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Sex change for androgynes


Raccoonwolf

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Raccoonwolf

(Forgive my bad handling of terms, you can correct me in a comment and I'll fix it. ^^)

So, there are those of us who feel they're androgynous for their mind, rather than a man or woman. Are there any examples of people like that going through some operations to feel better about their body (for example breast reduction), or does everyone just live like they are?

Do you think it's natural at all that people who feel that way exist? After all there is no a sex such as "androgyne" in the nature (not counting the people born with in-between genitals).

Should the people who feel they're androgynous have the chance to have operations for fixing their body?

Personally I might be happier without my breasts. My ideal body image would be flat chest, but maybe wide hips still. Definitely no penis, the thought of one makes me feel uncomfortable. And I would love a deeper voice. I hate mine the way it is now.

The thing is, I don't think I would have the chance to take testosteron to lower my voice or have a breast reduction surgery. Or maybe the latter, but I might not go for it. I've seen pictures of the scars and they're not pretty, and it would cost a hell lot.

What do you people feel about this?

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Vampyremage

This is an interesting question and one which, unfortunately, I don't have an answer for. I identify as agendered bordering on neutrois but I'm not too sure what, in the way of conventional surgery or medicine, can really be done about it. My voice isn't terribly high and my breasts are very small all ready, so neither of those two things are of particular concern for me. Actually, I'm rather fortunate in the fact that my physical body, aside from being very small boned, isn't particularly feminine overall. I have small A cup breasts and am not very curvy, which I am rather thankful for.

My face is more feminine, but I have done things to help make it more androgenous in appearance. Piercings, especially large gauge piercings, I have found to be fantastic for that, especially in combination with a full head of dreadlocks. Recently I got subdermal horns as well which, while rather small right now, I can see furthering my androgenous appearance once I get larger horns in. They aren't masculine or feminine, per say, but they change the contours of the face significantly and the end result, I think, is a more gender neutral appearance. Of course this isn't going to be something most people would consider.

In other ways I've also used body modification to further a more androgynous appearance. Most of my tattoos are very masculine in nature, demons and dark images that just aren't very feminine. I think they provide a nice contrast to the more feminine bone structure of my body.

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Member33070
So, there are those of us who feel they're androgynous for their mind, rather than a man or woman. Are there any examples of people like that going through some operations to feel better about their body (for example breast reduction), or does everyone just live like they are?

Yes, people do get surgery. There was a blog somewhere that I stumbled across at one point of a neutrois person (biologically originally female) who had successfully had surgery to become gender-neutral.

It consisted of breast removal for sure, but I'm not sure if xe opted for "downstairs" nullification as well. Such a process probably exists by way of removing certain bits. Depending on what all is removed internally, you would need certain bits externally for everything to work (I don't think one could be "sewn shut" if the uterus was still functioning, for example). I think I read somewhere about someone being sewn shut with like, a tube inserted to pee out of after a total hysterectomy...*can't remember what I've read*

Anyway, the blog, I believe it was here: http://neutrois.wordpress.com/

top surgery: http://neutrois.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/reader-ramblings-the-process-of-getting-top-surgery/

There was a bit more but I'm having trouble finding it.

A lot of bio-femmes (gah I love that term) who want to be neutrois simply follow tricks that FTM's use, such as binding, etc.

Since neutrois folks don't really exist in nature (I think?! :blink: Well, in mass numbers anyway), it's sort of up to you to figure out how you would look as a neutral person.

Do you think it's natural at all that people who feel that way exist?

Yuh-huh. I'm one of them. Well, sort of. I can be. I fluctuate sometimes to where the thought of sex sounds okay and I'd need parts for that. There have been times that I've thought that having a totally smooth downstairs would be awesome. And since I have giant melons (38DDD/38F) I get sick of them a lot and sometimes wish they would poof away.

For me though, my interpretation of neutrois is different...I want to take the most feminine and most manly aspects I can think of and smoosh them together for myself. In my mind, I call it "Amazon"...

I want to look kind of like this girl except with my natural hair color, natural pasty ass skin color (or perhaps a not-so-orange tan) and my tattoos wouldn't look like that. Also, preferably in more...rock attire instead of beach attire.

muscle_woman_with_crazy_abs_biceps.jpg

Should the people who feel they're androgynous have the chance to have operations for fixing their body?

I don't see why not, if FTM's and MTF's exist all fine and well, why shouldn't someone who feels fully neutrois have that option? The only downside I can think of is that someone would say, "well, what about people who believe in other weird made-up genders and believe they need a penis on their forehead or something, this is just opening the floodgates, blah blah blah..." That's all I can think of.

And acceptance for the person who gets it done. Some places (like my university) have gender-neutral options on forms (to an almost annoying extent, in my opinion - it's like 'Biological Gender', 'Gender you identify as', 'Gender you would like to be referred to as', 'Gender transitioned to, if applicable' (in some nicer way, can't remember the wording on that last one)"

And bathrooms. I happen to live in a really liberal town where gender-neutral bathrooms are popping up everywhere (or places will put signs on the pre-existing bathrooms like, "Bathroom with urinals" and "Bathroom without urinals", lol). But a lot of places don't have that. Which bathroom would you go in as a neutral person? How would people interpret you initially? What happens if a waiter calls you "Ma'am" or "Sir"??!

That's the main issue in my head and why I probably won't ever transition, I couldn't deal with all that mess.

Good luck ^_^

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never odd or even

i would love to wipe clean the biological gender slate clean and start afresh, alas i cannot.

but yes, in short, i would.

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I was opting for halfway Facial Feminization, and possibly some limted doses of hormones...but it doesn't matter to me what I have down there

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Do you think it's natural at all that people who feel that way exist? After all there is no a sex such as "androgyne" in the nature (not counting the people born with in-between genitals).

Should the people who feel they're androgynous have the chance to have operations for fixing their body?

I think it's "natural" in the sense that it can occur, and it's nothing bad in my opinion (but I might be prejudiced since I also feel that way...)

There's a term for people who wish to be physically neutral, "neutrois".

Since neutrois folks don't really exist in nature (I think?! :blink: Well, in mass numbers anyway), it's sort of up to you to figure out how you would look as a neutral person.

There are people who were born with a body that cannot be clearly defined as female or male (intersex), so it'd be wrong to say it does not exist in nature. But it is seen as a genetic defect, and those persons are forced to adapt to either female or male identity, somtimes/often accompanied by operations. Or rather the parents are forced to decide, since that happens at a very early age, so those persons can't decide themselves... That's why their existence is kind of eradicated, since they have to grow up as either female or male and take on a gender (or rather sex) to fit into society...

It consisted of breast removal for sure, but I'm not sure if xe opted for "downstairs" nullification as well. Such a process probably exists by way of removing certain bits. Depending on what all is removed internally, you would need certain bits externally for everything to work (I don't think one could be "sewn shut" if the uterus was still functioning, for example). I think I read somewhere about someone being sewn shut with like, a tube inserted to pee out of after a total hysterectomy...*can't remember what I've read*

I don't know if I understood that completely...

According to what I know, a person that is biologically female "downstairs" pees out of a different "hole" than where the uterus is connected to...? ^^""" So there wouldn't be a need to insert a tube if only the specifically female organs are removed, or am I wrong...?

(Not that I was interested in a complete removal "downstairs", I'd just like to understand that...)

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I identify as a cisgender female for the sake of simplicity and convenience, though I recognize most of my behavioral traits fall under the genderqueer spectrum, so... I hope my contribution to the topic will be somewhat useful. :lol:

Basically, I have accepted my biological identity as a female and I'm fine living in a female body. I dislike being too feminine and I generally wear neutral clothes, like casual or sportswear - no skirts nor make up for me. While people can definitely tell I am female by my looks (and I never do anything to hide it), they surely don't get the typical girly girl vibe, considering my bodily structure is also quite big for a girl about to turn 19 (I have big bones and I'm 5'8" tall) and I'm not that curvy either, which is another trait of my body I like.

Speaking of my gender behavior... well, it's adaptable. I can behave like a girl in presence of girls, and like a boy in presence of boys. Or just neutral in other situations. Gender is like a social play for me, not something intrinsic to my own nature.

So, back to the topic: I wouldn't mind breast removal, since I see no purpose for my breasts after all. I probably wouldn't opt for the surgery "down there" because I know it's much easier to keep basic body functions working without it. I'm not planning on getting breast removal though, since it costs too much right now and overall I don't really feel the need for it.

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Member33070

Sorry, didn't explain myself too well and I'll fix that now.

Since neutrois folks don't really exist in nature (I think?! :blink: Well, in mass numbers anyway), it's sort of up to you to figure out how you would look as a neutral person.

There are people who were born with a body that cannot be clearly defined as female or male (intersex), so it'd be wrong to say it does not exist in nature. But it is seen as a genetic defect, and those persons are forced to adapt to either female or male identity, somtimes/often accompanied by operations. Or rather the parents are forced to decide, since that happens at a very early age, so those persons can't decide themselves... That's why their existence is kind of eradicated, since they have to grow up as either female or male and take on a gender (or rather sex) to fit into society...

I meant people who look like Barbie dolls downstairs (totally smooth). Intersex has both, right? Some form of penis as well as some form of vagina? *looks up* Seems it can be fully developed of both ("True hermaphroditism") or an in-between ("Ambiguous genitalia") but not totally smooth. *shrug* Whatever definition works for you.

I've never heard of someone having neither gender. The smooth downstairs - that's what I think of when I think neutral gender.

Even though I went on to say that I like a mixture of both genders in my own personal idea of how "neutrois" works for me. I should point out that's not a typical definition of "neutrois" at all.

Still, they don't really exist in mass numbers so it's hard to figure out the place in the world, the role in society...which is unfortunate. A lot of people don't know what to do with an "in-between" gender.

It consisted of breast removal for sure, but I'm not sure if xe opted for "downstairs" nullification as well. Such a process probably exists by way of removing certain bits. Depending on what all is removed internally, you would need certain bits externally for everything to work (I don't think one could be "sewn shut" if the uterus was still functioning, for example). I think I read somewhere about someone being sewn shut with like, a tube inserted to pee out of after a total hysterectomy...*can't remember what I've read*

I don't know if I understood that completely...

According to what I know, a person that is biologically female "downstairs" pees out of a different "hole" than where the uterus is connected to...? ^^""" So there wouldn't be a need to insert a tube if only the specifically female organs are removed, or am I wrong...?

(Not that I was interested in a complete removal "downstairs", I'd just like to understand that...)

Some females wish to have that entire area downstairs sewn shut. Yes, we pee out of a separate hole than the uterus and such is in, but sewing the vagina shut all the way down also blocks off the hole for the bladder. It's not in the same place as the vagina but it is protected by the outer labia of the vagina. If one were to sew the outer labia shut (after all the internal organs are removed/nullified to prevent fluid buildup and such in there), it would also block off the bladder.

Really graphic but explanatory pictures here:

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=de&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=647&q=vagina+anatomy&gbv=2&oq=vagina+anatomy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=929l3359l0l3545l16l16l0l12l0l0l179l459l2.2l4

I believe I read somewhere about someone who sewed all of it shut except for a tube for where the bladder was. That's what I was referring to.

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Some females wish to have that entire area downstairs sewn shut. Yes, we pee out of a separate hole than the uterus and such is in, but sewing the vagina shut all the way down also blocks off the hole for the bladder. It's not in the same place as the vagina but it is protected by the outer labia of the vagina. If one were to sew the outer labia shut (after all the internal organs are removed/nullified to prevent fluid buildup and such in there), it would also block off the bladder.

Ah ok, I didn't know it would also be blocked off... Thanks for the explanation ^_^

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As far as I've heard, at least here in Finland some transgender people will go through the diagnostic process to get diagnosed as transsexuals, so that they can better "choose" what kind of treatments they have. I might actually be classified as one of them, even though I entered the process fully male-identified and only realised I was androgynous later on, after testosterone had already given me a rad voice.

I don't know about the legal issues concerning this, though. I've been meaning to ask around on forums on things like can I still get the mastectomy through this route if I reassume my female name etc.

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Raccoonwolf

This is interesting ^^

I wonder if neutrois people can be diagnosed too. And probably you can't be marked in official papers as androgynous, but does anyone know more about it?

Personally I'm okay with my body most of the times, but sometimes I feel annoyed and bad about it being so female. -.- I don't want to waste tons of money on breast reduction surgery, but don't feel quite right about myself either.

It seems my psychology teacher thought I was a transman XD When we talked of androgynous ways of dressing and I commented that I like to dress pretty androgynous, she asked "But you don't want to be a man?"

Finland is the ideal land for androgynes~ We don't have gender-specific words for "he" and "she" ^^ I bet it's a bit awkward for English-speaking people to try to find a gender-neutral word.

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Personally I might be happier without my breasts.

I feel really, 'just a little to the neutral side of female,' as best I can describe, but I would have breast reduction if I could. I would love to have very small breasts instead of the not-particularly-nice-shaped C-cup size I do have. Not extraordinarily large, thank goodness, but I would really like to have less chest than I do. Aside from generally getting in better shape, which for me will be diet and exercise choices, I think that's the only change I would really desire to make to my body.

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Nalle Neversure

I wonder if neutrois people can be diagnosed too. And probably you can't be marked in official papers as androgynous, but does anyone know more about it?

It is possible to be diagnosed with something else than mtf or ftm (can't remember the actual term) in Finland. But sadly, the "something else" diagnosis means that the person won't receive treatment (only mtf and ftm do). And neither is neutrois a possible gender/sex in official papers in Finland. Whole other thing is to manage to get diagnosis saying mtf or ftm (while really identifying as neutrois or similar) and deciding to only receive the "useful" treatments... That way it could be possible to reach the dream-body but papers would still say M or F.

-Nalle, Gender Mod (from Finland)

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Finland is the ideal land for androgynes~ We don't have gender-specific words for "he" and "she" ^^ I bet it's a bit awkward for English-speaking people to try to find a gender-neutral word.

Well, I'll agree with you that we have it nice with the pronouns (now disregarding the fact that our other official language does have gender-specific pronouns, and the few cuckoos who think we need to device gender-specific pronouns for Finnish), but otherwise, I wouldn't go very far with the "ideal". We can't really boast an abundance of gender-neutral names, so when someone has one, it's considered an anomaly. That I know of, there's no legal recognition of a "third gender" of any type, and at least where I've been living, there doesn't seem to be any kind of norm about having gender-neutral bathrooms etc. We also have stupid people like me who actually choose to complete some part of their education in English and thus gendered pronouns ahoy...

I do realise that we Finns have things far better than gender variants in many other countries, what with our stable society and whatnot, but calling it ideal for androgynes seems a bit over the top.

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Guest member25959

(Forgive my bad handling of terms, you can correct me in a comment and I'll fix it. ^^)

So, there are those of us who feel they're androgynous for their mind, rather than a man or woman. Are there any examples of people like that going through some operations to feel better about their body (for example breast reduction), or does everyone just live like they are?

Do you think it's natural at all that people who feel that way exist? After all there is no a sex such as "androgyne" in the nature (not counting the people born with in-between genitals).

Should the people who feel they're androgynous have the chance to have operations for fixing their body?

Personally I might be happier without my breasts. My ideal body image would be flat chest, but maybe wide hips still. Definitely no penis, the thought of one makes me feel uncomfortable. And I would love a deeper voice. I hate mine the way it is now.

The thing is, I don't think I would have the chance to take testosteron to lower my voice or have a breast reduction surgery. Or maybe the latter, but I might not go for it. I've seen pictures of the scars and they're not pretty, and it would cost a hell lot.

What do you people feel about this?

I know how you feel, I've gotten to the stage where I would prefer this. I have heard that psychiatrists will discourage such thoughts, especially when handling GID and a possible sex change, i can't remember where I heard this from though.

Also, changing your body is one stage, there's the the legal documentation. Some documentation has no 'Androgyne/neitehr' option from what I hear, passports and bank cards being examples (not sure about bank cards actually, I think it varies in other countries)

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Raccoonwolf

@Finland, yeah. ^^; I was mostly joking with the "ideal land". Especially nowadays with the Basic Finns encouraging conservative values. People aren't very acceptive of liberal ideas of gender where I live either. But I'm glad about the language. It's always awkward trying to write about androgynes in English.

Hm. I feel sorry for the neutrois ones who don't feel right with their bodies. I personally never payed much attention to my body, so it doesn't bother me.

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I have the fortune of being fairly flat chested. hopefully I'll stay this way. there are binders you can order. cosplay teaches you so much.... i'm just uncomfortable with the idea of surgery.

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