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Prismatangle

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I've actually thought a lot about who had it harder and truth be told...for us, it's pretty equal. I have a really difficult time articulating my feelings sometimes. But I will say this, you sound really angry henryd, and saying that what I have can't possibly be satisfying is kind of weird. It almost sounds crazier than you try to make me seem. I told you in my story all the anger I felt in the past, I just don't feel it anymore. We fit together really well, we really do.

You need to stop asking people to convince you of anything. Everyone gets to decide for themselves what frequency is comfortable. That's all you need to know...decide for yourself dude.

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Prismatangle

All asexuals could be conditioned to have sexual relationships, but I don't see why they should all have to either.

No, I don't think all asexuals can be "conditioned to have sexual relationships," and the idea of doing such a thing is incredibly creepy. Nobody should ever have to be "conditioned to" have sexual relationships.

Of course they can. Anyone can be conditioned to do anything. How is it creepy? Here, let's play the game with me. I could be conditioned to eat nothing but dirt, I could be conditioned to stick carrots up my butt every day, I could be conditioned to sleep all day and wake all night... that's not creepy. That's just life.

And the idea that an asexual person "just" has to do something they don't want to be doing? As someone who is deeply familiar with sexual assault, oh my god, dude. That is such a ludicrously privileged, not-getting-it opinion that it makes me want to cry while laughing bitterly. It's not a matter of "just doing something you don't want to do." It's not like eating a food you don't like, or doing a chore. It's POTENTIALLY TRAUMATIZING.

But it's not tramatizing for everyone! Jesus! Would everyone stop assuming that their feelings are exactly the same as everyone else's??? If I KNOW my partner isn't traumatized by sex, then how exactly does it differ from doing something like eating food she doesn't want to eat? What if that's exactly how she describes it?

I'd like to see you provide scientific evidence that anyone can be conditioned to do anything, because I don't believe that is true without it. Link me some case studies, because otherwise you're just making an assertion without any particular reason to believe it is true. (Except, of course, you know, it would be incredibly unethical to perform experiments like that, wouldn't it? It doesn't necessarily mean it has never happened, though.)

I'm not assuming that everyone has the same feelings about sex. I'm also not assuming that any specific person has the same feelings about ALL sex ALL THE TIME. In my experience feelings about unwanted sex are highly variable, from "ugh I'd rather do something else" to... well. I'm not going there. But pressuring someone to have sex they don't want, even if it's not likely to be traumatizing, is very risky. Just the potential that you could give someone that kind of suffering makes it really, really not worth the risk. You just don't know if it's going to be that bad or not, so it's better not to risk it.

By the way, I'm NOT saying that YOU have been doing any such thing! There are ways to negotiate sex with an asexual person without pressuring them. I don't have any idea how you personally have conducted your own negotiations with your asexual partner. You seem to think I am personally attacking you, and I'm not.

The other guy, though? That guy I'm not so sure about, given the things he's said.

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I'm not going to dig up evidence that we can be conditioned to do anything. It's pretty well established already. Whether or not you think it's true... well I don't really care, as it's neither here nor there. I will say this... if conditioning didn't work, there would be no military, there would be no gender roles, there would be no a lot of things that we currently have.

I apologize for being defensive.

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Prismatangle

I'm not going to dig up evidence that we can be conditioned to do anything. It's pretty well established already. Whether or not you think it's true... well I don't really care, as it's neither here nor there. I will say this... if conditioning didn't work, there would be no military, there would be no gender roles, there would be no a lot of things that we currently have.

I don't dispute the concept of social conditioning. That definitely exists. However, that ANYONE can be conditioned to do ANYTHING? That's taking it quite a bit too far. Even the example you provided of conditioning someone to eat nothing but dirt? I don't think humans can physically survive eating nothing but dirt--at least not for very long! (If they can, feel free to provide evidence.)

But moreover, even if you could condition anyone to do anything? The idea of actually doing that is deeply disturbing. The level of coercion it would take to make a person (a normal person, without a condition like Pica) eat nothing but dirt? That is seriously creepy. The same goes for the idea of conditioning any asexual person, regardless of their feelings on the matter, to have sex. That is why I said your comment was creepy.

I hope that explains it a little better.

Edit: Here is a quick reason why I don't believe that anyone can be conditioned to do anything, btw.

This is getting off-topic, and I don't want to derail any further. Like I said before, I understand the point of your original post, including that you DON'T advocate conditioning any asexual to have sex. I understand what you meant, but I think what you said was a little off from that, and it bothered me enough that I wanted to point it out. Good intentions are great, but they don't always negate the harmful implications of things that a person might say. That's the only reason why I brought it up. I hope you understand!

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And the idea that an asexual person "just" has to do something they don't want to be doing? As someone who is deeply familiar with sexual assault, oh my god, dude. That is such a ludicrously privileged, not-getting-it opinion that it makes me want to cry while laughing bitterly. It's not a matter of "just doing something you don't want to do." It's not like eating a food you don't like, or doing a chore. It's POTENTIALLY TRAUMATIZING. There is a very, VERY good reason why you do not EVER pressure someone into having sex when they don't want to.

Having sex you don't want to have is NOT AT ALL COMPARABLE TO GIVING A MASSAGE. Sex you don't want and didn't consent to is deeply invasive--it is in fact a form of psychological torture. And PTSD can fuck you up for years. Seriously. It is NOT an issue to take lightly.

You are taking this completely out of context. We are not talking about sexual assault, or forcing anyone to do anything, we are talking about a loving relationship between two people, where the person who has no sex drive or desire is willing to give sexual pleasure to the person who does because he/she loves them.

It sounds like you are assuming all asexuals are repulsed by sex and equate it with torture. Obviously if your partner is repulsed by sex then everything I'm saying goes out the window.

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Henryd...I would appreciate it if you would directly respond to some of the things I posted since you 'came back' it was me and my relationship that you felt the need to call unbalanced. The Gray Lady posted it for me. Thanks.

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I've actually thought a lot about who had it harder and truth be told...for us, it's pretty equal. I have a really difficult time articulating my feelings sometimes. But I will say this, you sound really angry henryd, and saying that what I have can't possibly be satisfying is kind of weird. It almost sounds crazier than you try to make me seem. I told you in my story all the anger I felt in the past, I just don't feel it anymore. We fit together really well, we really do.

You need to stop asking people to convince you of anything. Everyone gets to decide for themselves what frequency is comfortable. That's all you need to know...decide for yourself dude.

My response wasn't meant as personal. And I apologize for that. I should have started a new thread rather than replied to the one you started.

This idea of compromise between sexuals and asexuals comes up on many of the posts here, and it's this general idea, that if asexuals agree to give their partners pleasure once in a while it's a compromise, which I object to.

I see that as just the decent thing for the asexual person to do, a starting point, not a resolution to what is a very big problem.

I'm not asking anyone to convince me anything. I thought the purpose of such a board was discuss these issues and I'm just discussing.

I sincerely wish only the best for you.

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Prismatangle

You are taking this completely out of context. We are not talking about sexual assault, or forcing anyone to do anything, we are talking about a loving relationship between two people, where the person who has no sex drive or desire is willing to give sexual pleasure to the person who does because he/she loves them.

It sounds like you are assuming all asexuals are repulsed by sex and equate it with torture. Obviously if your partner is repulsed by sex then everything I'm saying goes out the window.

I am not assuming any such thing. (You might want to read my blog to get an idea of who I am and where I'm coming from, btw; it's linked in my signature. It would certainly keep you from assuming I think all asexuals are repulsed by sex!) You have not made it clear in your posts that you aren't referring to a partner who is being pressured to "just" have sex because you assume it isn't that big of a deal to have sex you don't want. I don't understand your assumption that a person has to be repulsed by sex/equate it with torture to feel traumatized by sex that they didn't want and were pressured into. I assure you, that is not the case.

Saying that it's "just" doing something you don't want to do, and that it's like giving a back massage is... egregious, frankly. Sex and back massages are really not comparable, in terms of invasiveness. It's a much bigger deal than that, even if you don't feel traumatized by it. If you're having sex you don't want, that's always a problem. I advocate a standard of consent that is much higher than that, which is often called "enthusiastic consent." The wording is somewhat problematic for asexual people, so I prefer to call it "good consent." The things you have described so far fall very far short of that standard.

Even in a loving relationship, there can still be too much pressure for someone to have sex, and that is not okay.

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@henryd...It's fine, and thanks for finally saying something to me in regards to this. You had said something a bit earlier about being convinced, that's why I said that.

For us, after 25 years of conflict and running the gamut of 'options' available to mixed couples, it is totally resolved for us in this manner. Perhaps because my husband is skilled at it is why it works for us. I also think it works because I know he loves me. We have done a fair amount of discussing it this past year as well and both just feel so much better about it all.

If a compromise doesn't work for you, it just doesn't. The reason it comes up on AVEN is because it is a legitimate option.

I never meant to imply this board wasn't for discussion as I most certainly realize it is. The thing is this...if something works for someone but it won't work for you, that doesn't make it a non something to the one for whom it does work.

I'm sorry if I was rude before when I called you dude.

Thanks Gray Lady for describing in just a few words how this works...the pressure issue is huge.

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I am not assuming any such thing. (You might want to read my blog to get an idea of who I am and where I'm coming from, btw; it's linked in my signature. It would certainly keep you from assuming I think all asexuals are repulsed by sex!) You have not made it clear in your posts that you aren't referring to a partner who is being pressured to "just" have sex because you assume it isn't that big of a deal to have sex you don't want. I don't understand your assumption that a person has to be repulsed by sex/equate it with torture to feel traumatized by sex that they didn't want and were pressured into. I assure you, that is not the case.

I'm not talking about a person having sex "that they didn't want and were pressured into."

The context of the conversation is a compromise where someone who doesn't like sex is doing it for their partner's sake. You are the one who is introducing all these assumptions out of thin air about the person being coerced or pressured. I'm making the sensible assumption that it is an agreement between two people who are adults who can have a conversation and come to a mutual agreement.

Saying that it's "just" doing something you don't want to do, and that it's like giving a back massage is... egregious, frankly. Sex and back massages are really not comparable, in terms of invasiveness. It's a much bigger deal than that, even if you don't feel traumatized by it. If you're having sex you don't want, that's always a problem. I advocate a standard of consent that is much higher than that, which is often called "enthusiastic consent." The wording is somewhat problematic for asexual people, so I prefer to call it "good consent." The things you have described so far fall very far short of that standard.

Even in a loving relationship, there can still be too much pressure for someone to have sex, and that is not okay.

I agree that in a loving relationship there can be too much pressure for someone to have sex. There's a very easy solution to that. You say no or you tell the person to stop.

Asking for sex is not putting "too much pressure" on someone. Saying it's 'not a big deal' or 'like a massage' is not putting "too much pressure" on someone. They can disagree and say it isn't like a massage.

The person who doesn't want the sex has a brain and can say no.

It's seems like you are trying to place all these rules around what you are allowed and not allowed to say. I tend to believe in communicating openly with my partner and I trust my partner is going to tell me how she feels, including if she feels I'm putting too much pressure on her.

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sexualwithasexual

I will say that the complicated power dynamics that some relationships, even the healthiest, most loving ones, can make for some murkiness in sexual yes's and no's. What one agrees to do to keep their partner happy, to keep their partner from leaving them, CAN wreck havoc that they may only realize some time in the future. If you've ever been sexually abused by a loved one, you'd understand. Basically, you do things they want you to do, as you want to keep them loving you. It can, as stated here already, be very, very traumatizing, and I'm not saying that any of us are doing that, but it's why you're going to get a reaction if you just kind of throw out ideas about sexual responsibility here lightly..

The other issue for sexuals in relationships with asexuals, at least for me before I understood my partner's asexuality, is that we can begin to feel like we are sexual predators. It's almost subliminal, yet I became VERY sensitive to this issue.

But also, I really can relate to HenryD on many things he's said. I think things stated here were said with some assumptions on his part (that we'd understand that both partners will fully on board with consenting to this mixed relationship sex) but I get the anger and frustration and feelings of being the partner getting the very shortest, unfair end of the stick. I no longer see it that way. But it took me quite some time to see what my asexual partner was going through. I tried to explain that, Henry, on another thread. As important as sex is to human happiness for you, I'd bet a large sum that feeling inadequate is a hugh issue your partner deals with daily, and has made her pretty unhappy.

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I will say that the complicated power dynamics that some relationships, even the healthiest, most loving ones, can make for some murkiness in sexual yes's and no's. What one agrees to do to keep their partner happy, to keep their partner from leaving them, CAN wreck havoc that they may only realize some time in the future. If you've ever been sexually abused by a loved one, you'd understand. Basically, you do things they want you to do, as you want to keep them loving you. It can, as stated here already, be very, very traumatizing, and I'm not saying that any of us are doing that, but it's why you're going to get a reaction if you just kind of throw out ideas about sexual responsibility here lightly..

I completely get what you are saying. I can see how traumatizing doing something sexual against your will, just to please someone, can be traumatizing. And on the other end of that, there's not a lot of pleasure in sex with someone who isn't enjoying it. And I get the predator thing too. That all makes perfect sense.

I was definitely referring to a situation where that dynamic WAS NOT in play and the asexual partner took on the role of doing things to please their partner willingly, without coercion. I assumed that was understood given we were talking about a mutually agreed upon compromise between two people.

Now that I know how sensitive some folks are about this topic, if it comes up again, I'll be sure to make the very clear.

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Our compromise consists basically of this:

  • sex twice a month. we started with once, and just recently changed it to twice
  • Tom does the initiating and chooses when
  • making out only on occasion

(I'm back)

I don't like this implication that sexuals in mixed relationships should be satisfied because their partners agree to get them off now and then.

Getting your partners off now an then is the least asexuals should be doing to compensate for depriving their partner of something so essential to human happiness.

This "compromise" seems highly unbalanced.

The asexual just has to put in a couple of hours work a month doing something they don't want to do be doing. And what do sexuals get out of this "compromise?" A little bit of physical relief now and then, but what they don't get is any of the emotional-sexual-joy that only comes from a healthy sexual relationship with someone you care deeply about.

I've been living this compromise for many years and while it's better than nothing at all, it's far from a solution to the problem.

This was your original post yesterday and I did try to respond to it in the context you just mentioned. As it is my husband's and my compromise we never in this story implied that YOU or anyone else should or would be satisfied with this arrangement, but that we are both happy with it.

You actually implied that I must be asexual myself if I find this compromise balanced. For us it is balanced, and no, I am most definitely not asexual.

I think I stated it once before in this thread and will again, I do get emotional sexual joy that only comes from a healthy sexual relationship with someone I care deeply about. I spoke of pressure in our story as being crippling to the relationship, and frankly speaking, acting all hurt because you're not getting the frequency you want is a passive form of pressure...believe it or not.

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This was your original post yesterday and I did try to respond to it in the context you just mentioned. As it is my husband's and my compromise we never in this story implied that YOU or anyone else should or would be satisfied with this arrangement, but that we are both happy with it.

You actually implied that I must be asexual myself if I find this compromise balanced. For us it is balanced, and no, I am most definitely not asexual.

I think I stated it once before in this thread and will again, I do get emotional sexual joy that only comes from a healthy sexual relationship with someone I care deeply about. I spoke of pressure in our story as being crippling to the relationship, and frankly speaking, acting all hurt because you're not getting the frequency you want is a passive form of pressure...believe it or not.

It's great if it works for you. I'm speaking from my own perspective. I've been living with a similar compromise for years and while it's definitely better than nothing, it isn't even close to ideal.

I'd be curious to hear how this is working for you a year from now. Right now it's a great improvement on what came before. It may very well be possible for sexuals to find fulfillment with such as arrangement -- especially when considering the alternatives.

Look, lots of sexuals lead sexless happy lives. Just look at all the single people out there.

And in truth, a lot of it is based on your expectations. If I didn't have great sexual relationships before I met my wife, I may be content with what I have now and not even know how much better it can be.

(not that I'm saying that's your situation)

But my main point, which I make for other sexuals in my situation, not you, is that I don't think we should be looking at pity sex from our asexual partners once or twice a month as the answer to our problems. I see that as just the minimum an asexual partner can do (assuming they are not pressured, coerced, or repulsed, etc).

For sexuals in this situation, I would definitely recommend couples counseling. And I think we need to accept that fact that there might not be a workable solution and a separation may be the right answer.

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I will say that the complicated power dynamics that some relationships, even the healthiest, most loving ones, can make for some murkiness in sexual yes's and no's. What one agrees to do to keep their partner happy, to keep their partner from leaving them, CAN wreck havoc that they may only realize some time in the future. If you've ever been sexually abused by a loved one, you'd understand. Basically, you do things they want you to do, as you want to keep them loving you. It can, as stated here already, be very, very traumatizing, and I'm not saying that any of us are doing that, but it's why you're going to get a reaction if you just kind of throw out ideas about sexual responsibility here lightly..

The other issue for sexuals in relationships with asexuals, at least for me before I understood my partner's asexuality, is that we can begin to feel like we are sexual predators. It's almost subliminal, yet I became VERY sensitive to this issue.

The sexual predator thing is one of the reasons communication is soooo important. I personally take it too far the other way. My partner's always telling me to stop being such a scaredy cat. I'll pick up my hand to touch her and then set it right back down and it drives her crazy! But I don't want to do anything she doesn't want me to do... but when she sees signs of it, I think it makes her realize that I'm struggling with this with a frequency and on a level she's not usually aware of. It's not just sex, it's everything. When I can't just lean over and kiss her on the couch, or when I can't jump on her when she's getting dressed on the edge of the bed... it's all the time.

But anyway, I digress. If a sexual finds out that their partner has been dreading their sexual interactions, that can make the sexual partner feel like an abuser, and that can make the sexual partner sad, depressed, or even mad... I wasn't mad, but I was upset that i was put in the position of abuser. I would have preferred she just tell me how she felt. Of course my partner doesn't see me as an abuser at all... but I love her and I don't want her to do anything she doesn't want to do, so when I found out that she had, it really upset me.

But my main point, which I make for other sexuals in my situation, not you, is that I don't think we should be looking at pity sex from our asexual partners once or twice a month as the answer to our problems. I see that as just the minimum an asexual partner can do (assuming they are not pressured, coerced, or repulsed, etc).

It concerns me the way you talk about relationships. Between "the minimum an asexual partner can do" and all the talk about "fairness", it seems you think relationships are like a business contract. They're not. They're just two people living their lives together. You seem to think she's obligated to do things for you even if she doesn't want to, based on this contract called a relationship... and I disagree. Your wife isn't obligated to have sex with you. She should certainly be aware that not having sex is an issue, but that doesn't mean she has to do it. A marriage isn't a job.... there isn't a job description and a list of duties that you are required to perform. You are just you, and if the other person decides they no longer like it, they are free to leave. Yes, some compromise is necessary to maintain a functional relationship (compromises about everything... who does the dishes, who takes the dog out, etc), but those compromises are mutually agreed upon to make things easier for both parties.

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No, I don't think all asexuals can be "conditioned to have sexual relationships," and the idea of doing such a thing is incredibly creepy. Nobody should ever have to be "conditioned to" have sexual relationships.

Of course they can. Anyone can be conditioned to do anything. How is it creepy? Here, let's play the game with me. I could be conditioned to eat nothing but dirt, I could be conditioned to stick carrots up my butt every day, I could be conditioned to sleep all day and wake all night... that's not creepy. That's just life.

That bought a smile to my face, so true as well. For me, it was peer pressure conditioning.

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Gosh, reading all of this makes me feel so many things. I really appreciated this story being shared. Some include:

- Some of the ways in which Henry feels (some, not all) I am experiencing myself. I'm an angry "sexual". And thank goodness. I think it's a perfectly healthy reaction. I wouldn't be on here if I wasn't motivated to some extent by anger and grief and loss.

- I have conditioned myself to not have sex. Alongside that is it's own form of trauma. Choosing not to have sex can be traumatic. I feel like I'll need help unpacking and sorting through this sometime in the near future. And if we're talking about trauma, it becomes further complicated if we choose to avoid building the skills to be able to confront it. I don't see any point in getting into that.

- I feel absolutely terrible being transparent about how I feel as though my relationship will likely not survive.I feel like I'm pissing my misery down on others who are managing to find a balance of compromise. Obviously, this is a place that doesn't cater to the experiences of "sexuals". Sometimes it feels very combative on here.

- I hate the term "sexuals". I feel similarly about the term "homosexual". I cringe every single time I read "sexual". I reject this with all of my being.

I'm going to re-read Becoming an Ally. There is work on both sides to understand each other.

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The issue of the word "sexual" has been debated many times. No one really likes it but there aren't better options that will be adopted by the majority (in this case, the majority being asexuals).

Here's a link to a poll and discussion about it.

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Thanks for popping over to this thread QueerTO. I realize henryd is angry, but I also feel he wants me to be angry again, and it just isn't going to happen, or at the very least he wants me to say this compromise stuff really doesn't work.

Well, actually it has been about a year now, pretty sure I'm ok with our arrangement...and it doesn't include pity sex of any kind. Caring in all kinds of ways for a loved one is called loving more often than pity, although I guess that might depend on who you're talking to. I kind of hate calling what we have pity sex, a lot more than I do referring to myself as sexual. But whatever.

I don't know how long you've been married henryd, but we are looking at 26 years next month, and if I'm fortunate, maybe we'll see 66!!!

And yes, QueerTO conditioning yourself to not have sex would be traumatic...I remember considering and even trying to do that over the years. The longest I remember ever going without was six months.

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Congratulations on 26 years together. That's pretty incredible in any respect. I genuinely mean that. I do find the term "sexual" to be upsetting as well as a bit ridiculous. Then again, sometimes I find the alphabet soup to be ridiculous!(last check here in Toronto it's LGBTTTIQQTSA*). I personally find "sexual" to be denigrating in the context that I'm perceiving it in. I'll work on feeling differently over time.

Pity sex is perhaps a derogatory way to refer to a feeling Henry might be experiencing himself. I know that I`m struggling with discussions of how my partner and I can possibly find ways to reach a middle ground and I`ve been guilty of feeling this way as well. Mind you, I'm not having ANY sex at the moment and so it naturally spills over into feelings of anger, and statements that are hurtful. What you have is much deeper and impossible for others to understand. Henry should not refer to what you have in such a thoughtless way. The two of you are at very different places along this continuum.

Much like someone else said, we're all very different in terms of relationships, selves, and partners. What works for some doesn't work for others. The compromise stuff maybe doesn't work for him. I suspect that the compromise stuff won't work for me either.

I can appreciate that henry is angry, however. Though perhaps it would be best positioned in his own thread where he could receive some validation from others instead of here where you shared such a fantastic story.

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sexualwithasexual

I feel pretty sex-positive, even though I live like a nun. It's kinda fun to be a "sexual" here and nothing else. It's where i get to have a "sex" life - Hah!

I'd think "asexual" would feel worse. My partner has cringed, but she's now identifying herself that way in our conversations.

I don't think most ace partners (is ace better?) would partake in "pity" sex. Everyone has differing reasons for having sex and obviously everyone feel different things during sex.

As my partner enjoys none of it, we just don't have sex. I don't think I'd be able to enjoy any of it now that I know she doesn't. It's great that many here do enjoy it and feel fulfilled. But many others don't and I think that's important to be able to talk about. I respect those here that can stay in their relationships because of the "compromise" sex they have. It's just not for everyone, and I fall on the HenryD spectrum side on this. Not only would it not be fulfilling, it just would not be something I'd do. To me it would feel like going to a prostitute. I don't mean that personally for anyone reading this. Everyone's different.

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Not only would it not be fulfilling, it just would not be something I'd do. To me it would feel like going to a prostitute.

Again, all of our partners are different. If it felt like going to a prostitute, I wouldn't like to do it either. My partner does enjoy the sex we have. If we had it more often I don't think she would, which is why we don't have it more often. I think there's some confusion about what a compromise is... as far as I know, no one who "compromises" (and I'm including the asexuals on here like WTF and Bookcase) does it against their will or without enjoyment. That wouldn't be a compromise, that would be... I don't know what that would be. Awful.

In other words, it's not like you and Henry feel differently than, say, Lady Girl and I. It's just that we have different circumstances. We can compromise because our partners do genuinely enjoy sex under certain conditions. Yours don't. When we do have sex, it's different than when (if) you guys had sex. If my sex life was like yours I'd feel the same way you do, I'm sure.

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Midnight Lady

It concerns me the way you talk about relationships. Between "the minimum an asexual partner can do" and all the talk about "fairness", it seems you think relationships are like a business contract. They're not. They're just two people living their lives together. You seem to think she's obligated to do things for you even if she doesn't want to, based on this contract called a relationship... and I disagree. Your wife isn't obligated to have sex with you. She should certainly be aware that not having sex is an issue, but that doesn't mean she has to do it. A marriage isn't a job.... there isn't a job description and a list of duties that you are required to perform. You are just you, and if the other person decides they no longer like it, they are free to leave. Yes, some compromise is necessary to maintain a functional relationship (compromises about everything... who does the dishes, who takes the dog out, etc), but those compromises are mutually agreed upon to make things easier for both parties.

As I am growing older, popping from relationship into relationship, I am coming closer and closer to this philosophy... It can be hard to accept it, maybe. But one needs to understand that if to put another person in the position of an obligated party, then the OTHER person also has this right. And who will decide who has more rights in this compromise? Fair/Unfair, but both parties have equal rights. Therefore, Skull is right: it is just 2 people living their lives together. The only hope is that 2 people will be open-minded enough to reach the compromise which will satisfy/dissatisfy both parties equally. If one person starts feeling that the whole unfairness is only on this one person, and the other person gets everything, then that is where the whole problem starts. I myself always say: "As soon as someone starts saying things like "I love you more, I care for you more, I do everything for you, I give you more than I get!", then these relations are in a big trouble. Even more, for me, personally, it is a sign that the relationship is 98% over".

However, Lady Girl's story has so much positivity! It shows that mature people can work on everything when they want to. It is so inspiring to know this today, when so many people will break up as soon as the slightest problem appears between them! I really like to read such stories on AVEN exactly because they are REAL! It is not a Hollywood fairytale - it is something real humans can do if they want to and if they are capable of it. :)

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sexualwithasexual

Not only would it not be fulfilling, it just would not be something I'd do. To me it would feel like going to a prostitute.

Again, all of our partners are different. If it felt like going to a prostitute, I wouldn't like to do it either. My partner does enjoy the sex we have. If we had it more often I don't think she would, which is why we don't have it more often. I think there's some confusion about what a compromise is... as far as I know, no one who "compromises" (and I'm including the asexuals on here like WTF and Bookcase) does it against their will or without enjoyment. That wouldn't be a compromise, that would be... I don't know what that would be. Awful.

In other words, it's not like you and Henry feel differently than, say, Lady Girl and I. It's just that we have different circumstances. We can compromise because our partners do genuinely enjoy sex under certain conditions. Yours don't. When we do have sex, it's different than when (if) you guys had sex. If my sex life was like yours I'd feel the same way you do, I'm sure.

True.

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Vampyremage

There is something that I don't understand. Sexual/asexual relationships take a lot of work, I think that much is clear by this thread and many others. But, if you (not referring to Lady Girl specifically here) are so unhappy with the sexual aspect of the relationship that it is causing you this much grief and this much anger, why are you still in the relationship at all?

I don't mean to be insensitive here, but relationships are about the happiness of both parties involved and if all reasonable steps have taken to ensure that happiness, including any sort of compromise that seems reasonable and it still hasn't worked, why are you still with each other?

The last relationship I was in was with a sexual and it was during the time I realized I was asexual. It was an incredibly stressful relationship and a big part of that stress was due to my emerging understanding of my own asexuality. We tried what we could to make it work and eventually I ended it because, in the end, it was too much for me to deal with and despite caring about him a lot, it just wasn't the relationship I wanted.

The fact that I'm on the asexual side of the equation here doesn't make any difference to the point I'm trying to make. If, after all reasonable measures and compromises are attempted, one or both parties are still unhappy then end it. No amount of complaining about the unfairness of the situation is going to change the situation unless you actually take steps to change the situation. Ending a relationship can be a frightening and stressful thing all on its own, but if you're unhappy about something that's not likely to ever change, then why are you still there torturing yourself?

About the suggestions to cheat that keep cropping up, personally I don't think that's an acceptable solution at all. If you love someone you don't cheat, no matter the circumstances. Such a betrayal of trust is a horrible thing that should never be done to the people you love. An open or polyamerous relationship, with full support of your partner, is a completely different situation with completely different morals attached to it, but cheating is wrong pure and simple. Everyone has needs in a relationship, be they sexual or otherwise. If one of those needs isn't being met, sexual or otherwise, then the solution is to talk and see if you can get that need met. In the end, if its an important need and talking doesn't work, then its time to think about ending things and not time to think about cheating on your partner.

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Vampyremage

Maybe its not simple but if we're talking about fairness, then its also not fair to put the blame on the asexual partner or assume that its easier for the asexual partner than it is for the sexual partner. Relationships are about two people and the needs of both are of equal importance. The resonsibility to resolve or get around issues lies with both partners equally. When issues can't be resolved its usually both parties who contribute to that fact. Breaking up might not be an easy or simple decision to make, but the decision not to cheat should be.

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It might not be easy, but it is simple. If you're not happy and the circumstances aren't going to change to make you happy, you leave. Easy? no. simple? Yes.

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Maybe its not simple but if we're talking about fairness, then its also not fair to put the blame on the asexual partner or assume that its easier for the asexual partner than it is for the sexual partner. Relationships are about two people and the needs of both are of equal importance. The resonsibility to resolve or get around issues lies with both partners equally. When issues can't be resolved its usually both parties who contribute to that fact.

I'm glad you stopped by Vamp! You have just mentioned something so very important that has been bothering me to no end...this ridiculous assumption that the asexual has it so much easier in the relationship. The fact that they don't have it any easier and I know this is a big part of the reason I think we were able to come to a comfortable and easy compromise. Granted, it didn't happen overnight, and I have hit a few bumps along the way (as some of you know thru PM's). Getting this support and much valued insight has made all the difference to me and how I view and feel about having an asexual spouse.

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sexualwithasexual

That's how it is for us - better than all the possible alternatives.

Much better than all the possible alternatives, in fact.

It would be pretty shitty to have something as good as we have and spend all day bitching about the one thing that's not perfect, or at least it would be pretty large sense of perspective failure. Others may not have it as good in other departments, or may not have common compromise grounds, so their mileage may vary, naturally.

This is why it's not so simple.

Yes, not having the sex life you would see as an ideal one is a bummer and can cause some unhappiness (or worse).. but once you have AVEN, and the realizations that many of us in mixed relationships have had about our partners, it's very difficult to just walk away. It's very difficult (I think) for both parties in mixed relationships to walk away over sex. (Well, maybe not for some actually, but for the ones on AVEN it seems that way). If there are other problems, then it might be a different story, but I think LG, Skulls, Olivier and I, have felt that our relationships are too good to just walk away from. Now Vamps may have had a different experience and she made the right decision. But each of us makes our own choice in this. If we are only supported when we come on AVEN to talk about how wonderful our lives with our asexual partners are, and never discuss the hard parts, some might shy away from AVEN.

I went back thru all the posts on this thread to find the cheating aspect, and couldn't find it. (maybe I overlooked it?) But I did see some that used disturbing words in reference to aces in mixed relationships: "deprive" and "compensate". To deprive would mean to willingly withhold something, and that's not my experience ever. In fact, quite the opposite. I'm pretty sure most of my partner's sexual activity was done out of a generous, caring place. And then the "compensation" idea is also weird as it's like a transaction, as was pointed out on a different thread.

I respect supporting those who want to split up over all of this, but I also want to be able to talk about the hard times without being told that we should have broken up long ago. It makes me feel like I'm weak or something for deciding to stay. I wouldn't stay if I didn't want to. And that's the same for my ace partner. We are staying together for reasons that extend well beyond the mis-match of our sexual orientations. (And both my partner and I are open to breaking up, we just don't seem to want to! It can be very complicated.)

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