.) Perhaps it is the intent of the writer to have them interpreted this way, however, it does not mean that we should then do so; males are capable of being incredibly, stereotypically, feminine in real life as much as they are in fantasy.

Regarding that series, if you mean the one I mentioned at the beginning of the post, it's called simply "No. 6".

I also read no.6 (manga not light novel) and watched the anime, and I basically liked the relationship between the two main characters. I definitely would not classify it as a yaoi however, given that the term insinuates sexual interaction which is not present in the manga, light novel, or anime versions. I would recommend it, and it does remotely challenge established norms in boy's love manga such as the uke-seme relationship. On a side note, I do not even know if I would consider it a "boy's love" manga, given that the romantic element of their relationship is not necessarily the focal of the story, and is merely subsidiary to other conditions.

On an extraneous note, being a male who enjoys light boy's love manga and consequently not finding the supposed appeal (sexual detachment but maintained relative standing to the reader) to the stories as is expected of female readers, I am but one example of why the idea of a certain thing does not limit its own functionality. Whatever the intent of a specific thing is does not necessarily restrict its usage, any admitted utilitarian can probably come to a consensus on this matter. Nevertheless, I am amused that, yet again, I am the only male partaking in a discussion regarding something like yaoi. I know very few males, besides myself, who openly express interest in boy's love manga, all of which are homosexual. So not only am I a minority among boy's love fans, but I am further a minority inside the male fandom, considering I am not a homosexual. That in mind, I hope my perspective, which perhaps comes from a different position on yaoi, given that I may derive some differing satisfaction from the works themselves, is helpful to the overall discussion.

Irrespective of the aforementioned, I still cannot help but feel rather estranged <_<.

[trewdys]

http://www.sexandgender.net/2009/12/10/who-wears-the-pants-the-significance-of-gender-roles-in-same-sex-relationships/

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also consider that this is Japan. Two implications:

1. They're still a relatively patriarchal society

2. Fujoshi pandering i.e. fanservice

First one is just the society's gender perceptions. Second one is market forces. I don't read manga at all and typically don't choose romance anime so I don't have much more to say.

EDIT: Also, the dominanant/submissive dynamic has likely been subliminally ingrained so deep in both writers' and readers' minds that it becomes the default for all relationships. Remember, Japan. Where girls are expected to wear makeup and put in some effort into dressing up. Where women are expected to be office ladies/secretaries and then housewives. More than Western societies, at any rate.

Baylife.

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

http://www.sexandgender.net/2009/12/10/who-wears-the-pants-the-significance-of-gender-roles-in-same-sex-relationships/

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also consider that this is Japan. Two implications:

1. They're still a relatively patriarchal society

2. Fujoshi pandering i.e. fanservice

First one is just the society's gender perceptions. Second one is market forces. I don't read manga at all and typically don't choose romance anime so I don't have much more to say.

EDIT: Also, the dominanant/submissive dynamic has likely been subliminally ingrained so deep in both writers' and readers' minds that it becomes the default for all relationships. Remember, Japan. Where girls are expected to wear makeup and put in some effort into dressing up. Where women are expected to be office ladies/secretaries and then housewives. More than Western societies, at any rate.

Baylife.

I actually remember hearing this theory that yaoi is so popular in Japan because, being members of the "inferior" gender, the women secretly wish that they were men - but as they're still women, they feel that even in a male role they'd be attracted to men. So they put themselves in the place of the Uke role. At least, that's the theory. There was, however, a survey done in Japan where they found that a lot of Japanese fujoshi identified as - or fantasised about being - gay men, so it seems that there's possibly some truth to that.

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

Thing is, it's always somehow of a surprise to me when I come across it - like, really? This is actually what you dream about as part of your ideal relationship? Because that's where the heteronormativity comes from - the women are meant to put themselves in place of the Uke, with the Seme being a stereotypical Twilight-style dream boy. Urgh.

Yeah, I often stare at it in disbelief, too. Though I don't think it's quite as simple as women wanting to be in the place of the Uke - I mean, some of the really creepy yaoi is extremely hardcore and I doubt most viewers would really want to be in that situation, but it still has a lot of fans because as just a fantasy, it's safe, and perhaps also because the Uke is not a girl. Unlike with Twilight, the same scenario portrayed as a man-woman relationship would probably be a huge turn-off for quite a few of the fans; possibly because it would feel too real. Not to say many of the fans don't have a really screwed up idea of how consent works.

What series was that? Sounds interesting. I generally prefer pairings that have more of a Seme/Seme dynamic, just because it's more believable and usually less creepy than the standard (I use FAKE as a good example of this). Hell, even yaoi stories that have Bara elements are more palatable for me, just because it's like they're both MEN, you know? Nothing wrong with feminine boys, of course, but not when they're just placeholders for the female audience.

I don't usually see the Uke as a "woman", because, eh, I don't know (m)any people in general who are that... stereotypically... uke, if you know what I mean. The Uke is a female fantasy to me, which can mean a placehoder, or something else entirely. I also enjoy the "Seme/Seme" dynamic more than the "Uke/Uke" one, though I prefer not being able to put characters into those roles at all. Some traditionally feminine qualities in a "Seme" character are a definite yay in my book.

Regarding that series, if you mean the one I mentioned at the beginning of the post, it's called simply "No. 6". It's about a pseudo-utopia where people with a high IQ (tested as children) enjoy great privileges and the best education, and one of the main characters (Sion) is a genius. The other (Nezumi) is on the run from the government and ends up in his house when they're both still kids, threatening him, only Sion does not feel very threatened and causes Nezumi to go "wtf" with his random niceness quite a few times. Basically, Sion is the kind and gentle type, while Nezumi is more aggressive, but Sion does have a badass side and Nezumi is the one who gets described as "pretty" all the time and who- oh, wait, that would be a spoiler. Anyway, Sion even says at one point that he wants to be Nezumi's equal and backs his words up with his behavior, and they go against the government together. I suck at giving these kinds of summaries, but I really enjoyed the show - I'd recommend watching the first episode, and if you like the plot and dynamic between the two as children, you'll probably like the rest of the show and them as adults, as well.

Although I see what you mean about how it's good that it's a medium targeted at us women - however, the treatment that I know yaoi fans get in geek fandom is pretty disdainful, because we're apparently only there for the yaoi and not the actual fandom itself - because when guys like lesbians it's normal, but you'd have to be pretty sick in the head to be a woman who likes gay guys.

Ugh, yeah. Recently, I even see a lot of people finding all kinds of random faults with animes that have a mostly female cast, while stereotypical stuff full of sexism gets praised by those same people as the most awesome thing since chocolate. I'm beginning to sense a theme here.

I think the "male equivalent" of this would be the Bara genre, which is written (usually) by gay/bisexual men FOR gay/bisexual men. Think big manly muscled men instead of pretty boys, and you've got the gist of it. I guess they're different in that yaoi is really similar to a lot of the bodice-ripper romances that have been made over the years, while bara is pretty close to your usual porn fare (except instead of a normal guy and girl, you have MANLY BEARS). I wonder, though, why there's such a big difference in what should be the same material (two gay guys having a romance) when it's presented to different genres.

Ah! I see what you mean. Maybe the huge difference has something to do with Japanese society specifically? In that case, I could probably guess forever and not hit the mark... I guess I'll try to read up on this some time. Though I know I personally would rather watch an anime with pretty guys than one with muscled bears. xD

I suppose this is part of the reason why I'm so WTF? about the fact that I like reading it - they can somehow get away with stuff that I would never see as acceptable if it were a straight pair, and while it still makes me a bit uncomfortable, I can still tolerate it much more than I would be able to if it weren't yaoi. And I really, REALLY don't like that. Obviously, I prefer it that those themes aren't present - MUCH prefer it - but the fact that I can even tolerate some of these themes makes me feel uncomfortable. Although, now that I think about it, a lot of the old "bodice-ripper" style romance stories that have been written over the years still keep these creepy themes. You know the ones - where some noble lady is accosted by some dashing rogue, and they fall in forbidden love, and the lady is often ravished by him several times. I actually have the misfortune of owning a book that goes like this, and yet the woman didn't mind because they were "soulmates." Blargh.

I often think that about camp gay men - when people say they "act like women", I just think "women DO NOT act like this." Seriously, who does? But in terms of relationship dynamics, the Uke is often in the role of a woman, so it's easy to relate to it. And I'd prefer there to be no set dynamics, either - but I guess it happens whether we want it to or not.

Sounds interesting. :D I still think FAKE is a great example of a good yaoi series, though.

Yeah. If you happen to like any series, and you then mention that you like yaoi, you're immediately going to be labelled by the fans as "some crazy rabid yaoi fangirl". And to a lot of people, liking yaoi must entail shipping every guy with every other guy in the series, being rabidly protective of your yaoi ships, only being interested in the series for its yaoi potential, and being a complete pervert. It's annoying as hell. And yet no male shippers (because of course they exist as well) ever get this kind of reputation, nor are they ever called out for liking series where the women are all sex objects with giant boobs.

I think Bara is renown for having lots of sex (manly gay bear sex, at that) and not much plot, so yeah. I do like that, while it's mostly written for men by men, it's still got plenty of women writers and readers. I think it's just a male/female societal thing rather than a cultural thing - because Bara does remind me a lot of lesbian porn that's written by men for men.

[bookcase]

I suppose this is part of the reason why I'm so WTF? about the fact that I like reading it - they can somehow get away with stuff that I would never see as acceptable if it were a straight pair, and while it still makes me a bit uncomfortable, I can still tolerate it much more than I would be able to if it weren't yaoi. And I really, REALLY don't like that.

I know nothing about yaoi (well, apart from what I've read in this thread :P ), but I suppose what you're describing comes down to the "reading contract" you enter into as a reader of a yaoi story. In other words, you know the genre, you know its norms (incl. the seme/uke dynamics), you know what to expect, and this is what you get. (The bulk of commercial fiction functions like this - it fulfils the expectations created by genre (in this case yaoi) rather than frustrate them. In other words, more of the same. For some reason, we tend to like more of the same. It brings comforting certainty. You know just what you're getting.) Back to the reading contract, I suppose that reading fiction is rather like a game, and while the game can only be played properly (and be fun) if you "take it seriously" on some level, on another level you recognise that it is "just" a game. And so, you can treat the uke/seme relationship as just an annoying aspect of an otherwise enjoyable game.

Then again, this kind of genre scenarios are not unrelated to social perceptions, in this case social perceptions of gender and sexuality, which they can potentially feed and reinforce. Stories (and I don't just mean literary ones) ARE powerful stuff, something that is fundamental to how we perceive and relate to the world around us. (I like the notion of humans as storytelling apes. ;)) So critical reflection about the stories we tell and consume is always a good thing. :)

[Preskom]

You know, I've been reading yaoi for MINIMUM 7hours a day everyday from 1999 to 2007.

I think I kinna stopped because I couldn't read at work after that, and I began to download anime, buy videogames, roleplay with friends and bought actual books and manga to read.

I'm trying to get back to yaoi since December...lemme tell you, it changed, a lot.

First, the "shipping" terms... It came up in maybe 2005 but almost nobody used that...now it's everywhere, most of the way to describe the fic changed too.

Then, the quality of the stories...

I liked only 3 on maybe 100, and even then they where not good enough to go on my "fav" list, but then maybe I was the problem...so I looked up and re-read some of the stuff I had from before...no, really, huge difference. Do I blame schools? new generation? lack of beta readers? fans who actually encourage people who clearly cannot write? all the above and more...

Oh, that, and also at lot more plagiarism... (copy-pasted an entire story, some chapters or paragraphs and edit them for their storyline or just an entire sex scene...) before if someone tried they would receive a full box of nasty comments about it, but now they can copy from 12 years ago and I seem to be the only one to remember...

The seme-uke relations changed a lot too, they seem to be way more stereotypical, way less switch moments, and finding stories where the "cute" one is actually "seme" is way harder (before it was almost 40% of stories, now it's 10% at most...) and way less "rival" or "equal" or non seme-uke dynamics, even for chars that are equally cute and/or powerful.

gah, feels great to rant.

As for the issues brought up in this topic and my own rant, sorry, I could care less, those are free stories, and I have this value that states that free stuff just can't be criticized seriously, that would be just mean, cmon, a bad gift is still a gift XD

[Capslock Cadet]

I DO like yaoi, but this is still enough to make me take a step back and think "what the hell am I reading?". But here's the thing, too - all yaoi stories are explicitly a fantasy only. They're not meant to reflect real life or real relationships, merely what the audience want and dream about. Does this, then, make the content within "okay"? Am I somehow betraying my own morals and views on heteronormativity (and how much I dislike it) by reading and liking these stories? And even if it is okay, why is it that this is the kind of thing that women are writing for other women? Why is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre? And does anyone else read and like yaoi, despite the above points?

I read it sometimes. I have several friends that are really into yaoi, and sometimes they'll have me read their favorites. I've found this one mangaka that I really liked though, so I read all her stuff (Miyamoto Kano).

The only yaoi I've read that has a relationship that didn't feel all heteronormative was Hydra (and some of Miyamoto Kano's other stories). If someone had told me it was based on a true story I would've believed it. The characters seemed so much more realistic than most other characters I've seen in yaoi.

So, yeah, this is usually the yaoi I'll read. When I know it'll be good characters, etc. I don't read yaoi for the sake of reading yaoi.

I don't think you're betraying your morals and views by reading it. You don't have to believe in something just because you enjoy reading or watching it. For example, I adored the movie "Hamlet: The Vampire Slayer", but at the same time I think it's absolutely horrible in the way it treated the source-material.

[{deleted}]

Yes, I read yaoi. It's kinda trashy sometimes (being fair, most romance novel-style material written for women by women is), but other times it can be cute, sweet, sexy and overall real fun to read. However, I've noticed something quite...creepy about it. Mainly, that despite the stories being about the (often forbidden/melodramatic) love between two guys, the stories, relationship dynamics and even the LOOK of the whole thing is staggeringly heteronormative. And quite disturbing, too.

Firstly, there's how the characters look and act. Way more often than not, the Uke (bottom) is going to look or act like a woman or a young girl. He'll have large, cute eyes, a slim and delicate body and a more passive, shy or "cute" personality. Literally, they're usually so pretty that even IN STORY he's mistaken for a cute girl. This contrasts with the Seme (top), who'll often look like your average (albeit quite handsome) guy. Maybe a little more serious than most guys, but still recognisable as a guy. This is creepy, since it shows that even in gay male relationships, there MUST be a man and a woman. Unfortunately, this trait does cross over into shipping, with some people feminising whoever they think the Uke would be.

One other thing that's heteronormative - the fact that there are specific roles that aren't deviated from. The feminine one is always passive during sex, while the masculine one is always aggressive. The fact that these roles have specific terms with their specific meanings (Seme and Uke) shows how deeply ingrained this is into the genre. You never get switches, or couples who like to switch roles every now and again - once you're deemed to be the passive one, you're expected to be passive in all areas of the relationship, whether you like it or not. This isn't just heteronormative (with the idea that the "woman" is always sexually passive), but it actually reduces sex into something that's DONE to someone by someone else - it's not something that two people do together.

Speaking of "whether you like it or not"...I picked up a yaoi book recently, with four short stories and one side story involving the pair from an earlier story. Each story had a brief sex scene. Of these scenes, only ONE scene in the entire book DID NOT include the word "No" in the dialogue. You think real hard about that for a second. Out of five sex scenes, only ONE appeared to be completely, 100% consensual. All the others had either requests to stop (which were ignored) general indecision and/or nerves, or full-on non-consent. And let me tell you that that's NOT a trait exclusive to teh crappy book that I just bought - it's something that comes up A LOT in this genre. That's actually VERY disturbing, and what makes it even moreso is the fact that this relationship dynamic is inherent in the terms that are used - Seme means "attack" while uke means "defend". This is not only really creepy and wtf-inducing, but it demeans what rape actually IS. I know that marital rape didn't become a crime in Japan until fairly recently, but it's still a crime and it's not something that you do in any healthy relationship.

I DO like yaoi, but this is still enough to make me take a step back and think "what the hell am I reading?". But here's the thing, too - all yaoi stories are explicitly a fantasy only. They're not meant to reflect real life or real relationships, merely what the audience want and dream about. Does this, then, make the content within "okay"? Am I somehow betraying my own morals and views on heteronormativity (and how much I dislike it) by reading and liking these stories? And even if it is okay, why is it that this is the kind of thing that women are writing for other women? Why is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre? And does anyone else read and like yaoi, despite the above points?

Fanfiction is a guilty pleasure for me, I admit, and slash is pretty big in most fandoms. I mainly judge a story on how good it is, so that aspect doesn't bother me overly much.

How the characters look and act... I think one character looks and acts female because the fans/writers are female, and they want a stand in. I think if you ignore the characters genitals, they essentially are girls, so the character is sort of the female's avatar. And even if the reader/writer doesn't want a stand in for themselves, I doubt they've ever experienced a relationship other than a hetronormative one. I think they're just don't know of other relationship dynamics, and are falling back on what they know and have been taught is acceptable in the majority of relationships (i.e. hetrosexual relationships.)

As for the sexual dynamics, the issues of consent and partnership... Yeah that's pretty fucked up. I'll hedge a few bets though. I think a reason why yaoi is written like that is because people think that it's acceptable and that they could get away with it. ... Okay, I'll try and rephrase that (I feel like sort of an arsehole for saying it like that). Rape is a serious thing. Lots of people are very angry about when girls are raped, and there's a great deal of awareness and debate about men raping women. It's good that society is concerned about that, and that it's considered socially unacceptable to rape a women. But what about raping a man? Hm. I sense a disparity here.

There's not a whole lot of awareness about men raping men (or women raping men, or women raping women). So I think the people who write those scenes with two men involved write it knowing that it's okay to write it as sexy, because less people see it as unacceptable. Think about it. In Twilight, we have a very controlling man with a rather flimsy woman. Lots of people think it's romantic, but there are just as many, if not more, people who think that the Bella-Edward thing is majorly messed up, unhealthy and not really acceptable in this day and age. But what if we replace Bella with a delicate Bella type man? I think it'd be a diferent story. Not the actual story sorry, but that reactions to it would be significantly different. I think there would be criticisms, but I reckon they wouldn't be aimed at the relationship dynamics (probably more about 'Bella' being a pansy.)

So that's one possible reason for why yaoi is depicted like that, though I think there are others. I think it could be a misunderstanding (I hope) of the male psyche, thinking that men are really into dominance or something, that that's their ideal, or that men don't personally find having same sex relationships to be acceptable and are ashamed of it, and need to salvage or validate their egos by throwing consent out of the window. The dominance and submission aspect could also be an exageration of heteronormitivity- that the writer is exaggerating 'traditional male and female roles' to emphasise that the relationship is still conforming to the readers preferred type of relationship, and that other than both of the participants being male, it's actually 'normal' or whatever. I can't seem to phrase it well without it sounding very contradictory (possibly because it is, but it still sort of makes sense to me).

As for whether or not you should step away from yaoi because it goes against what you believe to be acceptable in reality... That's really your choice Thief. I personally don't like yaoi in and of itself though, and I struggle to see how it can stand alone as a genre. I don't see how romance between two people of the same gender is different than romance between people of opposite genders. It still counts as romance to me, and I can't see how one is preferably/more enticing than the other. It doesn't affect the likelihood of my reading a story. What matters to me is the story content- whether or not it's a good story, whether or not I consider the relationship to be 'realistic' (which usually means in character), that sort of thing.

[Safaia]

I'm against porn and related things completely, but I exceptionally hate yaoi. For one thing, it is rather stereotypical and repetitive. Secondly, it's uncreative, but that goes for all porn / sex stories. Throw in the shittiest plot if you like, no one cares about that anyway they just want to see the fucking.

Thirdly, and the most distressing of them all, is the fanbase. I don't think teenage girls obsessing over some sparkly big eyed buttfucking is normal. How many twelve year olds have you seen (especially on deviantART) who plaster "I LUV YAOI <3 !!!" everywhere you go? You'll run into a lot if you're a frequent internet user.

I really don't get it. It's not cute.

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

I'm against porn and related things completely, but I exceptionally hate yaoi. For one thing, it is rather stereotypical and repetitive. Secondly, it's uncreative, but that goes for all porn / sex stories. Throw in the shittiest plot if you like, no one cares about that anyway they just want to see the fucking.

Thirdly, and the most distressing of them all, is the fanbase. I don't think teenage girls obsessing over some sparkly big eyed buttfucking is normal. How many twelve year olds have you seen (especially on deviantART) who plaster "I LUV YAOI <3 !!!" everywhere you go? You'll run into a lot if you're a frequent internet user.

I really don't get it. It's not cute.

Well, I suppose with yaoi manga and slash fiction, no real people are being exploited - so no harm done? Secondly, you CAN get good yaoi stories - I'd like to think that some of my own slash stories are kind of original, and I try my absolute best to avoid all the stereotypes that go with it. You get a crap-load of bad writers, yes - but you can find diamonds in the rough, I think. I've found slash fiction that actually has fantastic storylines with great character development and everything - you just have to shift through the crap to find it.

And you know what? If it were boys obsessing over Yuri, would anyone care, or think it's abnormal? At all? Nope, because apparently guys can obsess over lesbians and that's perfectly normal, but if you're a girl and you like gay boys, you'd HAVE to be fucked up in the head. Because we all know girls can't have sexualities of their own, and even if they did, they'd have to be MESSED UP to actually try and find a safe way to explore it and find stuff that they like. Nice double-standard there.

[Safaia]

Um, actually, I hate men obsessing over Yuri too, if not more.

I just said that the majority of yaoi fans are way too young to be interested in those things.

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

Um, actually, I hate men obsessing over Yuri too, if not more.

I just said that the majority of yaoi fans are way too young to be interested in those things.

Being honest, I don't think there's mush wrong with either. No live, physical people are being exploited or objectified, and while I have problems with both genres, as previously mentioned, it's a fantasy. That's it.

Not really - if I'm being honest, that's the kind of age that a lot of preteens start to become aware and interested in the concept of sex. I found out about yaoi through my older sister when I was about 11 (and by that point, a lot of my male friends had started giggling over the adverts at the back of magazines that advertised porn), and I started reading the less-sexual equivalent (shonen-ai) when I was 12. A lot of young girls might not have the maturity to express their interests in a way which ISN'T incredibly grating and doesn't result in awful fanfiction, those girls do mature, just like I did. It's still an exploration of adult concepts in a relatively safe way - hell, for the girls who get inspired to write fanfics because of it, I encourage them to continue and get better (I've actually pulled aside the writers of some truly AWFUL fics and politely told them how to improve - if done nicely, it really helps them) - it's a good writing exercise.

[Christine L.S]

I'm strange...I have no problems with reading slash stories on fanfiction, but yaoi manga isn't my thing (I think it is the images that turn me off). Still, same dynamics...I hate when the uke is totally submissive...no character development whatsoever. It makes it look like you don't try to create interesting characters. Two guys actually fighting to top is an interesting read, a guy just sitting there..yeah no.

I am also a yuri fan (same standards that apply to yaoi also apply to my yuri) plus a straight romance type of fan. My main thing is character development. If you use the same old character stereotypes, I have better things to do. Yuri does seem to be a bit better, though it also has its issues like yaoi.

[sonofzeal]

I think the sociodynamics of yaoi and yuri are interesting. It's been my (highly limited) experience that yuri is much less "heteronormative", but I've yet to see any analysis on the topic. The ones I've seen ("Maria-sama ga Miteru", and arguably "Re: Cutie Honey") tend to have more complex interplays.

Maria-sama ga Miteru has a "uke" and a "seme" (the latter is taller, older, more elegant, more skilled in almost every area, obvious breadwinner potential), but the dynamic seems a little more complex since the "seme" is fragile under the facade and, emotionally speaking, the "uke" is the more dominant one. That seems a little out of character with what I've been told of the seme/uke dynamic from yaoi.

In Re: Cutie Honey, there's an obvious implied paring between Honey and Nat-chan, as did the original and the live action movie, but it's perhaps most obvious in Re: Cutie Honey. Both Honey and Nat-chan are highly capable in their own ways, even if Honey is the only one with superpowers. They're roughly the same height, similar levels of badassery, etc. I suppose Nat-chan behaves more like a seme and Honey more like a uke, but it gets a bit complicated when you're talking about an action hero supercop, and a nanite-powered WMD.

If anyone has a better understanding of yuri / shojo-ai, I'd love to hear more...

[The Honey Bear]

I generally prefer yuri to yaoi, mostly because although there are some fixed precepts, and ideas that get repeated (how many yuri series are set at girls catholic schools?) it seems a lot less rigid in other ways. You do get the male/female thing echoed in some of the pairings, but there's a lot more variety. The whole younger cute girl/elegant older girl idea seems popular (like in the Maria-Sama example sonofzeal gave) but I've also seen two girly girls, the more feminine girl and the tomboy, and all sorts, and I feel like it reflects real lesbian relationships better. There's a lot less of this creepy 'rape is love' trope that seriously puts me off some yaoi.

[Missandei]

Oh, yes, yaoi.

I adore yaoi, but I read fanfiction based on it after I watch it and I prefer reading fanfiction on a particular yaoi manga/anime than watching said things. And when I do read, I usually like non-canon couples or when the two semes of an anime are in a fanfic together because that way, neither are feminine and ukeish or whatnot. Anyway, I really like yaoi, but sometimes I cannot continue watching it because I hate that heteronormativity so much that it puts me off of it.

[sonofzeal]

I generally prefer yuri to yaoi, mostly because although there are some fixed precepts, and ideas that get repeated (how many yuri series are set at girls catholic schools?) it seems a lot less rigid in other ways. You do get the male/female thing echoed in some of the pairings, but there's a lot more variety. The whole younger cute girl/elegant older girl idea seems popular (like in the Maria-Sama example sonofzeal gave) but I've also seen two girly girls, the more feminine girl and the tomboy, and all sorts, and I feel like it reflects real lesbian relationships better. There's a lot less of this creepy 'rape is love' trope that seriously puts me off some yaoi.

Side question - have you ever seen "Simoun", and if so what did you think of it?

I probably should have listed that under yuri/shojo-ai shows I've watched.......

[The Honey Bear]

Haha! It's one of my favourite shows. :lol:

The fanservice in the first few episodes didn't do the show justice, but it ended up being really interesting and raising a lot of ideas about gender and sexuality. I also enjoyed it because it was a yuri show not set at an all girl's high school!

(For anyone not familiar with it, Simoun is a sci-fi/fantasy set in a world where everyone is born female and chooses their gender at age... 17, I think.)

I was thinking about Aaeru and Neviril as an example in my previous post, becuase such they're such an atypical couple, as well. Neviril is set up in the role as the strong leader, loses that after one episode and becomes very vulnerable for a lot of the series. But through Aaeru's strength and determination, she regains her own. They're awesome.

[Christine L.S]

There are several standard models couples in Yuri follow (with one example for illustration purposes):

There is the obvious girl that really looks like a guy paired up with a girly girl. The more tomboyish girl usually has stereotypical male interests. In a lesser version of this pairing, both girls look like girls, but it is a tomboy and girly girl pairing.

Example: Hikari (girly girl) and Amane (tomboy-looks like a guy) from Strawberry Panic

Example of lesser version: Eclair and Lumiere from Kiddy Grade

In an interesting subversion of this couple, Maria Sama Ga Miteru has Yoshiro and Rei. Rei looks like a guy, but has very girly interests. Yoshiro looks like a fragile flower, and even had a heart condition earlier in the series, but has very tomboyish interests.

The aggressive one that comes on to the naive school girl. It is sorta like Yaoi in a way. The aggressive one will not take no for an answer. Sometimes this crosses over to rape or nearly rape territory.

Example: Shizuma (aggressive one) and Nagisa (naive one) from Strawberry Panic, Chikane (aggressive one) and Himeko(naive one) from Kannazuki No Miko

The most mainstream couple is the romantic friendship. It usually straddles the line between romance and friendship, and what is acceptable in mainstream Japanese culture and what is not. In this sub type, the two girls in question only kiss (not french kiss...just kiss) and that is only rarely (if at all-usually not). No where is actual sex mentioned between two girls. Mentorship between an upperclassman and a underclassman is common. Usually, the Japanese culture sees this as a stage, with the bonus that the girls have no risk of losing their virginity. After a certain point out of school, these types of relationships are not considered socially acceptable. Its comparable to college lesbians stereotype in Western culture.

Example: All relationships in Maria Sama Ga Miteru with the exception of Sei's and Shiori's, Mugi and Nono from Hitohira

A lot of the types of relationships also follow patterns set by Japanese culture. However, unlike yaoi, there are more exceptions to these patterns. Take for example the Manga Girl Friends. Both girls are equally as girly, love makeup, and even mention the romantic friendship and dismiss it in regards to their feelings.

Simoun has the main girls, Aaeru and Neviril switch the aggressive positions depending on the point in the plot. At the beginning, Aaeru, the naive one, was more aggresive to Neviril, the experienced pilot.

[naomilawlietjr]

Yes, I read yaoi. It's kinda trashy sometimes (being fair, most romance novel-style material written for women by women is), but other times it can be cute, sweet, sexy and overall real fun to read. However, I've noticed something quite...creepy about it. Mainly, that despite the stories being about the (often forbidden/melodramatic) love between two guys, the stories, relationship dynamics and even the LOOK of the whole thing is staggeringly heteronormative. And quite disturbing, too.

Firstly, there's how the characters look and act. Way more often than not, the Uke (bottom) is going to look or act like a woman or a young girl. He'll have large, cute eyes, a slim and delicate body and a more passive, shy or "cute" personality. Literally, they're usually so pretty that even IN STORY he's mistaken for a cute girl. This contrasts with the Seme (top), who'll often look like your average (albeit quite handsome) guy. Maybe a little more serious than most guys, but still recognisable as a guy. This is creepy, since it shows that even in gay male relationships, there MUST be a man and a woman. Unfortunately, this trait does cross over into shipping, with some people feminising whoever they think the Uke would be.

One other thing that's heteronormative - the fact that there are specific roles that aren't deviated from. The feminine one is always passive during sex, while the masculine one is always aggressive. The fact that these roles have specific terms with their specific meanings (Seme and Uke) shows how deeply ingrained this is into the genre. You never get switches, or couples who like to switch roles every now and again - once you're deemed to be the passive one, you're expected to be passive in all areas of the relationship, whether you like it or not. This isn't just heteronormative (with the idea that the "woman" is always sexually passive), but it actually reduces sex into something that's DONE to someone by someone else - it's not something that two people do together.

Speaking of "whether you like it or not"...I picked up a yaoi book recently, with four short stories and one side story involving the pair from an earlier story. Each story had a brief sex scene. Of these scenes, only ONE scene in the entire book DID NOT include the word "No" in the dialogue. You think real hard about that for a second. Out of five sex scenes, only ONE appeared to be completely, 100% consensual. All the others had either requests to stop (which were ignored) general indecision and/or nerves, or full-on non-consent. And let me tell you that that's NOT a trait exclusive to teh crappy book that I just bought - it's something that comes up A LOT in this genre. That's actually VERY disturbing, and what makes it even moreso is the fact that this relationship dynamic is inherent in the terms that are used - Seme means "attack" while uke means "defend". This is not only really creepy and wtf-inducing, but it demeans what rape actually IS. I know that marital rape didn't become a crime in Japan until fairly recently, but it's still a crime and it's not something that you do in any healthy relationship.

I DO like yaoi, but this is still enough to make me take a step back and think "what the hell am I reading?". But here's the thing, too - all yaoi stories are explicitly a fantasy only. They're not meant to reflect real life or real relationships, merely what the audience want and dream about. Does this, then, make the content within "okay"? Am I somehow betraying my own morals and views on heteronormativity (and how much I dislike it) by reading and liking these stories? And even if it is okay, why is it that this is the kind of thing that women are writing for other women? Why is it so different to the men's equivalent of this genre? And does anyone else read and like yaoi, despite the above points?

M'yep. This is why I don't watch yaoi anymore. I only read yaoi fanfiction on archiveofourown or livejournal. They are the only places with well-written, completely consensual yaoi fanfics.

[harris-hijiri]

Great Thief Yatagarasu wrote:

I know that marital rape didn't become a crime in Japan until fairly recently,

' fairly recently '?

配偶者からの暴力の防止及び被害者の保護に関する法律(Act on the Prevention of Spousal Violence and the Protection of Victims) was established in 2001.

http://www.gender.go.jp/dv/dvhou.html

[Great Thief Yatagarasu]

Great Thief Yatagarasu wrote:

I know that marital rape didn't become a crime in Japan until fairly recently,

' fairly recently '?

配偶者からの暴力の防止及び被害者の保護に関する法律(Act on the Prevention of Spousal Violence and the Protection of Victims) was established in 2001.

http://www.gender.go.jp/dv/dvhou.html

That's still just over ten years ago - on a social level, it's still not that long ago.

[contradictionary]

I've read a bit of Yaoi. It's a bit rapey for my taste and the big-eyed child-like faces put me off. I get squishes on feminine men (not just 'metrosexuals', I mean feminine in every way EXCEPT dress-sense actually) more often than typical men but all the same, the physical appearance doesn't do anything for me.

I often think that about camp gay men - when people say they "act like women", I just think "women DO NOT act like this." Seriously, who does?

Many women do, they're just not perceived the same way for it. Take any confident, dramatic/sassy woman, and imagine her with exactly the same speech patterns and body language but with a male body and vocal quality, and suddenly she becomes 'camp'. With a female body, people who act like that aren't noticed half as much. Probably for the same reasons, the femininity of men who are feminine in speech and movement but NOT camp is often perceived as more extreme than it is. Their feminine tendencies jump out at people because they're uncommon in people of the male sex, while the same feminine traits in women go unnoticed because the brain expects them to be there anyway.

Sass and theatricality is OK, in men and women, but I like the sweet, gentle kind of feminine men myself, for squishing purposes. Just not total wet blankets like ukes.

[anticlockwise]

I think that a possible reason for the horrible amount of rape-glorification in yaoi is something to do with that, in a heteronormative context, if the uke is supposed to be the self-insert for teenage girls then you get a kind of twisted female-purity thing coming into play.

Rather than portraying the uke as a guy who just happens to want to get into this other guy's pants, he's presented as 'pure' instead by being raped-- i.e., he didn't want it/pretended not to want it, because hah, that would just be slutty, right? It's kind of fucked up. But everyone who's seen yaoi knows that in Yaoi La-La Land, consensual, reciprocal sex is for True Love Only. Even if you still have to add a few cursory 'no!'s beforehand just to make sure that everyone knows what a pure unicorn spirit the uke is. Because obviously willing consent is out of the question for a sympathetic character? IDK.

I think the only yaoi manga I actually kind of like is Junjou Karen, where a) the seme/uke dynamics are kind of subverted, and b) abusive behaviour is actually portrayed and criticised as abusive behaviour. And there is verbal consent. It still has its problems (lots of them), but I guess I have a soft spot for it and the artwork in it, despite really disliking yaoi as a whole.